Hi all,

Because I cannot afford to get the HS's book on Fasting right now, but will later, am wondering if any of you have read up on his Fasting ideals??

If so, can you possibly answer these questions for me??

1. How long does he recommend doing a fast for?
2. How often does he recommend doing a fast?
3. What does he recommend in the way of what to ingest? Water only? Juice and water only??

Thanks all!!

Mindy

Wow!!

I am shocked at what I just found out regarding Herbert Shelton. Whether this is true or not, I am not certain as the info came from Wikipedia, but it states this about Dr. S.

"By 1972, at the age of 77, he was completely bedridden from a degenerative neuro-muscular disease believed to be Parkinson's disease.[2] He died thirteen years later, unable to improve his own health despite many attempts. His contemporaries were shocked to see him unable to walk, speak normally, or write."

Anyone know if this is true??

Mindy

Yes it is true, but it's not highly publicised. That's why you shouldn't believe everything you read in books or on the internet about health, or when people give you simplistic solutions to complex physical problems.

Keep reading but don't believe everything blindly.

mindy66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "By 1972, at the age of 77, he was completely
> bedridden from a degenerative neuro-muscular
> disease believed to be Parkinson's disease.[2]

that sounds like a chronic disease. While I think fasting can help in many cases, it is not a cure-all tool that makes people live forever. I myself don't practice it but I am sure it helps somehow

<<<1. How long does he recommend doing a fast for?>>>

Shelton always said that the biggest mistake people made when it came to fasting was not fasting long enough or till completion, but no one, including Shelton who supervised over 50,000 Fasts, can give a blanket statement as it depends on each person’s individual circumstances.

Here are some of my notes regarding how long we should fast according to Herbert Shelton:

"I rarely tell anybody that he needs a long fast. I tell him instead that we will be guided by developments." p. 128 "Fasting For Renewal of life"

"Let developments determine the length of the fast. p. 53 "Fasting Can Save Your Life"

"There are a thousand reasons for ending the fast short of its natural termination. In many instances the results of these short fasts are disappointing. In some instances the premature breaking is the difference between complete success and partial failure.

A job only half done is not done at all. Certainly health is worth a little added effort. Missing a few more meals is a small price to pay for the results that can accrue to the individual willing to make the effort required." p. 64 "Fasting Can Save Your Life"

"How long should the underweight individual fast to secure improvement in his nutritional processes? There is no absolute undeviating answer. Each case is different as the condition of each patient is different. In some cases a fast of ten days to two weeks will prove adequate. In others much longer fasts may be called for. A short fast is rarely enough to secure the correction of the defects of the nutritional processes needed to enable the chronically underweight person to gain weight. Here, as elsewhere, the fast should be taken under competent supervision and the judgment of the supervisor respected." p. 80 "Fasting Can Save Your Life"

"It is possible to carry a fast too far. It is possible to break it prematurely. In the first case the patient is damaged, in the second he fails to receive the legitimately expected results." p. 230 "The Science and Fine Art of Fasting"

"Thousands of sufferers attempt to do with a fast of two to four days or more. 'I tried fasting and it did not help me,' they say. Playing around with short fasts and semi-fasts will seldom give satisfactory results. Fast for results or forget it...this is my advice." p. 237 "The Science and Fine Art of Fasting"

<<<2. How often does he recommend doing a fast?>>>

Shelton’s Logical Rule was to “Fast when there is a need for it.”

3. What does he recommend in the way of what to ingest? Water only? Juice and water only??

NEVER combine a Juice Fast with a Water Fast and remember, Water Fasting is no longer safe to do with all of the Chemicals in our Environment, which end up in us, unless we are free of those Chemicals.

<<<"By 1972, at the age of 77, he was completely bedridden from a degenerative neuro-muscular disease believed to be Parkinson's disease.[2] He died thirteen years later, unable to improve his own health despite many attempts. His contemporaries were shocked to see him unable to walk, speak normally, or write.">>>

Yes, Shelton understood the Science of Healing, but like most Natural Hygienists, he failed to understand the Art of Healing. The Science of Healing works without the Art in about 90% of the cases, which explains why some people do NOT get well when they just Remove the Primary Causes. I explain this a little more in my response to BJ below.

<<<That's why you shouldn't believe everything you read in books or on the internet about health, or when people give you simplistic solutions to complex physical problems.>>>

There really is a very SIMPLE Solution to about 90% what some people think are COMPLEX Problems, but the other 10% can be very Complicated!!! To illustrate my point and to follow up on Shelton’s Health Problems, here is an exchange between me and some guy named Tim on the Comments section from a Dr. Mercola Article.

