chat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > With respect, I"m not contradicting myself.
> > Saying that an amino acid may be limiting is
> not
> > the same thing as saying it is a protein is
> > incomplete because it lacks an amino acid. It
> > doesn't lack the amino acid, rather it may not
> > have the sufficient proportion by itself for
> all
> > of the protein to be absorbed. It's limiting
> > rather than incomplete.
>
>
> No worries, if this is your point, fair enough.
> But what is the point in making it?

To rebut the statement that protein in plant foods is incomplete


> The fact is, the person needs 1)all essential
> amino acids (that is, complete) and 2)in balanced
> proportions. For proper nutrition, we need both 1
> and 2. Just 1, or just 2 will not do.

And plant foods provide all of the amino acids and protein needed without animal products. Say you have 5 grams of protein in a cup of brown rice and you are only able to absorb 3 of the 5 because lysine is low. You still absorb 3 complete grams of protein, do you not? So, if vegans get enough complete protein, why does it matter if we unable to absorb some portion of total available. As long as you aren't protein deficient, it isn't important.

> The fact is, most vegetable sources *either* lack
> some essential amino acids *or* contain some of
> them in lower proportions.

I'm not aware of any plant foods that "lack amino acids" and I've stipulated that some have limiting amino acids, which can be a good thing. Too much protein from animal foods and some processed plant foods (e.g. soy burgers) has the potential to stimulate excessive IGF-1 (insulin-like glucose factor) which is linked to aging and cancer. Heavy protein can also acidify the body and be hard on the kidneys and liver. Every gram of protein you take in beyond your dietary need gets excreted raising uric acid levels and purines. More isn't better beyond some level. And studies of raw vegan shows they get plenty of protein.

> So what's the point arguing that most vegetable
> sources contain all essential amino acids (can
> satisfy 1), but at the same time contain some of
> them in insufficient quantities (fail to satisfy
> 2)? Well, yeah, that's the problem! And that's
> what I tried to suggest in my original comment,
> that most plant proteins are either incomplete or
> imbalanced, and therefore it is important that the
> person takes care in their diet to receive
> complete and balance protein.

I think we have to agree to disagree on this, Chat. Raw vegan foods contain all the protein we need as long as we consume sufficient calories and vary our diet. Even 80-10-10er get plenty of protein eating mostly fresh fruit and leafy greens. I remember Utopian Life sharing one of her daily eating plans and I was impressed about all of the protein and nutrients from a low fat fruit based vegan diet.


>
> Unless you now want to suggest that balanced
> protein (essential amino acids in correct
> proportions) is harmful or unnecessary - if this
> is so, please state the evidence for this
> suggestion. Otherwise it is just your opinion
> which as the case is, contradicts current
> scientific data.

I'm going suggest that we agree to disagree at this point. Davis and Melina cover this point in detail in Becoming Raw and raw vegans on average do just fine with protein.

Paul

Usda nutritional database.
Meat is too high in many
Aminos
check it out yourself
do your own research
drop your preconceptions

[www.jotform.us]

>
> Are you a gorilla?
irrelevant to my question

Are u capable of answering my q?

And yes I am a gorilla with respect to amino acids
And nutrition.

Well done paul,btw

[www.jotform.us]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 03:29PM by fresh.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> yes I am a gorilla with respect to amino
> acids
> And nutrition.


Put it on your profile then, so that people know who are they talking to! As the famous comic goes - in the internet, nobody knows you are a dog

Here I am

[m.funnyordie.com]

Any evidence that suggests that humans are exactly the same in regards to what nutrition Gorillas require because i have never seen any.

Chat i missed your question, i personally think its best to focus on protein quality over the day rather than week, makes sure you are getting the recommended daily protein intake and a broad profile of amino acids are being consumed.

