I am only 95% raw so not yet worried about b12. Who out there feels like they need it?

My video to keep me inspired on my health quest: [www.youtube.com]

We all need it. Enough long term raw foodists have found they are deficient when it's started having a very negative impact on their health. Natasha St Michael, Kevin Gianni and his wife etc. By the time a deficiency has shown up you may have done yourself irreparable damage. I think it's dangerous to get too deeply immersed in the "Raw Foods Can Heal ANYTHING" dogma.

agreed

just had mine checked and it was 877. I take a sublingual.

david





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 01:39AM by dvdai.

39% of the US population has low b12 serum levels.
[www.ars.usda.gov]

I produced a video explaining Natasha's case.
[youtu.be]

Gianni never did b12 tests before he got into health. So he too, cant be objective. Also diets high in vitamin c can produce false negatives when it comes to b12 serum levels.

My last b12 test (last week) produced a serum b12 value of 1476. I do b12 injections as is standard of all cyclists/runners I train and race with.

My housemate is a raw meat eater since 2001. Last month we checked his b12 and he was deficient. I gave him a b12 injection that afternoon and now he self administers.

B12 injections are used by weight loss clinics and elite athletes internationally. They wont make up for late nights or over training though! lol!

Durian you keep misquoting that study, it was 39% of one state in the US and only 3000 volunteers took part. The state for all we know could be very low income poverty stricken i.e living on alot of processed microwave crap meals, heavy into drink and drugs etc. It certainly doesn't equate to 39% of the US anyway. All that study tells us is that 3000 from one state in the US have low b12 levels which although interesting certainly doesn't tell us much.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 10:35AM by powerlifer.

Pame'laVik'toria Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am only 95% raw so not yet worried about b12.
> Who out there feels like they need it?

Percentage raw is not the issue. Rather it is do you have a reliable dietary source of Vitamin B-12 in your diet? Harley's right that there is a prevalence of Vitamin B-12 in the general population, primarily the elderly. The NIH puts the estimate for the general population suffering from B-12 deficiency (rather than low B-12 levels) at somewhere between 1.5 and 15 percent [ods.od.nih.gov]. B-12 deficiency can be caused either by malnutrition (i.e. no B-12 in your diet) or malabsorption (something in you is keeping you from absorbing it). And these are not mutually exclusive, that is one can have both malnutrition and malabsorption at the same time.

The thing to remember is that for most at risk groups, malabsorption is the main cause of their deficiency, not malnutrition. Vegans are the exception. Our deficiency is primarily caused by malnutrition, no getting away from it. I regard comparisons to other at risk groups as something of a red herring. The absolute risk from not having adequate B-12 is very serious. And Vitamin B-12 deficiency is much more common among vegans than the general population.

One example: [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

"Mean serum vitamin B12 was highest among omnivores (281, 95% CI: 270-292 pmol/l), intermediate among vegetarians (182, 95% CI: 175-189 pmol/l) and lowest among vegans (122, 95% CI: 117-127 pmol/l). In all, 52% of vegans, 7% of vegetarians and one omnivore were classified as vitamin B12 deficient (defined as serum vitamin B12 <118 pmol/l)."

In Becoming Raw (pp 170-171), Davis and Melina report that in the Giessen Study, the Halleluah Acres study and the Finnish Study that virtually every vegan who didn't supplement has low serum B-12, many had deficiency symptoms (anemia).

Since raw vegan B-12 supplements are available and affordable, for me this is a no-brainer. However, if you choose not supplement, the alternative is to test for something called MMA methylmalonic acid, [www.veganhealth.org]. Serum b-12 levels themselves are not reliable since they can read b-12 analogues commonly found in seaweed or spirulina that are not absorbable and can actually harm the body. Read Jack Norris's description in the URL above if you want more detail and choose to test. You can work with your doctor and see if insurance will cover an MMA test. If not, you can always order it yourself without a doctor's order [www.directlabs.com]. The cost though is $120. That would pay for a lot of supplements .

Paul

I don't take b12 but I also am not sure I'm completely doing it right.. Well every morning I have barley and sunflower seeds that have the whole b complex as well as berry's I also eat that with corn or cashews because the tryptophan in the corn and cashews is essential for B vitamin digestion. I also take the raw vitamin by garden of life that had vitamin B12 in it as well.

Cherie, if you're taking a supplement with B12 in it you're taking a B12 supplement. You probably don't have anything to worry about. There is no B12 in any of the foods you mentioned though, there isn't a vegan source of dietary B12 at all.

I do.

