I really like the idea of the whole raw food thing, but there are a couple of niggling questions I have that are interrupting me getting started:

1) Humans have been eating meat for thousands of years. Why are we eliminating meat if it's something we've been eating since the beginning?

2) If the raw food diet is so great, why do we need to take vitamin B12 supplements as a result? Isn't this a clear indication that something is wrong with the diet?

Quick answers:

#1: And we've gotten more and more sick as time passes on. If you research why today's meat is so toxic, you will have a better understanding.

#2: not everyone takes a vitamin B12 supplement & there is no proof meat eater are just as deficient.

There's tons more to health and raw than just those couple of things you've brought up. I'm sure many others will give their answers in regard to this.

Simple Raw Recipes & Health Tips

Thanks. Actually I just read a good explanation by David Wolfe about the meats thing, so that doesn't bother me. So where do chimps and gorillas get their vitamin B12? I'm fairly sure nobody is going out there selling them supplement bottles...

They eat bugs and eggs and bacteria in dirt and the occasional other creature. And @#$%&.
I take a supplement. Just because a diet is not "perfect" doesn't mean it isn't good. Although a meat eating diet may (May) provide adequate B12, it is still lacking in plenty and harmful in many ways. It's all about balance.

Speaking of supplements - where do you get them? I want to get a B12 and iodine supplement. I was thinking about getting it from naturalnews.com, but I got confused with the owners arrogance with the organicjar.com person - it seems that naturalnews is strictly profit oriented and not so user friendly. Do you trust them? Who do you trust for your supplements?

Thanks much for any tips.

I would like to see the blood work of someone on a meat containing SAD diet compared to someone that is high raw vegan or 100% raw.

I can't speak for B12 levels but I can say that my experience since changing from SAD to high raw vegetarian (I'm not vegan yet) is:

More energy
Weight loss
Clearer skin
Sleep better
Improved focus and motivation to do things
Depression is gone
General feeling of wellbeing is improved

That is after only a month.

1)Yes, Man may have been eating meat for thousands of years,
but life started BILLIONS years of years ago and the DNA
of all living creates evolved over that period of time in
a RAW construct. It wasn't until man managed to handle
fire (a few hundred thousand years ago) that our ancestors
were able to leave the jungles of Africa (subsisting on a
diet of wild fruits and nuts) and migrate to other parts
of the world. Until then, Man was on a RAW diet, by
necessity. The DNA of all living things is RAW. (And
given the scope of the $$$$multi-Trillion$$$$ Medical
Establishment to treat Meat/cooked-eating populations,
I'd say that Humans have definitely NOT evolved beyond
that.)

2)Most, if not all, B12 issues are related to lack of
absorption of the vitamin; not a lack of B12. So that
(in and of itself) is a health-issue, not a deficiency
issue.

Go RAW!

Steve
[www.meetup.com]
[www.rawgosia.com]

eat seaweeds over taking an iodine supplement i say, seaweeds are amazing rich in minerals not just iodine, vitamins, anti-cancer compounds, compounds that detox heavy metals and other chemicals, good prebiotic etc.

although the brown seaweed extract(modifilan powder) ive just started selling is amazing its formulated for high levels of organic iodine, and the 2 chemicals above i was talking about anti-cancer/heavy metal detoxer.

Seaweeds don't provide a usable source of B12, only analogues, taking them may actually hinder absorption of real B12.

Meat thousands of years ago was quite different than meat today.

Yes, but by that logic WE are very different today than we were thousands of years ago.
It's been more than proven that humans can live and live well consuming animal products,that's not in question. The point of pursuing an optimum diet is to feed the body what is Best for it, there's a difference between surviving and thriving after all. The fact is, we can survive and thrive with a diet that is free of animal products, it's an easy way to nourish the body and keep it free from dis-ease. For me compassion and care for the environment factor in as well.

Thanks for all the replies! For what it's worth, I just started

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

I think some of your confusion arises from your belief that we were eating meat "since the beginning;" see Paragon's response. If you just try eating way more raw fruits and vegetables for the next few weeks, you will quickly see why people live this lifestyle : )

People have been smoking for couple thousand years too but that doesn't mean it is good for us.

You realize that meat eaters and people who eat dairy products come up wtih B12 deficiences; right?

I eat meat occasionally And I just found I have a b12 deficiency today (and for those of you familiar already with the other issues, my LDL is supposedly about 110 on this last test) , I ordered a b vitamin complex for daily use which has 30 mcg of b12 and a bunch of other b vitamins as well for $10 for a years supply from www.puritanspride.com I believe they said its either vegetarian or vegan as well, I don't remember which... Multi vitamins i got from them in the past where excellent, they break down in vinegar in less than an hour, so that means at least the body will have a good chance to absorb most of it... I shall have to wait to see how easily these b12 supplements break down, as ive not received them yet,lol.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

The only reliable UNFORTIFIED sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12.

www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

Actually, Nubster, it's debatable whether animals products are reliable, as people with B12 deficiency are commonly omnivores and elderly; also, your meat, dairy, and egg sources ARE fortified, if you look at what the animals are fed. The animals aren't getting it from teh soil anymore; it's in their feed. Just google it and check the contents - it's fairly easy to verify.

