Chris,

As soon as you address the Points I made above, which are the exact same Points that I’ve been making ever since we start discussing this a long time ago, I’ll be more than happy to answer all of your questions. In fact, I have always answered all of your questions in the past, but since you have NEVER addressed the Logic behind the Points I have made, I will treat your questions in the same way that you have been treating my questions and that's by ignoring them. However, I will not stoop to your level by twisting what you say and claim that you’re calling me names and then start whining because I’m not making any sense.

So if you want to proceed from here, I do have one stipulation and that is that your answers have to make sense. Please don’t do what you did above where in one sentence you say that “a physiological or metabolic need for supplementation is a different story” and then, in the very next sentence you include those very physiological or metabolic needs as a reason why a Raw Food Diet is lacking and then, you turn around and act like as if you’ve addressed my Point. This shows a complete Lack of Logic and if you are genuine and sincere and truly want to have an honest discussion, Logic must dictate, otherwise, it’s a waste of my time.

Once again, here is a recap of my Main Points - the same Points I’ve made since Day 1 and let’s see if you can address those Points, but this time you have to make sense.

Point #1 - there are 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy and I challenge you do address this Point because you NEVER have!!!

Point #2 - our Anatomy is that of a PLANT EATER and NOT A MEAT EATER.

Point #3 - there are 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy and you can’t use one Group of Needs to Negate the other Group of Needs.

Point #4 - you have NEVER acknowledged the simple Logic that once we Damage our Body with the Wrong Food or the Wrong Air, we create an Additional Temporary Need based on the Ripple Effect or the Causal Loop, in addition to our Original Essential Needs based on the Law of Cause & Effect and our Anatomy, which means that we have 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy.

Point #5 - whenever we DAMAGE OUR BODY and/or OUR ENVIRONMENT we create Additional Temporary Needs that in NO way Negate our Essential Needs for Clean Air, Pure Water, Natural Foods that we are Biologically Adapted to Eat, etc. etc.

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2013 12:14AM by John Rose.

BJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did we evolve from the apes?

this is what you are

[en.wikipedia.org]

"A primate (Listeni/?pra?me?t/ PRY-mayt) is a mammal of the order Primates (Listeni/pra??me?ti?z/ pry-MAY-teez; Latin: "prime, first rank",[2] which contains prosimians and simians.[3] Primates arose from ancestors that lived in the trees of tropical forests; many primate characteristics represent adaptations to life in this challenging three-dimensional environment. All but a few primate species remain at least partly arboreal.

With the exception of humans, who inhabit every continent,[a] most primates live in tropical or subtropical regions of the Americas, Africa and Asia.[4] They range in size from Madame Berthe's mouse lemur, which weighs only 30 g (1 oz), to the eastern lowland gorilla, weighing over 200 kg (440 lb). "

this is where you came from

[en.wikipedia.org]

"Modern humans, Homo sapiens, evolved in Africa up to 200,000 years ago and reached the Near East around 125,000 years ago.[2] From the Near East, these populations spread east to South Asia by 50,000 years ago, and on to Australia by 40,000 years ago,[3] when for the first time H. sapiens reached territory never reached by H. erectus. H. sapiens reached Europe around 43,000 years ago,[4] eventually replacing the Neanderthal population. East Asia was reached by 30,000 years ago."

"Homo sapiens are supposed to have appeared in East Africa around 200,000 years ago. The oldest individuals found left their marks in the Omo remains (195,000 years ago) and the Homo sapiens idaltu (160,000 years ago), that was found at the Middle Awash site in Ethiopia.[10]"

Hi Mindy,

You can read all about fasting in this book Fasting and Sun Bathing.

From my experience, the best time to fast is when you have symptoms and you have lost your appetite, that is, you are not finding food very palatable. This loss of desire naturally happens when we get a flu or severe cold. Should you find yourself without appetite, and have some symptoms (say mucus, sore throat, fever, etc), then fasting is an excellent way to get well.