That statistic seems to be spreading. I went to a vitamin shop last night with my partner. He wanted to ask the shop owner some questions, as he has a lot of info. He was feeling tired. well, that was a chance for him to push b12 supplements. He said that even if you ate meat every day one is likely to have b12 problems. And of course he claimed that it wasn't in a vegetarian diet, even one that included dairy. He said that my partners salmon eating habit wasn't enough. So naturally my partner wants to get b12 injections again. Of course the shop owner said that regular supplementation is a better option....looking towards the shelf

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That statistic seems to be spreading. I went to a
> vitamin shop last night with my partner. He wanted
> to ask the shop owner some questions, as he has a
> lot of info. He was feeling tired. well, that was
> a chance for him to push b12 supplements. He said
> that even if you ate meat every day one is likely
> to have b12 problems. And of course he claimed
> that it wasn't in a vegetarian diet, even one that
> included dairy. He said that my partners salmon
> eating habit wasn't enough. So naturally my
> partner wants to get b12 injections again. Of
> course the shop owner said that regular
> supplementation is a better option....looking
> towards the shelf

Aload of hogwash in my opinion, many vegans like to make out that its a common problem in meat eaters but it really isn't. I feel they do this to justify there own b12 supplementation alot of the time. Studies prove that it isn't all that common in meat eaters - pauls study was a good example.

With meat eaters who develop b12 deficiency it is almost always due to absorption issues because well they eat alot of b12 rich foods. Where as with vegans 9 times out of 10 its due to lack of dietary b12 rather than absorption issues because there is no vegan b12 source. Also many vegans will say they don't supplement at all, ive been vegan for X years and i don't need to supplement. This is because the liver can hold adequate stores of b12 for many years, which is why most vegans don't suffer b12 deficiency soon after starting 100%.

In my time as a SAD dieter, bodybuilder, martial artist(training with alot of pro athletes, fighters and footballers) years back i don't think i have ever came across one person in my time who ate a meat diet and has suffered from b12 anemia. Actually i tell a lie there was a friends gran and this is quite common as we age as stomach acid lowers. Switch the lid when i became vegan i have encountered literally hundreds and if we can include forums probably well into thousands of vegans with b12 problems which it is wise to supplement now and again if you are 100% vegan.

EDIT: I forgot to say none of these people supplemented, a few very top end pro footballers and MMA fighters i know cycle b12 shots now and again but they don't do this because there worried about there b12 levels. They use the b12 for its slight non stimulative energy/anti-fatigue properties. This is very common amongst pop stars who take to grueling music tours you will read that they do b12 shots and again this isn't because there worried about there b12 levels its for the above properties. Somewhere along the line this has been misinterpreted and people now think meat eating athletes are worried about there b12 also.

If there is one plus in a meat eating diet its that you don't need to supplement b12, but i happily take a little sublingual pill with the benefits i get on a vegan diet.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2011 01:35PM by powerlifer.

Cooked vegans have many sources of dietary b12. If they eat Rice Krispies, Fosted Flakes, or Cheerios, or any other breakast cereal, they are going to get b12. Nutritional yeast is fortified with b12. The SAD food is so dead that the processed food vendors are always enriching or fortifying their foods with vitamins and minerals so that there is some nutrition in their products.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cooked vegans have many sources of dietary b12. If
> they eat Rice Krispies, Fosted Flakes, or
> Cheerios, or any other breakast cereal, they are
> going to get b12. Nutritional yeast is fortified
> with b12. The SAD food is so dead that the
> processed food vendors are always enriching or
> fortifying their foods with vitamins and minerals
> so that there is some nutrition in their products.

This is true for cooked vegans and where i tend to get some of my b12 as it saves buying supplements.

But minus some cereals and even then most of them dont contain b12 as i live with SAD eaters. I cant think of one SAD product that is common which contains b12 other than kellogs cereals, but yeah they are fortified with other b vitamins and usually vitamin D.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2011 02:13PM by powerlifer.

"The SAD food is so dead that the processed food vendors are always enriching or fortifying their foods with vitamins and minerals so that there is some nutrition in their products."

I sometimes wonder about commercial food production in general. Conventional produce often seems to be lacking in taste and vitality. Organic is better, but nothing beats fresh wild...but I have very little chance of getting wild stuff here, I really, really miss it!

Glad the site is back up!!!

So it seems that we can be pretty sure that we don't get any B12 form plant foods, at least under the usual circumstances. But what about mushrooms, I noticed on nutritiondata that mushrooms have small amounts of b12.

