I'm very disturbed by the "all or nothing" attitude I am reading on this website and with most veggie/vegan/raw-foodist advocates.

The way people on this forum talk, those of us who enjoy cooked food or animal proteins would all be dead by the age of twenty. Yet, we are not. And there are people who eat steaks everyday who live very happily and often even healthily, to their 70's, 80's, even 100's. People who drink soda don't leak acid and Twinkies don't turn us into zombies. Fatties, maybe.

It is commonly believed that eating cooked meat directly benefited the evolution of our brains, it's large size, our ability to use tools and eventually develop technology like the computer I am typing this on. Did these benefits just go away? Have we evolved beyond the need for those complex proteins or cooked food stuffs?

And I understand that all 8 essential amino acids can be found in food combination (beans/rice) and specific fruits, nuts and vegetables, so animal proteins are not necessary to our diets. But we do have canine teeth specifically designed for tearing meat. Why would that be? And lest we forget the first food we eat, the best food for infants, is an animal protein - breastmilk. Granted, as adults we don't need to eat half as much protein as we are told by the industries pushing for more animal product consumption, but without the complex proteins (either in animal or vegetal form) we become malnourished.

But, it is also a fact that vegetarians (I include vegans in this category - no offense) have much higher rates of colon caner, while meat eaters have much higher rates of blood and stomach cancers. So eating vegetarian is not necessarily better in that respect.

Is a more vegetarian diet better for us? YOU BET!!! Should we all (except maybe those who lead the lifestyle of this website) eat more fruits and vegetables and more raw foods? ABSOLUTELY!!! Should we all take better care of ourselves and pay more attention to what we put in our bodies? WITHOUT A DOUBT!!! More exercise, more self care, more respect for our planet. YES, YES, YES!!!

I am on a path to leading a better, healthier lifestyle, which is why I went online to find some raw food veg recipes. But I'm not going to give up a delicious steak or Twinkie every now and again. Please stop demonizing peoples eating habits and maybe you'll convince more people to make changes for better health. And many of you need to stop punishing yourselves for "falling off [a] wagon" or "having cravings." Your cravings are your brain's way of telling you your diet is missing something, so stop denying yourselves and listen to your bodies. Therefore, I advocate EVERYTHING in moderation.

PS I have a degree in Anthropology and studied the cross-cultural health of children around the world so I do have a bit of a background on this subject.

The bait has been cast. Will there be any bites?....WY

i... must ..... resist ..... lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

liddld23

Quote

I'm very disturbed by the "all or nothing" attitude I am reading on this website and with most veggie/vegan/raw-foodist advocates.

I think you missed the point. For me the "all or nothing" is because my experience has shown me that if I open the door to cooked food it wants to move in. My raw % vs cooked % gets worse by the day and I feel myself slipping down the slippery slope toward the cliff where the "used to be raw" folks go. It is so much better to avoid cooked food then risk going back to where I was when S.A.D. Experience is a good teacher. I think many other raw food eaters have had similar experiences when they have cracked the door open to a little cooked food.

Lid if you are disturbed by the information here there are many places with likeminded people that you can go too, your opinions arent shared or appreciated by myself personally.

In eight years of reading this website i have never seen anyone say that you will die from eating meat by age 20, im not sure where you have got this fantasy information from lol. Calling overweight people fatties just shows your ignorant and insensitive side

just because things are commonly agreed upon doesnt mean they are right or correct. years ago scholars commonly agreed the world was flat

if you are going to cite facts that vegans/vegetarians have more incidence of colon cancer please cite the references you get these facts from

nobody is demonizing anything here and what makes you think you have the authority to advocate anything anyways lol

p.s. yer boowk lurning downt immprezz mee mutch !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Hey,

Tubby Joe here... I hate twinkies but have enjoyed a steak in my past. I might have had 1 or 2 steaks since 1/1/09 but I try to stay mainly with raw or cooked vegan foods because when I have my steak & potatoes, my waist tells me I'm growin' a spare tire & that tires my whole body out. lol

I try not to take life or myself too seriously but at 53 I know I need to make some lifestyle changes ( see Billy Mays, Farrah). I want to live to 120. While there are plenty of tubby Americans, there aren't many with a quality of life past 60 or so. The weight wears them down. That's just my humble opinion though.

