HH, if there are humane hen keepers (neighbors, small farms, certified humane, our own urban chicken coops), then the collection of eggs and the keeping of chickens is not harmful to the birds, no? Obviously, people are vegan for more reasons than humane treatment issues. But following your logic, do you really see a parallel between humane eggs and possibly hurting the deer during the cultivation of the antlers? I don't!

Rawalice could we please refrain from religious slandering from the discussions?

It doesnt lend anything to the discussion and is kinda insulting to any of us here who are muslims or anybody reading and lurking who may be muslims. I would hate to think someone reading here thinks we are intolerant.

Thanks so much !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

This board is corrupted by your lies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 11:58PM by rawalice.

Note to self: Only read threads started by Powerlifer, PBorst, and Geo. Send vibes to the site admin suggesting that they create an ignore the angry ovo raw vegan misandrist clique option.

THE SPACE-SHIP IS COMING!!!!!

rawalice would you care to elaborate? what exactly have I corrupted with my lies? what lies?

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

If you would restore my post perhaps we can discuss it. Permission to repost a reasonable facsimile?

The moderator of the forum removed your post. If you are unfamiliar with the rules of the forum they are listed for you here:

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Number 2 on the list " Rude, offensive, insulting or vulgar posts."
And number 7 "Slander of individuals or Organizations"

Inappropriate comments about religious groups fall under those categories.

I don't believe in keeping animals for human use. It's impossible for me to take a side in this debate. It's not in my DNA. What I don't understand is why do people who aren't even vegan frequent this site? And worst of all, why are they allowed to bully like they do? It's like the Gestapo. Don't we get @#$%& with enough in the real world?

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH, if there are humane hen keepers (neighbors,
> small farms, certified humane, our own urban
> chicken coops), then the collection of eggs and
> the keeping of chickens is not harmful to the
> birds, no? Obviously, people are vegan for more
> reasons than humane treatment issues. But
> following your logic, do you really see a parallel
> between humane eggs and possibly hurting the deer
> during the cultivation of the antlers? I don't!

RawAlice : I am not a moderator nor have ever been one nor profess to pretend im one. My request for you to refrain from religious slandering comes from my desire as a member to keep the forums here a place where anyone of any religious faction can feel comfortable and accepted to discuss raw foods . That said .. you will have to ask the forum admin for the permission to repost ..not me


rawalice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you would restore my post perhaps we can
> discuss it. Permission to repost a reasonable
> facsimile?

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

I'm vegan, so in a sense, it's kind of all the same to me, because it really is all animal exploitation; but from another point of view (not mine), I can see how there are degrees to animal exploitation.

Definitely, there's a very obvious measure of suffering involved in the exploitation of these deer. If we were to watch the process, we would see their resistance, we would see them beaten or tasered or whatever it took to restrain them, we would hear their cries, we would see the blood and the wounds. And they're mammals, like us.

We don't see all that with eggs of course. Eggs aren't bloody. They don't scream out. They certainly don't resist. They pretty much seem like nonentities - except for food for us of course.

But we're assuming a lot. For one thing, we're assuming that the mother chickens don't mind us taking their eggs,... or we're not really thinking about it. And of course, some chickens really don't seem to care. They lay and leave. But under half-decent conditions, most others stay with their eggs (until we take them). Wild birds build nests and sit on their eggs or protect their eggs and keep them warm in some manner until they hatch. (Penguins are amazing in this regard.)

So either birds are total automatons and they don't really think or feel at all, and they're doing all this because of some dumb, thoughtless automaton instinct... OR yes, they do care (with the exception of those who have been traumatized/corrupted by generations of captivity, which is not a particularly great thing either).

Once the eggs have hatched and we can see those cute fuzzy little baby chicks, it's easier for us to believe that birds know what they're doing (during feeding, etc.). We also feel a little more sad if we see a baby bird crushed than if we see an egg crushed. Why should this be so? It's probably because we never see our OWN eggs. We simply can't relate to the idea that maybe an egg can be "cute" or "loveable". But birds DO see their own eggs. It's very possible that birds actually do know that inside that little egg is their little baby. THEIR LITTLE BABY. (Their little baby!)

Now, the egg itself: We assume it's not feeling any pain, of course. Why would anyone ever think otherwise? I looked up "nerve development in chicken eggs" and found this website that says: the nervous system begins to develop 21 hours after the egg is laid. Well, I confess, I don't know if that means the embryo may feel pain or not.

[msucares.com]

My husband and I were discussing this, and here's a point he just brought up: He simply doesn't buy the argument that it's OK to eat eggs that were farmed under "humane" circumstances, because even if really humane circumstances existed (which is questionable, since these animals are always in captivity), still, when people - and especially children - are egg-eaters, most are not going to put down a packaged something that includes eggs, or refuse an omelette at a restaurant, or say no to a deviled egg at a party - no matter where it comes from.

