We don't have an L.Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon or any other charimatic "leader" that cults are usually associated with. The recent use of that word "cult" is a tad sloppy if you ask me. We are a "community" with diverse ideas and common principles. Part of those principles are that we don't eat animal products and we minimize cooked foods that we eat. Seems pretty easy to me. And I can understand how frustrating it can be to see a post that has been written disappear. And I can also understand how as a raw food vegan it can be frustrating reading such as post if did not disappear given the groundrules of this forum. YMMV.

Paul

The goal is OPTIMAL HEALTH.

The GOAL is not to be vegan, or to be raw. Rather, raw vegan is the PATH to optimal health on this forum. Or, one hopes it is the path to optimal health. We don't know for sure that it is. When, in any religion or way of life, the emphasis is put on the PATH, rather than the GOAL, yeah, sorry but you've got yourself a cult there. If no dissent from the path is allowed to be spoken, my friend that is a cult.

sunshine79 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The goal is OPTIMAL HEALTH.
>
> The GOAL is not to be vegan, or to be raw. Rather,
> raw vegan is the PATH to optimal health on this
> forum. Or, one hopes it is the path to optimal
> health. We don't know for sure that it is. When,
> in any religion or way of life, the emphasis is
> put on the PATH, rather than the GOAL, yeah, sorry
> but you've got yourself a cult there. If no
> dissent from the path is allowed to be spoken, my
> friend that is a cult.

Not to be flip, but is it really up to you to say what the goal and path of this particular forum is? Maybe I'm missing something here. Health is certainly one part of being vegan, but for many vegans it's just one reason for their chosen lifestyle. Some don't want to be a part of the cruelty of factory farming. Some don't want to leave a huge carbon footprint. Improved health is a bonus, an important one I will grant. But I doubt you will get a majority stipulating that "OPTIMAL HEALTH" is the only goal and for many not even the most important one. Certainly, there is no need to shout. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of raw paleo forums that support the discussion of raw animal products. This forum isn't one of them.

Paul

sorry sunshine i dont agree with your definition of path, goal, and cult either

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Pborst: Wow...I am thinking I should leave here. I don't go on and on about it, but I have mentioned that I am not 100% or even 'high' raw. My impetus for coming to this site and posting was to inspire me to become MORE raw. Perhaps one day I will be very high raw...living in Chicago on a day like today makes it verrry difficult, LOL. Craving warm or even piping hot food is par for the course. I make no apologies for that, though. It is what it is. Likewise, I am not a vegan. I have been before and plan to do so again. I buy organic dairy products and free-range eggs. When I have bought cheese that is non-organic, I get imported cheese, which I imagine would be from small, rather than factory, farms.

Being perfectionistic isn't my goal and I think that it will turn off potential raw fooders if they are made to feel unwanted from posting simply because they are not 'perfect' or even are just imagining the idea of such a diet. Being welcoming and tolerant will always be more impressive than being a purist. I am wondering what this is all about. I guess I am out of the loop, but I truly feel a little funny about even assuming that I belong here anymore, and I just got here!

pborst
"Health is certainly one part of being vegan, but for many vegans it's just one reason for their chosen lifestyle. Some don't want to be a part of the cruelty of factory farming. Some don't want to leave a huge carbon footprint."

Yes, that part can be confusing. I have noticed some behavior which seemed contradictory about those points. I have also noticed that its possible to be vegan and have unhealthy habits. Also some unhealthy judgments about non-vegans.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2010 02:39AM by Mislu.

banana who,

I hear you. I accept you in your effort to do what you feel is best for you. The media of the written word is different. Its possible that the message might come across differently in person.

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst
> "Health is certainly one part of being vegan, but
> for many vegans it's just one reason for their
> chosen lifestyle. Some don't want to be a part of
> the cruelty of factory farming. Some don't want to
> leave a huge carbon footprint."
>
> Yes, that part can be confusing. I have noticed
> some behavior which seemed contradictory about
> those points. I have also noticed that its
> possible to be vegan and have unhealthy habits.
> Also some unhealthy judgments about non-vegans.

While not disagreeing with your statements (all of what you say is certainly possible), the main point of this thread is rebutting the assertion that in order to be a raw food vegan, one is a member of a "cult". Moreover, if this is to be a support board for raw food vegans, is it wrong to enforce groundrules on postings we all agreed to when we signed up?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2010 02:52AM by pborst.

Pborst: Could you steer me to those terms of service, please? Honestly! If I am violating this board's rules by being neither vegan nor high raw or purely raw, then I can respect that. I assumed that this was an open forum for anyone INTERESTED in the raw food lifestyle. I look good on paper. I have many raw food books. Have I followed their diet? Noope. I am thinking of upping my raw intake significantly, having 100% raw days every week, and other similar ideas. I come here not to be supported (since I am not yet actually living the lifestyle) but to begin to surround myself with those who are living in the way I wish to do so.

