So, I've heard that honey is considered a non-vegan food. Why? Does anyone know?

I've also heard that honey is crazy good for you. The "perfect" food.

??

What do you know/believe?

Mindy

Well, it's the product of an insect so that by itself would make it non-vegan.

Since we are on that topic, does anyone think honey heated to 150 degrees would destroy the enzymes totally? I mean, I guess the answer must be yes but still...

Some of vegan theories are non sense. There so many living micro organisms even in the air we breathe

The bees gather nectar from flowers and process it to create honey. Honey is the concentrated nectar from the fowers of plants, totally vegan.

By the logic of the vegan pontificators that have declared honey an animal product because it was handled by an animal, all foods handled by an animal would have to be concidered an animal product. By this logic it would mean that all food raised by a farmer (the human animal), shipped by human animals, and distributed by human animals or processed in any way by the human animal would then have to be concidered an animal food. Total nonsense as RP pointed out.

And the idea that the bee keeper is stealing the bee's honey is nonsense as well. The bee keeper pays the bees by building them a hive and trucking them to where the flowers are. It is not stealing.

brome Wrote:
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> The bees gather nectar from flowers and process it
> to create honey.


"Process" is the operative word that makes honey Non-Vegan.

[science-at-home.org]

"When a bee is drinking nectar it goes into a special stomach called the honey sac or honey stomach. When she goes back to the hive she gives the nectar to another bee who keeps it in her mouth. There are things in her mouth called enzymes that start breaking it down, just like your saliva breaks down food like yoghurt in your mouth. Then they spread it out into the honeycombs and fan it with their wings to make it dry out. Once lots of the water is gone and it’s thick, it is honey."


This is where the honey stomach is located -





Sort of like how milk is Non-Vegan - the cow eats grass and it goes into the stomach and comes out the udders as milk.

The real substance should not be whether it is an animal product or not but whether the animal involved is treated fairly and if it is a good food or not. The bees are treated fairly. And honey is an excellent food for the vegan.

Symbiotic relationships are where both organisms benefit from the an interchange between them. Like the beneficial micro organisms in the digestive tract. They benefit from the food one eats and in return they keep things clean and aid in digestion. The bee keeper and the bee are in such a relationship. The bees benefit greatly from the efforts of the bee keeper. And the bee keeper provides pollination to farms and gets some honey.

What is of concern is the negative impact on the 1000's of species of native bees. A total focus on the non-native European honeybee puts many native bee populations in peril.

ps The situation with milk is totally different from honey. The grass nutrients enter the cow's blood stream and are totally transformed into something entirely new. In the bee, the nectar does not enter the bee's blood. The honey is just concentrated nectar, a relatively modest processing from the original nectar.

As far as the ethics of milk go, as long as the animal was treated well it is perfectly ethical. It just may not be a good nutritional choice. Although it can be good for babies if the mother's milk is unavailable. (esp. goat milk). And clabbered milk (like buttermilk) can be good for adults at times although there can be bad reactions to it (use cautiously).

And the same goes for other animal products as well. As long as the animals were fairly treated it's ok.

The vegan community is no different from any other. It has plenty of bullies. The bee issue has been a common excuse for those bullies to treat human beings less than humanely. It was either a year or two ago when I was absolutely eviscerated on this forum by people who have zero understanding of the relationship between people and bees. They think that if they, human beings, would be miserable as a bee with a beekeeper, that automatically means that bees will be miserable too. Their simplistic and arrogant thinking says that human psychology applies to all living beings. These are the same people who 100% try to raise dogs as if they're people living on an egalitarian commune.

I believe it is vegan, I don't care what anyone else thinks lol. Is it good for us? I have heard Brian Clement talk about it and you know what he says about sugar. I believe he said that a little but from time to time is fine. Is it good for the bee's? Well I think most people have heard about the crisis with the bee's? So man's intervention clearly has not been good for the bees in an indirect way. So as long as you don't mind eating insect vomit then enjoy lol.

rzman10001 Wrote:
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> I believe it is vegan, I don't care what anyone
> else thinks lol. Is it good for us? I have heard
> Brian Clement talk about it and you know what he
> says about sugar. I believe he said that a little
> but from time to time is fine. Is it good for the
> bee's? Well I think most people have heard about
> the crisis with the bee's? So man's intervention
> clearly has not been good for the bees in an
> indirect way. So as long as you don't mind eating
> insect vomit then enjoy lol.


I don't think you really understand the definition of 'vegan' (no offense ). Goat's milk is not vegan, even if you kiss the goat on the lips every morning and treat it like gold. Vegan means not from an animal--it does not mean cruelty-free animal products.

banana who Wrote:
> Vegan means not from an animal.

