mindy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Powerlifter,
>
> Thank you. I can tell you understand, it has been
> horrible. I would be very interested in learning
> about the adaptogenic herbs you used. Would you
> mind giving that information in a post or if not,
> a private message? How much did you take? Will
> b5 supplements work as well as the bee pollen?
> How long did it take for you to notice a
> difference?
>
>
> Mindy

Not a prob mindy give me a PM on here if you wish ill be happy to help as much as possible. I dont really like sythethic vitamins as many can unbalance other vitamins such as the b vitamins. In which case i prefer bee pollen, rice bran, seaweeds or nettle for the vitamin B. But bee pollen has the highest level of vitamin B5. You need to start small i.e a few grains but you can build up levels quickly. Vitamin C is easily obtained via a high fruit/vegetable diet so supplementation isnt really necessary unless you dont eat fruit.

The adaptogenic herbs feel free to PM and ill let you know about them, you'll most likely need to wean slowly off the cortisol or you'll crash the adrenals.

I sympathize with you i spent 5+ years ill going round in circles, candida, detoxing, trying every diet/lifestyle under the sun etc.

Take care

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ariel,
>
> Fascinating, and, also, I wish you continuing
> improvement in health
>
> mindy,
>
> I recently looked up what Dr. David Brownstein, of
> iodine therapy fame, is lately recommending, and I
> was surprised to see it's salts:
>
> [www.drbrownstein.com]
>
> The thing about 80/10/10 is that I think it's OK
> to deviate in the case of an acute serious
> disorder--there should be no reason you couldn't
> do it, and consume sea salt water and still
> benefit from the regimen. Good luck!

Hi Tamukha,

Just a warning. Sea Salt usually has a very minute amount of iodine unless it is added. it might not be enough to supplement a deficiency.

Coey,

Yes, but mindy was asking about sea salt, and I remembered that Dr. Brownstein(who is local to me)--he made his name in non-allopathic medicine promoting iodine supplementation--has now become a proponent of sea salt supplementation for mag/pot imbalances. I thought it was interesting that he's an M.D. but seems to continuously contradict his own education, like with telling people that a low salt diet is harmful to good health. Who else is saying that?!

Tamukha,

Oh, I thought you were talking about using sea salt to counter an iodine deficiency. I agree that Sea salt is much much better than table salt. It is like the difference between corn and HFCS.

Unrefined salts such as himalayan pink salt, celtic grey sea salt, over just normal sea salt which only has 4 minerals and is about as unhealthy as normal salt.

The unrefined salts have the full range of trace elements.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unrefined salts such as himalayan pink salt,
> celtic grey sea salt, over just normal sea salt
> which only has 4 minerals and is about as
> unhealthy as normal salt.
>
> The unrefined salts have the full range of trace
> elements.

Powerlifer,

I believe you are referring to "refined sea salt" which is a marketing gimmick and is essentially the same as table salt.

[www.mortonsalt.com]


As far as I know, all unrefined sea salts have a large number of trace minerals.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ariel,
>
> Fascinating, and, also, I wish you continuing
> improvement in health
>
Thank you Tamukha.

For those who have been 'convinced' by the marketing claims of the 'raw sea salt' people that that salt is good for us (however Himalayan or Celtic, etc etc), please see my articles here:

(Part 1)

[debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com]

(Part 2)

[debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com]

I do look at those 'trace minerals' in some depth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 12:08PM by debbietook.

Hi Debbie,

Interesting article, but all your evidence is anecdotal and you provide no references to any studies.

My own anecdotal evidence is that when I become 100% raw, several times I experienced hyponatremia. It wasn't diagnosed at first and I went through several days of horrible symptoms. I kept craving popcorn, but I remained raw and eventually it went away. After a few times of this, I finally broke in and had some popcorn with some salt. Before I finished the bowl I felt great.

Some people sweat to much and rehydrate for the sodium in their bodies to remain at safe levels. This is why is very hot and dry climates, people will resort to taking salt tablets.

For sure 811 wont cure late nights, undereating, not drinking enough water, living in a stressful environment and or taking drugs of various types.

durianrider:

I got sick with adrenal problems when I was 15. This was shortly after having cancer and going through radiation treatments, I picked up a virus because my immune system was weakened from the treatments, and the virus triggered the adrenal problem - that is often how it starts (with a viral infection). At 15, I could barely get out of bed, and taking a shower was exhausting. My mother had addison's disease, so perhaps adrenal problems are genetic in my case. I never went to a doctor for this because my family was poor and we didn't have health insurance. The only reason I went to a doctor for the cancer is because the tumor was so large my mother couldn't not take me in. Other people paid for the treatments. So, I was never diagnosed and never put on drugs. I have been a health-fooder for a very long time because I have been trying to solve my rather severe health problems for a very long time. I find it offensive that you would imply that I was not helped by 811 because I stay up late or take (prescription?) drugs. Again, check with Doug Graham, because he has also found that 811 does not cure the adrenals.