And when was the last time anyone ate a green food that was 'enhanced' with antibiotics & growth hormones??

Yes WY... The bait has been cast! LOL! x


liddld23
Intriguing concept!

You absolutely know this to be true?


Love light health and happiness 2 u x

Moderation in everything???

Something worth thinking about, I suppose......

Let's start by setting the goal of achieving MODERATE good health. This ought to ensure a MODERATELY long life expectancy, right?

And what a relief to only have to worry about food tasting MODERATELY good. So much easier than making the effort to find the very best organic, fresh, ripe fragrant, luscious fruits and vegetables!

And doesn't every woman dream of being MODERATELY beautiful? Maybe every man also dreams of being MODERATELY attractive!

Wouldn't we all like to have a MODERATE amount of money? love? success? happiness? (not necessarily in that order!)

As long as my partner and I are MODERATELY in love with each other, it's all good, right?

And of course, I wish all my children to have MODERATE success in their lives, and to be MODERATELY happy. My heart is (moderately) bursting with all the MODERATE love I have for each of them. And of course, I will do my best to set a MODERATE example of how to be a MODERATELY good human being.

Luckily, if I get sick, it will only be a MODERATE incidence of cancer, or some other type of illness, but as far as the norm goes, something is bound to come along sooner or later. Or maybe I can become MODERATELY addicted to drugs or alcohol. Or maybe I will just be MODERATELY obese, or MODERATELY bi-polar.

Ya know, I don't think I have done very well at being moderate in my life.

On second though, I am not sure if I really want to. I don't always fulfill my "all or nothing" approach as quickly or easily as I would have hoped, but the intent is always there, and it feels great to have such promising goals.

Can you tell me again, what is wrong with being extreme? I think it's way more fun!

But don't get me wrong......

If I woke up tomorrow, and realized that the one and only key to my own personal happiness and self-actualization was to eat a diet of nothing but steak, twinkies, and soda, then I guess that is exactly what I would have to do. (what are the odds?) If that was to happen, I probably wouldn't visit this forum much any more, but if that is what really worked best for me, there would never be any need to explain myself to anyone!! So, whatever you know for sure works best for you, I support you with all my heart. And I wish you something much better than a merely MODERATE life. Go ahead, give yourself permission!

You really do not know what you are talkiking about. Even I know more than you do and i am new. I have eaten fish when I first started so Im not condeming you or anything. heres some info for you to learn about.

Take a look at your teeth. Unless your a vampire you don't have fangs your teeth are more spquared off- designed for grinding plants and grains. Our saliva is not like that of a flesh eater ours has an enzymes that is for digestion of complex carbohydrates and plants. Flesh eaters don't even have this enzyme. Our digestive track is approximaqtely 30 feet long- again designed for digestion and absorption of nutriets from plants. Like it or not our physiology tells us that we're made to eat mostly plants. You cant argue with mother nature

great post sapphire ! i agree who wants to be moderate ! give me unique anyday !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

(Pretty funny, Saphire!)

Liddld,

I agree that cravings are often caused by a lack of essential nutrients, and I think that's a very important consideration.

But it's also true that cravings can be caused by habit. No matter what new diet a person follows, cravings caused by habit can be very difficult to overcome. Just ask any person on any diet who's ever tried to lose weight!

People often come here for support, and we try to give it to them.

With the exception of Vitamin B12, all the essential nutrients available on a cooked food diet, with or without meat, are also available in sufficient quantities on a raw food vegan diet! (Or can you name something that isn't?)

If you would like to continue to eat meat and twinkies that's your choice. People in our "civilized" society do have the power over other animals to kill and eat them at will.

But others have made a different choice. Some people even choose not to kill and eat animals as a humanitarian gesture (rather than just for their own personal health benefit). This is all OK.

