I guess some people would rather consume dogma than reality. That's fine with me. Lots of things work differently in theory than they do in practice.

And I did say "They will choose cake, raw or cooked, anytime."

Maybe the parents have done a poor job. Children should gravitate naturally to raw juicy fruits

I love garlic - just a tiny bit chopped up on my salads. I love the flavour (if it is shootong a green bit out of the top it is better to plant it than to eat it as it will be quite bitter) - I do not suffer any ill effects from eating it - I feel good eating it.

I also quite like cumin seeds and coriander seeds - fresh - not cooked. And various other spices. I don't go along with this idea that if you can't eat a spoonful in one mouthful then it isn't food.

I can't see the problem - if you like these things - fine - if you don't then don't eat them but why go around saying other people shouldn't eat them and that they are bad for you?

RawPracticalist - i can only assume that you don't have children - there can be no other excuse for such a daft comment.

I would still love to know from why the medicinal aspects of fruit/vegetables are good but from a herb or spice which often share the same compounds is evil, drug, the same as smoking cigarettes and toxic ?.

If someone can answer that id probably understand it more. This is where Shelton didn't understand the basic chemical make up of food, there is more to plant foods than just the nutrients they contain, but it could have been that nutritional science was very behind in those days. Another reason to move on and adapt in my opinion. We now know from a wealth of studies that foods like garlic, onions, broccoli/cruciferous vegetables, turmeric etc are some of the most potent anti-cancer foods on the planet.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2012 10:42AM by powerlifer.

I do not eat garlic, onions, and herbs, there is no need to. There are so many nutritious food to choose from.
Fighting cancer? When you are healthy there is no need to fight cancer with every food you eat. When you get tears in your eyes after a meal, there is a problem.

Cancer prevention was what i meant, these foods above are documented as being not only some of the best for cancer prevention but also for cardiovascular disease prevention.

Not all herbs and spices are warming or hot either so the analogy that onions make your eyes water is irrelevant when there a number of other spices and herbs to choose from, all with documented health benefits.

Why exercise, why do anything ?, because a healthy lifestyle incorporates as many healthy elements as possible and for me that includes herbs, spices, exercise, skin brushing, rebounding, a diet rich in plant foods such as fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds and more.

Each to their own no one is forcing the above on anyone, but skewed logic isn't going to change that the majority of the common herbs and spices especially the ones used for culinary reasons are not toxic especially in the amounts they are used and have been proven time and time again as being beneficial. I find it worrying that people compare garlic and onions with smoking cigarettes and drug use.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2012 01:21PM by powerlifer.

For me it is a different approach, digestion takes already a lot of energy, I do not need to irritates my body at each meal with spices, herbs, and garlic.

There are many who have spent thousands to build doomsday bunkers, they are still waiting instead of enjoying life

See i view it from another approach as said before when we discussed black pepper, it doesn't actually cause more energy to be expended, it actually aids the body to uptake various nutrients and increase their bioavailibility. You get more bang for your buck.

Which is pretty impressive, some achieve their respective digestive benefits by increasing bile flow, which again isn't a bad thing for most supporting liver and gallbladder health. Other herbs achieve their digestive aid benefits from the bitter taste which stimulates the release of stomach acid, bile and other pancreatic digestive enzymes. Just because cayenne and possibly one or two other herbs/foods achieve their digestive aid proprties by irritating the body doesnt meant they all do.

Again the above approaches aid the body they don't hinder it. Herbs and spices are also good concentrated sources of a wide scope of nutrients.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2012 02:57PM by powerlifer.

I love garlic.....BUT, Dr cousens has also found that we shouldn't use it everyday as it actually reduces our good biotics in our intestines, and reduces the overall strength of our internal probiotics. I've been fighting the use but dang its so addictive and yummy! He also states that it affects the balance between left and right brain. We should all listen to things with an open mind. And not let simple things like "garlic cures cancer". if you are raw, and don't eat animal protein at all, then guess what, you ain't gettin cancer anyway. This is about ultimate nutrition, not old wives tales being used to block new scientific knowledge.
if you are worried about cancer garlic is not the end all cure. Green juice fasting is!

By the time the garlic reaches the majority of the gut flora it is well diluted by then and garlic aswell as onions are also considered one of the top prebiotic foods which feed and stimulate the activity of gut floa.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

I’ve tried to post this older post of mine from this very website yesterday and it was suspected of being spam and has to be reviewed. Well, it still hasn’t appeared yet, so I’m going to post it in 2 sections hoping that they both are not viewed as spam.