Which is why i prefer to eat as best a variety of foods as i can, not only in regards to different amino acid profiles and quality but to expose myself to as many different nutrients and phyto-nutrients as possible. Why is why it makes little sense to me to eat diets comprising of just bananas etc, they are in no way nutritionally rounded or complete enough a food to live on, infact i can't think of any food that is.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 03:46PM by powerlifer.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And plant foods provide all of the amino acids and
> protein needed without animal products. Say you
> have 5 grams of protein in a cup of brown rice and
> you are only able to absorb 3 of the 5 because
> lysine is low. You still absorb 3 complete grams
> of protein, do you not? So, if vegans get enough
> complete protein, why does it matter if we unable
> to absorb some portion of total available. As
> long as you aren't protein deficient, it isn't
> important.

"If vegans get enough complete protein" - well, that is my point. It is important, so that vegans can get *enough* of *complete* protein. Both aspects are important. It is that simple.



> I've stipulated that some have limiting
> amino acids, which can be a good thing. Too much
> protein from animal foods and some processed plant
> foods (e.g. soy burgers) has the potential to
> stimulate excessive IGF-1 (insulin-like glucose
> factor) which is linked to aging and cancer.
> Heavy protein can also acidify the body and be
> hard on the kidneys and liver. Every gram of
> protein you take in beyond your dietary need gets
> excreted raising uric acid levels and purines.
> More isn't better beyond some level.

This I'm afraid is arguing at cross-purposes. When I mentioned that vegans need to take care and watch the variety of foods they are eating in order to receive complete and balanced protein, I was advocating undesirability of essential amino acids deficiency. I thought that was clear from my original post.

And now you reply that it is undesirable to consume protein beyond your dietary needs. Well, sure it is. But nobody here said otherwise.




> I think we have to agree to disagree on this,
> Chat. Raw vegan foods contain all the protein we
> need as long as we consume sufficient calories and
> vary our diet.

Nothing in my comments suggests otherwise, therefore I am not quite sure what you are disagreeing with. It was precisely my point that so far as protein is concerned, vegans need to vary their diet, because vegetable sources of protein tend to be incomplete/imbalanced on their own. By contrast to non-vegetarians, who can more easily get complete/balanced protein from one-two sources.




> I'm going suggest that we agree to disagree at
> this point. Davis and Melina cover this point in
> detail in Becoming Raw and raw vegans on average
> do just fine with protein.

Again I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. I have never said that raw vegans on average do not do "fine" with protein. OP's question was: Anyone no of any good articles about protein in a raw diet? So I suggested her to look at wikipedia articles as a good starting point, and noted what I thought to be an important thing so far as protein and vegans are concerned.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chat i missed your question, i personally think
> its best to focus on protein quality over the day
> rather than week, makes sure you are getting the
> recommended daily protein intake and a broad
> profile of amino acids are being consumed.
>
> Which is why i prefer to eat as best a variety of
> foods as i can, not only in regards to different
> amino acid profiles and quality but to expose
> myself to as many different nutrients and
> phyto-nutrients as possible. Why is why it makes
> little sense to me to eat diets comprising of just
> bananas etc, they are in no way nutritionally
> rounded or complete enough a food to live on,
> infact i can't think of any food that is.


These are my troubles now! I'm still trying to read and make sense about food combining, mono-ish eating, and digestion, and how it may clash with proper nutrition.

If I try to limit the variety of my food during the day, so that there is less "inappropriate" combinations, and so that it is "easier" on digestion, I run into over-the-day nutrition problems, but at the same time if I am careful I can avoid those problems over-the-week. Still can't make up my mind which is the better approach!


Have you seen this guy's page? [deanpomerleau.tripod.com]

Sounds really fantastic, but two things worry me which both I am not sure about: food combining and whether too much goodness might go away from those foods by the end of the week (since he prepares them in one go).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 04:12PM by chat.

I'm disagreeing with your statements that plant proteins are incomplete and the other points specified in your quote above. It's a myth. Agree to disagree.

Most vegetable sources of protein are either incomplete or imbalanced, which means vegans need to take care to have a variety of foods in order to receive all essential amino acids in balanced proportions.

This is not a myth, this is a fact. A general reference is Young VR, Pellett PL (1994). "Plant proteins in relation to human protein and amino acid nutrition" AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 59 (5 Suppl), and one may have a look at wikipidea articles for some other starting information about protein.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 04:17PM by chat.