Yup, that's the definition. So if people want to use honey, or wool or silk or leather or milk or eggs or bugs of whatever, they can go right ahead so long as they don't call it vegan. The arguement is "What is vegan" and those things are Not.
It's just a label though, I never wear those myself. Not very comfy .

Not to go off on a tangent (although I love to do that) but...I never understood why wool would be a no-no. I realize that some vegans might feel that any use of an animal is automatically exploitation but beyond that aspect, would the sheep be using that wool if we didn't shear it off?

The wooly animals shed their heavy winter coats come spring. If one has friendly realations with those animals, sheep, goats, alpacas, musk oxen, etc. they wouldn't mind at all if one took what they were shedding anyway.

How about a farm that is powered with horse, ox, or water buffalo? All the food produced by that farm is very much due to the hard work of these draft animals. Would all this food then be taboo under vegan dogma?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2013 11:51PM by brome.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rzman10001 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I believe it is vegan, I don't care what anyone
> > else thinks lol. Is it good for us? I have
> heard
> > Brian Clement talk about it and you know what
> he
> > says about sugar. I believe he said that a
> little
> > but from time to time is fine. Is it good for
> the
> > bee's? Well I think most people have heard
> about
> > the crisis with the bee's? So man's
> intervention
> > clearly has not been good for the bees in an
> > indirect way. So as long as you don't mind
> eating
> > insect vomit then enjoy lol.
>
>
> I don't think you really understand the definition
> of 'vegan' (no offense ). Goat's milk is not
> vegan, even if you kiss the goat on the lips every
> morning and treat it like gold. Vegan means not
> from an animal--it does not mean cruelty-free
> animal products.


No offense but this was brought up in one of the other posts, I was just commenting on this. Clearly it is not vegan from "The definition" If everyone adhered to the real definition of Veganism there would be few out there. I agree with not getting caught up in labels. Most people are just trying to the best they can. I think it should be in a different class of food stuff but it is what it is. So call me a vegetarian? I wont be offended, laughs, jokes. I am still going to kiss my goat every day though, is that okay? jokes.

mindy66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, I've heard that honey is considered a
> non-vegan food. Why? Does anyone know?
>
> I've also heard that honey is crazy good for you.
> The "perfect" food.
>
> ??
>
> What do you know/believe?


I don't know where you read "The Perfect Food" but it is far from that even from my non proffessional point of view. Just try living on it for a while lol. It does not even have fat in it? that is not a perfect food. It's the perfect food for bee's, thats what it is! laughs, joking.

Honey is not a food according to the Natural Hygiene definition

look at it from a broader perspective

eating milk isn't vegan

doesn't KILL the cow

maybe the cow was treated nicely (like bees)

but still milk is a byproduct of the dairy industry which is not cow freindely

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

rzman10001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Goat's milk is not
> > vegan, even if you kiss the goat on the lips
> every
> > morning

oh thank you rzman10001 for giving me a very good laugh this morning!!!

Just to go off on another tangent (apologies), I often wonder whether water kefir and kombucha should be considered vegan.. I mean, they're not animals, or insects, but they still feel very much 'alive' to me... I feel a bit guilty when I have surplus and have to throw them on the compost heap

In reference to the goat milk, some people drink milki because of calcium (white color) but that may cause the opposite effect of what they are looking for. See the China Study. Countries that don't drink milk have stronger bones than countries that drink milk. It has to do with acidity draining the calcium out of the bones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2013 09:14AM by Panchito.

lisa m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rzman10001 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Goat's milk is not
> > > vegan, even if you kiss the goat on the lips
> > every
> > > morning
>
> oh thank you rzman10001 for giving me a very good
> laugh this morning!!!
>
> Just to go off on another tangent (apologies), I
> often wonder whether water kefir and kombucha
> should be considered vegan.. I mean, they're not
> animals, or insects, but they still feel very much
> 'alive' to me... I feel a bit guilty when I have
> surplus and have to throw them on the compost heap
>


That was my brilliant humor, Lisa As for feeling guilt over spilled kombucha, if you are being serious, that sounds pretty extreme. I think a Jain would even do a doubletake! LOL...

haha, oh sorry Banana who! all this quoting has me confused! no, I really am serious about the kombucha, in fact even a company called 'Happy Kombucha' who sells the cultures says to treat them with respect as they are living organisms (although, as they are selling them for our use, what does that make them.. slave traders..? lol)

Lisa, that is a good one!