Another issue which is a bit confusing to me is exactly how many members are raw fooders. There was a poll in the corner of the home page screen a couple of weeks ago asking how raw we were. I responded and looked at the results. I was floored that the majority of people on this site were NOT very raw at all!

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pborst: Could you steer me to those terms of
> service, please? Honestly! If I am violating this
> board's rules by being neither vegan nor high raw
> or purely raw, then I can respect that. I assumed
> that this was an open forum for anyone INTERESTED
> in the raw food lifestyle. I look good on paper. I
> have many raw food books. Have I followed their
> diet? Noope. I am thinking of upping my raw intake
> significantly, having 100% raw days every week,
> and other similar ideas. I come here not to be
> supported (since I am not yet actually living the
> lifestyle) but to begin to surround myself with
> those who are living in the way I wish to do so.
>
> Another issue which is a bit confusing to me is
> exactly how many members are raw fooders. There
> was a poll in the corner of the home page screen a
> couple of weeks ago asking how raw we were. I
> responded and looked at the results. I was floored
> that the majority of people on this site were NOT
> very raw at all!

First of all, I'm not a mod. I am just repeating what Bryan has said as well as what is plainly written under the heading of this forum "This board is for the discussion of Vegan[emphasis added] Living and Raw food related discussion." I don't know how much more plain this could be written. It's a vegan raw board, not just a raw board.

i agree pborst

david

Pborst: Okay, LOL...I didn't think to look there for the info. Thanks!

I have noticed that the fact that this is a raw board doesn't generally forbid discussion of cooked food, and whether and when cooked food might ever be appropriate. It does seem to mean that debate on the vegan question is completely disallowed.

I appreciate the debates about raw foods, and reading this forum helps to shore up my own certainty that the raw path is better. Because the other discussion isn't happening here, I believe it makes this forum less helpful to people who need support in their commitment to stick with or move toward veganism. Hearing the counter-arguments made and defeated by this very intelligent group on this forum would help a lot of people stand up to those counter-arguments when they encounter them elsewhere.

banana who,
There are other Raw food support pages, it might be worth your while to look around and compare philosophies around diet. Don't think this is the only one. Some are less strict about what is posted, but I noticed one in particular has degenerated almost completely into an "other" or an 'off topic' section. But its still mostly raw foodists, and they seem to like it that way. But for someone new that is rather confusing also.

RVAF is a good thing plug into a search engine. "Wai says" diet is a mixture of non-vegan items and allows a certain percentage of cooked foods. I don't know if they still have a forum. That caused some confusion, because people wondered why it wasn't entirely raw. Some wanted to make it a vegan forum. They kindly just directed them to living foods forum, and like forums. I am sure there is a forum for just about everything if one looks for it.

Mislu: Thank you very much for that info...I greatly appreciate it. I knew there were raw food sites to order items, but not communities...It didn't even occur to me. I agree with Frances, though, in regards to the idea of allowing dissent. While I understand the concept of a basic group identity, sometimes I have had the experience of such strict boundaries that the board begins to resemble something of an echo chamber! And ironically, those advocating for such begin to look more and more like they are really insecure about their beliefs and cannot tolerate any contradiction (I am NOT referring to this board in a sly way...I am thinking of another place I regularly visit). But I will respect your rules!

Frances - i believe this forum does help people if they are looking to become vegan or if they need help and support dealing with family members or friends who find it difficult to understand that they want to remove animal products from their diet. I am sure it would be alright (quick check with Bryan ) to explain our own opinions as to why we don't want to eat animal products - and there will be many varied reasons for this.

What it is not alright to do is to encourage anyone to eat animal products or to have people telling us why they eat eggs, cheese etc. It is also not alright to have a debate about wether it is alright to eat honey or harvest free range eggs. I am not making a comment on these issues just respecting the forum as I see it.

Personally anyone who is not vegan or raw but wishes to become so or even to incorporate more of those things to their everyday life has my whole hearted support and I'm sure that everybody would welcome them to this forum



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2010 02:33PM by flipperjan.

When I first came to this forum I was not raw, vegan or even vegetarian, but was so intrigued by the possibilities of what a raw vegan diet could do for me that I accepted the forum guidelines and figured I would just not write about when I ate "certain things." (Ahem.) I figured I could go to other forums/sites when I wanted to discuss non-vegan raw foods, but also continue to use this one because I liked the kind and reasoned responses I was finding here. It was because of health issues that I decided to try a low fat raw vegan diet, and it helped me tremendously. Whenever I "cheated" with non-vegan food, I paid the price with painful physical symptoms. So, oddly, I became vegan for health reasons - not philosophical ones. Now I am utterly grateful to this site for its vegan stance. Where would I be without it? I would be facing a lifetime of medication and probable surgery, but not anymore. My point is that others can do as I was initially intending - participate here within the vegan guidelines and go elsewhere for non-vegan questions/discussions.