How long to fast? Well, either until the symptoms disappear, or your appetite comes back.

How often? Whenever you have symptoms and your appetite is gone.

Water vs juice? Water fasting will obtain the quickest results, but it requires you to stay at home and get as much rest as possible, preferably staying in bed and getting tons of sleep. If you have appetite, the juice fasting might be better, but if you had an appetite, perhaps its not the best time to fast.

The reason hygienists like Shelton and Fry had diseases at the end of their lives is because they led stressful lives. Shelton died in his early 90s, Fry died in his early 70s. A good book to read about Fry's illness and its cause is Errors in Hygiene?!!?. Fry was under a lot of financial pressure, plus was often under litigation, quit eating hygienically towards of end of his life because his partner gave him the "raw foods or me" ultimatum.

Shelton didn't eat organic foods. He also was under litigation and he overworked himself. At some point he was kicked in the head by a horse, and this led to health issues. Still, he lived to his 90s.

'' Success has a thousand fathers, failure is an orphan ''. When it comes to hygienists it's the exact opposite. If they succeed, all the credit goes to their healthy / raw diet. If they ' fail ', or more correctly ', if their theoretically correct book diet does not sustain them, then we shift the goalposts and find a whole lot of reasons other than diet as to why it didn't work, but we are not willing to blame the diet.

Maybe the truth is that the diet was not sustainable for them, irrespective of whether it worked for others, or was book perfect. At some point we need to face the reality of the situation. Also, Fry did not believe in eating greens, just lots of fruit and some nuts, which was the accepted 100% perfect raw diet in that time, and that's why he probably was a closet junk food eater - lack of greens, rather than looking for excuses.

Many people have stress in their lives. If you are eating a healthy correct diet then you should have a clear bloodstream and your brain and thinking should be clearer.

According to reports I have read Shelton died in his late 80's and for the last 15 or so years was totally bedridden and unable to do anything or look after himself, so while he might have existed till his late 80's, he actually '' lived '' till his early 70's.

The above examples don't negate the importance of a healthier diet, but let's be real and not sweep failures under the carpet and pretend that they don't exist. Let's learn what we can from them. Very few of us live in a pristine pure environment. Many of us have been born with weak genetics and adrenal fatigue ( like me )and only limited capacity for eating or digesting and that's all we have. We don't expect everyone to be able to do the Hawaii Ironman, but some people are able to train and do it. Does that mean that because a limited number of people are able to complete a Hawaii Ironman everyone should be able to do it. The same with eating. Nowadays there are too many variables.

Unfortunately I wasn't aware of all of the above when i started out. I just believed what i read in books and accepted it. That was 41 years ago and it made things a big disaster for me, and I saw the same outcome for many other people. With the advent of the internet, I realised that many many more people had the same experiences that i had.

If the 100% raw works for you, then that is fantastic. It has worked for others. If it doesn't then face reality.

Just my 4 cents worth again.

BJ, I agree that raw doesn't work for everyone. It works for me, and I love it. Most people that I've met in my raw journey who were raw at one time are no longer doing all raw foods, for whatever reason. There are so many reason why it doesn't work for people, and many of these reasons I've had to face myself and find a way to heal that issue, whether it was moving away from a stressful life, dealing with my pain and emotions, finding a way to not live in my head, etc. Any time an obstacle came up, I had to ask myself, is this the diet or is there something I need to deal with and heal.

I don't believe the books. I try things for myself and see what works. I don't care if raw foods doesn't allow me to live a longer life. I simply like the way I feel on raw foods, and I like the health and healing I've attained from eating this way.

For me, raw foods wasn't an goal to be achieved. In fact, it was an early part of my healing, and my healing has continued long past the domain of raw foods, into the domain of the spiritual and healing my life.