TimM

The philosophy of Natural Hygiene seems to purport that adhering to its principles will transform one into a perfect specimen of health. But that wasn't the case with its most ardent proponents. I saw some pictures of Herbert Shelton in his later years and his teeth were in terrible shape. Furthermore, as I mentioned in another comment on this article, Shelton suffered from a very debilitating neuromuscular disease for the last 13 years of his life. T.C. Fry, another proponent of Natural Hygiene, also suffered with serious health problems before dying at age 70. Fry was very extreme in his views in that he practiced and advocated fruitarianism--eating nothing but fruit! Fry's autopsy report stated that he died of a coronary embolism and that he had atherosclerotic plaques in his legs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JohnRose

TimM, most if not all Natural Hygienists do NOT understand the Ripple Effect and do NOT make allowances for any Temporary Impairment or Permanent Damage that we might have. Natural Hygienists do, however, understand the Law of Cause & Effect and do so much better than everyone else, but they don’t know that there is a way to screw up the Law of Cause & Effect and that is to not consider the Ripple Effect.

So Shelton and Fry suffered and died primarily because they did NOT understand the Ripple Effect and did NOT make any allowances for their DHA and B12 deficiencies, respectively. And then, just about everyone else doesn’t understand that we have 2 Groups of Needs that we must Satisfy - one is based on the Law of Cause & Effect and the other is based on the Ripple Effect and many of us use our Needs based on the Ripple Effect to discount the importance of our Needs based on the Law of Cause & Effect. In other words, we don’t think that our Needs based on the Law of Cause & Effect are True because they don’t Satisfy our Needs based on the Ripple Effect.

Shelton and Fry also overworked and failed to get enough sleep, which everyone knows is 1 of our most important Essential Needs and neither of them were raised on this diet nor were they able to adhere 100% to it. Shelton was also kicked in the mouth in 1945 by his stallion, which was why his teeth were bad and Fry was shot in the head, so there are lots of other factors that contributed to their longevity or lack of.

The point here is to NOT be Dogmatic like most Natural Hygienists and be open to Modifying the Diet that we are Biologically Adapted to Eat (based on the Law of Cause & Effect) with the inclusion of Supplements or Animal Products if needed (based on the Ripple Effect).

Martix, you nailed it - there is more confusion and ignorance regarding what to eat than any other subject!

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2013 01:52PM by John Rose.

<<<that sounds like a chronic disease. While I think fasting can help in many cases, it is not a cure-all tool that makes people live forever. I myself don't practice it but I am sure it helps somehow>>>

Panchito, Shelton's condition had to do with a DHA Deficiency and Fasting is NOT a Solution for this type of Deficiency.

[www.drfuhrman.com]
Leaders of the Vegan Movement Develop Parkinson's:
Case Studies

Herbert Shelton (1895 – 1985) a naturopath and chiropractor and the influential founder of the American Natural Hygiene Society and Nature Cure movement in America and prolific health writer advocated a natural food vegetarian diet of mostly raw fruits, vegetables and nuts. I read all of his highly motivating books, newsletters and writings in my teens. He lived in Texas, was physically fit, grew lots of his own food and ate carefully and fasted periodically. Of course he did not get cancer, he did not get heart disease, but he died of Parkinson's disease and was so severely affected by the age of 78 that even walking was difficult. In 1973 when I met him he was already severely hunched over and had a difficult time walking and caring for himself. Though he lived many years with this significant disability, the quality of his later years was extremely poor.

Prominent Vegetarian and Health Advocate (1921-2008) – this leader in the natural health movement and a personal friend to me also suffered from and eventually died from a fall related to his Parkinson's disease. During his young adult life he embarked on the path of healthy living and vegetarianism. A follower of Shelton's works, he operated a large health food store, one of the first to sell organic fruits and vegetables in America; he became a leader in the health food industry. Of course he was not at risk of cancer or heart disease with his excellent diet, but he developed Parkinson's which limited the quality of his later years.

When he was developing his Parkinsonian tremors, I ordered blood tests and was shocked to see his blood results showing almost a zero DHA level on his fatty acid test, in spite of adequate ALA consumption from nuts and seeds eaten daily. I had never seen a DHA level that low before. Since that time I have drawn DHA blood levels on other patients with Parkinson's and also found very low DHA levels.

Was it a coincidence, that these leaders in the natural food, vegetarian movement, who ate a very healthy vegan diet and no junk food would both develop Parkinson's? I thought to myself--could it be that deficiencies in DHA predispose one to Parkinson's? Do men have worse ability to convert short chain omega-3 into long chain DHA? Is that why Parkinson's affects more men than women? Is there evidence to suggest that DHA deficiencies lead to later life neurologic problems? Are there primate studies to show DHA deficiencies in monkeys leads to Parkinson's? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding, yes.

