Do vegans not use wool or silk products? I'm a knitter. I'm wondering if a true vegan would not knit with wool or silk yarns? Not sure I could give those up!

Now THAT will open a can of worms. *LOL* Just kidding. It depends on who you ask. I, personally, am not the kind of vegan that splits hairs over wearing leather shoes, eating raw honey (made from bees), or requiring to wear only clothing made from plant fibers. I'm sure those folks are out there and on this forum as well, but I tend to live by a more practical, balanced approach, personally. I'm sure you will find a variety of opinions in response to your post, but it ultimately comes down to your own personal, individual preferences and convictions. Quite frankly, if anyone chastises you for KNITTING with those fibers, I would be compelled to question where their priorities lie.

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

Molli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do vegans not use wool or silk products? I'm a
> knitter. I'm wondering if a true vegan would not
> knit with wool or silk yarns? Not sure I could
> give those up!


A true vegan would not. Wool and silk are obviously from sheep and worms respectively. Joannie Stepaniak has published a vegan handbook which you can purchase or check out from your local library with the do's and don'ts (disclaimer, she's not the keeper of vegan convention but is widely quoted). But here's the critical question. How important is the label vs. the impact to the planet and the underlying ethics, Ahimsa, do no harm. Even if you have the vegan label, the increment of benefit to living beings and the planet may not matter as much if you are a "close-vegan" or a "near-vegan". What I'm saying is that if you are very close to being vegan and raw vegan esp. and have some vestiges of former life, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Being close-vegan or near-vegan is better than going back to eating a standard american diet or even going back to ovo-lacto which truely engenders cruelty against living beings. Silk and wool will as well, but we all are threads of gray in some sense.

The thought police peruse this place, so I'm not telling or advising to give up being vegan. This is a vegan board. I'm just expressing the old aphorism, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Best I can do. And be well to you in your decision.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 04:28PM by pborst.

plainlydressed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now THAT will open a can of worms. *LOL* Just
> kidding. It depends on who you ask. I,
> personally, am not the kind of vegan that splits
> hairs over wearing leather shoes, eating raw honey
> (made from bees), or requiring to wear only
> clothing made from plant fibers. I'm sure those
> folks are out there and on this forum as well, but
> I tend to live by a more practical, balanced
> approach, personally. I'm sure you will find a
> variety of opinions in response to your post, but
> it ultimately comes down to your own personal,
> individual preferences and convictions. Quite
> frankly, if anyone chastises you for KNITTING with
> those fibers, I would be compelled to question
> where their priorities lie.


Thanks for sharing! I hope my post doesn't create a bunch of contention -- I didn't mean for it to. I haven't read about the ideologies of veganism so I really didn't know or understand why using wool or silk would be a no-no.

Pborst -- thanks for your response. Its something I need to think about. I'm not sure that sheep would be very happy if their wood was never sheared. Not sure if there are any "wild" sheep on the planet. I guess I could read up about them. Perhaps their wool stops growing after it gets a certain length? I know that angora goats' wool keeps growing and growing and growing and will literally hang on the ground and get full of stuff and get very very heavy for the animal to carry around with it if someone never shears it.

I presume that we shouldn't use any products with lanolin then since it comes from sheep? I'm allergic to lanolin myself, so I watch the labels!

I guess an obvious follow up question is that you love to knit and that's great. Maybe a question I can't answer is what do vegan knitter knit with? I think I'm going to be inspired to google "vegan yarn" and report back. Wish me luck!

[veganyarn.blogspot.com]

well they aren't very friendly, but probably no worse than the thought police on this place, but it's a place to start.

[knittingcrochet.suite101.com]

better

[nutmeg.gen.nz]

[community.livejournal.com]

Molli, I think the bottom line you shouldn't have to give up something you love very much. Hope this helps.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 04:37PM by pborst.