<<<Fry did not believe in eating greens, just lots of fruit and some nuts>>>

In T.C. Fry’s "The Wellness Messenger" May 1995 issue on "What Does A Fruitarian Eat?" Fry says that he only eats 1600 calories a day in the summer and 2000 calories a day in the winter. His total intake for one week was: 44 pounds, 3 oz. and 14465 calories during a very cold April week in Michigan, temps. in the 30’s to 50’s. He ate 2 oz. of nuts a day - 18.42% and the only green leafy vegetables that he ate was 28 oz. of bok choy and 22 oz. of bibb lettuce in a one week period or ~7 oz. a day - 1.28%. He ate 14 different fruits - 80.3%. Imo, T.C. did not eat enough calories, especially his green leafy vegetables.

Prana, I admire what you have done. You and John are an inspiration to a lot us - but not a lot of us are able to achieve what you both have achieved. As i said above, what we are saying now is only a snapshot in time of where we are at this point in time. As long as we are healthy and happy now, that is what is important.

As for the future, let's reserve the right to change our minds - and our diets if necessary.

I agree with Panchito, that we are apes, so the question of evolving from apes is moot.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason hygienists like Shelton and Fry had
> diseases at the end of their lives is because they
> led stressful lives.

Plenty of people lead stressful lives and don't end up with chronic degenerative diseases though.

If a natural hygiene lifestyle and raw diet can't prevent the potential physiological changes that occur from chronic stress, then id argue what the point is in the first place focusing so intensely on having the purest raw diet etc, if it doesn't actually help to prevent these diseases or keep the body strong.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2013 10:48AM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a natural hygiene lifestyle and raw diet can't
> prevent the potential physiological changes that
> occur from chronic stress, then id argue what the
> point is in the first place focusing so intensely
> on having the purest raw diet etc, if it doesn't
> actually help to prevent these diseases or keep
> the body strong.


If eating "your X diet" or lifestyle does not prevent people from going to the doctor, then I would argue what the point is in the first place focusing on meat, etc. If it does not actually help prevent disease or keep the body strong

Thats my point entirely Panchito, if the raw diet makes such little difference to health that you still end up with chronic diseases then isn't all this effort and extremism rather pointless.

However i do believe a healthy diet is very important in not only the prevention of disease, but maintaining health. Other than that though i wouldn't get too obsessed and stressed about eating some "non-pure" foods, this might just save you from the mistakes of those past. Id argue that stressing about dietary purity is more destructive to health, than actually eating any of these "non-pure" foods.

It doesn't surprise me Herbert Shelton had chronically low levels of DHA, if that was the variety and types of foods he was eating regularly.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2013 01:24PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thats my point entirely Panchito, if the raw diet
> makes such little difference to health that you
> still end up with chronic diseases then isn't all
> this effort and extremism rather pointless.

A raw diet adresses many points of health but not all. It is only the diet part of the whole equation. Life is way more complex than just eating X foods and living Y years. Most hospital "clients" are not there because of a deficiency. But I would say many are there because of an excess of bad food. So in terms of diet and health, "more" could make you live less. Everything has an effect, even things we don't see or are aware off. The mind is not the final judge.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2013 01:35PM by Panchito.

powerlifer, in many of your posts, you often refer to adrenal fatigue as a cause of various diseases or unhealthful conditions. I see adrenal fatigue more as an effect, or a symptom, of enervation rather than a cause of other issues. When you say that Herbert Shelton's diet and lifestyle didn't protect him against chronic stress, I have to say you yourself have admitted that adrenal fatigue won't heal, even with the best superfoods/herbs, unless the sufferer has eliminated the stressors in their life. So if one can't heal adrenal fatigue without removing the stressors, why would Shelton's diet and lifestyle compensate for chronic stress? I don't get your statement.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer, in many of your posts, you often refer
> to adrenal fatigue as a cause of various diseases
> or unhealthful conditions. I see adrenal fatigue
> more as an effect, or a symptom, of enervation
> rather than a cause of other issues. When you say
> that Herbert Shelton's diet and lifestyle didn't
> protect him against chronic stress, I have to say
> you yourself have admitted that adrenal fatigue
> won't heal, even with the best superfoods/herbs,
> unless the sufferer has eliminated the stressors
> in their life. So if one can't heal adrenal
> fatigue without removing the stressors, why would
> Shelton's diet and lifestyle compensate for
> chronic stress? I don't get your statement.

