B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
la_veronique
()
Date: January 30, 2013 06:24PM i saw the ""Raw Vitamin Code" b-12 from Garden of Life
i saw they had probiotics tons of fruits and veggies ( like a zillion ingredients) it says 1,000 mcg per serving ( 1 capsule) and 16667% of DV (daily value) but i still don't see where they get their b-12 the labeling is confusing none of those fruits and veggies they list on their bottle are sources of b-12 so... what is going on? are they BLENDING the b-12 with these fruits, veggies and probiotics... or what? totally confused anyhoo...has anyone tried this product or called the company to ask them what is the scoop on this? Also, saw a post from powerlifter and pborbst concerning vega and/or nutritional yeast i think both of you mentioned using nutritional yeast as a source of b-12 how much do you use and what is the DV% approx? anyone else use nutritional yeast? experience.comments? does anyone synergize brewer's yeast with nutritional yeast to get the additional chromium etc. also, i looked up Vega and it seems like they have a lot of shakes and gels but I didn't see a supplement that had B-12 which product were you referring to that had the B-12 all this stuff concerning toxicity in the algaes, etc. is making everything a bit too "interesting" spirulina ( analog) chlorella ( maybe)? - which company/brand? okay, so maybe my thread is a repeat amalgamation of other peoples' interest in B-12 etc. so thanks to all in advance for being patient in helping me to dig a bit more Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 06:26PM by la_veronique. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Prana
()
Date: January 30, 2013 07:12PM That B12 is probably cyanocobalamin. You can read about how it is produced here Cyanocobalamin production. Nutritional yeast also uses cyanocobalamin.
Bacteria will naturally make B12, but not in that concentrations. The syntropic antioxidant microorganisms (aka effective microorganisms) might produce 8.8ug (here is an nutritional analysis, see pg. 8 for analysis of 100g. of EM-X) of B12 per serving (about 300% of DV). The RDA of B12 is 2.4ug. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 07:14PM by Prana. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: January 30, 2013 07:48PM I think of B12 as the poo of the bacteria after they eat cobalt. No cobalt means no B12. A good source of cobalt fertilizer is a crash powder called Azomite. If you make vegetables to suck up Azomite, then your chances of B12 in your gi track increase. Now, how do you know if algaes were exposed to cobalt? Nobody knows.
I myself take b12 as skin patch form (methylcobalamin). It works as it does not depend on the intrinsic factor Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Prana
()
Date: January 30, 2013 07:59PM By the way, the cyanocobalamin is really cheap. If you look at purebulk.com for their 100% pure cyanocobalamin, 100 grams is $775, or $7.75 a gram at that volume. 1 gram has 416,667 servings (a serving size being the RDA of B12), or for $1.00, you get 53,763 servings of cyanocobalamin. No wonder everyone is putting this stuff in their products.
The 1,000 mcg of B12 found in the "Raw Vitamin Code" has a value of under 1 cent (0.775 cents). Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: January 30, 2013 08:22PM Yeah, I think Amazon sells B12 cyanocobalamin 10000 mcg (ten thousand) really cheap. Those huge bombs are so Un-natural and don't exists in nature. More does not mean better. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Prana
()
Date: January 30, 2013 08:34PM Agreed. Here's what Dr. Vetrano says about cyanocobalamin:
Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
la_veronique
()
Date: January 30, 2013 09:32PM thank you very much prana and panchito for your insights
greatly appreciated! cyanide in cyanocobalamin? and hence nutritional yeast? so, that begs the same question of what foods/products people use for b-12 there is the methylcobalamin and the cyanocobalamin and some people use an assortment that has a bunch of b-12 types so, what are some ideas to make the ingestion of b-12 viable? what forms? foods etc. taking into account this little cyanide information? Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: January 30, 2013 10:05PM Eating B12 does not mean you get b12. You would need to eat raw food (vegs) rich on Cobalt. Your flora converts it to B12. You can tell if you have healthy flora by looking at the change of color of food. Bacteria changes the color and create B vits. See also the pee color change. If the food was rich on cobalt, then you would have more b12. The absorpsion of the B12 would depend on the intrinsic factor which may change with age. b12 is the most difficult thing to absorb.