The Problems of Natural Hygiene...Does Natural Hygiene Help Or Hurt The Raw Food Movement?
John Rose (---.245.205.112.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 08-13-02 17:45

Personally, I think that Natural Hygiene (NH) is as close to 100% as anything I have ever studied and it has helped me understand everything else, but just like everything else, it is not 100%...NH has not studied everything adequately enough to have an informed opinion about everything.

Why I like NH...

One of the many reasons why I like NH is because NH tries to look at the big picture and they understand that our way of life is the root to most of our problems. NH understands that raw food and fasting will eliminate most of the suffering on this planet simply by removing the causes and its residues. The question that I ask is how well does NH look at the big picture? Are there any areas that NH could improve on? Does NH really understand all of the things that it pooh-poohs? Has NH adequately researched and studied other fields of medicine, especially Vibrational Medicine?

Why I do not like NH...

There are only a few things that I do not like about NH and I bring them up in the hopes that awareness will initiate change. NH already takes a lot of heat from the raw foodist who are not 100% raw and from those who have never fasted, so the last thing that NH wants to do is to alienate more people by repeating some of the same old arguments that do not even make sense. NH does look at the big picture, but NH still has a few trees blocking their views on some items. This unwillingness to see the flaw in their arguments undermines their efforts for spreading this great message of how to live.

Here is a list of a few things that I would like to see NH change about themselves, especially the same old arguments that do not even make sense...

1) Water fasting is the only way to fast...juice fasting is not acceptable.
2) All disease is based on toxicity...deficiencies are the result of toxicity.
3) The body does not need any help in healing.
4) All suppression of symptoms is bad.
5) All herbs are toxic.

...to be continued...

Now here’s the 2nd half of my post from above…

1) Water fasting is the only way to fast...juice fasting is not acceptable.

This is my biggest gripe with NH. Imo, NH does not recognize that water fasting, which is one of the two main things that NH teaches, is not a workable solution for the masses at this time. This could all change very soon thanks to a recent water fasting study done by Dr. Joel Fuhrman [s/b Dr. Alan Goldhammer], but until this time does come, we must accept the sad fact that most people are either unwilling (terrified of the idea) or unable (no time and/or money) to do a water fast. If NH continues to ignore this reality, NH will never have a chance of appealing to more people, unless, of course, something comes about from this recent water fasting study.

As most people on this BB know, I am a huge proponent of fasting, both on water and juices, and I agree with Herbert Shelton that fasting is a great preparation for a better way of life. On page 121 of "Fasting For Renewal of Life" Herbert Shelton writes, "The fast was understood to provide the change-over from an old life to a new one. Today, there is no better way to change from a conventional way of life to a Hygienic way of living than to begin the change with a fast. Nothing else will clear away old habits of thinking and acting, break old habits, sharpen the senses of taste and smell, and prepare one for a different and uncondimented and unsalted diet like the fast. Through the fast, one acquires a new vision of life and prepares oneself for a new mode of existence."

These very sentiments are reflected by Dr. Joel Fuhrman, "In the fasting study that is near completion, there is a control group treated with the same dietary advice, which did not fast. We were all surprised how little results they achieved compared to the fasted group."

Oddly enough, NH is blinded by the big picture...NH thinks that it has the big picture...whatever worked in the past will work in the future... this is true to an extent, but the transition from where we are at now to where we need to be has to take into account all of our performance factors and NH is not considering all of these performance factors. There are two main factors that determine how well any of us do anything in life and those two main factors are our Willingness and our Ableness. When it comes to water fasting, most people lack the Ability...they lack the Knowledge...they lack the Time...they lack the Money, and most people also lack the Willingness...they are SCARED to death of fasting...they are NOT Willing to even entertain the idea of fasting let alone are they Willing to apply this knowledge if they are ever lucky enough to stumble upon it.

If NH or anyone's interpretation of NH cannot accept the fact that water fasting is NOT an option for most people right now and if they continue to ignore this reality, then they are handcuffing themselves and doing everyone an injustice by not learning how to modify their message to help make this knowledge more acceptable to the masses. Juice fasting is a simple modification that produces incredible results. NH can still insist that water fasting is the ideal way to fast according to NH, and that juice fasting can be used to help prepare people for water fasting if indeed water fasting is superior to juice fasting. Personally and professionally, I am not convinced that water fasting is superior to juice fasting. In fact, I agree with Dr. Otto H. F. Buchinger, who has supervised more fast than any other doctor (over 80,000 fasts), and says that fasting on the fresh raw juices of fruits and vegetables results in much faster recovery from diseases and more effective cleansing and rejuvenation of the tissues than does the traditional water fast.