Thats not entirely what i said, what i said was that it often takes more than cleaning up the diet or taking adaptogenic herbs alone to heal adrenal fatigue. Most often than not a total lifestyle change is needed to heal from advanced adrenal fatigue.

This brings me back to adaptogenic herbs once again, in that they help to increase the bodies resistance to stress and help to normalize the body/immune system during these stressful times. Maybe if natural hygienists such as Herbert Shelton weren't so anti-herb, his stressful lifestyle might have benefited from the use of adaptogen herbs.

Poor adrenal gland function is involved in a number of conditions from the role they play in allergies to there role in auto-immune disease. Most chronically ill individuals are also chronically stressed. So its always wise to assess adrenal gland, metabolic and even autonomic nervous system balance.

Again ill rephrase my question, what was the point in Herbert Sheltons extreme natural hygienist lifestyle if all it took was stress to cause him to be ill as you suggest. I thought these raw vegan diets/natural hygiene are meant to make you immune to developing chronic degenerative diseases?

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2013 07:34AM by powerlifer.

powerlifer, it seems to me that you fundamentally agree that adrenal fatigue will not heal unless a person removes their stressors that caused the adrenal fatigue in the first place, when the stressors were bad diet, stress/worry/anxiety, overwork, etc. You have said many times before that adaptogenic herbs might help, but without removal of the stressors, the adrenal fatigue won't heal.

As far as your concept of "raw vegan diets/natural hygiene are meant to make you immune to developing chronic degenerative diseases", this is either your misinterpretation of natural hygiene as written by Shelton, or the misinterpretation of the person who explained natural hygiene to you. In natural hygiene, the root cause of disease is enervation, which is using more life force energy than you have available to you, either by bad diet, mental and emotional imbalances, stressor on the body like not being warm enough, not getting enough rest or sleep, being under pressure that causes anxiety/worry/stress, breathing stale/toxic air, not getting enough sunshine, not getting clean water, not getting non-toxic foods, exposure to environmental poison, exposure to drugs or other toxins, getting a serious injury (say like being run over by a car or kicked in the head by a horse -- this happened in Shelton in 1945--

Quote

1945 Dr. Shelton is kicked in the mouth by his stallion, and this marks the beginning of his slowing down. His teeth are badly jarred, and he begins to lose them, one at a time, over the years. This impairs some of his nutritional well-being.

), etc, etc.

Just because a person has a set of great hygienic habits, if somehow stressors are in place that weaken the body, the body will get disease.

No one has ever said that a raw diet alone will prevent chronic disease. It helps, but if any of the condition of health are not met, disease will ensue.

This thread has turned into quite a debate.

Your points are all thought-provoking which I love!

Thanks to you all for giving me so much food for thought.

Powerlifer, I'm not for one of you guys and against another, however, I am sincerely curious about one point that John Rose made and what you feel about it. It is something that certainly grabs me and that is when he said that our bodies are not designed to eat animals. I've heard that argument from many circles and they prove this by comparing the length of our intestines to the different animals in the animal kingdom. Our most resemble that of the non-carnivores.

Do you agree?? or do you NOT agree??

I am not trying to challenge you or put you on the spot at all. I just sincerely am curious.

Mindy

Our past ancestors might have started vegetarian(maybe), but the introduction of cooking is likely what made us human and there is research to back up this theory also. Cooking and eating animal foods allows far more nutrient density to volume of food, which is likely concurrent with the increased brain size and development.