And we all know that farm-fresh eggs is where this all started, and it's led to the farm factories we have now.

We simply can't be a good example to others of really humane treatment towards animals when we're eating their embryos.

And what does it do to the human psyche when we partake in animal exploitation? What does it do to us? What HAS it done to us already, whenever we really just don't care? What does it pass on to our children in the way of empathy and compassion for those who are vulnerable to our aggression?

One last kind of off-the-wall thought: Whoever came up with the word "humane" anyway? Isn't it supposed to mean something like acting really kindly towards others? I think maybe, until we humans have earned a better place in the cycle of life, maybe we should use the word "dolphane" or even "chickane". Those animals seem to be generally more capable of making it though life without taking more than they need.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2012 08:01AM by suncloud.

Everyones crazy posting and I'm the one that gets censored. This is so typical.
By the way, the Sacred Elk says that the velvet is for their young, but if they're plentiful in any given area, and are hunted in a sacred manner, they would rather it not be wasted. Whose afraid of the truth? Does that mean permission granted?

Guess I can't stop yet. Here's another thing that most people usually don't think about: Where are all the ROOSTERS among those egg-laying hens?

Well, they're usually dead. It works like this: You get your baby chicks. They're really cute. But the male chicks grow up to be roosters, and since roosters can't live together in captivity without fighting, at some point you have to kill all your males.

Eating eggs is never just about eating eggs. It's about killing animals. And it happens even when the eggs are "free range".

Or, in Hawaii and other places around the globe, many people have found a different solution. They separate the roosters and keep them. They tether their ankles and give each rooster their own tiny shed with a piece of tin over the top. They feed them the best food and take great pride in their strength and appearance. Some people have maybe a hundred or so of these tethered roosters in their yards.

Then the people meet with other rooster-loving people in a secret place, usually at night, somewhere on a vacant lot. There's much drinking, much gambling, and much meth. The roosters' natural spurs have been removed from their legs and are now replaced with specially fashioned razors. Then the people throw two roosters into a "cockpit" and watch them rip each other apart. The surviving rooster makes a lot of money for his owner.

No shame. None at all. It's considered a "traditional" sport (though it actually came to Hawaii and the Phillipines from Europe). The next day, there's huli chicken at a roadside stand.

And the eggs are "free range."

Either way, cockfights or not, roosters die when we eat eggs.

The fact is, one thing can lead to another. A whole lot depends on the direction we start out with in the first place.

I have to say that it probably takes a much crueler, meaner person to saw into the skin and bones of a living deer than to eat an egg. That's because the deer's pain is so much more obvious, and because inflicting the pain takes a lot more effort. But this brings us back to degrees; and as a vegan, it's just not where I want to be. There's too much else at stake. We simply can't go on as we have and expect ourselves and our planet to survive.

At this point in time, we really do have enough evidence to know that we are not risking our own health when we are vegan. Our health is possibly much more at risk when we are not.

Here's a link to an article about a cockfight on Molokai and the people who attend. (Below the link is another link to a video of a cockfight, but minus the razors, which are more typically present). As you can see, the spectators think it's all a matter of degree, and therefore find nothing wrong with cockfighting. These are probably good people in many other ways. We can read this article and perhaps easily feel at home in their mindset. There's no wrong or right here. But who do we want to be?

[themolokainews.com]

[www.youtube.com]

thank you for those posts suncloud ! Jamie Oliver (not vegan) did a show on chickens one time and had an audience sit waiting for their meal while he showed them live what happened to male chicks on factory egg farms. (its 6 parts here [www.youtube.com])

on stage he gas-killed a bunch of them in a clear plastic box .. some of the audience cried , some left , most look horrified , some were complacent. now gas killing them is probably the most less horrifying way these chicks would die .. in reality most of the male chicks are just trundled along on a conveyor belt and dropped into a chopper live for chicken meal . I am crying as I type this its just so sickening [www.youtube.com]

the show was horrifying to me .. very disturbing .. on one hand i just felt sick about it .. on the other i felt good for him show these people some reality

i came away from it with very mixed feelings , i beleive hes done similar shows with cows and pigs

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2012 05:46PM by Jgunn.

I don't eat meat, but at the same time, I can't say if I was ever starving and had meat available that I wouldn't eat it. I respect veganism. I even tried it for awhile. I do though. have trouble respecting a narrow mind. (Not that that can't possibly have it's good purposes too for oneself, but when dealing with others..) I respect people's choice to eat meat, but it changes when the planet is threatened, or the animals are treated without regard to their sacredness. I see eggs as a gift of nature. The cycle of life and death goes so far beyond a few exploited roosters. For all we know, those roosters enjoy the fight and don't care whether they live or die.