It boggles my mind that someone who promotes such a healthy clean "enlightened" lifestyle would so casually trivialize another person's suffering.

No diet will cure anything. It is the body that can heal itself, provided you give it the conditions it needs to heal. 811 by itself is not enough condition for everyone to heal their issues, but for some it is.

But a diet like 811 is not easy for everyone to implement. Because it is low fat, and people are accustomed to high fat, it can be quite challenging. I believe for myself my body needed to go through some adaptation, which took some time. For me, my body adapted to a high fruit diet and I thrived. But I have seen many people who could not (or would not) adapt, and 811 never worked for them.

811 will not cure anything. It does provide a low toxin high nutrient diet, which can be instrumental in one's healing, provided they can figure out how to eat 811 and not feel deprived.

Control will not get you to your healing, nor with it get you to eating 811. I've seen too many people try to control their way into eating a healthy diet, and fail miserably. Its way better to allow the toxic elements of your diet to fall away by themselves, rather than to push them away.

Prana,

Forgive me if I am taking your post too personally...

I did not mean "cure" but "help". I am not trying to dissuade people in general from doing the 811. I am just trying to get the word out to those who have adrenal problems that the 811 will not help them. Doug Graham has said that fasting can help with adrenal problems. I have fasted, and it did help my asthma, which often is caused by adrenal problems - so maybe fasting helped my adrenal glands a little. I think I have rather severe adrenal fatigue, so perhaps it didn't completely resolve my problems for that reason.

Although I only got into raw foods in 2006 (and have been lurking on this board since then), I have been into health food since the early 1980's. I have benefitted tremendously from eating healthy (vegetarian, lots of organic produce, drinking wheatgrass juice). I am in my late 40's now, but appear to be in my early 30s. My hair is not grey. My dentists will comment on the excellent health of my teeth, when I occassionally go to the doctor, my bloodwork is always excellent. It's just that the fatigue was never helped.

I had no problem transitioning to raw foods. I felt more satisfied eating raw foods than eating cooked. When I learned about the 811 and tried that (in my continuing efforts to solve my fatigue problem), I again, had no trouble with the low fat regime. I followed the 811 to the letter for 3 months, no problem with the diet. I got sunshine. I could not do vigorous exercise, but would go on 1 hour long walks about every other day - that was the best I could do. I had read of your experience and wished I would be able to sleep like you did when you had your healing. But, I never could sleep more than 8 hours a day.

Maybe you will say that 3 months was not long enough! But, it was after the lack of improvements (and some worsening of my condition, which I discussed in an earlier post), that I finally put it all together and realized my problem was my adrenal glands. That is when I did a lot of research online and found Dr. Graham's posts on the matter on his board. It was very helpful to know that this was not my personal failure, but that the 811 is just not the right solution to this particular problem. I personally think the 811 is probably great for most people, and I am very happy for those of you who are thriving on it. I wish I were one of you. But, to imply that I was just not having success on it because I am a weak person is an incorrect assessment of me.

I am currently helping my condition not with drugs, but with bio-identical replacement hormones. Very very different from drugs. I am just replacing a hormone in my body that is supposed to be there. After decades of searching for a solution, I have finally found it. I wish someone on this board would be happy for me! Because the reduction in my suffering has been profound.

After learning about powerlifter's success with not just managing his adrenal fatigue but actually healing it, I am trying to see if I can do the same, and have taken his advice which includes taking specific herbs.

Since many people who get into raw foods are trying to heal their health conditions, one of which may be chronic fatigue which is sometimes due to adrenal fatigue. And since adrenal fatigue is not all that uncommon, I think it is helpful to share my experience in case someone reading this board also suspects they have adrenal fatigue.

Again, I am not putting down the 811 diet in general. I think it is a wonderful diet, and there are a lot of gorgeous, vital people out there who are demonstrating that.