Back to Prana's points, again like i say thats not entirely what i said. Someone with mild to moderate adrenal fatigue may respond to adaptogenic herbs alone. Someone with advanced adrenal fatigue may have to delve a little deeper and remove every possible lifestyle, emotional and dietary stressors. Regardless of that, the whole point of adaptogenic herbs is to increase the bodies resistance to stress and stop you developing adrenal fatigue and other stress induced physiological problems in the first place.

Which is why i recommend anyone who is chronically stressed to check out adaptogenic herbs. They are non-toxic, pretty cheap and because of there non-specific normalizing action on the body, make them helpful for a number of health problems.

Enervating activities will only significantly deplete you without a balancing healthy lifestyle. So are you saying Herbert Shelton didn't follow what he preached or that his methods were simply ineffective for preventing disease ?

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]

When I created a list of our Needs, I realized that Stress or a Lack of Stress is NOT 1 of our Needs, but instead Stress comes whenever we don’t Satisfy 1 of our Needs, therefore, all Stress comes with Warning Signs. Indeed, Disease is part of our Feedback System. Whenever we don’t Satisfy 1 of our Needs, we get Feedback - some of which might take decades to Manifest, like Heart Disease or Cancer, but nonetheless, we had plenty of other Warning Signs that we were making Mistakes, like Colds, Flues, Chronic Tonsillitis and Adrenal Fatigue just to name a few.

With this understanding of Stress, let’s take a look at some of the comments in this thread, which simply show a complete lack of understanding of the Laws of Nature, i.e. the Law of Cause & Effect where you don’t Satisfy 1 of your Needs and you become Stressed and Dis-eased.

<<<Plenty of people lead stressful lives and don't end up with chronic degenerative diseases though.>>>

<<<Most chronically ill individuals are also chronically stressed.>>>

These 2 comments were made by the same person, which clearly shows a complete lack of Logic. In one breath, they say “most chronically ill individuals are also chronically stressed” and in another breath, they say, “plenty of people lead stressful lives and don't end up with chronic degenerative diseases though”!

Obviously, this person is in Denial and cannot handle the Truth.

As Schopenhauer once said, "Reason is usually the servant of desire."

"Man has an infinite capacity to rationalize his rapacity, especially when it comes to something he wants to eat." -Cleveland Amory

“Again, there may be some people in the future who...being under the influence of the taste of meat will string together in various ways many sophisticated arguments to defend meat eating.” -Buddha

Neils Bohr said that, "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." Many people say that you have to see it to believe it, but Wayne Dyer says, "You have to believe it to see it."

Now let’s take a look at 2 more comments made by the same poster.

<<<what was the point in Herbert Sheltons extreme natural hygienist lifestyle if all it took was stress to cause him to be ill as you suggest.>>>

Once again, you are trying to “rationalize your rapacity” because Prana did a great job of explaining this to you, but you can’t handle the Truth. Shelton did NOT get enough Sleep and you can die within days without Sleep. A Lack of Sleep is what made Dr. Norman Walker get ill and got him started on his Journey for a Better Life. Interestingly, almost all of the Natural Hygiene founders were Sickly children, which is why they understood that the Cause of Disease has to do with Violating the Laws of Nature.

<<<Enervating activities will only significantly deplete you without a balancing healthy lifestyle.>>>

Once again, you are full of contradictions because you don’t understand what Enervation means. One of the 1st Rules of Eating is to NEVER Eat when you are Stressed because you could be Eating the best of Foods and Not be able to Process those Foods because your Digestive Juices and your Elimination System have been shut down. If you were to open up your mind and investigate instead of condemn, you would understand that an Enervating Activity is an Unhealthy Lifestyle. If you are truly genuine and sincere about helping people, which I’m beginning to doubt, then you would want to know more about a System that understands what you do NOT understand and that’s what I call the Science of Healing, which has to do with the Laws of Nature or the Law of Cause & Effect where our Anatomy is clearly that of a PLANT EATER and NOT a MEAT EATER. Mindy asked you to address this and all you could do is say we might have been in the past and then, you changed the subject to “rationalize your rapacity” so you could continue to IGNORE the reality that we are NOT designed to Eat Dead Flesh!!!