I'm personally very happy that I am all raw and all vegan. I lived the other way for long enough, thank you. I reached the point some considerable time ago where I stopped craving anything that was not raw vegan. (And believe me, I surely have not had even an iota of a craving for a twinkie in, oh, maybe 40 years? Do you think those twinkie cravings come from a lack of nutrients in your diet that can be supplied by eating twinkies?)

I'd just say one more thing: "Don't knock it till you've tried it!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2009 09:28AM by suncloud.

suncloud how long have you been a raw vegan.

Hellokitty, it will be 23 years this October. I've had my transgressions during that time - about every 3 weeks when I first started. But I've never strayed from being vegan. I used to crave pasta, but when I think of it now, it seems like it would be something too dry to eat. Like eating mushy cotton. :-p

wow!! I hope that I can post that some day. 23years raw food vegan that proves every doctor wrong that being a raw food vegan will kill you.

Great post Sapphire

I teach 'healthy living' to a group of teenagers. Most of the students are frankly are not interested, but its compulsory.

I often find that the phrase 'everything in moderation' slips off the tongue very easily.
We then examine what is meant by this phrase.
This sparks an interesting debate.
Many come to the conclusion that they hadn't really thought about what they were saying. They just said it.
Others explain that a family member always says it and they just adopt the phrase as truth.
I covered this topic with a group earlier this week.
I will read your post to them next session.
I'm sure they will love it.
Thanks
ffx

Sapphire and Suncloud great comments although I don't want to comment directly to that poor soul pent up with anger and negativity, I liked both of your comments which were spot on. My life has for the most part moderate and I want better,and I don't think twinkies are going to get me there. We are all living beins that need food that is alive and full of the vitamins and minerals that make a much more efficient fuel.I am new in this journey and have had some recent frustrations but when I read a post like this it renews my enthusiam and focus. Thanks Suz

There should be an automatic filter here for those Weston A Price kooks : )

Hi liddld23,

Regarding how "natural" the consumption of meat is for humans, I won't even try to argue with you. The whole "big brain" theory is not necessarily wrong; Frankly I have no opinion on it, except I would tend to doubt cooking does much to enhance the quality of any kind of protein for nutritional purposes. It does kill lots of parasites, of course.

Here's the deal regarding the "all-or-nothing attitude:" Your body will tell you what's good for it, EXCEPT when it is addicted to something. Think of it this way: Let's say we have all been addicted to heroin for years, and some of us have discovered that their lives become much easier, they have greater clarity of mind, feel more energized, etc, if they somehow manage to get through several weeks of their bodies telling them that heroin withdrawal is a really bad thing. They have overcome their physical withdrawal symptoms and are living a happy, healthy life without heroin. Deep down they still feel that a fix would be enjoyable. Now imagine someone suggesting heroin is ok in moderation. It's not about being right or wrong, but we are talking about completely different points of view, technically a completely different thing altogether.

Isn't it funny that this poster has not responded again since venting his/her disagreements? And yet we all fell for it, hook-line-sinker. *LOL*

Dear liddld23 :

Quick little solution for your frustration -

Step 1: Move cursor up to the little "search" bar on the top of monitor screen
Step 2: Type in "find forums with people that share my beliefs/opinions"
Step 3: Click the little "Go" button

Moving on.................
*wink*

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

I LOVE this debate!! Sorry I haven't gotten back until just now. I try not to be a slave to my computer. Thank you to all who are responding. Jodi - couldn't resist, eh? And the twenty thing was an exaggeration. You should know, I'm actually partial to Ho-Ho's and Ding-Dongs (And, Suncloud, who in their right mind would ever think they are a healthy? We all know it has no nutritional value. Cake is just yummy.) Twinkies don't really do it for me either, I like the word and it gets a message across, but I do have a Twinkie theory: With a 99 yr shelf life, eat a Twinkie a day and you'll never rot! Those Egyptians had nothing on Hostess.