Also, does any one know if any new info came out lately about the b12 that is suposedly produced in the intestines by bacteria? This theory still remains unproven one way or the other. Right now its looking like we cannot produce enough b12 in the gut. However, that being said, how many of the vegans who were tested low in B12, have actually put in the effort to do a real detoxification program for the stomach and bowels? Few people, even LFRV people, have done what is neccessary to clean all the lymphatic stagnation from their dairy days, out of the digestive system...

Workoutman,
What I have read about b12 in the intestines and colon is that some people produce it, but thats not really the limitation. The theory is that its not absorbed where its produced or lower.

Its a great question however if any of these studies have been done on fruitarians from birth or raw vegans who have done the internal cleaning. I think it would be fantastic to finally show that its not a question.

This is the first time I read Prana suggesting some cooked, processed products? I will just say that I am not 100% raw vegan now (very close to it, though). Also, the source of B12 that I use is dependable and very healthy, but due to the policy of the forum, I will not discuss it.
I have found my balance, and I feel great.

The intestines do produce a small amount of B12 from what ive read but nowhere near enough to stave off deficiency.

The digestive system doesn't really work like that, i.e building up stores from your old eating habits.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Rab,
I can't really speak for prana, but I didn't read his statement like that. So hopefully he wil clarify what he said. But I think he was remarking about something powerlifter said.

Well, usually I really value Prana's opinion and I really appreciate his experience and sound advice. He has helped me a lot with establishing my own way of raw diet. So I tend to go quickly through some other messages sometimes, but I always carefully read what he has to say.

My husband is a cooked food vegan and regularly eats B12-fortified yeast flakes sprinkled on stuff that he cooks. I'm a raw food vegan, so I supplement with a vegan B12 product.

Hi
I take B12 every day and it has one side effect worth noting. I live in Florida where mosquitos can be a nuisance, getting into the house and biting me in my sleep or when I am trying to sit outdooors at night. I noticed that my neighbor never got mosquito bites and he told me that it was due to the fact that he takes sublingual B12 every day. He even sleeps outside at night in an area that is totally open and never has a bite. I have been taking his advice for about a year and so far I have not had a single mosquito bite. I am also completely vegan and would never do anything to risk my health so I supplement for that reason also. It's just a tiny pill that dissolves under my tongue, it tastes good, and it's inexpensive. I have always taken vitamins so this doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
Melissa Halsted

Angelpie,
What form of b12 are you using? I recently read about the cyano version is actually not very useful. Your body has to convert it to the methyl version. Researchers thought for a long time that the cyano version was natural, but it actually was changed by the process of isolation. So its believed that the methyl version is what is what is needed and appears in nature. The really cheap vitamins and what is used in cereals etc is usually the cyano version.

Angel that is amazing. I am mosquito food. There could be a group of soft skinned 5 year old kids hovering nearby and I swear, every mozzie within a 10 mile radius will ignore them and flock right to me. I've always had this problem, long before eating healthy, even as a cigarette smoker (I always hoped the nasty smoke would repel them). Now that I'm cleaner and healthier the problem remains.

Maybe I should try B12. If everyone is as deficient as they say I probably need it anyway. Are the pills as good as the shots? I can't get the shots.

The sublingual pills aren't as good as the shots but there still good and effective.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

If you are supplementing for b12 with pills or shots your diet may not be natural and optimal



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2011 05:45PM by RawPracticalist.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are supplementing for b12 with pills or
> shots your diet may not be natural and optimal

Without getting into the debate of whether vegan lifestyle is natural or not as i agree having no option but to supplement a vitamin isn't exactly natural.

What source of b12 do you use out of interest, you never answered this last time rawpracticalist?

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

To Corathegreen: My understanding is that people with a deficiency caused by malabsorption (usually older meateaters) have to take shots to get the B12 into their bloodstream, since their guts can't absorb it. But a supplement is sufficient for people who lack B12 only because of a deficiency in their diets (raw food vegans).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2011 07:07PM by suncloud.

I use sublingual B12 from Vitamin World 2500 mcg daily. It is the Cyanocobalamin that Mislu states is inferior. It works for me and yes, it is very inexpensive. Due to the fact that it is 41,667% of what a person needs per day, I am fairly confident that enough is being absorbed. I have read that you can't overdose on B12 so I am not concerned about the high percentage of the daily value. I feel great and I still have had not one mosquito bite and my other family members who don't take this have welts all over them If anyone has a recommendation for a better sublingual B12 that is cost efficient, let me know.
Melissa Halsted