The lame explanation that Cooking or Eating Animals is what made our brains grow bigger does NOT even fit the time line. Our brains doubled in size long before we even mastered Fire and is what actually allowed us to master Fire in the first place. Indeed, this False Belief is a classic example where our brains are ruled by our taste buds or “reason is usually the servant of desire.”

In reality, Cooking and Eating Animals represent the Fall of Mankind and is the Root to most of our Problems!!!

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 02:22PM by John Rose.

Whilst we may share some similar aspects in our anatomy to herbivores, vegans tend to overplay these similarities, the human body has several physiological features which clearly indicate a design for animal food consumption also. The fact we can't get nutrients such as Vitamin B12 reliably from non-animal food sources is another big giveaway.

While humans may have longer intestines than animal carnivores, they are not as long as herbivores. We do not possess multiple stomachs like many other herbivores do.

The human digestive system and pancreas create a range of digestive enzymes to deal with both plant and animal foods. Same goes for stomach acid levels which are much weaker in herbivores.

Either way in this day and age, we know from research that an all plant based diet is not nutritionally complete without being reliant on supplementation, and even then its questionable whether its a healthy diet to follow long term. B12 isn't the only nutrient of concern on an all plant based diet, especially one that is raw. Raw has more potential for problems than a cooked vegan diet, which although more nutritionally balanced is still pretty terrible and often far too reliant on grains, beans, legumes and Soy. All of these foods should be consumed in small amounts in my opinion.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 03:07PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thats my point entirely Panchito, if the raw diet
> makes such little difference to health that you
> still end up with chronic diseases then isn't all
> this effort and extremism rather pointless.
>
> However i do believe a healthy diet is very
> important in not only the prevention of disease,
> but maintaining health. Other than that though i
> wouldn't get too obsessed and stressed about
> eating some "non-pure" foods, this might just save
> you from the mistakes of those past. Id argue that
> stressing about dietary purity is more destructive
> to health, than actually eating any of these
> "non-pure" foods.
>
> It doesn't surprise me Herbert Shelton had
> chronically low levels of DHA, if that was the
> variety and types of foods he was eating
> regularly.
>
> [www.natuhealth.co.uk]

---
Once again, your definition of "extremism" is different from others. For some, it's not obessive or stressful to eat "pure" foods and in fact, they feel better for it, and it's a conscious decision on their part to feel their best, while they are alive, no matter how long that might be. I think that's why some of us on here try to phrase things in a way that say "I feel best." "for me" "in my opinion" because we can't state what would be best for another; if the person is open to trying it, then they can see for themselves . If they're not open to trying it, it's a moot point.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
raw
> has more potential for problems than a cooked
> vegan diet, which although more nutritionally
> balanced is still pretty terrible and often far
> too reliant on grains, beans, legumes and Soy. All
> of these foods should be consumed in small amounts
> in my opinion.
>
> [www.natuhealth.co.uk]



That's pretty vague. A cooked vegan diet is "terrible" but "more nutritionally balanced" than a raw one? Which cooked vegan diet? Which raw diet?

Also, just so you know, beans are a type of legume, so they would be included in that category. Legumes are beans and lentils. :p

I think that eating meat sends the wrong message because people will think they'll live longer. They will think that if I eat meat I am safe. Yet, cemeteries are full of the premature death of meat eaters. The argument about vegans has to do with cultural bias. The whole western culture is based on eating and consuming expensive meat, which is a product. People are born with the mentality in a mentality of I need meat. Then it is hard to break the cultural bonds. Scientist have a cultutral bias too. Anything that defends their way of living is given extra points of recognition. Recognition in modern society is everything for their soul. People will even get phDs just for the sweet taste of recognition, as they were born blank and need to prove they are somebody. This argument is the eternal clash of scientific biased culture against the real free science. The big brain of humans started well befor ethe homo erectus (fire), yet people don't like that.