More than 1 million Americans suffer from Parkinson's Disease (PD), a neurodegenerative disease that is clinically characterized by resting tremor, muscular rigidity, gait problems and impaired ability to initiate movements. Recent scientific findings show diets rich in omega-3 fatty acids, in particular DHA (docosahexaenoic acid), have a protective effect on this type of neurodegenerative disease. Studies in animals clearly show that supplementation of DHA can alter brain DHA concentrations and thereby modify brain functions leading to reduced risk of neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.1

A recent study examined mice which were exposed to two diets; one group was fed a diet with DHA and other omega-3 fatty acids; while the other group was given ordinary food, lacking DHA. After a period of time they were given a dose of a chemical that causes the same damage to the brain as Parkinson's disease. The mice on the DHA diet seemed to be immune to the effects of the chemical, whereas the mice that ate ordinary food developed symptoms of the disease.

According to the researchers, among the mice that had been given omega-3 supplementation - in particular DHA - omega-3 fatty acids replaced the omega-6 fatty acids in their brains. Due to the fact that concentrations of other omega-3s (LNA and EPA) had maintained levels in both groups of mice, the researchers suggested that the protective effect against Parkinson's indeed came from DHA.2

Another conclusion drawn from this finding is that a brain containing a lot of omega-6 fatty acids may create a fertile ground for developing Parkinson's disease. These fatty acids, are abundant in foods rich in either vegetable oil or animal fat, which we already know contribute negatively to our health.

Another study observed the effect of DHA on monkeys treated with MPTP, a drug that induces Parkinson's like symptoms, and the results suggested that DHA can reduce the severity of, or delay the development of these drug-induced symptoms and therefore can offer therapeutic benefits in the treatment of Parkinson's. 3

Overall, this research provides evidence that DHA deficiencies can leave us vulnerable to developing diseases like Parkinson's and Alheizmer's. If you are a nutritarian, flexitarain, vegan, or vegetarian and you are not taking DHA or confirming your levels are adequate with blood work you are being negligent, and potentially increasing your risk of such a disease in later life. All the good efforts on proper nutrition can be undone with one deficiency such as Vitamin D, B12, or DHA. I see this every week in my practice.

History Repeats Itself

Some authors, doctors and leaders of the vegan movement today are heavily biased towards the idea of not needing these supplements. They simply give inadequate nutritional advice and in spite of all the science they still pooh-pooh taking long-chain omega-3 DHA. They are risking the quality of their own lives and that of their followers.

Likewise, I have seen so many vegan-promoting doctors and authors negate the need for taking B12, as well as dismiss the need to take vitamin D, stating minimal sunshine is enough. They also deny the need for omega-3 supplementation. There is so much scientific literature available today pointing to the contrary, however, this irresponsible information keeps radiating from the podium of lecture halls.

It reminds me of all the statements in the past, that the need for B12 was exaggerated and that the small amount of bacteria on organic produce or in seaweed was sufficient.

TC Fry (1926 – 1996)- another long-term Natural Hygienist, raw foodest, vegetarian-fruitarian, advocated you did not need supplements as food contained all that we need. He died of an atherosclerotic-related embolism at the age of 70. I saw his hospital record at his death and reviewed his blood work drawn immediately prior to his death. It was quite revealing. He had severe B12, deficiency, so long-standing that his B12 levels were almost undetectable and the lowest I have ever seen. It is kind of interesting reading internet interpretations of why he died, such as "did not practice what he preached," "cheated on his diet," "too much sex," "ozone treatments for his vascular disease". He died prematurely simply because long-standing B12 deficiency leads to extremely high homocysteine levels, which can cause intra-vascular inflammation and cardiovascular disease.

I have seen this over and over again in vegans not supplementing with B12. I even had a patient with extremely severe hyper-homocysteinemia and vascular disease who flew in to see me from Scandinavia. When I diagnosed the problem and discussed how to solve it, she still refused to take the B12 supplements, stating that Dr. Shelton and Dr. Vetrano said that nature provided us with all that we need in natural plant foods. She flew home angry that I disagreed. She died soon after.

Don't be fooled into thinking that by merely eating right you are doing all you can do to protect your health. People must be made aware that by neglecting to take the supplements that are essential to assuring nutritional excellence, they are putting themselves in harm's way. Specifically, not taking DHA, B12 and vitamin D can be potentially dangerous and even life threatening.

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2013 02:01PM by John Rose.

We shouldn't need to take supplements as standard though unless there is some metabolic reason that one would need too. Isn't this exactly the opposite what the raw food diet is meant to achieve by supplementation being mandatory in order to achieve a nutritionally complete diet?

