I like to see doctors re- thinking and changing their minds. This is a pretty big one!!!

[www.sott.net]

Yes this is very true infact statins can actually increase risk of heart failure.

Cholesterol and saturated fat get a bad rep from the low fat industry, cholesterol is actually one of the healing agents the body releases in response to inflammation which is the real cause of heart disease as the article states.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 09:24AM by powerlifer.

Good to see that information coming out in mainstream medicine isn't it Powerlifer. I've sent the article to a friend who is struggling with cholesterol and takes statins.

Wheat.

Read a book called "Wheat Belly" to discover this info.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 11:25AM by eaglefly.

It will never change though sadly flipperjan, the majority have bought into the low fat, cholesterol and saturated fat causes heart disease myth that the majority of the public view fat as the enemy. Big industries thrive off of the low fat cultures as does the pharmaceutical businesses with there overprescribing of statins and other similar classes of drugs.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

flipperjan,

Interestingly, in yesterday's online Guardian, the front page yelled, "Statins could benefit health of millions." The accompanying article informed us that the NHS is considering revising its availability of statins to people that aren't presently heart patients but are in risk groups, because it is believed it can help prevent their developing heart problems due to cholesterol blockages. This genius move is appraently based on an article in The Lancet.

Reading your linked news today creates quite the mental disjunct: Your news is from the the present day, literally, but the information at yesterday's Guardian appears to have arrived there by Concorde jet from 1983. My doctor never checks cholesterol without running a full inflammatory marker panel, and frequently opts for just the latter with his patients. He states simply that unless the panel show inflammation, the cholesterol count doesn't indicate anything.

How is it that some clinicians "got the memo" and some didn't? It's baffling!

That is great to hear that not all general practitioners are frauds Tamukha, it is very easy to lose faith in western doctors.

I can't understand if its because of a lack of proper knowledge because i have came across numerous physicians that didn't even know what DHEA was or the adrenal glands. How can you not have learned about one of the most basic glands in the body, these people fully well understand anxiety, adrenaline, the fight and flight response but have never heard of the adrenal glands which produce these hormones.

Crazy and worrying stuff, people view doctors as superheroes when the majority are nothing more than licensed drug dealing puppets playing with your health for the greater profit of the big pharmaceutical companies.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 01:55PM by powerlifer.

Well, the real question is what is causing all that inflammation of the arteries if not foods that contain cholesterol? Also, the inclusion of saturated fats in the diet cause the plaque to form in the arteries, restricting the flow of blood.

It seems to me that if you look at the foods that contribute to arterial inflammation, that animal products are going to be one of the key contributors.

<<<Well, the real question is what is causing all that inflammation of the arteries if not foods that contain cholesterol?>>>

Oxidized Cholesterol

Yes Prana, that and processed food. It seems quite simple really, to opt for unprocessed food, which for most will mean more work, such as preparation and cooking. The food industry has made it easy with processed and even pre-cooked food and microwave ovens etc. I reckon it will be a hard slog to re-educate people who have been preparing amd cooking this way for decades or all their lives.

I beleive that will be the hardest to overcome. Most people's lifestyle is rush rush these days, with both parents working and the kids in daycare. Who has the time or energy to prepare and cook unprocessed food for the whole family? There is so much of our life that is interrelated, connected, and it will really mean changing the whole of society. A changing of our attitude towards work, possessions, family and food, just to name a few.

However, change is slow and sometimes painful, particularly social change. But it is happening, just look at what the internet has done, connecting people with the same mindset from all over the world. So new ideas around life and living are rapidly transfered from person to person, from community to community, the internet has increased the speed of the whole process.

When you think about it, there has been massive change over the last several decades, from the sixties onward, slow but sure. And to see prominate medical professionals, such as in this article, to come forward with a total change of thought about what causes or contributes to heart disease, is very encouraging. Previously, any change like this would only be forthcoming by professionals when they retired, when there was no worry that peers would turn on you, which may have impacted on your career, and this Dr Lundell is certainly a long way from retirement.

jalan

Well said, jalanutan. I love my internets!

Gluten is another HUGE factor for inflammation, isn't it? Not to exclude meat... just to mention another avoidable nasty.

Yea.
Gluten.
Read Wheat Belly.

Most recent studies fail to find much if any link between saturated fat and heart disease.

There are a number of factors which can contribute to inflammation hormonal imbalances, poor adrenal gland function which produce the bodies own natural anti-inflammatory steroids, lack of intake of anti-inflammatory omega 3 fatty acids, dietary allergens such as been mentioned above with gluten and more.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2012 08:50AM by powerlifer.

I forgot to say it is actually the inflammation that leads to arterial plaque formation not the cholesterol. If the arterial lining is damaged from say high blood pressure, diabetes or high homocysteine levels then all these cause inflammation of the arterial lining, cholesterol is the healing agent the body releases in response to the inflammation.