In summary, NH does not consider that one of the two main things that it promotes, which is water fasting, is not well received at this time and that juice fasting could take off in ways that water fasting cannot do, and once they do a juice fast, they will be more receptive to the way we should live in the future by eating nothing but raw foods and water fasting when needed, and if water fasting is not practical or proven beyond a doubt inferior to juice fasting in some situations, then they will do a juice fast.

2) All disease is based on toxicity...deficiencies are the result of toxicity.

I understand what Shelton meant when he said that all disease is based on toxicity and that deficiencies would not exist if we were not toxic and we were all living in an unpolluted environment. Unfortunately, we do live in a toxic and depleted environment. To ignore this reality just makes NH look ignorant. A good example of our depleted environment is B12. According to Dr. Doug Graham, "Instead, it appears we have depleted our environment of B12. It used to be in the air, water and food we ate. Now it is almost nowhere. B12 deficiency is on the rise, both amongst carnivore and vegetarians." So at least some Natural Hygienist recognize the deficiency issue.

Another good example of our depleted environment is the one by the Mad Cowboy...
"I was involved in agriculture at a time when the message was "Get bigger and better or get out." I was educated in modern agriculture, and I can tell you from firsthand experience it is not sustainable. I followed all the modern advice and turned a small organic family farm into a large corporate chemical farm with a thousand range cows, five-thousand head of cattle in a factory feedlot, thousands of acres of crops, and as many as thirty employees. I saw the organic soil go from a living productive base to sterile, chemical-saturated mon-cultural ground because of my so-called modern methods."

[madcowboy.com]
"For some reason, I kept thinking about the soil--the magnetic feel of cool, dark, loamy, worm-laden soil in my hands. I’d grown up with my hands in that soil, and I’d always liked the feeling so much, I rarely troubled to wash them. I thought about how rich the soil had looked when I was a kid. It didn’t look like that anymore. Now it crumbled in my hands. It was thin as sand. There were no more worms in it. After all the tons of herbicides and pesticides and chemical fertilizer I’d poured into it, the soil looked more like asbestos. The trees on and around the farm were dying. The birds were gone. The farm was no longer a living, breathing thing; it was an increasingly precarious chemical equation. I made up my mind then and there that no matter what the outcome of my operation, I’d dedicate the rest of my life to restoring the land to what it had been when I’d had the good fortune to be born to it."
[madcowboy.com]

3) The body does not need any help in healing.

Some people are so toxic and deficient that their bodies do need help. When our colons, our livers and our kidneys are severely impaired, and when our bodies are extremely deficient, healing cannot only be uncomfortable, but also life threatening. There is no need to suffer just because we believe that water fasting and raw foods are our only options.

4) All suppression of symptoms is bad.

Some symptoms are life threatening and most symptoms are no longer needed once the sufferer sees the errors of their ways and decides to change them. Cancer is a good example of symptoms that are life threatening. These people do not have much time to live and they need to detox as quickly as their bodies will allow them. Dr. Max Gerson understood this and is why he used the juices and the coffee enemas. Dr. Gerson knew that all drugs were liver toxic and if someone came to his clinic in a lot of pain, Gerson would immediately get them off their pain killers, and he would give them coffee enemas as often as needed...up to every 2 hours....12 times a day VS the 4 to 5 coffee enemas that he would give his other cancer patients. Coffee enemas were also used during the war for the soldiers who were shot when they ran out of morphine.

In conclusion, suppressing some symptoms may be acceptable and desirable as long as the causes are also being removed. Why suffer?

5) All herbs are toxic.

Here is another one of those absolute statements made that makes NH look bad to so many people. NH has not done its homework because NH believes that water fasting, raw food, etc. is all we need. When NH says that all herbs are toxic and it is this toxicity that suppresses the symptoms, they only make themselves look ignorant. If all herbs are poisons, then how is it that if you get bitten by a rattlesnake, Echinacea can save your life, and if you eat the death cap mushroom, which is one of the most virulent liver toxins known, milk thistle can save your life? As you can see, the argument that herbs are toxins and stopped some detox symptom just does not make sense in these two situations. Take this poison and it will kill you, but if you take this poison in the form of an herb it will stop what???