Nutrients such as Vitamin B12 and Omega 3 fatty acids are very easy to get from dietary sources, just not vegan ones unfortunately. Maybe Herbert Shelton's vegan and low consumption DHA foods pre-disposed him to Parkinsons, there are so many factors involved that it would be hard to tell, there is more than enough research showing vegetarians and vegans to have low levels of DHA.

Many individuals have poor conversion issues of ALA to DHA also so it is wise to intake the full form of these nutrients. Low fat vegan diets exacerbate the issue further by consuming low levels of all types of fats and fat soluble vitamins.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2013 02:14PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nutrients such as Vitamin B12 and Omega 3 fatty
> acids are very easy to get from dietary sources,
> just not vegan ones unfortunately.


Hi PL.

how would your theory about proper diet explain the other cases like for example Norman Walker?

[en.wikipedia.org]

"Walker observed a raw food diet, with fresh raw juices, until his death at the age of 99 years. Although claims have been made that he was both physically and mentally healthy and active up to the day of his death when he peacefully died during his sleep one night at his home in Cottonwood, Yavapai County, Arizona"

I don't put much stock or belief into what any health promoter or guru says they eat, to live to 99 is impressive none the less, i look towards the trends of the majority however. There are breatharian Indian men who claim to live on sunlight until 130, i don't believe a word of that either. My friends gran lived to 98 on cigarettes, daily whiskey and a diet of baked beans and cheese toasties.

Diet plays less of a role in health that many of us believe, a healthy balanced diet is essential but health is dependent on a multitude of different factors. The most important being a low to no stress life and managing stress in healthy ways.

John is very right that if following a vegan diet then B12, D and Omega 3 supplementation is essential, but its only essential because the diet doesn't provide these nutrients from food sources.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2013 02:34PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Diet plays less of a role in health that
> many of us believe.


Then how come this did not apply to Herbert Shelton? Could it be that his diet did not have much to do with his death?

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Diet plays less of a role in health that
> > many of us believe.
>
>
> Then how come this did not apply to Herbert
> Shelton? Could it be that his diet did not have
> much to do with his death?

It was probably insignificant in my opinion, although if he did have chronically low levels of DHA then it will have played a role in the severity and maybe even the cause of his Parkinson's disease.

With complex disorders such as Parkinson's there can often be a number of factors involved, that i doubt his low DHA levels alone would have caused this. Maybe though, who knows, either way we know from research that low DHA levels are not a good thing and we can easily get enough of this nutrient from dietary food sources.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2013 02:47PM by powerlifer.

According to his books, Norman Walker used honey, raw cream and some cheese so he wasn't a strict vegan. Also, he didn't seem to worry too much about food combining because he would make a meal of juicy fruit, nuts, vegies, dried fruit or whatever and washed down with a juice ( another taboo)- but he seemed to be a moderate eater which helps explain his longevity. You can't live a long life if you are going to be eating 15 bananas in one sitting as you get older.
Also, he didn't adhere to other taboos like having oils, garlic, juices, etc. - and we might as well throw in the colonics.

He obviously found what worked for him, and for each individual that's all that really matters.In a lot of cases the books that were written in the past are a snapshot in time of where these people were at that point in time. There was no internet in those days to follow their progress or the veracity of their claims or how they were a few years afterwards. We just accepted their claims as fact in those days because we didn't know any differently. We are lucky now to be able to get real feedback from real people and to question. That's why it's good to have the honesty and diversity of opinion this board now allows, instead of the rigid dogma that we had to endure in the past - and what is still happening on other boards.

BJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to his books, Norman Walker used honey,
> raw cream and some cheese so he wasn't a strict
> vegan. Also, he didn't seem to worry too much
> about food combining because he would make a meal
> of juicy fruit, nuts, vegies, dried fruit or
> whatever and washed down with a juice ( another
> taboo)- but he seemed to be a moderate eater which
> helps explain his longevity. You can't live a long
> life if you are going to be eating 15 bananas in
> one sitting as you get older.
> Also, he didn't adhere to other taboos like having
> oils, garlic, juices, etc. - and we might as well
> throw in the colonics.
>
> He obviously found what worked for him, and for
> each individual that's all that really matters.In
> a lot of cases the books that were written in the
> past are a snapshot in time of where these people
> were at that point in time. There was no internet
> in those days to follow their progress or the
> veracity of their claims or how they were a few
> years afterwards. We just accepted their claims as
> fact in those days because we didn't know any
> differently. We are lucky now to be able to get
> real feedback from real people and to question.
> That's why it's good to have the honesty and
> diversity of opinion this board now allows,
> instead of the rigid dogma that we had to endure
> in the past - and what is still happening on other
> boards.


