Suncloud,
"Even The 80/10/10 Diet quotes statistics of the diets of the longest-living people on earth as being 15% to 18% fat. These people are not fat themselves, and they are active over the age of 100. "

Thats interesting, why would they quote this figure? Where are these people? How did anyone find out the percent of fat in their diet? Is this from a particular culture that tends to eat low fat, or is is just selected individuals that constantly monitor how much they eat, and of what?

Do you have any stats on what the 'average' person eats? What about what the percent fat in diets of people who think they are eating healthy?

There is some criticism of low fat diets that people doing them will be missing fat soluble vitamins. What about essential fatty acids?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2010 05:05AM by Mislu.

The flipside of the story about the Abkhasia, Vilcabambas, and Hunzakuts and their 15-18% fat intake is that they eat 69%, 74%, and 73% of the calories from carbs. The reason they are cited is that they are among the longest lived people on earth, and they eat high carb, low fat diets. The 80/10/10 book references it got the info from John Robbins' book: "Living, Loving and Lasting: The Scientifically Proven Secrets of the World's Healthiest and Longest Lived Peoples"

The USDA "recommends" 20-35% of calories from fat. These numbers are skewed to protect the meat and dairy industries. Read The China Study for some of the shadiness that goes on with those recommendations. And read the 80/10/10 book, all the fat stuff is explained.

The average gourmet raw fooder can eat as high as 60-70% of their calories from fat and not realize it. All are encouraged to plug their diet into cron-o-meter and see for themselves where their percentages come in.

Rawpreston,
What do you make of Okinawans? I never seem to hear them mentioned very much by raw vegans.
[www.okicent.org]

and what of this list of verified oldest people list? The oldest a french woman. A surprising number of long lived americans.
[en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2010 06:43AM by Mislu.

I believe the Okinawans get their longevity from their tendency towards caloric restriction. They have a saying/custom called Hara Hachi Bu which is where you eat to 80% full and stop. I don't think they are related to the raw vegan diet often because I believe they eat a fair amount of fish and maybe don't eat as low-fat.

Not sure about the list of oldest people. I doubt many were raw vegans but there are exceptions to every rule. Could they have done even better on a raw vegan diet? Who knows. To me it's not only about length of life but also quality The SAD clearly fails most people in older age.

Some interesting things about the long lived french woman!
(under health and lifestyle)

"At age 85, she took up fencing, and at 100, she was still riding a bicycle. She was reportedly neither athletic, nor fanatical about her health."

So she was active, but not fanatical, let us all take note!


[8] Calment lived on her own until shortly before her 110th birthday, when it was decided that she needed to be moved to a nursing home after a cooking accident
(she could barely see) started a small fire in her flat.

SHE COOKED!


She smoked until the age of 117, only five years before her death.[14][15][16] Calment smoked from the age of 21 (1896), though according to an unspecified source, Calment smoked no more than two cigarettes per day.[17]

Smoking?!! I don't approve, it stinks.


She ascribed her longevity and relatively youthful appearance for her age to olive oil, which she said she poured on all her food and rubbed onto her skin, as well as a diet of port wine, and nearly one kilo of chocolate eaten every week.[10]

OH my, olive oil on the inside an out! A kilo of chocolate a week?! Thats 2.204lbs! That doesn't sound like 811!



[en.wikipedia.org]

"Not sure about the list of oldest people. I doubt many were raw vegans but there are exceptions to every rule. Could they have done even better on a raw vegan diet? Who knows. To me it's not only about length of life but also quality smiling smiley The SAD clearly fails most people in older age."

I will be interested if anyone finds a vegan on the list. Yes its possible that she could have done better, but shouldn't there be people that did better on the list?

I dunno there are a load of people on Earth who eat like 1-3% of animal products and therefore are not vegans (but they're pretty close). And the vegan trend is a pretty new thing, it's not like it's been common in the Western world for hundreds of years and there are some plethora of lifelong vegans to look at. So the jury is still kind of out. I don't think anyone can really argue that a healthy raw vegan diet likely shortens one's lifespan though.

This is a funny thread tangent

rawpreston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> loeve Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > As for why 80/10/10ers *might* look emaciated,
> the
> > diet can be low calorie. Doug Graham is
> > comfortable with 3-9% caloric fat, 3-9% caloric
> > protein and 3% body fat, all stretching the
> limits
> > of conventional wisdom.
>
> I'd like to point out that 3% body fat is on the
> very low end of Doug's "Healthy/Athletic"
> category, for MEN, which is 3-9%. Comparable
> range for women is 13-19%. His
> "Marginal/Sedentary" range for men is 10-14% and
> women 20-24%.
>
> And as far as the carb/protein/fat ratios, Doug
> Graham is not out on a limb there. He didn't
> invent 80/10/10, he just pioneered a raw version.
> You might want to look into the works of someother
> doctors: McDougall, Fuhrman, Essylstyn, Ornish,
> Barnard, Campbell to name a few.