Or you could get methyl b12 supplement which does not have 'the cianide' There are many post here about b12 Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Prana
()
Date: January 30, 2013 10:13PM You might want to try the syntropic antioxidant microorganisms (aka effective microorganism). Its not as cheap as the synthetic stuff, where $1 will only get you perhaps 16 DV servings (as opposed to the 53,763 DV servings of the cyanocobalamin). Innovativeprobiotics.com usually sells SCD Essential Probiotics at $110 a gallon plus free shipping, but they are on backorder, and you would have to go to Amazon.com and get it at higher price ($146, with shipping). SCD recommends taking a tablespoon as a serving, which ought to include several times the RDA of B12 (maybe has high as 3X the DV B12). At a 1 tablespoon serving size, you will get 256 servings from a gallon. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
la_veronique
()
Date: January 31, 2013 03:56AM panchito
am gingerly wading through the cobalt blue latticework of what you told me good thing that i have good boots to boot! prana am reading stuff about SAM fascinating stuff!! thank you i just noticed that panchito and prana both have the letter "p" and "a" in their names kinda cool in a sort of quirky synchronistic way Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: January 31, 2013 10:07AM Good luck LV
It takes a while for the B12 to sink in. b12 in the blood is useless. It has to sink in in the extracellular fluid and make its way to the 60+ TRILLION cells of the body. Though at first, it makes an energetic muscular difference as well as feeling better. It can also make you feel lighter. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Tamukha
()
Date: February 01, 2013 03:02PM la_veronique,
In the companion book that came out with the Vitamin Code line, which I got with my first Vitamin Code purchase, it is explained that the fruits and vegetables are processed to generate B12. If you look at the label of a bottle of a popular veg iron/B12 supplement--Floradix--you see much the same ingredients. It's the same idea, but the Garden of Life company's process creates a more stable, easily uptaken form. I have used both products and prefer the results of the Vitamin Code one. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
RAWLION
()
Date: February 02, 2013 11:24PM i use the RAW vitamins for sure. they are created by letting bacteria eat the foods and nutrients. highly raw, bacteria created. good stuff. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
la_veronique
()
Date: February 03, 2013 01:51AM hey tamukha rawlion
so... what type of B-12 do they create is it the methyl- or the cyano- i didn't get any book and i checked out their site and no information is there some site i should known about that explains this a bit more? interested thanks a bunch ! panchito which patches do u use? and what kind of b-12 do u get? also, any good books on b-12 for vegans? Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
rzman10001
()
Date: February 03, 2013 05:49AM Prana Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > You might want to try the syntropic antioxidant > microorganisms (aka effective microorganism). Its > not as cheap as the synthetic stuff, where $1 will > only get you perhaps 16 DV servings (as opposed > to the 53,763 DV servings of the cyanocobalamin). > Innovativeprobiotics.com usually sells SCD > Essential Probiotics at $110 a gallon plus free > shipping, but they are on backorder, and you would > have to go to Amazon.com and get it at higher > price ($146, with shipping). SCD recommends taking > a tablespoon as a serving, which ought to include > several times the RDA of B12 (maybe has high as 3X > the DV B12). At a 1 tablespoon serving size, you > will get 256 servings from a gallon. Prana, I am positive this B-12 is purely derived from fermentation and is purely natural bacterial form, AND is possible to achieve this dosage easily. HHI produced it at 2000mcg bacterial form once upon a time. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: February 03, 2013 01:14PM la_veronique Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > so... what type of B-12 do they create > is it the methyl- or the cyano- this is what wikipedia says [en.wikipedia.org] " Fermentation by a variety of microorganisms gives a mixture of methyl-, hydroxo-, and adenosylcobalamin." > panchito > > which patches do u use? > and what kind of b-12 do u get? I use the patches I find at Amazon like this one: [www.amazon.com] They work foe me because they don't need intrinsic factor (a special protein) and 'time' release over 24+ hours, giving a slow but steady rate of delivery. A pill would be like an ON/OFF bomb. The skin is another way to absorb nutrients. For example I supplement with magnesium oil (from the sea) because they say it is better than 'eating' magnesium. Cyano b12 is made from bacteria but the mechanical procces adds cyano- to concentrate it. methyl b12 is then made from cyanocobalamin but requires extra steps to isolate the good part. [en.wikipedia.org] "Methylcobalamin can be produced in the laboratory by reducing cyanocobalamin with sodium borohydride in alkaline solution, followed by the addition of methyl iodide.[2]" Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