Amen! I am tired of getting inspired by these characters and then it's like "Oh, wait...I am now eating such and such foods." When before they made this extreme case for 100% raw.

If a person smokes a pack a day and lives +100 years, should we all do the same? It is hard to figure things out but easy to see what one wants to see. People will defend what they eat. for example, if they eat a mixed raw (very common), they'll make it look as the gretest thing ever. 100% raw foodist do it too. It depends Who makes the thoughts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 01:48PM by Panchito.

Hey Chris,

To keep this simple for everyone, I’m going to Assign Numbers to my key Points.

<<<We shouldn't need to take supplements as standard though unless there is some metabolic reason that one would need too. Isn't this exactly the opposite what the raw food diet is meant to achieve by supplementation being mandatory in order to achieve a nutritionally complete diet?>>>

Chris,

How many times do I have to tell you that there are 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy and you cannot use our Needs based on the Ripple Effect to DISCOUNT our Needs based on the Law of Cause & Effect and our Anatomy?

Here’s my 1st Point - there are 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy. For some odd reason you just cannot accept this simple fact. I challenge you do address this Point because you NEVER have and we’ve had this conversation plenty of times for you to have had the opportunity to do so and yet, you keep ignoring it!!!

Our Anatomy is that of a PLANT EATER and NOT A MEAT EATER. The fact that we have made Mistakes and created Additional Needs based on those Mistakes does NOT take away from the FACT that our Anatomy has NOT CHANGED to a point where we can Digest, Absorb and Eliminate Animal Products without further Damaging our Body and having a myriad of Warning Signs to prove it.

Here’s my 2nd Point - our Anatomy is that of a PLANT EATER. There are about a dozen Anatomical Characteristics that clearly put all animals in a specific class of eaters and we do NOT have the Anatomy, teeth, enzymes, intestinal tract, etc. to eat Animals! The whole issue is not any more complicated than that, except that we’ve Damaged our Bodies by Eating the Wrong Foods and now, we’ve created Additional Temporary Needs based on the Ripple Effect where Effects become Causes, as in the Causal Loop.

I’ve only had this conversation with you about a dozen times and it boggles my mind how someone who appears to be fairly intelligent cannot understand something as simple as Cause & Effect and the Ripple Effect. I’ve given this example to you before, but since you keep spewing the same old nonsense, it looks like I have to use it again, if not for you, at least for others who might be confused partly because of you. To make this easy on myself, I’ll just cut and paste what I have already written to you before and add my 3rd Point and my 4th Point to it in order to Pile Drive it.

<<<I already addressed your flaws in the thread>>>

Chris,

You have NEVER addressed any Flaws in my Logic. NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!

All that you have done is use 1 Piece from 1 Puzzle to discount 1 Piece from another Puzzle. Don’t you understand that there are 2 Groups of Needs and you are using a Subsequent Need from the Group based on the Ripple Effect to Negate an Essential Need from the Group based on the Law of Cause & Effect?

Here’s my 3rd Point, which is the same as my 1st Point because you have NEVER addressed the fact that there are 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy and you can’t use one Group of Needs to Negate the other Group of Needs.

Let me illustrate my point one more time…

Let’s go back to the Law of Cause & Effect and look at the first 3 of our 12 Essential Needs - Air, Water & Food.

Now let’s say that we don’t Satisfy our Need for Clean Air and as I’ve mentioned, if we don’t Satisfy any of our Essential Needs, we create an Additional Temporary Need. For example, if we Smoke Cigarettes, we may Damage our Lungs and may have an Additional Temporary Need for Pure Oxygen. Based on your Logic or Lack of Logic, this person will no longer have a Need for Clean Air because he now has this Additional Temporary Need for Pure Oxygen. This example using Clean Air and Smoking Cigarettes is exactly the same thing as Natural Food and Eating Foods we’re Not Biologically Adapted to Eat. Smoking Cigarettes and Eating Foods we’re Not Biologically Adapted to Eat can DAMAGE OUR BODY and now, we might have an Additional Temporary Need for Pure Oxygen or B12 or DHA. Our Need for Pure Oxygen or B12 or DHA does NOT mean we should Ignore the Laws of Nature and Not Breathe Clean Air or Eat Natural Food.

Here’s my 4th Point - you have NEVER acknowledged the simple Logic that once we Damage our Body with the Wrong Food or the Wrong Air, we create an Additional Temporary Need based on the Ripple Effect or the Causal Loop, in addition to our Original Essential Needs based on the Law of Cause & Effect and our Anatomy, which means that we have 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy.