I'm with you in respecting people's food choices. I'm not a preacher and open-mindedness is good for the health. Still, I have no clue why carnivores would monopolize a raw vegan board, harass them, and pass themselves off THE authorities. I actually have no problem with carnivores spending time on a raw vegan board. When I look at the the paleo crowd, I see people who could use a lot of help with the produce end of their diet. They just need to keep it to themselves and be respectful.

rawalice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't eat meat, but at the same time, I can't
> say if I was ever starving and had meat available
> that I wouldn't eat it. I respect veganism. I even
> tried it for awhile. I do though. have trouble
> respecting a narrow mind. (Not that that can't
> possibly have it's good purposes too for oneself,
> but when dealing with others..) I respect people's
> choice to eat meat, but it changes when the planet
> is threatened, or the animals are treated without
> regard to their sacredness. I see eggs as a gift
> of nature. The cycle of life and death goes so far
> beyond a few exploited roosters. For all we know,
> those roosters enjoy the fight and don't care
> whether they live or die.

HH, I don't equate eating eggs and being a "carnivore," if that's what you are implying. As I said before, everyone has their own path and reason for doing things. I respect animals' lives but to take it as far as worrying about the roosters? It's just a bit too involved for me. I try to do the best I can and eat a diet which resonates with me.

Which brings me to...what about UNfertilized eggs? A brand I buy has both types so I assume that hens lay eggs regardless. Maybe when they're ovulating? LOL

Thank you so much for your comments Jgunn.

Well, that's interesting BananaWho. I had just assumed that everyone would worry about the roosters. I don't know why. I think maybe each person makes a decision whether they want to think about these things or not. And/or maybe it has to do with a fear of giving up something a person thinks they absolutely need. Meanwhile, I'm happily entering my 26th year as an absolute vegan, and I'm very happy with my health and appearance at this point. I don't know the reason for a lot of things, but I made up my mind many many years ago, that I would forever have faith in the human potential and I would never lose faith in it no matter what.

I'm going to be extremely busy for the next 2 1/2 years, as I'll be taking several intense nutrition therapy courses and spending considerable time (1200 hours) at facilities providing long term care, diabetic outreach, WIC, etc. I already need more sleep than I've been getting. At the end of that period of time, I hope to be a registered dietitian (my life's dream!). I am very thankful to all of the local dietitians where I live, who are helping to make this dream come true for me. They all eat meat, yet they all know I'm vegan.

So I'll have to say goodbye for a while to everyone here, all of you my sweethearts no matter what your particular beliefs or practices. I wish you all fine passage on your voyages through life, and I hope we may meet again! Goodbye.....



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2012 07:54PM by suncloud.

It's certainly not vegan.


banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH, I don't equate eating eggs and being a
> "carnivore," if that's what you are implying. As I
> said before, everyone has their own path and
> reason for doing things. I respect animals' lives
> but to take it as far as worrying about the
> roosters? It's just a bit too involved for me. I
> try to do the best I can and eat a diet which
> resonates with me.
>
> Which brings me to...what about UNfertilized eggs?
> A brand I buy has both types so I assume that hens
> lay eggs regardless. Maybe when they're ovulating?
> LOL

Suncloud very sorry to see you go .. i hope you dont be a stranger! sending you a PM !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Suncloud, I hope you read this before you go on your hiatus (and good luck with your endeavors). I don't mean that I don't care about roosters but your claims sound a bit exaggerated. I doubt all roosters end up in cockfighting rings. I also would imagine I could go through your list of purchases and find something that is not kosher, too. The rooster thing is a bit abstract for me to never eat an egg. And just because you have done so well with vegan, let's allow for differences. Natasha is a great example of someone who was vegan all the way for years and years and ended up eating stuff I am sure she had to force herself to eat.

Regarding ethics and purchases, do you own an Apple computer? I never will, after reading about the horrible working conditions in China. I realize that some other computer companies may have similar issues, but if I know about a company, I just cannot do business with them. Same with Gap/Old Navy.

HH, I have never claimed to be vegan, my friend. I have been vegan in the past and perhaps will do so in the future, but I don't pose as anything other than where I am at right now. I also don't promote a particular eating style. This was simply about animal products which may be harmful to collect.

chicken's turn!

rawalice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chicken's turn!


Huh? LOL! Bawk! Bawk! Bawk!

Suncloud I am so sorry to see you go - I have ALWAYS valued your contributions and your experience so much.

As a true vegan and a real promoter of animal welfare you will be very much missed.

I find it increasingly hard to communicate with people who are vegan only for their own health and welfare of animals is a lucky byproduct which doesn't worry them one way or the other.

I find unfertilized eggs disgusting personally. I guess they're prized in some places. Grody to the max.

I've met vegans who were in such great health, so strong and robust, you would never imagine they were vegan. It probably has a lot to do with personal chemistry as well. When i went vegan, I felt so dried out and bad. But for others, it makes them feel good. Who knows.

Good luck suncloud. I hope your dietician thing goes well. It sounds like a nightmare to have to go through for a vegan though considering the majority. Wouldn't you rather be a swim coach? It helps to get rid of stuff.