I only had a chance to skim it Chat but from what i can see he eats 2 big meals a day which are nutritionally sound by the looks of the macros and micros, personally i prefer to eat smaller portions of food but more often. I got into this habit naturally as my digestion used to be really weak and i find it balanced my blood sugar better at the time i had pretty severe adrenal fatigue.

The problems i can think of is that it would be pretty tough on digestion consuming so much food at one time. The other is that the body can only absorb so many nutrients at the one time.

If i have totally mis-read the link sorry i only skim read it, will have a proper read later when i get a minute.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

chat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most vegetable sources of protein are either
> incomplete or imbalanced, which means vegans need
> to take care to have a variety of foods in order
> to receive all essential amino acids in balanced
> proportions.

I agree it is usual to eat a variety of foods for other reasons, but not protein. One could get sufficient protein from eating one type of food, say beans as long as they ate enough of them. The fact that some plant proteins have limiting amino acids does not mean that they cannot provide sufficient protein. It just means you cannot absorb all of the protein available, but rather a fraction of it.


>
> This is not a myth, this is a fact. A general
> reference is Young VR, Pellett PL (1994). "Plant
> proteins in relation to human protein and amino
> acid nutrition" AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL
> NUTRITION 59 (5 Suppl), and one may have a look at
> wikipidea articles for some other starting
> information about protein.

It's a myth. The experience of many 8-1-1er on this board proves that. Many times they eat monomeals or a limited set of fruit and leafy greens and do just fine provided they get enough calories.

[www.veganhealth.org]

It looks as though lysine is most challenging amino acid to get if one is not eating beans or legumes. Fortunately, legume sprouts are easy to raise and eat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 04:41PM by pborst.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a myth. The experience of many 8-1-1er on
> this board proves that. Many times they eat
> monomeals or a limited set of fruit and leafy
> greens and do just fine provided they get enough
> calories.


It is not a myth, it is a fact. Documented evidence says so. If there is new evidence that says otherwise - that is great, and I will gladly read about it once the said 8-1-1ers post their reports somewhere a little more reputable than the forum boards (no offence to rawfoodsupport, I find it really helpful!)

Powerlifer, no I think you are right he does eat only twice a day and it does seem to be a concern for digestion!

as long as you eat enough of plant protein from a single food with a limiting amino acid, you could satisfy your protein needs. Say lentils, low in methionine as a limiting amino acid, if you ate enough lentils, quantity would make up for quality. Each cup of cooked lentils has 18 grams of protein. Say you can only absorb 12 but your body only needs 20 to 35 grams per day. Two cup of lentils, some fruit and greens and you are on your way. It's not difficult. And protein deficiency is not common.

The idea that plant protein is incomplete is a myth. All plant foods have some of each amino acid. It is limiting not incomplete.

Anyway, agree to disagree. I think we are just talking in circles at this point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 04:47PM by pborst.

OK, let’s see if we can make some sense out of all of this and instead of addressing everyone’s individual comments, I’m just going to make a list of some of the most important points.

#1) The RDA for Protein has safety features built in, so instead of multiplying our Ideal Weight in Kilograms by .8, that multiplier should be more like .4 or .3. Now, instead of the average 154 pound man, which would be 70 Kilograms, needing 56 Grams of Protein, his need should be more like 28 Grams or 21 Grams keeping in mind that this not take into consideration Point #6) below.

#2) We have an Amino Acid Pool that Recycles 70% of our protein, so there is no need to consume these so-called Complete Proteins.

#3) The Protein or Amino Acids in Meat might look better on paper in some regards, but we are NOT Biologically Adapted to eat Dead Flesh, so our Livers have to get in on the act and convert all of those Amino Acids into a form we can use. In contrast, the Proteins in Plants are in a Free-Floating Amino Acid Form and do NOT require our Livers to do any EXTRA Work to get what we need.