la_veronique
()
Date: February 04, 2013 05:57AM thanks panchito
rolling up my sleeves...] (mumbling to myself...) "let's see now, what do we have here?" Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
KidRaw
()
Date: February 04, 2013 04:38PM Prana Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > You might want to try the syntropic antioxidant > microorganisms (aka effective microorganism). Its > not as cheap as the synthetic stuff, where $1 will > only get you perhaps 16 DV servings (as opposed > to the 53,763 DV servings of the cyanocobalamin). > Innovativeprobiotics.com usually sells SCD > Essential Probiotics at $110 a gallon plus free > shipping, but they are on backorder, and you would > have to go to Amazon.com and get it at higher > price ($146, with shipping). SCD recommends taking > a tablespoon as a serving, which ought to include > several times the RDA of B12 (maybe has high as 3X > the DV B12). At a 1 tablespoon serving size, you > will get 256 servings from a gallon. Prana, I had been meaning to ask you about this product. Because of your past information and recommendation, I had gone ahead and gotten the SCD Essential Probiotics. I have a concern and a question. Unfortunately, it's in plastic, which I try to avoid, but I guess I'll be using the product anyway. The other concern - the type of cultures in it. I had read that the culture with bifidus is 'bad' -- "The strain we must avoid in our SCD™ yoghurt is Bifidus as it has been found to cause bacterial overgrowth in the gut. Bifidus comes in quite a few variations e.g. Bifidobacterium infantis, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Lactobacillus Bifidus, Bifidobacterium longum etc, in general avoid anything that has bifid in its name." [www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info] (A coincidence that the above yoghurt is part of the SCD - Specific Carbohydrate Diet - and your probiotic is from SCD Probiotics.) Do you think Bifidus Culture is bad - I guess I can go look it up online to see if it causes overgrowth of bacteria - or is that what we want - overgrowth of bacteria? And the question is - when do you take it - in the morning on an empty stomach or just before or after you eat? Or would it be a good idea to put it in my green smoothie I have at noon which has a lot of other ingredients? Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
mindy66
()
Date: February 04, 2013 06:49PM Wow, y'all. My brain hurts.
Prana, is this the stuff that you are talking about? [www.innovativeprobiotics.com] Mindy Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 06:52PM by mindy66. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: February 04, 2013 07:25PM I don't think all bacteria are capable of producing b12. Maybe some are better at it than others. This is what wikipedia says
[en.wikipedia.org] "Neither plants nor animals are independently capable of constructing vitamin B12.[41] Only bacteria and archaea[42] have the enzymes required for its biosynthesis. The total synthesis of B12 was reported by Robert Burns Woodward[43] and Albert Eschenmoser in 1972,[44][45] and remains one of the classic feats of organic synthesis. Species from the following genera are known to synthesize B12: Acetobacterium, Aerobacter, Agrobacterium, Alcaligenes, Azotobacter, Bacillus, Clostridium, Corynebacterium, Flavobacterium, Lactobacillus, Micromonospora, Mycobacterium, Nocardia, Propionibacterium, Protaminobacter, Proteus, Pseudomonas, Rhizobium, Salmonella, Serratia, Streptomyces, Streptococcus and Xanthomonas. Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms.[46] Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years.[47][48] The species Pseudomonas denitrificans and Propionibacterium shermanii are more commonly used today.[49] " Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: February 04, 2013 07:39PM and this is how b12 is absorbed