Panchito, we have to distinguish between cow and goat secretions. Supposedly goat's milk is much lower in protein (casein, too) so I assume that it is also less acidic. And if it was RAW, all the less acidic. In any case, I cannot believe that a person who ate a plant-based diet with lots of RAW produce would have an acidic system if they also consumed a moderate amount of goat's milk product. Getting too obsessed with diet seems like a colossal waste of time, not to mention misguided.

I've heard that the milk products (cheese) are the killers. As for milk, It is white but has tons of other animal hormones, blood, etc. So it is not like pure calcium what I would drink. What ever you eat is what you become. People on SAD diets got the fat that was made on other animals and so many other animal juices. For example, some fatty acids are made in the liver of an animal. Then that becomes the belly fat of a human. It could be like extracting the fluids of one animal and injecting them on the body. Another thing is bacteria. Animal fat 'brews' a type of bacteria while vegetables brew others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2013 04:25PM by Panchito.

another question - could milk kefir be considered vegan? I ask this because when you think about it, by the time it's been processed through the bacteria, it's actually a different substance. It's a fermented culture. It's kefir, not milk. For example, when I drink water kefir, even though it's made with sugar, it doesn't mean I'm eating sugar; it's been chemically altered by the fermentation process,

And you might say milk kefir is not vegan because it required animal products in order to be produced - but couldn't you also say that about plants? They're fertilised with animal by-products such as blood and bone, manure etc.

I'm not saying this to be contentious, truly, these are just the questions that perplex me when I really start to think about it all.

Lisa, a vegan gardener would NOT use blood and bones (yuck!) for their plot. I am not vegan currently and I don't do it either. It's pretty straight-foward--if it has a face, it's not vegan. The thing is that some items are not vegan that would surprise some people. I once saw a PETA handbook that said rubber tires had by-products. So you have to pick your battles.

that's my point though banana who. how can you be sure of growing methods when you buy your fruit and veg? they look at me funny in restaurants already... I can imagine the looks if I start asking what type of fertiliser was used on my salad... lol

The short answer is that vegan by definition is does include ingestion of animal products. Honey is an animal product. I do not know how more simple you could make it. Honey is a popular divertion from veganism. Many bee-guns are still kindred spirits. Victoria Moran, Raw Judita, John Kohler. But eating an animal product precludes one from being a vegan, at least during the period one eats it. Most "vegans" have eaten animal products at some point in their lives.

I have seen a lot of vegans wearing shoes made from animal products. It get into the blood.

While concern for the bees is laudable it is but a very tiny part of the problem. One's giant animal annihilating footprint on the Earth is the major concern.

Your house - every plant and animal that had lived there is dead and gone, and they don't even have the potential for repopulating the area. Worse than hunters, the animals they kill can repopulate the intact habitat.

The same goes for everything that supports your life in this modern society; the roads, the stores, the factories, the mines, the businesses, and even the farms have obliterated most if not all of the plants and animals; with no potential of returning.

lisa m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> another question - could milk kefir be considered
> vegan? I ask this because when you think about
> it, by the time it's been processed through the
> bacteria, it's actually a different substance.
> It's a fermented culture. It's kefir, not milk.
> For example, when I drink water kefir, even though
> it's made with sugar, it doesn't mean I'm eating
> sugar; it's been chemically altered by the
> fermentation process,
>
> And you might say milk kefir is not vegan because
> it required animal products in order to be
> produced - but couldn't you also say that about
> plants? They're fertilised with animal
> by-products such as blood and bone, manure etc.
>
> I'm not saying this to be contentious, truly,
> these are just the questions that perplex me when
> I really start to think about it all.


Clearly milk kefir will never be vegan because it comes from an animal. You should think of it as an ethical rule. If you are taking it from an animal it's not vegan. The animal is using this for something, it's not for you to use. They don't make milk for humans lol, they make it for their young. Bees don't make honey for humans lol.

Another thing that I learned from Brian Clement. Commercial milk is not only a bad source of calcium, but it also calcifies the intestines. This prevents neutrients from being absorbed properly. In autopsies done on 12yr old boys showed that a high percentage of thier GI tracts were calcified. It's been a lot of years so I can't remember the percentage but it was high!

rzman10001, what I am saying is that milk kefir comes indirectly from an animal. The finished product is actually the result of bacterial action. But don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to 'prove'or justify anything, I'm just playing about with the semantics of it all.

Could you answer me this then: is water kefir vegan? It is made by bacteria..they are living creatures.. one could argue that they don't 'make' it for me, just as the bees don't make honey for humans. Do bacteria count in vegan ethics?