#4) If all we ate was Bananas and we ate enough Calories, we would get every Amino Acid we need. One of the first things I did over 2 decades ago was create my own Nutritional Tables so I could look at any one Food and with only one Calculation determine what would happen if all we ate was 1,000 Calories of Spinach or 2,000 Calories of Bananas and even though Bananas only have 5% Protein by Calories (same as Mother’s Milk, by the way) we get all of our Branch Chain Amino Acids and all of the other Essential Amino Acids.

#5) When I’m coaching people, I also use Fuhrman’s example on page 60 in his book, Eat To Live, where he compares 100 Calories of Sirloin Steak to 100 Calories of Broccoli, Romaine Lettuce, and Kale. Surprisingly for most, the Dead Flesh comes in 5.4 Grams and the Greens come in at 11.2, 11.6 and 9.46 Grams, respectively.

#6) Now let’s apply what we learned from the Max Plank Institute in Germany where they found that Raw, Uncooked Protein has TWICE the Biological Value as Dead, Cooked Protein. So now, instead those Greens having TWICE as much Protein, those Greens have FOUR TIMES as much Protein as the Dead Flesh, unless you want to Eat Meat Raw, as Dr. Mercola does because he knows about the Biophotons. As a side note, I do Not share the same beliefs as Mercola as to our need to Eat Dead Flesh and we cannot Eat Raw Broccoli, so the FOUR TIMES Factor does not apply to Broccoli.

Peace and Love..........John

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> as long as you eat enough of plant protein from a
> single food with a limiting amino acid, you could
> satisfy your protein needs. Say lentils, low in
> methionine as a limiting amino acid, if you ate
> enough lentils, quantity would make up for
> quality.


Surely just because there is another way to achieve something does not mean it is the optimal way? Unless someone is being really stubborn?

I can go to work by taking a bus that goes straight to town, and I can also go to work by taking a bus that goes first to the airport and then to town. The latter will take me 2hours longer to get to work, and for that reason it is a *bad* way to go to work. But it nevertheless is a *way* to go to work, no one would argue.


Same with plant proteins. From example quoted in the wikipedia article "to obtain 25 grams of complete protein from canned pinto beans requires consuming 492 grams (423 kcal), however if combined with 12 grams of Brazil nuts, requires only 364 g of pinto beans (391 kcal)". The source is Woolf, P. J.; Fu, L. L.; Basu, A. (2011). Haslam, Niall James. ed. "VProtein: Identifying Optimal Amino Acid Complements from Plant-Based Foods". PLoS ONE 6 (4).

That most vegan sources of protein are either incomplete or imbalanced, by contrast to non-vegetarian sources of protein, is not a myth, it is a documented fact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 05:02PM by chat.

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> #5) When I’m coaching people, I also use
> Fuhrman’s example on page 60 in his book, Eat To
> Live, where he compares 100 Calories of Sirloin
> Steak to 100 Calories of Broccoli, Romaine
> Lettuce, and Kale. Surprisingly for most, the
> Dead Flesh comes in 5.4 Grams and the Greens come
> in at 11.2, 11.6 and 9.46 Grams, respectively.

Now we have to think about volume and weight though, it takes a whole head of romaine lettuce to equate to 100 calories and 8g of protein according to nutrition data, whilst you would only need to consume 28g of steak to achieve 8g of protein, compared to 626g i.e a head of lettuce.

Interesting none the less, we already know that animal foods are more dense sources of calories in most cases so this is a pretty pointless post from me lol.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 05:12PM by powerlifer.