Mindy

Mindy,

I am happy that you are doing better, and hope that you continue to improve. Your excellent method of coping with your serious health travails is inspiring, and I personally agree with what you are doing to heal yourself. I have gotten much from your posts here--thank you and best of health to you

I truly find it strange that 8-1-1 has so many practioners pushing it and making anecdotal claims without any published data to support it. If you go to Pub-Med, can you find one study, one, that compares health outcomes using 8-1-1 or a high fruit low fat diet to treat rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes, heart disease, etc. Fuhrman, Barnard, Goldhamer, McDougall, all vegan or near vegan physicians haven't published a lot. But they have published. Goldhamer is a D.C.,same as Graham. And has demonstrated the value of water fasting in treating blood pressure, esp when combined with a vegan diet.

What published data there is on long term fruit based raw vegans is a mixed bag, regarding the Giessen Study [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] Subjects had high carotene but low lycopene status. Moreover, among raw vegans consuming high fruit, data indicates that dental health is very poor. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Fuhrman and others have demonstrated using the value added with a supporting role for fruit, not a leading role in curing disease. I guess, notwithstanding the exchange I had with rab on the 80-10-10 thread, I would like to see more data and fewer unsupported claims.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2010 09:49PM by pborst.

In addition, remember that fructose is over 100 times more likely than glucose to form advanced glycation endproducts within the body which contribute to aging, suggesting that low fructose fruits are preferable such as berries, kiwi, citrus, apples and not high fructose fruits such as bananas, grapes, mangos, etc which need to be eaten in limited quantities to avoid AGE build up. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2010 10:02PM by pborst.

Hi Tamukha,

Thank you for your very kind words! Reading your post makes me happy

I've found it to be cathartic and therapeutic telling my story here, and I appreciate you for e-listening and giving your kind feedback.

Thanks again,
Mindy

Dont you love all these studies done using GMO HFCS and then people blame organic fruits for aging?

I constantly get told I look in my late teens. Most people are shocked when I say Im 33. Its funny.

I'm too tired to read all the previous posts.

Posting tons of info about solving chronic fatigue is like watching one of those depression commercials selling drugs. If you have these symptoms of depression then snap out of it and get your butt to the doctor's office and take our drugs! Or... if you experience chronic fatigue then stay alert and focused long enough to watch 45 videos, read 34 internet links, and study 14 books.

mindy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Tamukha,
>
> Thank you for your very kind words! Reading your
> post makes me happy
>
> I've found it to be cathartic and therapeutic
> telling my story here, and I appreciate you for
> e-listening and giving your kind feedback.
>
> Thanks again,

I found your experience useful and interesting Mindy, there are so many reasons for things,not all reasons will respond to the same thing

CFS is one of those labels that could be anything at all from serious life threatening chemical poisoning that has been undx to some one that simply has malaise/depression/fatigue and is under the weather but not ill in the real sense



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 11:20AM by Ariel55.

RocketShip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm too tired to read all the previous posts.
>
> Posting tons of info about solving chronic fatigue
> is like watching one of those depression
> commercials selling drugs. If you have these
> symptoms of depression then snap out of it and get
> your butt to the doctor's office and take our
> drugs! Or... if you experience chronic fatigue
> then stay alert and focused long enough to watch
> 45 videos, read 34 internet links, and study 14
> books.

Ha ha, you are right, CFS/ME is one of those things with thousands of causes and thousands of remedies, so in a way it is pointless to say one way works for everyone, everyone seems to have the answer for CFS it seems, it depends what is causing it, quite a few people dx medically with CFS have been found on autopsy to have a virus in the spinal cord, you just have to find what works best for you

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2010 06:49PM by flipperjan.

So Mindy, what is your action plan? What steps TODAY are you taking to improve your quality of life or are you just gonna whine?

Also it depends whether one means Chronic Fatigue or Chronic Fatigue syndrome. AS people re often talking about different things when they refer to CFS

Chronic Fatigue is fatigue for psychological reasons, but Chronic Fatigue Syndrome aka CFS has been classified by the WHO as an organic acquired multi systemic pathophysiological illness, which is a serious illness which people have died of

This is how the WHO organisation defines the two from Sophia and ME about a girl who died of it and was treated as psychiatric

[www.sophiaandme.org.uk]

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis /Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ME/CFS has been classified as a physical disease G93.3 since 1969.
-Fatigue Syndrome (chronic) (FS) is classified as a mental illness F48.
-The psychiatrists continue to successfully confuse, not only the public, but many doctors as well, by interchanging the above terms.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2010 04:12PM by Ariel55.

Great post Mindy.