[en.wikipedia.org] Absorption and distribution "The human physiology of vitamin B12 is complex, and therefore is prone to mishaps leading to vitamin B12 deficiency. Protein-bound vitamin B12 must be released from the proteins by the action of digestive proteases in both the stomach and small intestine.[60] Gastric acid releases the vitamin from food particles; therefore antacid and acid-blocking medications (especially proton-pump inhibitors) may inhibit absorption of B12. In addition some elderly people produce less stomach acid as they age thereby increasing their probability of B12 deficiencies.[61] B12 taken in a low-solubility, non-chewable supplement pill form may bypass the mouth and stomach and not mix with gastric acids, but these are not necessary for the absorption of free B12 not bound to protein. R-proteins (such as haptocorrins and cobalaphilin) are B12 binding proteins that are produced in the salivary glands. They must wait until B12 has been freed from proteins in food by pepsin in the stomach. B12 then binds to the R-Proteins to avoid degradation of it in the acidic environment of the stomach.[62] This pattern of secretion of a binding protein secreted in a previous digestive step, is repeated once more before absorption. The next binding protein is intrinsic factor (IF), a protein synthesized by gastric parietal cells that is secreted in response to histamine, gastrin and pentagastrin, as well as the presence of food. In the duodenum, proteases digest R-proteins and release B12, which then binds to IF, to form a complex (IF/B12). B12 must be attached to IF for it to be absorbed, as receptors on the enterocytes in the terminal ileum of the small bowel only recognize the B12-IF complex; in addition, intrinsic factor protects the vitamin from catabolism by intestinal bacteria. Absorption of food vitamin B12 thus requires an intact and functioning stomach, exocrine pancreas, intrinsic factor, and small bowel. Problems with any one of these organs makes a vitamin B12 deficiency possible. Individuals who lack intrinsic factor have a decreased ability to absorb B12. In pernicious anemia, there is a lack of IF due to autoimmune atrophic gastritis, in which antibodies form against parietal cells. Antibodies may alternately form against and bind to IF, inhibiting it from carrying out its B12 protective function. Due to the complexity of B12 absorption, geriatric patients, many of whom are hypoacidic due to reduced parietal cell function, have an increased risk of B12 deficiency.[63] This results in 80–100% excretion of oral doses in the feces versus 30–60% excretion in feces as seen in individuals with adequate IF.[63] Once the IF/B12 complex is recognized by specialized ileal receptors, it is transported into the portal circulation. The vitamin is then transferred to transcobalamin II (TC-II/B12), which serves as the plasma transporter. Hereditary defects in production of the transcobalamins and their receptors may produce functional deficiencies in B12 and infantile megaloblastic anemia, and abnormal B12 related biochemistry, even in some cases with normal blood B12 levels.[64] For the vitamin to serve inside cells, the TC-II/B12 complex must bind to a cell receptor, and be endocytosed. The transcobalamin-II is degraded within a lysosome, and free B12 is finally released into the cytoplasm, where it may be transformed into the proper coenzyme, by certain cellular enzymes (see above). It's important to note that investigations into the intestinal absorption of B12 point out that the upper limit per single dose, under normal conditions, is about 1.5 µg: "Studies in normal persons indicated that about 1.5 µg is assimilated when a single dose varying from 5 to 50 µg is administered by mouth. In a similar study Swendseid et al. stated that the average maximum absorption was 1.6 µg [...]" [65] The total amount of vitamin B12 stored in body is about 2–5 mg in adults. Around 50% of this is stored in the liver.[18] Approximately 0.1% of this is lost per day by secretions into the gut, as not all these secretions are reabsorbed. Bile is the main form of B12 excretion; however, most of the B12 secreted in the bile is recycled via enterohepatic circulation.[18] Due to the extremely efficient enterohepatic circulation of B12, the liver can store several years’ worth of vitamin B12; therefore, nutritional deficiency of this vitamin is rare. How fast B12 levels change depends on the balance between how much B12 is obtained from the diet, how much is secreted and how much is absorbed. B12 deficiency may arise in a year if initial stores are low and genetic factors unfavourable, or may not appear for decades. In infants, B12 deficiency can appear much more quickly.[66]" Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 07:40PM by Panchito. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
la_veronique
()
Date: February 04, 2013 09:27PM hey panchito
if methylcobalamin is produced from the reduction of cyanocobalamin how is the cyanide concentration lessened or does it remain the same? if it does remain the same then the cyanide concern ought to be extended to both the methylcobalamin in addition to the cyanocobalamin and not just the methylcobalamin just a thought thanks for answering all my previous questions looked through all the links you provided very helpful thank you Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: February 04, 2013 11:16PM from what I understand, methyl b12 (a recent supplement) does not have cyano. I think the liver can convert methyl b12 to Adenosylcobalamin b12 for storage (in the liver).