To me a cult is some weird religious sect with brainwashed followers who do not think for themselves. Sure, there is agreement that this is a vegan site, but that is an agreement up front. No one is expected to stop thinking for themselves. There are many strong individuals here. It is interesting to see the variety of people - very religious, atheist, scientific, whimsical, concerned with animal rights, health-driven, athletic, obese with aim to lose weight, and on and on. Quite an interesting collection! Although I am tolerant of differences and appreciate diversity, I am a fiercely independent thinker. If this were a cult that tried to control my thoughts I'd be the first one out of here!


My favorite raw vegan

I sometimes have discussions about veganism....not often....heh...heh. I preach in very small numbers....heh...heh.

In any event, to ME...and my mind & practice...veganism is a smokescreen. It's a lot less about not eating meat (although I originally started eating this way for health reasons)....I rapidly realized that my veganism (and any other healthy action I was doing) was a way to show love to myself. I mean, how could I logically show love to myself (which I humbly regarded as a GREATER creature) when I found it ok to show lesser love to a LESSER creature! Ha! ha! It was a logical impossibility to me! I could not even CONSIDER myself an intelligent person and try to pursue two paths simultaneously: loving life....ALL LIFE...while killing it unnecessarily.

I mean, crap, if it's ok to do a lousy job at a small thing.....how the heck am I gonna treat myself and others when it comes to something much greater?

So: Veganism (to me) is far less about the reality of not eating meat.....and it IS sort of threat or cult.......on a level of being a person that DEMANDS a high degree of love and respect show to one's self and others. Some don't hold such a belief.

And as to veganism being a cult? I suppose it is...in the sense that some support freedom and love.....and others consciously or unconsciously seek to degrade, limit, subvert & control. Food is only the arena that becomes readily visible. You know?

Just some thoughts/opinions.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2010 05:42PM by davidzanemason.

This forum is here to support people on their path to being raw vegans. That means when a person first starts, they may be neither raw nor vegan. And they may never be raw nor vegan. But this forum is here to support people who have the desire to be both raw and vegan.

If you don't have that desire, there are other forums on the internet that can support you better in your pursuit of healthy cooked, vegetarian, or omnivore diets.

One of the reasons we insist on the topic matter being vegan is so that vegans can have a safe place to discuss their issues without people suggesting that cooked foods or animal products are going to "fix" their particular issue.

In that regard, I am looking to delete messages here that say something like: "I eat cooked/animal products for reason XYZ".

We welcome non raw and non vegan people on this forum, however the messages have to be supportive of a raw and vegan diet here. If you mention cooked/animal products because you want to transition away from them, this is OK. However if you've made the decision to continue eating cooked/animal product, this forum is not the place to discuss your decision or your reasoning. Again, there are other forums on the internet that can better support you in eating these kinds of diets.

davidzanemason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And as to veganism being a cult? I suppose it
> is...in the sense that some support freedom and
> love.....and others consciously or unconsciously
> seek to degrade, limit, subvert & control. Food is
> only the arena that becomes readily visible. You
> know?
>
> Just some thoughts/opinions.
>
> -David Z. Mason

I understand and agree with Trive's definition of cult. And also his conclusion that we are are free to think for ourselves and are motivated by different factors. David, I don't understand either your definition of cult or the abstract comments about some vegans supporting love and freedom and other only seeking to "degrade, limit, subvert and control". My postulate is that even within the raw food vegan movement (including 80-10-10, raw gourmet i.e., high sugar vs. high fat??? and vegan adherents who reject both of those characterizations such as myself) we have a great deal of diversity and the freedom to debate that. But, there are also boundries in that we also don't want to discuss either eating animal products or large quantities of cooked foods, esp high temp cooked foods. So is the the raw vegan food movement a cult? I would say no. A cult to my way of thinking anyway is a collection of individuals centered around a powerful charismatic leader with a fixed set of immutable beliefs. That's my definition of cult and it pretty closely tracks with the common definition. We have no charasmatic leader, but we have principles. Our beliefs and principles are not immutable but are consistent, thoughtful and altruistic. We debate fruit vs. nuts and seeds not plants vs. meat. A raw vegan board by definition has to set boundries and enforce them. I thank Bryan for that. I'm moving on.

Paul

Oh you bet Paul. I agree 100% - and most definitely support Bryan's guidelines. Bryan I appreciate your hard work!

