Supplements are exactly that, supplements to an already good diet. In the case of synthetic vitamins, these are mostly used when theres is a problem i.e deficiencies such as b12, D etc. It would take ages or impossible in some cases to rectify these via diet or lifestyle.

Liquid B12 and D3, they probably work but why not take them from their natural source, nature does not produce liquid B12 the folks at 80/10/10 and the natural hygienist would say. If you cannot make some food a mono meal it is not that optimal for the body. That is why supplements do not work, they cannot be eaten as a mono meal. "For lunch I had liquid B12"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2011 09:38AM by madinah.

Pretty much every vegan ive seen takes either b12 shots or sublinguals b12. Or posts on the forum that they have low b12 issues.

Its only natural aswell, as a vegan b12 poses an issue. What natural source of b12 would you recommend? D is a tricky issue as not everyone has access to quality sunlight. Here in the UK a large percentage as vitamin D deficient or low.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2011 09:41AM by powerlifer.

If vegans have to take shots to survive then veganism needs to be reexamined, may be it is not a natural way of eating.

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If vegans have to take shots to survive then
> veganism needs to be reexamined, may be it is not
> a natural way of eating.

Ive always had this thought myself. vegan diets are most likely one of the best for longevity and optimal health due to being based around plant foods but it is deficient in b12 so i guess it cant be considered natural to have to take a pill.

But its give and take, i don't mind taking a little sublingual b12 now and again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2011 10:44AM by powerlifer.

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If vegans have to take shots to survive then
> veganism needs to be reexamined, may be it is not
> a natural way of eating.


But we must all respectfully acknowledge that this is a vegan forum. There are plenty of other places to debate veganism, this isn't one.

Thank you coco. On that note, I understand that subligual B 12 is the only kind that is absorbed. Is that true? I saw B12 shots (a liquid vial) in the healthfood store but I put them down until I could educate myself.

februarygirl

Februarygirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you coco. On that note, I understand that
> subligual B 12 is the only kind that is absorbed.
> Is that true? I saw B12 shots (a liquid vial) in
> the healthfood store but I put them down until I
> could educate myself.

Its not the only kind that is absorbed but it is better for absorbtion than other oral b12 supplements.

I have the liquid sort and put it under my tongue but I sneak it into the kid's smoothies and they drink it as there is just no way they'd let me put that directly into their mouths. I sure hope they are absorbing it that way, that's the best I can do with them.

Years ago I used nasal B12. People thought that was weird, like I was snorting a drug. I guess in a sense its a drug, as I am sure it was the cyano kind of B12. I didn't know it at the time that there were a number of forms.

The B12 thing seems to be a peristant thing. I read about pernicious anemia in my Physiology book in relationship to blood. But to be fair, there was a commentary in a conventional nutritional book my sister in law has. It stated that vegetarians in some developing country never had any issue with B12. They thought it was do to drinking untreated water, and some bacteria in their intestines. But when these same people move to a western country they develop b12 problems. I thought that was so interesting. Possibly westerners are too chemically processed in and out, that is always something to consider.

Maybe it's the heavy bleach and flouride in the water here. I would not be surprised if drinking, showering and breathing in chlorine unbalances the system.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> madinah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If vegans have to take shots to survive then
> > veganism needs to be reexamined, may be it is
> not
> > a natural way of eating.
>
>
> But we must all respectfully acknowledge that this
> is a vegan forum. There are plenty of other places
> to debate veganism, this isn't one.

What best place to ask what veganism is if not at a vegan forum. If we wanted to know who the Egyptians are we ask Egyptians, they can best define themselves



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 02:24AM by madinah.

Believe me, this argument has been broached on the site many times. You can disagree with it all you like but it always ends up in posts and threads being deleted by the moderator. If you have non-vegan topics you want to discuss there are lots of sites where that is welcome or you can choose to communicate via PM with others here but I'm telling you, this never ends well on the forum. There are stanch vegans here and we all have to respect that. Not my rules BTW.

I am new to the site so I did not know that stating that Liquid B12 may not be optimal and natural was offensive to some vegans

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If vegans have to take shots to survive then
> veganism needs to be reexamined, may be it is not
> a natural way of eating.

Natural or not, that is what this forum supports. It seems you would like to argue this point but I'm telling you from past experience that it doesn't go over very well here.

I would also agree that it would be normal to debate such a thing as b12 issues on a vegan forum....in my own case as I originally opened this post I just thought it would be sensible to take some supplements while travelling because the body is exposed to some extra stresses and often restaurant food in India isn't that healthy...
I know a few vegans and none of them seem to have the B12 issues that people are talking about nor do they take supplements...I did not realise it was a big issue.

Madinah you said about getting vitamins from processing air and water - in what way is that possible? (breatharianism aside).

What I meant was that the body takes in raw material from the food, the air, and the water we eat, breath and drink and produces or synthesize vitamins and nutrients it cannot find directly. Examples are vitamins D and B12 from the bacteria inside the intestinal track. This is only possible if the digestive system functions optimally it is not in buying vitamins, that why cleansing or eating a cleansing diet is very important. We can survive on less food, local food if the system is cleansed and function optimally.
There is nothing that I said here that is against veganism, my point is that liquid B12 is not necessarily needed and is not natural

..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2011 01:07PM by coco.