Here are a few posts by Mary that shed a little more light on herbs:
RE: herbs - question for Art Baker
Author: Mary
Date: 05-07-01 20:50

It is also a question of "medicating" which has a bad connotation or "healing," which herbs can help with. It is misleading to lump herbs into a situation wherein their only function is to suppress symptoms. In all my years of studying and practicing herbalism, we were never once taught to use herbs to suppress symptoms. It is not fair to herbs and herbalism to equate them with allopathic practices because they are not often used that way. We quite simply sometimes need an intervention, at times.
[www.living-foods.com]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RE: as an herbalist
Author: Mary
Date: 05-07-01 20:01

I agree that people need options when their health is poor.
Herbs also stimulate (mildly to a lot), and can act as carriers for nutritive substances like plantain or slippery elm. They can act as dissolvers of impacted matter, too. I have had very good results with herbs used wisely, allowing the person to go the next step, but as my post stressed, and as yours does, the work must be in the direction of a skilled person, not someone using it fancifully. As for combination formulae, they are put together in optimum circumstances for synergy, so it does not matter which agent is producing effects - it is the whole thing. Unfortunately these days a bunch of things are added together to look impressive, and to make the product weigh more, and sell more. I say take the best and leave the rest, and am (after many years in the field) suspicious of practitioners who only feel their way is best. It usually boils down to the fact that they do not know much about other ways. Bach flower and other essences are helpful in the larger picture, too.
[www.living-foods.com]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One final word for thought...in response to the American Natural Hygiene Society's somewhat recent views on adding some cooked food to the ideal diet of raw foods, T. C. Fry wrote, "When people in the same canoe fight, they're likely to capsize and both sides lose."

Peace and Love..........John

John your steadfast passion for Hygiene is always intriguing, albeit overwellming at times.

But surprisingly I just read your whole post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2012 03:15PM by WorkoutMan.

Yes agree with the majority of that article and pretty much what ive been saying for a while myself.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2012 03:13PM by powerlifer.

RawPracticalist - I think you need to realise that not everybody is affected by herbs, spices etc in the same way that you are. I certainly do not have the problems that you mention.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2012 04:04PM by flipperjan.

So what happens to your digestion the day you do not have garlic and herbs? Or you always make sure you have them. Do not leave home without them.

When the food is 80 percent water as it should be, there is no concern for those extra help.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe the parents have done a poor job. Children
> should gravitate naturally to raw juicy fruits


Oh no u dih int!

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> onions make me feel stoned..


LOL

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what happens to your digestion the day you do
> not have garlic and herbs? Or you always make sure
> you have them. Do not leave home without them.
>
> When the food is 80 percent water as it should be,
> there is no concern for those extra help.

What about someone with low stomach acid, colitis and so on, how would water rich food help them ?. Sure mono food going to be lighter on digestion but if they have low stomach acid they might not be digesting much of it anyway.

If you have a digestive disorder that you are using herbs to help and stop then sure your digestion will go either stand still or has the possibility to go back. Correct the digestive disorder with herbs and you'll have good digestion pending your diet isn't too crazy. Even then i can eat massive meals of anything these days and digest them perfectly, whilst i see many people forced to mono eat because their digestion can't handle fats or fats and carbs at the same time.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2012 12:37PM by powerlifer.

I forgot to say garlic isn't really much of a direct digestive aid anyway, most of its benefits come from acting as a prebiotic thus feeding the gut bacteria. Many fruits do this also such as banana which are another top prebiotic food. Again its a case of selective pickings i find with NH.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

>What about someone with low stomach acid, colitis and so on, how would water rich food help them ?. Sure mono food going to be lighter on digestion but if they have low stomach acid they might not be digesting much of it anyway.


indeed, what about someone with colitis?

[naturalhygienesociety.org]

Thats great that diet and other natural methods worked for him and im fully aware of the potential healing benefits of a plant food diet fresh i have been following it and on this forum for years. Diet should always be the logical start aswell as other lifestyle changes.

That said NH doesn't take into account anyone who doesn't get fixed without diet. One anecdotal account really isn't much to go on either, but i am agreeing that many have cured their colitis with a healthy diet, just not everyone and we need to be open minded.