The problem is if that the source of the inflammation isn't tackled then the body will keep releasing more and more cholesterol in an attempt to heal and thus as a result arteries begin to narrow. The root problem is still the inflammation and tackling what is the cause of such inflammation. Thus anti-inflammatory foods(antioxidants, anti-inflammatory nutrients/phyto-nutrients), omega-3s, supporting adrenal gland health etc are very important in the reduction of heart disease.

Yes studies have shown that excessive intake of fat isn't good, but they have also shown that low fat diets actually promote heart disease.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2012 09:23AM by powerlifer.

Low fat diets promote heart disease?

Maybe u should qualify that statement.

what kind of low fat diet?
Was it the low fat that was the causative factor?

<<<Low fat diets promote heart disease?>>>

I'll chime in...

One large difference remains, however, between Fuhrman and McDougall, Pritikin, Ornish, Esselstyn. Fuhrman believes a low fat vegan diet is unhealthy, and leads to increased risk of essential tremor, Parkinson disease, and cardiac arrhythmia, in older age. He sees many people in his practice with these ailments, following a low fat vegan diet. Fuhrman believes that the incidence of these issues is higher than chance, for the low fat vegan adherents, but data is lacking.

Fuhrman has said that a low fat diet increases the chance of death by cardiac arrhythmia(1) (not a heart attack).

In an arrhythmia the heartbeats may be too slow, too rapid, too irregular, or too early. Rapid arrhythmias (greater than 100 beats per minute) are called tachycardias. Slow arrhythmias (slower than 60 beats per minute) are called bradycardias. Irregular heart rhythms are called fibrillations (as in atrial fibrillation and ventricular fibrillation). When a single heartbeat occurs earlier than normal, it is called a premature contraction.

Peace and Love..........John

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Low fat diets promote heart disease?
>
> Maybe u should qualify that statement.
>
> what kind of low fat diet?
> Was it the low fat that was the causative factor?

I think John has taken care of some of the aspects of how a low fat diet can contribute to heart and other problems. We all know how integral essential fatty acids such as omega-3 are to protecting the heart so low intake of these and other heart protective fats isn't recommended in my opinion.

There are so many variable factors though because a low fat vegan diet tends to be rich in antioxidants and other heart protective nutrients where as the trendy low fat sad diets that many follow aren't. They tend to be rich in refined carbs, sweeteners and other crap these pre packaged low fat diet foods contain and most are duped into believing what they are doing is healthy because they are following a low fat diet.

The problem isn't saturated fats but trans fats which is what is found in these vegetable spreads that are often touted as healthier replacements. I have no doubt that excessive levels of fat isn't healthy numerous studies prove this, but this doesn't mean the other extreme of the spectrum is any healthier.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2012 12:36PM by powerlifer.

>One large difference remains, however, between Fuhrman and McDougall, Pritikin, Ornish, Esselstyn. Fuhrman believes a low fat vegan diet is unhealthy, and leads to increased risk of essential tremor, Parkinson disease, and cardiac arrhythmia, in older age. He sees many people in his practice with these ailments, following a low fat vegan diet. Fuhrman believes that the incidence of these issues is higher than chance, for the low fat vegan adherents, but data is lacking.
Fuhrman has said that a low fat diet increases the chance of death by cardiac arrhythmia(1) (not a heart attack).

and you are talking about a cooked low fat diet
which is what i mean by "qualify the statement"
and that has NOTHING to do with a low fat raw vegan diet and fat levels and heart issues.

when you and powerlifer say low fat diet, you both have not qualified your statement, and you therefore you imply by your omission that all low fat diets cause heart problems.


>I think John has taken care of some of the aspects of how a low fat diet can contribute to heart and other problems.

no, actually he hasn't.
he has taken care of cooked lowfat diets.
and you keep saying "low fat diet"
and you again refuse to qualify it.


>We all know how integral essential fatty acids such as omega-3 are to protecting the heart so low intake of these and other heart protective fats isn't recommended in my opinion.

and that means what in relation to what?
a low fat diet?
what kind of low fat diet?
all low fat diets?
show me ONE study of a lowfat raw vegan diet that indicates heart problems.

if you are talking about cooked lowfat diets causing problems, then say so,
and i will then say,
so what?
what do you expect?
how do you know it's the cooked or the low fat?

>I have no doubt that excessive levels of fat isn't healthy numerous studies prove this, but this doesn't mean the other extreme of the spectrum is any healthier.

you have not defined extreme. so it's meaningless.

fresh,

It's basic biology that insufficient fat and cholesterol--not strictly dietary but metabolic--causes much of the same inflammatory conditions that excess does. The problem is that science has not determined what the influences of dietary intakes of fats and cholesterol are to these ratios specifically. I suspect, each individual responds differently in the metabolization of dietary fats and cholesterol, anyway.

Its fairly simple fresh, what i wrote above as it says: any diet in which has a low intake of omega-3 or other fats that have been proven to aid cardiovascular health.