Once again, the Key here is if we had NEVER made any Mistakes and Satisfied all of our Essential Needs, we would Never have these 2 Additional Temporary Needs based on the Ripple Effect, just like those Norwegians who made Mistakes and ate Unnatural Food for millennia and now can no longer make any DHA or just like anyone who Smokes Cigarettes and now has a Need for Pure Oxygen.

YOU CANNOT USE A MISTAKE AS AN EXCUSE TO KEEP MAKING A MISTAKE!!!

<<<Nutrients such as Vitamin B12 and Omega 3 fatty acids are very easy to get from dietary sources, just not vegan ones unfortunately.>>>

Chris,

But those Dietary Sources are coming from Foods we’re Not Biologically Adapted to Eat. Once again, 1 Group of Needs are based on our Anatomy and the other Group of Needs are based on our Mistakes and the Damage we’ve done to our Anatomy and our Environment. If we make a Mistake and are no longer able to make a Level 2 Nutrient, like DHA, we can’t keep making the same Mistake without having more Negative Feedback.

<<<Many individuals have poor conversion issues of ALA to DHA also so it is wise to intake the full form of these nutrients.>>>

Indeed, this is where the True Art of Healing comes into play because if we keep giving our body a Level 2 Nutrient that Healthy people are supposed to be able to make, our body will atrophy and we’ll NEVER be able to make it.

<<<John is very right that if following a vegan diet then B12, D and Omega 3 supplementation is essential, but its only essential because the diet doesn't provide these nutrients from food sources.>>>

Wrong, I have never said this. All 3 of these Nutrients are supposed to come from Satisfying our 1st Group of Needs. B12 is supposed to come from our Environment, but thanks to the Chemical Revolution and the Industrial Revolution, B12 has become one of those Subsequent Needs that belong to the 2nd Group of Needs we must Satisfy. Likewise, Vitamin D is also supposed to come from our Environment - the Sun, but man has moved away from his Natural Habitant and now, Vitamin D for some people has become another one of those those Subsequent Needs that belong to the 2nd Group of Needs we must Satisfy. And then, DHA is a classic example where Dietary Mistakes create a Subsequent Need that belongs to the 2nd Group of Needs we must Satisfy.

As I’ve mentioned countless times in the past, the fact that we have to Supplement our Ideal Diet does NOT mean a Raw Vegan Diet is NOT our Ideal Diet - it just means that some of us might have to Modify what we are Biologically Adapted to Eat because of the Ripple Effect.

Once again, Smoking Cigarettes and Eating Foods we’re Not Biologically Adapted to Eat can DAMAGE OUR BODY and now, we might have an Additional Temporary Need for Pure Oxygen or B12 or DHA. Our Need for Pure Oxygen or B12 or DHA does NOT mean we should Ignore the Laws of Nature and Not Breathe Clean Air or Eat Natural Food.

Here’s my 5th Point - whenever we DAMAGE OUR BODY and/or OUR ENVIRONMENT we create Additional Temporary Needs that in NO way Negate our Essential Needs for Clean Air, Pure Water, Natural Foods that we are Biologically Adapted to Eat, etc. etc.

The argument that if you have to Supplement, then the Diet is Not Ideal is Not a Logical argument. That would be a Logical argument if we had Not changed the Conditions, but the Conditions have changed and now, we have 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy. The 1st Group of Needs is based on the Law of Cause & Effect, which has to do with our Anatomy and our Environment and the 2nd Group of Needs is based on the Ripple Effect, which has to do with the Damage we’ve done to our Body and our Environment.

Now let’s recap my Main Points and let’s see if you can address those Points.

Point #1 - there are 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy and I challenge you do address this Point because you NEVER have!!!

Point #2 - our Anatomy is that of a PLANT EATER and NOT A MEAT EATER.

Point #3 - there are 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy and you can’t use one Group of Needs to Negate the other Group of Needs.

Point #4 - you have NEVER acknowledged the simple Logic that once we Damage our Body with the Wrong Food or the Wrong Air, we create an Additional Temporary Need based on the Ripple Effect or the Causal Loop, in addition to our Original Essential Needs based on the Law of Cause & Effect and our Anatomy, which means that we have 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy.

Point #5 - whenever we DAMAGE OUR BODY and/or OUR ENVIRONMENT we create Additional Temporary Needs that in NO way Negate our Essential Needs for Clean Air, Pure Water, Natural Foods that we are Biologically Adapted to Eat, etc. etc.

"If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time--a tremendous whack.” -Winston Churchill

Peace and Love..........John

Again synthetic supplements should not be deemed standard in order to achieve a healthy or nutritionally complete diet. If you have some physiological or metabolic need for supplementation then that is a different story and John i have acknowledged this enough times.