[en.wikipedia.org] "Non-cyano forms as supplements Recently sublingual methylcobalamin has become available in 1 mg tablets. Such tablets have higher bioavailability than the older cyanocobalamin. No cyanide is released with methylcobolamin, although the amount of cyanide (2% of the weight, or 20 micrograms cyanide in a 1 mg cyanocobalamin tab) is far less than ingested in many natural foods. Although the safety of cyanocobalamin has not been seriously questioned, the safety of the other types is also well-established.[97]" eating many bananas 'could' be detrimental in order to absorb b12 because of potasium [en.wikipedia.org] "Potassium: Potassium supplements can reduce absorption of vitamin B12 in some people. This effect has been reported with potassium chloride and, to a lesser extent, with potassium citrate. Potassium might contribute to vitamin B12 deficiency in some people with other risk factors, but routine supplements are not necessary.[37]" b12 could improve hypo glands. Many people think their problems are nutrients but in reality are hypo glands like for example in sugar metabolism. So getting b12 could be a deal breaker for succeeding in some types of diets. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 11:27PM by Panchito. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
la_veronique
()
Date: February 05, 2013 05:16AM panchito
thanks for allaying my concerns greatly appreciated awesome i got a methyl product thanks again!! Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: February 05, 2013 10:08AM this is a sublingual
[www.amazon.com] these are a better in quality than the one I referenced earlier but more expensive. They have it in 5000 and 1000 mcg 5000 [www.amazon.com] 1000 [www.amazon.com] they make a difference in levels of energy for the next day. But it takes like +4 months to fill up the tank for the 60+ trillion cells. So the glands don't recover right away. Some people use then in the soles (feet) to simulate walking on dirt. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Tamukha
()
Date: February 06, 2013 02:11PM la_veronique,
The Vitamin Code companion book doesn't stipulate the form of B12, just describes how it's synthesized, which is similiar to how our guts would do it if we were able to. KidRaw, Bifidus bacteria are commonly found in mother's milk, or rather, mothers' milks, as they are necessary for immune development via the intestinal tract in all mammals. The statement at that website, "The strain we must avoid in our SCD™ yoghurt is Bifidus as it has been found to cause bacterial overgrowth in the gut." is unsupported by a footnote, so maybe this is a finding unique to their processing system and I'd ask someone at the company directly to explain the statement. One of the ways in which probiotic bacteria work is in literally infesting the small intestine to the point where there is limited physical room for pathogenic bacteria to occupy or reproduce. So the assertion that an overgrowth of biocompatible, beneficial bacteria could be harmful to the intestine is odd sounding to me. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
la_veronique
()
Date: February 07, 2013 08:57PM hey panchito
i notice a lot of the b -12 sublinguals at the store are sugary cherry ish flavored does that mean they add sugar or something or is it just some cherry essence thing hard to tell also the patches look really cool easy to use where is the best place to put it on i've never worn any patches do you put it on your shoulder or on your stomach or something like what is the best place for absorption i guess is what i'm asking new to patches of any kind once i was tempted to get a chinese herb sort of liver patch thing but then i thought naaaaahhh it was probably overkill but the b - 12 thing i think looks pretty good tamukha <<One of the ways in which probiotic bacteria work is in literally infesting the small intestine to the point where there is limited physical room for pathogenic bacteria to occupy or reproduce. So the assertion that an overgrowth of biocompatible, beneficial bacteria could be harmful to the intestine is odd sounding to me.>> this is sound logic damn good point you bring up yeah, i don't understand the bifidus thing being harmful either if that is the case why are almost all probiotics inundated with bifidus strains if they were harmful and overgrowth, i would think, like you pointed out, is good in this case its like saying "you'll have an overgrowth of money" sounds good to me also, thanks for letting me know the low down with the garden of life products so, if it is processed akin to how we would create it in our guts doesn't it STILL make either one or the other or both or whatever other types? okay, so the question is, if it were created the way we would naturally do it in our guts, what does our guts naturally do... what types does it naturally create? i guess that's what i'm trying to get at thanks again tamkukha, panchito, prana muchly much much appreciated !! Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: February 08, 2013 07:41PM la_veronique Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > hey panchito > > > i notice a lot of the b -12 sublinguals at the > store are sugary cherry ish flavored > does that mean they add sugar or something or is > it just some cherry essence thing > hard to tell sublinguals contain a magic ingredient called cherry flavor. The cheapest version of the skin patch leave a residue than comes off. I put them on the shoulder (I move the shoulder a lot) but I may start experimenting in other places like the feet. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
brome
()
Date: February 08, 2013 11:50PM All of the vegetarian animals acquire all the B12 they need without the need to buy any pills. If we need pills on a permanent basis, something is seriously wrong with our dietary theory. This article on this site points to some possible problems:
[www.living-foods.com]
It may be necessary to eliminate onions, garlic, all mustards (radish, kale, cabbage, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, turnips, broccoli, collards, kohlrabi, etc.), and maybe a host of other vegetables that may be detrimental to B12 production. Re: B-12 and Raw Vitamin Code, also Vega and Nutritional yeast
Posted by:
brome
()
Date: February 09, 2013 12:24AM Also mentioned by several authors is that b12 producing bacteria and the resulting vitamin are found on the unwashed skin of fruits and vegetables. As you wash them you lose vitamin b12.
[www.wholevegan.com] [www.veganforum.com] Here's an idea for rejuvilac: Take unwashed grapes, perhaps Pinot noir, Cabernet sauvignon, or Merlot, and mash them. Let ferment for a day or two. Press out the juice for a drink rich in a friendly flora of micro organism including the needed B12 perhaps. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2013 12:34AM by brome. Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
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