Molli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pborst -- thanks for your response. Its something
> I need to think about. I'm not sure that sheep
> would be very happy if their wood was never
> sheared. Not sure if there are any "wild" sheep
> on the planet. I guess I could read up about
> them. Perhaps their wool stops growing after it
> gets a certain length? I know that angora goats'
> wool keeps growing and growing and growing and
> will literally hang on the ground and get full of
> stuff and get very very heavy for the animal to
> carry around with it if someone never shears it.
>
>
> I presume that we shouldn't use any products with
> lanolin then since it comes from sheep? I'm
> allergic to lanolin myself, so I watch the labels!

Exactly my point. *grin* We have to think PRACTICALLY sometimes. God provided sheep to provide wool for clothing and other products. And yes they DO get very uncomfortable if they were never sheared. We are not killing and EATING the sheep, but simply using what they give to us. God made bees to create honey. God made worms to create silk. I like the comment from the other poster - "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." *LOL* Use good practical common sense when making any decisions and you'll be just fine, I'm sure. =)

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

Hey, great idea! I also use cotton yarn, but cotton is not warm enough in a cold climate!

Molli,

Left you some links above for vegan knitting alternatives. Best to you in your endeavor.

Paul

Molli,

While I agree very much with the idea to be practical, being practical I think also involves acknowledging "conditions on the ground" so to speak. By which I mean what really happens to the sheep whose wool we buy. And there I believe that boycotting wool under any circumstances unless you have very good information to the contrary is a solid idea. The sheep do suffer. [www.veganpeace.com]
It's why I'm woolfree. Your call.

Paul



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 04:59PM by pborst.

In winter, I like to layer multiple thin layers as opposed to a heavy coat. Traps warm air between layers. Usually a cotton undershirt, two overshirts and additional layers as needed. If it's windy, add a Gore-tex shell over it. Note it's not an Al-Gore-tex shell (which I keep in my "lock box!!" lol), just Gore-tex.

Now I understand more about the philosophy behind vegan living. I thought -- and probably silly of me -- that vegans didn't eat animals, fish, etc. because they didn't feel that we should kill them. I didn't realize until now that it is much more than that -- its more about how the animals are treated while they are alive, etc. That makes sense to me. I wonder why vegans have pets though? Are dogs intended to live behind a fence or on a leash while on a walk, for example? Dogs are created with their sexual organs intact -- they aren't created neutered or spayed. But most people probably do that to their dogs. I have 2 dogs and I treat them as best as I can -- feed them healthy food (not that packaged dry dog food), etc. I also have a horse. Believe me, he gets about the best care that a horse could get. But he doesn't get to run wild. I might not make a good 100% vegan!

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Molli,
>
> While I agree very much with the idea to be
> practical, being practical I think also involves
> acknowledging "conditions on the ground" so to
> speak. By which I mean what really happens to
> the sheep whose wool we buy. And there I believe
> that boycotting wool under any circumstances
> unless you have very good information to the
> contrary is a solid idea. The sheep do suffer.
> [www.veganpeace.com]
> It's why I'm woolfree. Your call.
>
> Paul


Dang I just read the link on veganpeace.com and that is so sad. I visited a sheep farm in New Zealand once and saw many many sheep living on huge open very green pastures. But of course I didn't think about all of the other stuff that happens to them during their life.

Molli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Molli,
> >
> > While I agree very much with the idea to be
> > practical, being practical I think also
> involves
> > acknowledging "conditions on the ground" so to
> > speak. By which I mean what really happens to
> > the sheep whose wool we buy. And there I
> believe
> > that boycotting wool under any circumstances
> > unless you have very good information to the
> > contrary is a solid idea. The sheep do suffer.
>
> >
> [www.veganpeace.com]
> > It's why I'm woolfree. Your call.
> >
> > Paul
>
>
> Dang I just read the link on veganpeace.com and
> that is so sad. I visited a sheep farm in New
> Zealand once and saw many many sheep living on
> huge open very green pastures. But of course I
> didn't think about all of the other stuff that
> happens to them during their life.