Whilst a healthy diet can remedy many peoples ailments it certainly is not a cure all panacea as some like to make out.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 02:17PM by powerlifer.

once again, no offense, but you stray off point.

i was specifically talking about your statement below

you say "what about someone with ..colitis... how would water rich diet help them "


i show you colitis, healed with water rich diet

your response has nothing to do with the point i was making.

if you are going to make assertions,, then others provide information regarding your assertions, then an acknowledgment of a valid response to your query is in
order,, imo, otherwise, why are you asking the question? was it rhetorical?

would you like me to give you fasting examples of colitis healing as well?
would that be considered a water rich diet, absent healing herbs?

A valid response was one anecdotal account of someone healing wow that must be evidence, forgive me for rolling out the carpet ?

And if you read my response i did say i had heard of others healing their colitis with a plant based diet just that IT DOESNT WORK AND SOMETIMES ISNT ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE. But that a plant based diet should always be the core of healing.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 02:35PM by powerlifer.

One success story is about as valid as one story of failure. Interesting, but proof of nothing.

It's always nice to read about someone's success.

>A valid response was one anecdotal account of someone healing wow that must be evidence ?

YES.

you never give an inch,, eh?

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >A valid response was one anecdotal account of
> someone healing wow that must be evidence ?
>
> YES.
>
> you never give an inch,, eh?

Like i say what do you you want me to roll out the carpet because one clearly NH orientated site has ONE account of someone healing themselves. Its great like i said, what more do you want ?.

My point for the 100th time was that a healthy diet doesn't always work for everyone, so you have to be open minded about the possibilities and trust me when you are faced with chronic health problems for long enough you will broaden your mind if something isnt working for you.

Dogma does not create health.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 02:41PM by powerlifer.

>One success story is about as valid as one story of failure. Interesting, but proof of nothing.

coco, was your ONE personal raw transformation proof of anything?
if no, then why didn't you go back to the way you were before?

>Like i say what do you you want me to roll out the carpet because one clearly NH orientated site has ONE account of someone healing themselves. Its great like i said, what more do you want ?.

yes, please roll out the red carpet!

Gastrointestinal disorders

Disturbances of the gastrointestinal system ? including esophagitis, gastritis, colitis, constipation, bloating, and the symptoms associated with so-called ?candidiasis? ? usually respond well to conservative care.

My most recent case of gastrointestinal disturbance was a young woman with severe colitis [inflammation of the colon]. She reported severe, constant bleeding through the rectum. She said that despite continual medical treatment with cortisone, implants, and a wide range of other medication, she had bleeding with every bowel movement for eight years. Her physician had explained that surgery would have to be performed.

After we had eliminated her medications, a period of fasting was undertaken. Within a week, the constant pain was resolved. By the 10th day, the passing of blood and mucus had stopped. After two weeks of fasting we began to carefully feed her. Her bowel movements were blood-free from the first. At her three-month follow-up she reported feeling great and completely free of any significant bleeding or problems.

I agree with Brian Clement that a 100% raw vegan diet can be very helpful as part of a routine towards healing a health crisis and yes it certainly did cure my IBS with a raw diet AS PART of the protocal I followed. But I don't adhere to a strictly 100% raw vegan diet any longer as I don't find it neccessary for a high level of health for myself. Lots of raw, sure, and many sneaky ingredients have been discussed here in a rational fact based dialogue that has made me aware and wary of consuming. That's why I visit this forum. Lots of great information here. One success story is interesting but I don't think it's proof of much. Another person with IBS could do exactly what I did and have different results. In fact, I'd be more inclined to expect that than an identical reaction.

What immediately springs to my mind when I think of an fruitarian diet is Rene Beresford and another longtime fruitarian (whose name I can't remember at the moment) who were dedicated fruitarians and both suffered from cancer--- Rene with prostate cancer, and the other guy with some other form of cancer. And when T.C. Fry, another fruitarian, died, he had cancerous lesions in his lungs. (Yes, I know, he apparently didn't stick 100% to his own regimen, but still--- worth noting). Finally, Morris Krok had a cancerous lesion on his leg -- I'm not positive, but I believe he died recently? -- and so it would seem to me that the anecdotal evidence is mounting that perhaps fruitarianism really isn't a very healthy diet.
A raw diet needs to be cleansing, but ALSO fortifying. I think the danger with the all fruit diet is it's all cleansing, all the time, and not providing enough nutrients to nourish and maintain the body in optimal health.

Sharrhan:


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