Rawpreston,
Graham's 3-9% "Healthy/Athletic" percent body fat seems low at both ends to me. Cyclists range 5-15% [www.sport-fitness-advisor.com] , German cyclist Yan Ullrich having a reputation for being always 5-8 lbs overweight yet in the top finishers of the Tour de France.

3% body fat might be normal for the ectomorph body type, or a target for a body builder for muscle definition for a show, otherwise it's underweight, in my opinion.


Oh, the french woman living to about 120? years noting olive oil in her diet reminds me of the Mediterranian diet which has about 40% caloric fat and is considered healthy by many, as long as it is accompanied by an active lifestyle. I don't think there's a decent study of many of the long lived peoples of the world in regards to macronutrient ratios, but would like to see such a thing.

"the Mediterranean diet"

It's a large region, Greece noted as one of the healthiest places. Macronutrient ratios have been studied, including 4,200 random participants from the region, including Greece--

"(caloric) fat ranged from 25.3% in Egypt to 40.2% in Bulgaria"

"The most striking differences were observed in the contribution of fat to the energy intake. Such differences in fat intake among countries in Europe have already been documented in type 1 diabetic patients in the EURODIAB study (Toeller et al, 1996). The high fat intake in Greece is in line with the findings of the EURONUT SENECA Study (EURONUT SENECA, investigators, 1991). The differences in the qualitative composition of the diet did not concern only the nutrients, but also their source of origin. For example Greece and Bulgaria had almost the same contribution of fat to the energy intake, however the plant/animal fat ratio was twice as high in Greece. As a matter of fact Greece showed by far the highest plant/animal fat ratio compared to all other countries, denoting a high consumption of foods of plant origin, a fact corroborated by the high ratio of plant/animal proteins as well. This is in accordance with the findings of previous studies in Greece, where a high consumption of foods of plant origin, ie vegetables, fruit and olive oil has been documented (Willett et al, 1995; Trichopoulou & Lagiou, 1997)."

[www.nature.com]


..I wasn't quite comfortable with the "40% caloric fat" figure mentioned the previous post, but it seems to hold up more or less for Greece.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2010 04:22PM by loeve.

Rawpreston,
"I dunno there are a load of people on Earth who eat like 1-3% of animal products and therefore are not vegans (but they're pretty close). And the vegan trend is a pretty new thing, it's not like it's been common in the Western world for hundreds of years and there are some plethora of lifelong vegans to look at. So the jury is still kind of out. I don't think anyone can really argue that a healthy raw vegan diet likely shortens one's lifespan though."

Some people think that Leonardo da Vinci was vegan, or very close to it, perhaps even nearly a complete fruitarian. Hes recorded as living to 67. Maybe he faked his own death and is still living somewhere in France or Italy.

I recall reading about the N.H. movement, but if you allow me some time I can find my sources again. Its been advocated for some time now, long enough for some of them to have beaten these longevity records. Its entirely possible that 811 is more ideal than anything else. But I still find it rather odd that some of these long lived people didn't sound like they were trying to live long....or were concerned about health at all.

Mislu,

A major factor that influences life span is attitude! That French lady had a great spirit and zest for living that probably cannot be quantified. She apparently really, really enjoyed her chocolate and port and cigarettes, and probably benefitted on a cellular level from the social conviviality that characterizes the enjoyment of these activities in European country life. We should all be so lucky : )

loeve Wrote:


> Oh, the french woman living to about 120? years
> noting olive oil in her diet reminds me of the
> Mediterranian diet which has about 40% caloric fat
> and is considered healthy by many, as long as it
> is accompanied by an active lifestyle. I don't
> think there's a decent study of many of the long
> lived peoples of the world in regards to
> macronutrient ratios, but would like to see such a
> thing.

The Mediterranean diet is a fallacy. The whole thing goes back to 1 study done in 1960 on some hard-working people living in Crete. Yes they ate a fair amount of olive oil and lived longer than other peoples looked at. However Americans to this day use this as an excuse to dump olive oil on their existing diet and think they're doing their health a favor. What they don't realize is the people from Crete today are just as sedentary and overweight as Americans are now, and thereby no longer enjoy enhanced longevity. MORE olive oil wasn't their secret, it was NO PROCESSED JUNK and MORE ACTIVITY.

"In comparison to middle aged male farmers from Crete in the 1960s, mean weight has increased by 20kg (83kg vs. 63kg), which has lead to a 7kg/m2 in mean BMI (22.9kg/m2 vs. 29.8kg/m2), findings that support the fact that the prevalence of obesity in Greece has risen dramatically over the years, even among farmers from Crete, a population historically known for being the gold standard of health status globally."