Some people need to stop talking out their asses about conditions they have no experience with whatsoever.

durianrider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dont you love all these studies done using GMO
> HFCS and then people blame organic fruits for
> aging?
>


Hmmm... Harley, I don't believe my October 14 post ever claimed that organic fruits or conventionally grown fruit or GMO or nonGMO fruits were responsible for the study outcomes. Come on. It's a small study. RawPreston did a pretty good job of reviewing it when he and I debated it. And he made some very good points. The study is small. The veggies are older participants. One he missed is that honey is higher among the veggie group. But make no mistake. Higher fructose loading does produce more AGEs relative to glucose. Proceed at your own risk. And the honey notwithstanding, high fructose consumption is not a good thing. Fruit consumption is best optimized with low sugar fruits such as berries, melons, citrus, and kiwi. Best. Paul

[www.biomed.cas.cz]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2010 08:33PM by pborst.

BackAgain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great post Mindy.
>
> Some people need to stop talking out their asses
> about conditions they have no experience with
> whatsoever.

Backagain, just a reminder.

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The point is chronic fatigue is very complex and has many causes, from adrenal fatigue, viruses, other opportunistic infections such as candida overgrowth, hypothyoidism, nutritional deficiency, low neurotransmitters etc.

A good diet will always help but its not as simple as durian thinks just eat sweet carbs or if that doesnt work you just a junkie on drugs. Infact if you have adrenal fatigue your supposed to reduce or try to not eat high potassium foods such as bananas, so gorging on 20 odd bananas probably isnt a good idea if you truly have adrenal fatigue or any other adrenal disease such as addisons.

I am always tired. Do I have CFS? I don't know, I have no interest in having some doctor run tests on me (I've had recent blood tests, I'm good)...
I have symptoms of fibromyalgea. The constant pain is a source of fatigue, so that might be the case.

When I first went raw, I didn't know about 80-10-10. I was buying books, got a dehydrator, a juicer, dusted off my old Vitamix... and I made stuff. Amazing stuff. Gourmet raw food -- I lost 60 pounds, and I felt GREAT! My pain level dropped, I had energy, and I was enjoying it all.

Then, I went to a raw food retreat, where I met Dr. Graham. I sat through his entire series of talks on 80-10-10, and bought into it. I came home, and started working my way through his books, and tried eating low-fat, high fruit, his way.

I crashed and burned. My pain is back, my fatigue is back, and hey, look, about 30 pounds came back. Yes, I went back to cooked vegan for awhile, as I was feeling so very awful, I thought that I was going to die.

Is 80-10-10 to blame? No. I believe that for a lot of people, it is a great way to go. However, it is not for 100% of everyone.

In my situation, I think I need to just eat raw, comfortably, with enough essential fatty acids, etc., to heal my pain. Maybe after I've healed from fibro, I might move slowly back to a lower fat-higher fruit lifestyle, but for now, I think being raw might be more important than what style of raw I am. I know the cooked crap isn't doing it for me, either.

This is my experience. YMMV.

Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much
We are all in this together!
Namasté

RaeVynn,

I had a similar experience to your experience. I was eating SAD. but quit coffee. I then had massive fatigue, unable to digest foods, tired all the time and needing naps. Not surprising though, as I had overworked myself for decades, and became dependent on coffee to keep me going.

Going raw made the symptoms disappear. I was eating high fat gourmet raw. But I had dark rings under my eyes that wouldn't go away, and I looked underweight and unhealthy.

Then I heard Doug Graham speak. I checked my fat intake, and sure enough, I was eating over 70% fat. So I quit eating super high fats. Cut out the condiments. And like you, my symptoms returned.

But unlike you, because I had studied about detoxification, I realized I was having a healing crisis, and part of me was looking forward to having such a healing crisis. This time, the symptoms were worse than when I stopped coffee. But this is probably because with my high fat raw diet, my body had become better nourished than SAD, and I had more energy for healing. But I felt and looked worse than when I was detoxing from the coffee. My skin was grey by this point. And I couldn't function in my workplace.

So what I did was to take a break from work, since I was too fatigued to work anyway. I took 4 months off from work, and slept. Initially it was 18 hours of sleep a day. After a month of this sleeping, the need for sleep reduced by 2 hours a day. And the next month after that, another 2 hours less sleep needed. And another 2 less hours needed the next month.

Through all of this period of time, I had a regular personal yoga practice. It was yoga that gave me the impetus to quit coffee when I was eating SAD. And when my symptoms were really extreme after going low fat, the yoga gave me a sense of peacefulness that things were going to turn out OK.

And during that 4 month detox, my skin color came back. The dark rings were gone under my eyes. I began to gain weight. My energy was back.

After the detox I was eating around 20% fat. I wasn't ready to eat only 10% fat. It would take me about two years before I was comfortable eating 10% fat. And when it did come, it was quite easeful.