LOL talking about B12 is fine.

It's this that won't fly here. Believe me, I think it myself sometimes. This is just not the place to debate it .

> If vegans have to take shots to survive then
> veganism needs to be reexamined, may be it is not
> a natural way of eating.[b/]

I think it is very relevant to ask at a vegan forum if there is a way to be pure vegan, are there pure vegans that do not need shots or liquid B12?

If we need pills or shots to supplement a diet then that diet is not optimal.

Coco,
"Maybe it's the heavy bleach and flouride in the water here. I would not be surprised if drinking, showering and breathing in chlorine unbalances the system."

I thought about that last night in the shower actually! I thought it very strange that most of us don't think about giving ourselves a scrub down with soap, and chlorine solution. One doctor recommened 'lever 2000' for some dry skin that I had. I just couldn't believe it. I looked at the composition list, I never saw such a lengthy list. I do best with soaps that have no coloring, perfume, and have like 3 items.

I think it all comes down to fear of microbes, and fear of body odor. Some people really need it. I know that I am not pure enough to go without it. And I appreciate that most people do it. I have reactions to most deorants, so I usually try to get away with minimal use, and hopefully not offend anyone.

Indescriminate use of antimicrobial soaps, lotions and creams seem to be all too common. Also along with over use of antibiotics. The professor has brought up the antibiotic thing several times in class. People often don't really need it, but the patient thinks that will make them recover faster. I am sure these things have a proper place, but it just seems way too over used.

Its actually quite profound actually the whole microbe thing. Its not inheriently bad. If it were not for microbes nothing would live. In fact I believe that the majority of living mass on the planet are microbes. In a sense we are made up of a colony of microbes, if you want to think of specialized cells. We all these cells cant exist seperately, i suppose thats the difference.

So i am wondering if the B12 thing is actually a manifestation of not accepting life as it is, and fear of microbes.

Mislu, when you think about it, cows are eating grass with bugs, bacteria, dirt etc all over it all day long and digesting it in their 4 stomachs. They are not deficient in B-12 but they are also not washing everything they eat, and their hands, and they @#$%& right in the field they then eat from. So... We with our weaker digestion mustn't eat dirty produce because of parasites, etc but there is obviously something missing between what we put into our mouths and how it nourishes our bodies.
Since some studies show that B12 can in fact be produced adequately in the digestive tract of humans I am left to assume that it's only our unhealthy habits that are hindering that. What is the solution? For us it is to supplement in whatever way suits us best and to look at how to refine not just diet but general lifestyle to ensure optimum living as far as we are able and comfortable to do. A shower filter is a great idea if one is bathing in city water, going flouride free, drinking filtered water (there are some filters that take out flouride) and taking care to keep the system clean, well nourished and active enough to do a good job of revitalizing itself. The body wants to be healthy and it only needs a little bit of help from us to attain that. That's what I believe to be true.

"Mislu, when you think about it, cows are eating grass with bugs, bacteria, dirt etc all over it all day long and digesting it in their 4 stomachs"

Maybe that is why pure vegans are having problems with B12 other related vitamins because in nature there is no such thing as pure veganism.

That's a big assumption. Worth examining though if one is curious enough.

And apparently the word p oop is a swear

yeah coco, it got blocked out in a post I made awhile ago too,lol... yet other similar words that most consider a swear, are not blocked, its kinda funny,lol

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Well, you can say crap and boob but p oop is a no-no I guess. Weird, wonder if it's because there were some threads exclusively about bowel movements on here a few years ago, ha.

lol, even then, I don't understand peoples squeamish-ness about a natural bodily function, oh, there are limits of course, even for me, in what im ok with when it comes to discussing fecal matter, but honestly, it seems strange that its a bit of a taboo topic on a forum that has a lot of concentration on the natural world... especially since some people may end up with very important questions having to do with bowel movements and the raw diet, yet be afraid to ask them do to the average response Ive seen over the almost year ive been on here...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

"I have reactions to most deorants, so I usually try to get away with minimal use, and hopefully not offend anyone."

I use Himalaya salt as a deoderant - It works pretty well....I might not rely on in if I was going for a job interview on a very hot day or something but for normal day to day use it seems fine for me...

Madinah,
""Mislu, when you think about it, cows are eating grass with bugs, bacteria, dirt etc all over it all day long and digesting it in their 4 stomachs"

I remember eating the best peach ever, it had very small worms in it. They were difficult to see, and I don't remember how I saw it. But I continued to eat it, as I figured that I had probably eaten a few already. I think organic produce has more insects and other life in it. Most people probably don't notice. And are not influenced negatively by this.

EWW! I am only ok with that so long as I don't notice. Call me squeamish but I have a revoltion of bugs or worms in my mouth. Ugh.

For deodorant try a light dusting of baking soda or a blend of baking soda and (organic) corn starch or arrowroot powder. A drop of essential oil goes a long way too.