chat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > as long as you eat enough of plant protein from
> a
> > single food with a limiting amino acid, you
> could
> > satisfy your protein needs. Say lentils, low
> in
> > methionine as a limiting amino acid, if you ate
> > enough lentils, quantity would make up for
> > quality.
>
>
> Surely just because there is another way to
> achieve something does not mean it is the optimal
> way? Unless someone is being really stubborn?
>
> I can go to work by taking a bus that goes
> straight to town, and I can also go to work by
> taking a bus that goes first to the airport and
> then to town. The latter will take me 2hours
> longer to get to work, and for that reason it is a
> *bad* way to go to work. But it nevertheless is a
> *way* to go to work, no one would argue.
>
>
> Same with plant proteins. From example quoted in
> the wikipedia article "to obtain 25 grams of
> complete protein from canned pinto beans requires
> consuming 492 grams (423 kcal), however if
> combined with 12 grams of Brazil nuts, requires
> only 364 g of pinto beans (391 kcal)". The source
> is Woolf, P. J.; Fu, L. L.; Basu, A. (2011).
> Haslam, Niall James. ed. "VProtein: Identifying
> Optimal Amino Acid Complements from Plant-Based
> Foods". PLoS ONE 6 (4).
>
> That most vegan sources of protein are either
> incomplete or imbalanced, by contrast to
> non-vegetarian sources of protein, is not a myth,
> it is a documented fact.

I don't follow your bus analogy. It assumes the conclusion in the premise. For some eating a limited variety is more optimal than varying the diet. Maybe the ease of digesting fruit makes eating more fruit a more optimal approach than somebody consuming a greater variety which might create other health problems like constipation all in the guise of trying to get more protein.

John Rose, I like your points.

Kref



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 05:11PM by Krefcenz.

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
#1) The RDA for Protein has safety features built
> in, so instead of multiplying our Ideal Weight in
> Kilograms by .8, that multiplier should be more
> like .4 or .3. Now, instead of the average 154
> pound man, which would be 70 Kilograms, needing 56
> Grams of Protein, his need should be more like 28
> Grams or 21 Grams


This is actually quite interesting, I was wondering myself to what extend is the 0.8 figure is applicable to everybody, and whether there was a safety margin involved.




John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> #2) We have an Amino Acid Pool that Recycles 70%
> of our protein, so there is no need to consume
> these so-called Complete Proteins.


As far as I understand the phrase "complete" protein refers to essential amino acids - they are essential because our bodies cannot produce them on its own, and therefore they must be supplied with the diet, and if they are not supplied there will be deficiency. Hence there is a need to consume complete protein.

Krefcenz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't follow your bus analogy. It assumes the
> conclusion in the premise. For some eating a
> limited variety is more optimal than varying the
> diet. Maybe the ease of digesting fruit makes
> eating more fruit a more optimal approach than
> somebody consuming a greater variety which might
> create other health problems like constipation all
> in the guise of trying to get more protein.


Krefcenz, I see your point. The bus analogy does assume that it is better to receive nutrition from varied sources. This is because from what I have read so far, this appears to be the most proven approach. By "most proven" I mean the amount and quality of reliable scientific evidence, but I'm still making my mind about the best approach to nutrition taking into account digestion. Still lots to read!

>Hence there is a need to consume complete protein.


in every bite?
in every meal?
in every day?
in every week?
in every month?

what is your contention?
what do your scientific journals tell you?

[www.jotform.us]

<<<Now we have to think about volume though, it takes a whole head of romaine lettuce to equate to 100 calories and 8g of protein according to nutrition data, whilst you would only need to consume 28g of steak to achieve 8g of protein, compared to 626g i.e a head of lettuce.>>>

Hey powerlifer,

Yes, the volume needed to get the same amount of Calories is noteworthy, but when we apply the FOUR TIMES Factor relative to Protein, now we only have to Eat 25 Calories of Greens to get the same amount of Protein that’s in 100 Calories of Dead Flesh. And I realize 1 Head of Lettuce sounds like a lot for those who don’t Eat very many Greens, but I have no problem Eating as much as 3 Heads of Lettuce in one setting and I would rather Eat a HUGE Bowl of Lettuce any day than a Handful of Dead Flesh.

Peace and Love..........John

[michaelbluejay.com]

I think in general, I agree with Fresh, Tamukha, John Rose, and pborst. Protein isn't a problem unless you aren't eating enough calories in which case you have other problems.

Kref

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hence there is a need to consume complete
> protein.
>
>
> in every bite?
> in every meal?
> in every day?
> in every week?
> in every month?
>
> what is your contention?
> what do your scientific journals tell you?