The fact is that your need to supplement with Vitamin B12, D and Omega-3's is because your diet lacks or is void of these nutrients, this to me isn't natural or healthy. If you consume a wider variety of foods you won't have this problem or need to supplement. Where does supplementation stop in order to crack over the holes that a raw vegan diet creates, Zinc is also a nutrient of major concern in that a raw vegan diet is far too rich in Copper and often lacks in Zinc by comparison.

Yet you never address this terribly imbalanced ratio of Zinc/Copper on a raw vegan diet. It nearly becomes a complete reverse 1:8 in Coppers favor, when an ideal and healthy Zinc/Copper balance is 8:1 or 6:1 in Zinc's favor.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 04:15PM by powerlifer.

#1) YOU DID NOT ADDRESS ANY OF MY POINTS!!!

We have 2 Groups of Needs and we are NOT Biologically Adapted to Eat Animals.

#2) YOU ARE NOT MAKING ANY SENSE!!!

In one sentence you say that “a physiological or metabolic need for supplementation is a different story” and then, in the very next sentence you include those very physiological or metabolic needs (based on a Damaged Body and a Damaged Environment) as a reason why a Raw Food Diet is lacking. You keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again and since you don’t live a Raw Food Lifestyle and since you don’t encourage others to live this way, which is the whole purpose of this Website, you’re beginning to make me think that you might even be an Internet Shill - [consciouslifenews.com] .

In many ways Chris, you remind me of something Francois De La Rochefoucauld once said, “No man is clever enough to know all the evil he does.”

Peace and Love..........John

Shill lol you make me laugh John. Ill add that to the list of names you have called me and others on this forum, who simply disagree with your views.

So what would i be shilling ?. Dietary balance, eating a wider variety of foods than the restricted raw vegan diet offers, not having to rely on synthetic supplements to make your diet complete etc. Not getting sucked in by people who claim to be experts yet aren't ?.

I love that you quote my posts and save these clippings because then people get to see a balanced viewpoint, then they get to see your posts John lol.

You have to remember at one point my views on food were so distorted that i thought that a raw vegan diet was healthy, which is why i was originally on this forum. I even tried fruitarian/80/10/10 at one point, that is enough to make me laugh these days, not sure what i was thinking at that point to be honest looking back.

I guess the marketing and raw propaganda sucked me in like it does every other newbie. Most of these people though won't be able to follow the diet for more than a few days/weeks at best, if they are able to do that. These people turn over quicker than a checkout at walmart, in a month these people are gone from the forum and a new set of newbies are sucked into this dietary experiment at best.

Hey John, show me one culture or indigenous tribe who eat strictly vegan and raw?. Why is there none ?. What makes me laugh the most when i hear you say that we are designed to eat a raw vegan diet. If this is the case let me ask, where do you source the sheer volume of plant foods required if every individual is eating raw vegan ?.

The answer is we can't, there wouldn't be anywhere near enough plant foods growing for this diet to be sustainable year round for the entire population, not by a long shot. This alone proves the theory is a laughable joke, its all fine living in western countries where you can import kilograms of Californian dates to sustain your caloric needs.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 06:48PM by powerlifer.

I think it is well known that all humans came from the land of Nubia (~ Ethiopia). This land was located in the equator. Humans emigrated from the ecuator and because of that they needed fire and had to find new types of food. For example, germany needs to import fruits. They don't grow there. Germany rellies on fired meat because animals are used as compromise to bring what they cannot get at that lattitude and climate. Germans will say, we need fire to live or we die. We need meat to live or will die. If humans go to the moon they say, we need an oxigen helmet or we will die. If we go back to where we came from, we could rely on food of that lattitude without using fired foods. we don't need to convert meat to fired meat and then be able to eat it. The technology is there now that we can use 'equator' foods (our original food) while living on other lattitudes of the planet. the argument of the b12 deficiency shugs when trying to explain why people who eat lots of meat are b12 deficient. People who eats broths of bones do not usually like vegetables. Have anybody ever seen another animal doing broths or needing b12? The b12 argument is what meat eaters have as a mental justification. Can humans live without fire? YES

People who include animal foods in there diet and suffer from B12 deficiency will almost always have a problem with absorption such as a lack of intrinsic factor. Where as with vegans in most cases B12 deficiency occurs simply from lack of dietary intake, stores of Vitamin B12 in the liver can last for months/years so its not always obvious in the beginning.

Those with absorption issues could supplement with B12 and it would make little difference, if they weren't absorbing the B12. The fact that a small number of meat eaters develop B12 deficiency from absorption issues should not be justification by vegans not to include foods that contain this vitamin.