Just giving some information as given by the Vegetarian Society as well as every other website I looked at about B12 including several different vegan sites.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2010 06:26AM by Nubster.

Apparently those sites and societies didn't research too well then?

The Vegan Society doesn't have a lot on raw veganism but what they do has credibility, IMO.

Regarding how humans have evolved and their predecessors, most of that time was spent in the sea where not only was food obviously uncooked it was also generally whole, that is, big fish ate little fish (whole) and in the process ate the internal organs which is where much of the stored B12 and bacteria are concentrated.

The sea cow (hunted to extinction) ate kelp but probably had the ability to get B12 like modern bovines having evolved with two stomachs and so getting nutrients from bacteria high up in their digestive tract (or elso they got it from zooplankton attached to the kelp).

A minority of vegans seem to do well no matter what.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2010 10:40AM by loeve.

..went back and read that Vegetarian Society article --

[www.vegsoc.org]

At first I thought the link was to the Vegan Society articles, which happen to be similar.

I'd like to see one documented case in human history
where a long-term, strict RAW Vegan has ever had B-12
deficiency... (I think the notion that we must add
external things to the human body, including man-made
synthetics, to create supposed "health" is what [in
part] got us into trouble in the first place.) I
certainly wouldn't trust much of ANYTHING that comes
from the multi-TRILLION-$$$$$ Medical Establishment
regarding the so-called requirements for the human
body.

And I know plenty of Vegans who weigh well in excess
of 200 lbs., due mostly to poor dietary practices, and
thus, I would hardly consider Veganism, in and of
itself, health-promoting. Healthy living is the only
thing that produces health. And that, my friends,
is not found in any magical pills, potions, or exlixirs.

Steve
[www.meetup.com]
[www.rawgosia.com]

How about a sea cow --


j/k

A sea cow --


Manatees are sometimes also called sea cows. I'm not sure how related they are as species.

"Manatees eat over 60 different species of aquatic and semi-aquatic plants. Their diet includes manatee grass, turtle grass, various species of algae, mangrove leaves, and water hyacinths. They may consume 10% of their body weight daily in vegetation. Their digestive system allows the bacterial breakdown of cellulose in the hind-gut. To accommodate the great volume of high-fiber food they eat, manatatees have intestines up to 150 feet long." [www.manatees.net]

Our own David Mason who is a long time fruitarian was recently tested extensively by the Hippocrates Institute and found to not only have adequate B12 but also every other nutrient tested for. He had a slight deficiency in something, I can't quite recall what it was at the moment but he was in incredibly good health after many, many years of eating only fruit.

David Mason did test well in that Hippocrates Institute challenge a couple years back, coming up just a little short in vitamin D and something else but excellent overall, IMO. Brian Clement gave him a hard time, David took the high road.

The Giessen raw food study looked at 201 70-100% "long term" raw food adherents (of two years or more) --

"Plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations were low in 41%, marginal in 38%, and adequate in 21% of the participants. Plasma tHcy concentrations were elevated in 51% of the participants. Vitamin B-12 deficiency, defined as low plasma vitamin B-12 and elevated plasma tHcy, occurred in 38% and MCV > 96 fl in 12% of participants. None of the participants had low plasma folate concentrations.

"Vitamin B-12 supplements were used on a regular basis by 12 participants (data not included in Table 4). Plasma vitamin B-12 was higher and plasma tHcy was lower in subjects taking vitamin B-12 supplements than in participants not taking supplements. The plasma concentrations were 403.3 (257.9–1285.8) pmol/L for vitamin B-12, 39.4 (29.2–43.6) nmol/L for folate, and 12.9 (9.6–16.5) µmol/L for tHcy (P < 0.001).

"The odds ratio for having vitamin B-12 deficiency (low plasma vitamin B-12 with elevated plasma tHcy concentration) was 5.4 (95% CI 2.1–13.8) for vegan and 3.1 (95% CI 1.4–6.9) for ovo-lacto-vegetarian raw food diet adherents, with mixed raw food diet adherents as the reference. The frequency of vitamin B-12 deficiency was independent of the proportion of food consumed raw (data not shown).

"The main predictor of plasma tHcy was the dietary intake of vitamin B-12. No correlation was observed between plasma tHcy and folate intake. In a multiple linear regression analysis, plasma tHcy was correlated with plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations (partial r = –0.450, P < 0.001) (Fig. 1), but not with plasma folate (partial r = –0.076, P = 0.295). MCV was not related to plasma vitamin B-12, even after adjustment for plasma folate, serum ferritin, and transferrin."

[jn.nutrition.org]

i wanna be a sea cow

that would be fun...Id like to be a sea turtle too, a really big one...big enough so sharks wouldnt try to eat me...lol

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seaweeds don't provide a usable source of B12,
> only analogues, taking them may actually hinder
> absorption of real B12.


i was meaning because he was asking about an iodine supplement, correct though.