Just sent you a PM on pets. The pet issue is really huge now in my family. And one a lot of vegans discuss. Bet there are some good threads on it in this forum.

Paul,

Thanks much for your help on this thread. This is something that I feel I can no longer turn a blind eye too. There are so many things that matter to me. Sometimes I feel that my plate is full. But I need to find more room on it to educate myself about these things and make some decisions.

Molli

Plainlydressed -- I also thank you for your replies. I can see how so many factors may need to be taken into consideration to make balanced decisions. It would be difficult for me to change everttgubg cold turkey overnite! But I am making changes. I have started with a raw diet. I've changed laundry soap, cleaning supplies, etc. This will be a gradual change for me while I am educating myself and making decisions that I feel will be right for me. I guess I should be grateful that I live alone right now cause I don't know what people do when they live in a mixed household (meaning some vegans and some that aren't!).

Molli

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Molli,
>
> While I agree very much with the idea to be
> practical, being practical I think also involves
> acknowledging "conditions on the ground" so to
> speak. By which I mean what really happens to
> the sheep whose wool we buy. And there I believe
> that boycotting wool under any circumstances
> unless you have very good information to the
> contrary is a solid idea. The sheep do suffer.
> [www.veganpeace.com]
> It's why I'm woolfree. Your call.
>
> Paul

Paul,

I completely agree with you on most points. I am a HUGE animal lover and advocate (which accounts for a house full of rescues - *LOL*). I support boycotting whatever and whenever I can to protect the innocent, etc. etc. However, this can sometimes be taken to the extreme, and I just don't want to discourage or overwhelm those who are new to the lifestyle. If we took such things literally, we really shouldn't be shopping ANYWHERE on earth and should grow, produce, raise, and make our own food and resources 150%. Technically, shopping at mainstream stores supports child labor in SOME unknown country, animal abuse in another, communism in another, and destruction of natural resources in our country and others around the world - if we took the time to painstakingly research the origin of every single product and ingredient that we buy daily at our local walmart, grocery, target, etc. If we understood what horrors and atrocities we were REALLY supporting in our daily lives with everyday products, we would quit work, move to the mountains, and find a way to sustain ourselves completely off the land and by hand. (Which, I actually endorse and highly recommend, but not necessarily for all the reasons listed above.) =)

Once again, don't get me wrong, because I completely support exposing the abuse and cruelty done to animals and people alike and taking whatever steps I can to refrain from giving them any kind of my support or endorsements. However, I also rely on common sense and practical living. I just don't want to discourage or frighten newcomers who are just learning. Provide information (as we are doing), and let them come to their own conclusions and convictions (which I think you've done very well, btw.)

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 06:02PM by plainlydressed.

plainlydressed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Molli,
> >
> > While I agree very much with the idea to be
> > practical, being practical I think also
> involves
> > acknowledging "conditions on the ground" so to
> > speak. By which I mean what really happens to
> > the sheep whose wool we buy. And there I
> believe
> > that boycotting wool under any circumstances
> > unless you have very good information to the
> > contrary is a solid idea. The sheep do suffer.
>
> >
> [www.veganpeace.com]
> > It's why I'm woolfree. Your call.
> >
> > Paul
>
> Paul,
>
> I completely agree with you on most points. I am
> a HUGE animal lover and advocate (which accounts
> for a house full of rescues - *LOL*). I support
> boycotting whatever and whenever I can to protect
> the innocent, etc. etc. However, this can
> sometimes be taken to the extreme, and I just
> don't want to discourage or overwhelm those who
> are new to the lifestyle. If we took such things
> literally, we really shouldn't be shopping
> ANYWHERE on earth and should grow, produce, raise,
> and make our own food and resources 150%.
> Technically, shopping at mainstream stores
> supports child labor in SOME unknown country,
> animal abuse in another, and communism in another
> - if we took the time to painstakingly research
> the origin of every single product and ingredient
> that we buy daily at our local walmart, grocery,
> target, etc. If we understood what horrors and
> atrocities we were REALLY supporting in our daily
> lives with everyday products, we would quit work,
> move to the mountains, and find a way to sustain
> ourselves completely off the land and by hand.
> (Which, I actually endorse and highly recommend,
> but not necessarily for all the reasons listed
> above.) =)
>
> Once again, don't get me wrong, because I
> completely support exposing the abuse and cruelty
> done to animals and people alike and taking
> whatever steps I can to refrain from giving them
> any kind of my support or endorsements. However,
> I also rely on common sense and practical living.
> I just don't want to discourage or frighten
> newcomers who are just learning. Provide
> information (as we are doing), and let them come
> to their own conclusions and convictions (which I
> think you've done very well, btw.)