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In that regard, I am looking to delete messages
> here that say something like: "I eat cooked/animal
> products for reason XYZ".
>

So basically what you are saying is, that if someone changes their diet or belief system they are no longer welcome here, no matter how long they've been members?

It's similar to someone being excommunicated from church gatherings if they develop different ideas about religion.

It creates an atmosphere where people feel they must maintain an image (truthful or not) in order to be able to stay connected with the group & creates the illusion that a particular lifestyle is working for everyone (so if it's not for you you're the odd one out). I remember thinking something was wrong with me for not being able to feel good doing what so many others claimed was such a great path. A more open discussion lets people see the good, bad & ugly to any & all paths & make informed decisions.

I support eliminating overtly hostile people (who want to promote animal products in an inflammatory or degrading way) but I can't say I'm a fan of censorship beyond that.

However, I don't run this place so it's not my call.

My 2cents.

>that if someone changes their diet or belief system they are no longer welcome here<

no, that is not what is being stated. We have the choice to change out diet or belief systems, but we only post that which supports raw vegan. I support Bryan's stance.

communitybuilder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In that regard, I am looking to delete messages
> > here that say something like: "I eat
> cooked/animal
> > products for reason XYZ".
> >
>
> So basically what you are saying is, that if
> someone changes their diet or belief system they
> are no longer welcome here, no matter how long
> they've been members?
>
> It's similar to someone being excommunicated from
> church gatherings if they develop different ideas
> about religion.
>
> It creates an atmosphere where people feel they
> must maintain an image (truthful or not) in order
> to be able to stay connected with the group &
> creates the illusion that a particular lifestyle
> is working for everyone (so if it's not for you
> you're the odd one out). I remember thinking
> something was wrong with me for not being able to
> feel good doing what so many others claimed was
> such a great path. A more open discussion lets
> people see the good, bad & ugly to any & all paths
> & make informed decisions.
>
> I support eliminating overtly hostile people (who
> want to promote animal products in an inflammatory
> or degrading way) but I can't say I'm a fan of
> censorship beyond that.
>
> However, I don't run this place so it's not my
> call.
>
> My 2cents.

If you establish a board for a particular purpose and some violates that purpose or breaks its groundrules, you can always cry censorship. But censorship is largely a concept between the government and the individual, is it not?. The First Amendment has not meaning in a private club, a store, or any other private entity including a board. Invoking censorship like the First Amendment itself is not germane to running a board. Even the idea of censorship presuppoes rights not established on a private board. It's true you can always say a given board would be better if we allowed x,y or z speech. But in the end, that's up to the owner of the board. There is a tendency among the public to import the First Amendment into private areas where the Amendment has no meaning. It's spirit might but not its law. It is well to remember.

Paul

Hey, Paul.

You're conflating censorship and the first amendment. Your description of the first amendment is good, but calling something censorship is not a claim that the first amendment does or should apply, or that the censorship is illegal. Most censorship is completely legal, and much of it is entirely laudable. If Bryan were deleting messages promoting child porn web sites then we would all agree with his decision, but it would still be censorship.

When c.b. described disallowing non-vegan discussion as censorship he was not accusing Bryan of breaking any laws, let alone violating the American constitution. In those situations where censorship actually is "a concept between the government and the individual", then the 1st can start to apply.

frances Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, Paul.
>
> You're conflating censorship and the first
> amendment. Your description of the first amendment
> is good, but calling something censorship is not a
> claim that the first amendment does or should
> apply, or that the censorship is illegal. Most
> censorship is completely legal, and much of it is
> entirely laudable. If Bryan were deleting messages
> promoting child porn web sites then we would all
> agree with his decision, but it would still be
> censorship.
>
> When c.b. described disallowing non-vegan
> discussion as censorship he was not accusing Bryan
> of breaking any laws, let alone violating the
> American constitution. In those situations where
> censorship actually is "a concept between the
> government and the individual", then the 1st can
> start to apply.

Frances,

With respect, you are missing my point. I'm not claiming anyone using the term "censorship" is accusing Bryan of breaking the law. Rather, I think people have expectations about what is or is not appropriate on a private board such as this based on 1st amendment expectations. To the extent any such conflation exists, I would submit that I'm not creating it, only noticing that it belongs to the misplaced supposition that it is wrong for a mod on a board to enforce groundrules that have been in place for some time.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2010 09:10PM by pborst.

" is being a raw food vegan part of a cult?"

that was the original question

answer: yes...and so what ?
i like it

it is definetely a subculture
there are rules

there are lingos
there are just about everything that could be in a cult

but one always assumes a cult is negative

it could be positive too

thing of cult as "cult"ure or sub"cult" ure

and then it kind of does make sense

if it behooves you to follow it then : good cult

if it harms you then: bad cult