Here is an article regarding the cancer debate: [www.jonbarron.org] It is absolutely true that eating a more vegetable based diet will lower cancer rates, just not necessarily colon cancer, but eating a basket of chicken wings during the Super Bowl won't kill you either. Admittedly I didn't think out that statement well enough.

EZ & Kleinphi - Yeah, I understand the addiction/lack of control issue. But I have to say as I change my diet I really find eating raw foods and a more vegetable based diet refreshing and I crave it too. And on the subject of cravings - a vegan friend of mine dreams about rice and beans when she needs more protein. My brain just associates hamburger with those nutrients, but I could just as easily get them from other sources. At that point its a choice. I believe people have far more self control then they give themselves credit. Everyone is right, you have to do what's right for you. My brain goes flat when I don't eat some animal protein sometimes.

Hellokitty, look in your mouth - you have canines. They are not as long and sharp as raw meat eaters like cats, but they are not flat like horses. They're in between, perfect for cooked, softened meat eating.

All4greens, Tamukha, plainlydressed - don't hate. I don't hate on you. It's just a debate. Be sure you're getting all your necessary nutrients and maybe you won't be so cranky. And to that point - I think a lot of people on "alternative" diets don't eat properly. So many I know look sickly, with a bad pallor to their skin, low energy, and ditsy. Because we live in a meat eating society we are not taught how to supplement and truly adjust diets to get everything we need. Now, hold your horses. I can't see any of you, so I'm not suggesting you are all vitamin deficient, I'm just saying be more careful of what you eat to ensure proper health.

For me, food is a delight, and I love the tastes and textures. The YUM factor (veggie can be just as yummy as animal). I can't wait to try new things when I travel, near or far. I look around and think to myself "what do they have and can I try some?" I don't want to miss out on anything in life - experience all (not a MODERATE life like the one Sapphire refers to) I'm saying strap those bungee cords to your ankles and jump, once!! Yes, heroin is addictive, which is why I'm waiting until I'm 80 to try it. I want to know what all that fuss is about.

Well, keep it coming my friends!

While I will agree with the first post (above) about
being able to accept ourselves (and others) for
our imperfections. No doubt, it is first through
acceptance of "what is" that fosters change to
take place. But acceptance and excuse-making
(and/or rationalizations) are not equivalent.
Nor ought they be. And that's why people think
they need "moderation": because they can't accept
what they are in the first place.

So with the first post it seems we're setting the
bar ultra-high for ourselves with this thread
advocating "moderation." And we're challenging
ourselves to be all we can be with this thread
advocating "moderation." And we're aiming high
and having goals that the most mediocre, ordinary,
and unaccomplished person could acquire with this
thread advocating "moderation."

And that's the problem with the "moderation" argument:
it doesn't aspire, nor inspire anyone. It's not
chockful of profundity, virtue, and meaning;
but rather, it's full to the brim with apathy,
a lack of integrity, and meaninglessness. And
that is what we ought to be striving for as
Human Beings? The lowest common denominator?

In my mind, the first post in this thread is
symptomatic of the type of thinking that has
world in the shambles that it's in today.
And last I checked that type of thinking has
helped produce a American populace that is
(even by the low standards of day) saying
that nearly 70% of people are overweight.
Not to mention that we have a multi-$$$$$$$$
TRILLION$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
disease-care system that still has people clamoring
for nationalized health care because so many
or them are dependent on medicos to "take
care of" them. And for every "healthy" person
in his/her 70's, 80's, 90's, and 100's, I'll
bet there's thousands, if not tens of (or even
hundreds of) thousands of people, "stricken"
with rather serious and debilitating health
issues, and/or stuck in a nursing homes, utterly
dependent on others for their care. So much
for moderation. And what it will get you.

As for the pro-meat argument, before there was
manageable fire (which is relatively new on
the historical scene, accounting for only 3%
of the time of discernible human evolution),
there was only RAW food for Human Beings!
And before that, multiple billions of years
of animal evolution, a RAW evolution! Living
DNA is a wholly RAW DNA.