[linkinghub.elsevier.com]

42% caloric fat was the original Mediterranean diet recommendation--

[www.nature.com]

..Greece is at 36.7 to 39.1 percent caloric fat at this time, from plant and animal sources.

Greece ranks 19th in longevity of countries in the world, now a little behind Israel, France, Spain and Italy. [en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2010 07:47PM by loeve.

Sorry I don't really see the point loeve. The difference between Greece and the US is 79.5 vs 78.2. Besides, should America's goal for longevity be 19th? Shouldn't we instead be interested in blowing past #1?

"Sorry I don't really see the point loeve."

The Mediterranean diet is open to caloric fat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2010 09:05PM by loeve.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Sorry I don't really see the point loeve."
>
> The Mediterranean diet is open to caloric fat.

And it's FAR from an ideal diet.

"And it's FAR from an ideal diet."

You're probably right.

Don't just take my word for it, Jeff Novick is the one who really opened my eyes to the Mediterranean Diet nonsense.

See:
[www.youtube.com]

Not everyone agrees with mainstream society's projection that all men must be muscular in order to look good. Many people might think of it as a success that they don't look like a steroid-popping meat eater, and that they don't feel the need to buy into your prejudices about what a male "should" look like. Unfortunately, I've met several raw males who are made to feel bad about themselves because they don't want to go unhealthy lengths to modify their body into ugly muscles.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2010 04:16AM by lilikoi's lament.

Tamukha

"A major factor that influences life span is attitude! That French lady had a great spirit and zest for living that probably cannot be quantified. She apparently really, really enjoyed her chocolate and port and cigarettes, and probably benefitted on a cellular level from the social conviviality that characterizes the enjoyment of these activities in European country life. We should all be so lucky"

I don't think I ever denied that as a factor. On reading about her life a little more in depth, she also lived a life of leisure, "...pursuing hobbies like tennis, cycling, swimming, rollerskating, piano and opera." I am sure Arles is a beautiful place for all those things.

Another interesting thing was that she signed a contract for a reverse mortgage on her apartment when she was 90 years old. He was supposed to continue payments until her death. I think this person thought he was getting a great deal. But he ended up paying more than double what the apartment was worth. She also outlived him, and the she continued to receive payments from the guys widow until her death!

I spoke to my partner in depth about her, I found it all interesting. The low stress life is probably the biggest factor. Genetics is also a factor, personal favorite of my partner. But I still think there is something about everything combined in one person.

Genetics? Eh, the wiki entry says most of her relatives lived average lifespans. But there is a possibility she got a good genetic lottery. Climate is probably great for people in Arles. There is much made about the benefits of moderate drinking, especially of wine and related products. A lot of people enjoy alcoholic beverages, but I have a difficult time thinking about whiskey, Vodka or beer drinkers being long lived or obtaining health benefits from that.

Chocolate is now considered a 'power food' by a number of people. For most of my life it was a common thought that chocolate was something to avoid, that it was unhealthy. It doesn't specify the type of chocolate she consumed. I just imagine that it was dark chocolate, and probably full fat, and not too sweet. Its also a great source of magnesium, which a lot of people tend to be deficient in.

After doing some reading on alternative views on smoking I am surprised. I will have to give it more thought. I don't like the smell of smoke, and I have a cultural bias against it, being raised in a religion which condemned smoking, and all tobacco use. The current culture in the U.S. is also pretty down on smoking, in case anyone hasn't noticed. I rather like that.

But for the first time I am thinking that perhaps its not the tobacco, but how its processed, and how and WHY people smoke. That she never smoked more than TWO cigarettes a day is significant. One article advocated that very light smoking might be beneficial, by way of stimulating the immune system by mildly stressing it. (assuming that you have a healthy immune system)Moderate to heavy smoking overwhelms the immune system of most people. But that most people start smoking more when under stress is a bit of a problem. And I have noticed that most people seem to smoke more and more over time. It might be all the spiking and additives added to cigarettes. I imagine that she smoked unfiltered cigarettes which were pretty natural, and of high quality tobacco, given that she had access to money. Also that she probably never really experienced the type of stress that might have pushed her into chain smoking.

There was even an article about the possible benefits of mild amounts of second hand smoke! I couldn't believe it, but according to the article it might be more scientific than that make against second hand smoke. I myself would rather advocate the occasional use of high quality incense, if anyone is interested in the possible benefits of exposure to small amounts of smoke. I don't know if there is any studies to indicate any benefits, but It would be interesting to find out. I find it more pleasing than the smell of cheap cigarettes, and my partner occasionally uses it to bless our home. I haven't noticed any ill effect, or any tendency towards increased use or psychological or physiological dependence.