Hmmm...so, do ALL herbivores have more than one stomach??

Curious.

Mindy

Where is the fourth column - omnivores? We aren't eating raw meat or whatever? We have knives and forks.We can eat mostly 100% raw and a small amount of fired food, and that experiment has produced many healthy long lived people.

Animals can't do experiments and check the results. What if eating 90% of raw and 10% of '' fired foods '' leads to a healthier longer life, does that mean it's wrong because animals can't cook or can't write down data and check the facts. Our bodies and our lifestyles have come so far from a natural state that to say we are exactly the same as animals is a meaningless statement.

I think that the invention of gunpowder and the petrochemical industry has been far worse for the planet than eating some fired food. No one here is advocating a 100% junk food / cooked food diet - just a bit of common sense.

and the fruitivorous column?

yeah, it is false that humans eat meat. They eat COOKED meat (transformed). Give a baby a pile of raw organs and watch the baby cry. Give the baby a pile of fruits and watch the baby smile. What I said many times is that humans can survive in many places. If they left their natural habitat then they available modified food (start eating other animals) by cooking them. We are primates originally from the tropics. We are cramming the planet and we eat anything we find by transforming it to make it eatable (cooking) and having more options. But that does not mean it is our type of food.

Panchito, you are talking about a ' fantasy ' reality. How many people coming on this board live in the tropics? How many of them have had ancestors who have been eating 100% raw fresh natural food from rich soils forever? People on this board are real people who have been eating cooked foods since their birth. Their ancestors have been eating cooked foods for thousands of years.Many people nowadays have weak genetics that have been passed on through the ages. We need to deal with the reality of the situation, not some fantasy people / apes from hundreds of thousands of years ago.

If it was all as simplistic as you make it out to be, then over the last 50 or so years there should be hundreds of thousands of long lived raw foodists running around the place - because so many people have honestly and sincerely tried.

Nowadays I equate completing the Hawaiin Ironman to a successful 100% raw foodist. A small proportion of the population are able to train and do the Hawaiin Ironman, but most people would never be able to complete it, but that doesn't mean you can't go swimming, running or cycling and get the benefits. The same with the raw diet and the current human race.

What makes me laugh the most about this theory that we were designed to eat raw, is that there wouldn't be anywhere near enough plant foods to sustain a raw vegan population by a long shot, this especially if before the introduction of agriculture. That completely squashes this theory for me, if we didn't have enough food to survive, we wouldn't be here today.

The raw vegan diet is a new age experimental diet trialled mostly by those living in western or advanced countries. It doesn't make sense in theory, you need supplements and even then the diet still isn't nutritionally complete or healthy. Try stopping your consumption of imported fruit from the tropics and see how long you last consuming just local and seasonal foods that are available to you.

Its easy when you can fly a kilogram worth of Californian dates half way around the globe everyday, to meet your caloric needs. Some B12 supplements. Then some Spanish blueberries to go along with your Egyptian watermelons.

Without mass exportation of these foods, how would you survive locally in whatever country you live ?.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 09:55AM by powerlifer.

Actually, all mental theories end up a mind fantasy but with a purpose. The purpose of the big_brain-cook-meat theory is to make the cooked meat eating population feel good because it says that the size of the brain depends on eating more cooked food or fired meat. It is not so hard to understand that the size of todays population is due to cooking, Because cooking transforms not eatable food to eatable, thus increasing the amount and options of food. We could live on the desert eating rats, snakes, cactus, etc, but that does not mean that we were designed for that. All people have to do to wake up is to take a look and compare us to our closest relatives. But they don't like what they see, so they create a New theory to explain with a twisted and reasoned purpose why we need millions of tons of dead animals, to later cook then, and then say thats because we are carnivors. If we are really raw meat eaters, we would bite off the head of a mouse like biting a banana.


My favorite raw foodist picture





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 01:01PM by Panchito.