But you stick to your lofty "moderation" goals.
You have your donuts, and your twinkies, and
your ice cream, and your hot dogs. And you'll
be right where the other "moderation" advocates
are right now: many in desperate straights (or
well on their way to it); seeking others to pay
for their caretaking; claiming they're all just
"victims"; and wondering why life has to be so
difficult.

In summation, this all reminds me of one of the
last lines in the movie "Groundhog Day" when Phil
has finally come back to Reality he says: "Today
IS tomorrow."

Steve
[www.meetup.com]
[www.rawgosia.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2009 08:10PM by paragon1685.

there are 2 lines from your cited reference that shoots down your *facts*

For one thing, when interpreting the results, the researchers lumped the vegans in with the vegetarians since there were so few cancers among the vegans. And so, it's impossible to know if the vegans also had high colon-cancer rates. Also, past studies have shown reduced colon cancer rates among vegetarians.

and

The fact is, though, that both groups ate dairy and since the vegans weren't evaluated separately, the impact of dairy wasn't measured here


not exactly what i would call a very conclusive study ! lol, the fact that is was published by The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, makes me only think of who was behind the study and what are theyre $$$finacial$$$ motivations behind it lol


this website is a place for us to support and share ideas about raw vegan .. not to debate the merits of eating animal producs

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2009 08:50PM by Jgunn.

liddld23

Quote

EZ & Kleinphi - Yeah, I understand the addiction/lack of control issue.

For me its like when I take that first bite of cooked food the door is opened a crack and cooked sticks its foot in the door making it hard to close. From there cooked keeps pushing the door open until it moves in with me and my %'s are so dismal that I feel the negative effects of eating the dead food returning. I have been raw for almost two years now (aug 1, 07) and with the exceptions of two supplements (B12 & D) and a few slips that I learned from I have been and continue to be an all fresh raw vegan eater (minus the B12 & D supplements I mentioned). The changes in my physical & mental health that I have experienced from eating fresh raw vegan foods have been totally amazing. I thought I could never feel this good again. Thats what keeps my journey on course with my day to day, moment to moment actions. Anyone that wants to eat dead food can have my share and welcome to it. :) There are more aspects to the raw lifestyle then eating and they all contribute to the synergistic effects. The point is its all about cause --> effect. Now I'm going for a bike ride - Ah it feels so good to feel good again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2009 09:11PM by EZ rider.

Yay, EZ! That's what it's all about Liddld - feeling good!

Liddld, I'm glad you're enjoying the "debate", but what exactly are we debating about? You say the word "Twinkies" gets the message across. I'm sorry, I didn't get it. What is the message? Or do you really think eating Twinkies will keep you from rotting? (um, no, that can't be it...)

Liddld, are you trying to justify eating a "moderate" amount of junk food because of this thing you call the "Yum factor"? I don't know if you'll believe this, but enjoying that kind of stuff might just indicate a deficiency in the real essential nutrients found in whole, healthy fruits and vegetables - you know, the foods that supply real unprocessed carbs in their natural state? Honestly, liddld, this is really true: People who eat better foods don't enjoy Ho-Hos, and it would never even occur to them to place Ho-Hos in the category known as "FOOD". There's no "Yum" factor intrinsically involved in eating Ho-Hos. (And putting the plastic wrapper into the land fill to pollute our planet for centuries to come).

I personally do believe there is a "Yum" factor intrinsically involved in picking and eating fresh warm luscious sun-ripened blush-colored fruit from an organically fed fruit tree. (And dropping the natural peel and pit onto the ground to help sustain the other critters, and mulch and fertilize the tree).

Sure, "a lot of people on 'alternative' diets don't eat properly". So? A lot of people on any kind of diet don't eat properly. That's what this whole forum is about - trying to help each other eat properly. Got any suggestions (besides adding a "moderate" amount of Ho-Hos to the diet)?