Mislu, Oh, Arles! France is where this lady lived, that's right on the Mediterranean.. been through there and all along from Monaco to St. Tropez bicycling and it's nice, ha, Nice was nice too)P She would have been close to the "original" Mediterranean diet study area which included Crete and southern Italy. The climate, proximity to the ocean and village life is something they might have all shared, and the French way of preparing and enjoying a meal is pretty special. There were lots of healthy looking people when I passed through in June of '89. Walter Willet of Harvard was writing of the Mediterranean diet at about that time (1990-ish) and helped popularize the diet, though the French have their own way. I couldn't find a western style pastry the whole time there!

By the way, Walter Willett is still advocating the "traditional" Mediterranean diet. A raw vegan version can be imagined, replacing animal foods with raw vegan plant foods.

"Together with regular physical activity and not smoking, our analyses suggest that over 80% of coronary heart disease, 70% of stroke, and 90% of type 2 diabetes can be avoided by healthy food choices that are consistent with the traditional Mediterranean diet." [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

..I like the way Willett speaks of adopting "elements" of the diet. In other words, in his mind the diet is not set in stone. "Regular physical activity" seems to be important to the lifestyle.

I find it really interesting that Charlotte Gerson, of the Gerson Institute, who's 90+ and is a picture of glowing health and vitality, says that from her vantage point of years of research and healing thousands of people, stress is not that much of a factor if you have a good diet.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, Walter Willett is still advocating the
> "traditional" Mediterranean diet. A raw vegan
> version can be imagined, replacing animal foods
> with raw vegan plant foods.
>
> "Together with regular physical activity and not
> smoking, our analyses suggest that over 80% of
> coronary heart disease, 70% of stroke, and 90% of
> type 2 diabetes can be avoided by healthy food
> choices that are consistent with the traditional
> Mediterranean diet."
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
>
> ..I like the way Willett speaks of adopting
> "elements" of the diet. In other words, in his
> mind the diet is not set in stone. "Regular
> physical activity" seems to be important to the
> lifestyle.

In Eat, Drink, & Be Healthy, Willett also advocates consuming more plant protein, and less animal protein. He also discourages dairy consumption. He's not vegan. But, supports a plant-based diet.

Do people here care about longevity as a major factor for being raw? I just want to be healthy and feel good while I live, not necessarily live long(er) or longest. I think at some point I'll be done with dealing with other humans and want to rest in the ground.

I want to be healthy, feel good while I live, AND live longer or longest.


My favorite raw vegan

Me too Trive!

I like the idea of experiencing old age. I want to see what it's like!

(Maybe that's because I expect to be healthy until I die in my sleep. Could be that might not happen; but, could be that it might!)

Yes, I want to live very healthfully AND live a long, full life.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Utopian life,
"Do people here care about longevity as a major factor for being raw? I just want to be healthy and feel good while I live, not necessarily live long(er) or longest."

Its a big promotion factor for most ideal lifestyles. I don't necessarily see a contradiction between enjoying life and living a long life.

Kwan,
"...stress is not that much of a factor if you have a good diet."

At the moment I don't have a good diet, and I'm stressed...failing on both accounts. I believe you however! I wish I could only get my partner to agree. Today he really complained about not feeling good, and that nothing helps. We regularly get this fresh carrot juice. But he hasn't the faintest that probably won't make up for some other bad habits, but I am sure we would be worse off without the fresh carrot juice! And as for me I gotta make the effort to live up to what I believe to be true, which I'm not doing. I have faith that I will however.


"Yes, I want to live very healthfully AND live a long, full life."

Yes I do also! There are a number of things I want to experience before my turn on earth is complete! Somethings which will require a number of really good healthy vital fun filled years! or at least not so stressed out.

Hi Mislu! :-)

Hey, I think you're doing great. (Mislu is a friend of mine off the board.) Don't worry... just keep on doing what you're doing.

I might not have articulated that very well with regard to stress: I didn't mean that one doesn't have to feel stressed. I meant that even though we get stressed out, if we have a good diet and lifestyle, the stresses won't be able to negatively impact our health very much. That's what I think Charlotte Gerson meant.

It just seems to me to be counter-intuitive to not want to live to 80, 90 or 100, and settle instead for the goal of a short life, given that we already see people in some of the healthiest populations in the world living to these ages and thriving, without getting Alzheimer's or Parkinson's, using canes and walkers, or having heart disease and diabetes, cancer, and all the rest. A long life seems to be the 'crown' on a healthy life. Most people who die in their 60s and 70s don't die of natural causes, do they? I think they generally die of some disease state. So what would it be like to have radical health (which is exactly what the raw food diet promotes) and live to a ripe old age, filled with the three Taoist treasures of 'energy, vitality, spirit'?

But I digress-- back to Mislu: You're NOT failing! You're just working it out in your own time and in your own way. (Bravo!)

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]