Hey, thanks. I pretty much in agreement with you. Just sent Molli a PM on my 2 cents for dealing with animal products you already own (a thorny issue for all of us). Being pratical isn't mutually exclusive from having principles. I don't buy any new wool and wear (actually have worn out) what I have. Some one gives you a gift that's wool or silk inadvertantly not knowing your vegan... whatyado? These whatayado questions are going to be here for some time. And I for one know I don't have all the answers. One thing I do know, I'm glad I'm vegan, glad I'm aware, and glad I have community. Best to you and yours.

Paul

addendum: thanks for mentioning fair-trade. Being conscious of social conditions in the countries and factories we are buying products is part of Ahimsa. Buying cruelty free for animals doesn't mean much if we patronize goods produced under inhumane conditions to workers



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 06:15PM by pborst.

Thinking practically to me would be the question of whether kitting/wool/silk/ or any animals being harmed for that matter is necessary for me to exist, and the answer is no.

If you use any animal products, you are a not a vegan. NOT being vegan doesn't make you a bad person. We'll like you just as well. It's fine. People get in an uproar sometimes because they're not vegan but they want to call themselves it but then lash out at others who are just pointing out what's vegan versus not.

In other words, someone telling you you're not a vegan doesn't mean they're saying anything negative. Veganism is what it is. You don't have to read further into statements or make judgements or take things personally.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thinking practically to me would be the question
> of whether kitting/wool/silk/ or any animals being
> harmed for that matter is necessary for me to
> exist, and the answer is no.
>
> If you use any animal products, you are a not a
> vegan. NOT being vegan doesn't make you a bad
> person. We'll like you just as well. It's fine.
> People get in an uproar sometimes because they're
> not vegan but they want to call themselves it but
> then lash out at others who are just pointing out
> what's vegan versus not.
>
> In other words, someone telling you you're not a
> vegan doesn't mean they're saying anything
> negative. Veganism is what it is. You don't have
> to read further into statements or make judgements
> or take things personally.


I understand. I'm a pretty even tempered person. If I saw someone lashing out at me on the boards, I'd more likely just choose to ignore it. And you're right, I don't "need" wool or silk yarn. I do need to use my talents to create beautiful things - its a destresser thing for me -- but I also LOVE to knit socks and I can purchase smaller quantities of plant-based yarn for that and still feel as though I'm using my creative juices.

the important thing is that you love to knit. And there are ways to do that remaining both prinicpled and practical. Thank you Molli.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 07:33PM by pborst.

"God provided sheep to provide wool for clothing and other products. And yes they DO get very uncomfortable if they were never sheared. We are not killing and EATING the sheep, but simply using what they give to us. God made bees to create honey. God made worms to create silk."

wow, that kind of thinking is so baffling to me. i consider humans to be the caregivers, the stewards of the earth, not the owners. it's only my opinion but i have a hard time believing that G_d/Mother Nature intended sheep, bees and silk worms to exist purely for the pleasure and convenience of humankind, or at all for that matter. they have their own lives to pursue that have nothing to do with us IMO.
a note: silk worms are boiled alive in their cocoons to remove the silk strands.