I then further explained below that there are so many variables when it comes to heart health anyway as such a raw vegan low fat diet tends to be higher in antioxidants and heart protective nutrients than the trendy low fat cooked sad diet. So yeah i have defined above, please read again.

One reason the cholesterol myth has been aloud to have so much coverage in the media and papers is that doctors actively use it as a marker to prescribe drugs, a class of drugs which in most western countries is considered one of the most prescibed.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2012 03:03PM by powerlifer.

the issue is what do you mean by low fat diet.

a low fat diet is commonly used in many ways, for example, low fat raw vegan.

low does not MEAN insufficient in common usage

when you say low fat causes heart problems, it implies that there is something wrong with what many people eat as a low fat raw vegan diet, or a low fat cooked vegan diet, when cause and effect has not been determined at all.

the proper terminology is insufficient fat diet, then of course problems can arise.
as with insufficiency in anything, or excess in anything.

to use the term low fat is misleading and prejudicial.

Tam, you threw out one of them big words. When you say metabolic, is that cholesterol created by the body? Doesn't the liver produce cholesterol? Could a compromised liver be in play here? And doesn't all inflammation point back to toxicity of some sort?

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes this is very true infact statins can actually
> increase risk of heart failure.
>
> Cholesterol and saturated fat get a bad rep from
> the low fat industry, cholesterol is actually one
> of the healing agents the body releases in
> response to inflammation which is the real cause
> of heart disease as the article states.
>
> [www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Will have to agree with you once again my friend! The body uses the cholesterol as an anti-inflamatory. High blood cholesterol is really indicitive of systemic inflamation and weak adrenal glands. Once we see the adrenals become weak at producing anti-inflamatory hormones we see the cholesterol go way up. The arterial plaques starts plaquing in the wall first, then eventually on the wall.

When I reread the thread I see you already kinda said this. but hey I got excited!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2012 04:09PM by WorkoutMan.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, the real question is what is causing all
> that inflammation of the arteries if not foods
> that contain cholesterol? Also, the inclusion of
> saturated fats in the diet cause the plaque to
> form in the arteries, restricting the flow of
> blood.
>
> It seems to me that if you look at the foods that
> contribute to arterial inflammation, that animal
> products are going to be one of the key
> contributors.

Acids! Especialy cooked animal protein. To go deeper into the cause though, I would have to say the congested lymph system comming through the walls of the arteries. As well as hormonal imbalance in testosterone vs. progesterone. Thats why we see heart disease more in men. Testosterone is acidic and very inflamatory. The cholesterol is serving its purpose as an antacid. As we all know the blood must maintain an alkaline ph. The plaquing is something the body must do to help itself when the other systems are lagging.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2012 04:15PM by WorkoutMan.

Yeah the liver is the primary regulator of cholesterol for the body although it can also synthesize cholesterol when low.

Definitley workoutman, another plus for keeping the adrenal glands supported, nourished and minimizing stress as much as possible .

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Really great info in this thread, and yes, I read in a book by 'Richard Passwater' called 'Super Nutrition' that the liver can produce up to 25mg of cholesterol each day. Or was that 250mg??? It was like over 30yrs ago, but anyway, I was surprised by this at the time.

Also, I totally agree regarding acid forming foods being a causal factor. Now that means all animal products, grains and some nuts/beans. I believe that nuts/beans are fairly low acid though.

And I do think that it's important to qualify just what form of low fat diets cause major inflamation. Powerlifter did mention that a low fat vegan diet would be packed full of nutrients that would minimise any adverse effect from being low in fat; whereas, what would be considered a low fat SAD diet would be less so.

jalan

Yes, nanners. I have a friend whose father's people, whom she takes after, all produce excess cholesterol in their livers, regardless of diet. Their various doctors assume there's a genetic reason, but it hasn't been isolated yet. Hence my feeling that the last word on this subject is nowhere near being said

Id suspect there may be an element of poor liver function involved Tamukha, a proper functioning liver should break down excess cholesterol. Although the liver isn't the only gland involved in the role of metabolizing cholesterol, the thyroid is another and hypothyroidism can contribute to high cholesterol levels.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

powerlifer,

I don't know, there have been extremely healthy living and eating people in that family who had the same issue. It never caused problems, mind you, and most of them live forever and die of "old age." It's just that they produce elevated cholesterol levels as determined by modern mean ratios. I bet their inflammatory markers are generally calm seas, which is why I think this condition is more complicated than it appears.

This time last year I weighed 185 lbs at a height of 6'1". At that time I started bringing more and more fat into my diet. I now weigh 155 and I've never, ever calorie restricted. I'm not emaciated either. Just a whole lot of muscle (for me at least) and very smooth/soft skin. My digestion is doing well too. It's not perfect, but I suspect that after years of low-fat, my system is still transitioning. I predict that someday soon someone's going to make a small fortune writing a well-researched book on how to properly move from a low-fat diet to one that fearlessly contains fats.