Have a look again through above posts. Powerlifer suggests aiming to obtain complete/balanced protein over the course of the day. I'm still thinking. What is well known (scientifically too) is that it is not necessary to strive to obtain complete/balanced protein in every meal. But this has been mentioned by several people in this thread already.

<<<As far as I understand the phrase "complete" protein refers to essential amino acids - they are essential because our bodies cannot produce them on its own, and therefore they must be supplied with the diet, and if they are not supplied there will be deficiency. Hence there is a need to consume complete protein.>>>

Hey Chat,

Yes, we do have consume all of our Essential Amino Acids, but not all at the same time, which is what many others have tried to explain to you. Whenever anyone mentions the phrase “Complete Proteins,” most people automatically think about the book, Diet for a Small Planet as Tam pointed out in a previous post.

So your perspective is valid, however, most Plants, including many Fruits, are “Complete Proteins”! We’ve been Duped my friend into believing that Animal Proteins are superior, but Not for Animals that are NOT Biologically Adapted to Eat Animals.

Peace and Love..........John

chat,
that's good that you're still thinking....

are you thinking about how
unbalanced meat is with regard to aminos?

have you had a conversation with the veg animals?
are they protein paranoid?

the protein assimilation pathways are not different - only if we are talking about obligate carnivores are there small amino acid differences.

[www.jotform.us]

>I think the problem comes when people look at protein in terms of grams. 1 banana usually equals around 1g of protein, so all the average person would need to do was consume 30-70 bananas etc. Which is wrong, the quality of amino acids in a banana whilst impressive for a fruit, isn't all that impressive in terms of protein quality.

Not impressive?
I compared the essential amino acids and found that the lowly banana
Met our needs.
So you are incorrect. even though you will continue to assert otherwise.


>Which is another reason why restrictive diets often run into trouble long term.

evidence of this vague assertion?


>Here is a post i found on another site -


We have no idea where this post ends and your words begin.
Nevertheless….


>Bananas are incomplete proteins, although they contain all 18 amino acids. In fact, the amino acid >content of bananas is generally negligible, comprising only 1.3 percent of the fruit's entire mass, >according to Herbet Shelton in the book "Hygienic System Vol. II: Orthotrophy." In essence, bananas are >not a significant source of amino acids.

False. I discovered otherwise when I actually looked at the data.
But I suppose this rubbish can just be rehashed over and over.

>To put this in perspective, the USDA says that the amino acids >most present in bananas are aspartic >and glutamic acid, which aren't essential amino acids. Only 188 mg >of aspartic acid and 231 mg of >glutamic acid exist in a large banana, whereas the USDA recommends 56 >g of essential amino acids per >day.

Meaningless

<A>
Bananas are great but a diet of just bananas is not nutritionally sound whatever way you wish to look at it,

Now who said that we should eat “just bananas”?
Who?
My post was for demonstration purposes, to refute your statement.
Can you possibly imagine replacing SOME bananas with SOME mangoes, blueberries and romaine?


>Healthy digestion is also vitally important when it comes to digesting protein and i have suffered in the past with low levels of various amino acids largely because of low stomach acid, even whilst consuming lots of complete protein rich foods, so yeah assimilation and digestion are very important. Protein is acid dependant for absorption.

And please indicate how you determined that you were low in various amino acids.

Symptoms that are unique to a specific amino acid?
amino acid testing?

>Any evidence that suggests that humans are exactly the same in regards to what nutrition Gorillas require because i have never seen any.

And WHO said that humans are EXACTLY the same as gorillas with respect to nutrition?


>Why is why it makes little sense to me to eat diets comprising of just bananas etc, they are in no way nutritionally rounded or complete enough a food to live on, infact i can't think of any food that is.

See item <A> above.
FIRST,you say bananas protein quality if poor (I disproved it – do you want to see my Data?)
NOW you say, they are not nutritionally “rounded”

[www.jotform.us]

>That most vegan sources of protein are either incomplete or imbalanced, by contrast to non-vegetarian sources of protein, is not a myth, it is a documented fact.

meaningless.

Show me a DIET that YOU are going to EAT that is insufficient in protein.