i buy tons of stuff second hand which I am sure includes wool, silk and leather. i try to avoid purchasing it new thereby not supporting an industry that treats animals with who knows what kindness and consideration but i have struggled with the fact that my wearing any of that may put the desire for a similar product into the minds of others who might very well go out and buy it new. for me it ends up coming down to what is available and affordable for repurchase at a thrift shop.

as for pets, i have struggled with that as well. meat eating pets support the meat industry, domesticated pets can disturb local eco-systems, their waste is an issue, having one inspires the desire for same in others who might not care where their pet came from, etc. we don't have pets now but we have in the past.

veganism does have a definition, it's a word that was coined with something specific in mind. falling outside of the strict definition of the terminology is just fine unless it's a label to wear that one is after. i just don't bother with those. if asked i may say that my lifestyle is vegan (if, at the time, it is) or that it is close to or mostly vegan but i wouldn't ever call myself a vegan. no more so than i would a librarian or a waitress or a taxicab driver. labels are too restrictive and confining for me personally.

Molli,

My two cents: you can get humanely harvested wool and post-cocoon silk(the pods are processed only after the worms have hatched and left the building, so to speak). You might have to do some digging, or get acquainted with a local small-herd sheep farmer, or plant some mulberry trees and start a silkwormery yourself, but keep looking. There are new alternatives every day. And I'd rather wear one of these than something made of petroleum byproducts that will outlive God himself in a landfill, like GoreTex(sorry Paul).

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Molli,
>
> My two cents: you can get humanely harvested wool
> and post-cocoon silk(the pods are processed only
> after the worms have hatched and left the
> building, so to speak). You might have to do some
> digging, or get acquainted with a local small-herd
> sheep farmer, or plant some mulberry trees and
> start a silkwormery yourself, but keep looking.
> There are new alternatives every day. And I'd
> rather wear one of these than something made of
> petroleum byproducts that will outlive God himself
> in a landfill, like GoreTex(sorry Paul).

Tamukha,

No problem. But I'm not so cynical to believe that my Gore-tex shell will whither in a landfill to outlive God (I still wonder if it's Alanis Morrisette, lol, -- see Dogma for reference) It's going to Louie's Incinerator.

Paul

i raised sheep and angora goats and i can assure you that after a year if they are not shorn they naturally start to shed their old wool.

as with mountain sheep and mountain goats .. this happens more frequently as their are wild. domesticated sheep and goats have been bred to retain their hair and wool longer but it does shed off it doesnt look pretty but it does happen

indeginous humans at least here in north america would pluck the tufts of wool and hair off bushes and branches during shedding season (usually late spring_) long before someone got it into to their head to capture, keep, and clip what has now become our domesticated sheep and goats

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 10:09PM by Jgunn.

ooh, jodi, what do you do with all the tufts? perhaps you've got a market for those hand harvested sheddings right here! i'd buy or trade some for felting.

i'm pretty sure burning gortex releases all kinds of yuck into the air, not so sure that's a great solution either.

hemp? it can be spun so gorgeously, not like that canvas looking stuff from when it first came out!

coco Wrote:
>
> i'm pretty sure burning gortex releases all kinds
> of yuck into the air, not so sure that's a great
> solution either.
>
>

tongue in cheek my friend. besides. Louie retired a long time ago.

Paul,

Who on earth is Louie?! Is it an old barbeque? Your chimney? Should I name my incendiary appliances, too? My chimney strikes me as a Manuel, on account of it's in the "Spanish Medieval Style" popular in the late 50s. My Spanish is a bit rusty, but . . . "Buenas días, Manuél! Como estás esta mañana lluviana? Yo estoy bién, pero tengo muchas cosas para incendiar, por favór, Manuel, mi amor ladrillano"

maybe it's an allanis morisette reference? i never cared for her music so i'm just guessing.

if we're naming our appliances the stove is hildegard (think stolid old battleaxe) and the fridge gets dubbed gertrude because she's a leaky,cranky, crotchety old bird.