Vegetarians and vegans have been shown in multiple studies to be consistently low in Vitamin B12, directly due to lack of dietary intake.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 06:53PM by powerlifer.

hi PL.

Your theory would imply that not one single person would live long term without b12 from meat. Yet, the 'studies' do not talk about people who never ate meat and who are not b12 deficeint. Maybe those successful people should be the ones making the pyramid table.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hi PL.
>
> Your theory would imply that not one single person
> would live long term without b12 from meat. Yet,
> the 'studies' do not talk about people who never
> ate meat and who are not b12 deficeint. Maybe
> those successful people should be the ones making
> the pyramid table.

Hey Panchito,

Your post doesn't really make sense sorry ?. The people in these studies who weren't consuming a dietary source of B12 were found to be low or deficient whilst consuming a vegan or vegetarian diet, consistently over a number of well designed studies

This like i say, shows that a lack of dietary intake is the problem for vegans and even vegetarians to some degree.

Ive re-read your question, sure many can probably live on B12 supplements and not consume animal foods but there are many who won't get away with this. Sometimes synthetic supplements are not tolerated well and as such this is an issue, if you are not going to adopt a dietary source. The real question should be is it natural to have to rely on synthetic supplements in order to make a diet complete ?.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 07:16PM by powerlifer.

No cobalt no B12. Maybe there were volcanos in the original land that made for a rich soil in Cobalt. Ho yeah, lots of volcanos there. How about that. Have there been studies relating soil and b12 defieciency? That would be the bomb. And that could explain the low b12 studies and also why moving away from our original area made for compromises.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 07:22PM by Panchito.

The cobalt connection is insignificant if you are still not consuming a dietary source of Vitamin B12.

In my opinion for the metabolically, average healthy individual a small amount of unrefined salts such as himalayan salt and/or dried seaweeds are a good source of cobalt and other hard to come by trace/ultra-trace elements.

Again cobalt is insignificant if you are not consuming a dietary source of Vitamin B12.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 07:33PM by powerlifer.

Ho no. cobalt makes b12 *IN THE SOIL* you don't eat cobalt you eat b12. The soil is choked full of bacteria as an important element of the ecosystem.

Yes but cobalt still relies on the individual consuming a dietary B12 source, there is no credible evidence that cobalt alone can substitute your need for consuming vitamin B12.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]

cobalt makes b12. b12 is "stuck" on the roots of plants. Therefore, there is no b12 deficiency.

Hey Chris,

Once again, YOU DID NOT ADDRESS ANY OF MY POINTS!!!

<<<Shill lol you make me laugh John. Ill add that to the list of names you have called me and others on this forum, who simply disagree with your views.>>>

No wonder I can’t get through to you. Your comprehension skills leave much to be desired. I NEVER called you a Shill - I only said and I’ll quote exactly what I said, “you’re beginning to make me think that you might even be an Internet Shill.” The fact that you can extrapolate what I said into calling you a Shill explains why you can’t seem to add 2 + 2 and actually reinforces my belief that you may indeed have an ulterior motive for being on a Website that Promotes a Way of Life that you do NOT follow or believe in.

As far as that list of names you claimed I called you, I’d love to see it. The only time I’ve actually called you a name is where I wrote, “Chris, you are either monumentally naïve or extremely Evil and I’m still not sure which one it is, although, I too was extremely naïve when I was your age.”

Once again, you don’t live a Raw Food Lifestyle and you don’t encourage others to live this way, which is the whole purpose of this Website.

Indeed, it seems that you are afraid to have an honest discussion because I have gone out of my way to make this simple.

Once again, I challenge you do ADDRESS ANY OF MY POINTS!!!

Peace and Love..........John

John im more than happy to have an open discussion on nutrition with you(be aware im no expert like yourself), you however are more content with belittling my maturity or intelligence, this to me suggests that you are afraid, coupled with the fact that you never answer my queries.

I have addressed numerous points but you continue to ignore my questions, for example raw vegan deficiencies, dietary mineral imbalances such as with Copper and Zinc caused from a raw vegan diet, the fact that there wouldn't be anywhere near enough plant food to sustain the population etc. The fact that there are no recorded cultures or indigenous tribes who live solely on strict vegan diets ?.

But you conveniently ignore these questions, i wonder why.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 08:16PM by powerlifer.

" I think it is well known that humans came from the land of Nubia ( the Equator )". Do you think, or is it accepted science or fact? Did we evolve from the apes? How long ago, and does anyone really know, and does it matter any more what what we ate and where we lived millenia ago? Even assuming you are right, we are not the same race as we might have been hundreds of thousands of years ago, so it's just a fantasy to argue that we should be living as if we had the same bodies and lived in the same locales as we did eons ago.