Maybe this all comes down to a feeling - or fear of a feeling - of being "deprived". Some people seem to have a problem with this when looking into healthier diet choices. But who is actually more "deprived" - the person who never gets to eat enough Ho-Hos, or the person who never gets to eat enough fruit? The answer is in the mind of the individual, and minds can change - at will.

So, it's up to you to answer that question for yourself. There's really nothing to debate about here. You already know the answers that are relevant to you. Or are you trying to convince us here to start eating hamburgers and Ho-Hos (in "moderation"? Fat chance, friend.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2009 09:53PM by suncloud.

By the way folk, this is not a debate forum. liddld23, if you want support in eating a raw vegan diet, this is the right forum for that. If you want to debate the merits of raw versus other diets, this is not the place.

For everyone else, please keep in mind the purpose of this forum is to support people who already know they want to eat a raw diet. This is not the place to convince somebody they should be eating a raw diet.

These kind of debates can be quite emotional, and people who start these debates are looking to evoke this kind of energy. For those who respond, please do not get attached to being able to change people's minds about the raw diet. Your energy is better spent help those who already know that raw foods is going to help them in their healing.

Thanks Bryan, for the reminder!

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Bryan, for the reminder!
PlainlyDressed said it best...."Hook-Line-Sinker"....
meaning there are hungry Fish.
I can't believe how Gullible people are here to get sucked in
like this....WY

Bryan - Thank You. Like I said..... "moving on......."

Wheatgrass Yogi - I completely agree and also find it rather amusing how hard it is for many of us to just ignore and move on.

Amen to Bryan. =)

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

Hey Bryan, this is a discussion board. I started a discussion. This is totally the place to debate the pros/cons of your lifestyle. You must admit your eating habits are a bit more non-conformist then the average vegetarian or vegan. No judgment, just saying. And plainlydressed, Wheatgrass, Jodi, I don't want to discuss this with "people that share my beliefs/opinions" That's boring. Uninspiring.

Debate is good. It's healthy. It's a great way to affirm your beliefs or discover new ones. Don't take it so seriously. It's fun. I'm sorry if I gave anyone the impression that I think you should change. You shouldn't, you should be having fun trying to convince me why I should be making the change to your better, healthier, [insert here] lifestyle. C'mon, guys, play with me.

I totally support your lifestyle. I am looking into changing my lifestyle which is why I joined this site and I never said you should eat a Ho-ho. I said I can't imagine giving that up forever and I don't know how often you think I eat them, but once in a while, like every few years, it's fun. I like them. I also don't think anyone should beat themselves up for eating something outside of the diet on occasion either. Look at the world we live in. I don't want to deny myself some delectable chocolate mousse when I am in Paris, or try a fresh fish sandwich - fish caught and fried on the boat in the Mediterranean before your eyes. You may not see it as being deprived, but I really enjoyed those flavors.

When reading EZ - I can really see what attracts you to this diet. Still, thank you EZ, I will take your piece of Birthday cake. And lets admit it, Suncloud, the reason the average unhealthy eater doesn't feel the full effects of their unhealthy diet is because the Ho-Ho's are fortified (well okay, the Sugar Coco Puffs are). I never said this was particularly good for us, or our environment, just tasted good. Sure, sure it could and probably should all go away tomorrow. But I would cry.

As we get into this debate this brings up another point: B12 and D. What I question is the health of a diet that has a proven deficiency? It's great that we live in a time when we can fortify. Funny how that works, eh (see Coco Puffs above)? But that brings up a question I have: what about milk? I know it's from animals, but it's more like an apple. Picking it doesn't kill the tree. And it's "raw". Seems like the missing piece to the puzzle of the raw food vegan diet B12 & D deficiency.

Now about the Raw aspect. We are no longer Australopithecene, so the arguments that early hominids only ate raw food doesn't hold any water. Or that other animals only eat raw food. We have evolved to where we have adapted to eating cooked food. Isn't cooking a technological innovation that greatly benefited human beings? Didn't it render previously inedible food edible? Cooking seems to me a good thing.

Peace!

See Ya liddld23!