There is not much science l have found on fermenting and reducing goitrogens, and many articles say fermenting makes it worse where-as others say it "disables goitrogenic isoflavones" but don't provide respectable references to be able to take them seriously such as this article:
[www.rebootwithjoe.com]

But...l think l have stumbled onto some good news, and that is...Goitrogens could be reduced by milling foods, and adding iodine rich foods to the diet appears to overcome the iodine blocked by Goitrogens.

Milling reduces the goitrogenic potential of cassava
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Endemic Goiter in Vietnam
"the data suggest that the goitrogenic effect of cassava is easily overcome by supplementary iodine, even when it is ingested irregularly"
[jcem.endojournals.org]

And below is the link which gave me the clue about how to handle Goitrogens.

The need for adequate processing to reduce the antinutritional
factors in plants used as human foods and
animal feeds: A review
K. O. Soetan1* and O. E. Oyewole2
"Secondly, improper processing of plant food like beans
and pulses may expose humans and animals to high
concentrations of these toxic factors. An example is the
production of soymilk and its use as an alternative to
cow’s milk in infant formula. It is reported that soymilk, if
not properly processed and supplemented with Iodine,
causes goitre in infants (Hydowitz, 1960)".

[www.academicjournals.org]


See, Goitrogens might not be so scarey afterall. It seems that intaking high iodine foods to counteract the Goitrogens is of great help, and grinding various foods may also help.

Does blending help? Dunno. Could well be various we can do, but at least this is a good start. Still lots of research in this area to do. l want to devote my time to studying food processing (sprouting, fermenting, grinding etc) so we can learn how to increase maximum bioavailability of food nutrients via reducing anti nutrients.

We were given the intelligance to use simple food processing measures to tame an un-natural food supply, so why not use it to our advantage. Using over simplified arguments that "it isn't natural" simply doesn't cut it because they are airy fairy arguments. Is eating high levels of anti nutrients natural? Is eating poorly digested food natural? Is eating post harvested food natural? Is eating unripe fruit natural? It's time to get real folks.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2013 02:07AM by The Sproutarian Man.

More good news.

Goitrogenic content of Indian cyanogenic plant foods & their in vitro
anti-thyroidal activity
Amar K Chandra, Sanjukta Mukhopadhyay, Dishari Lahari & Smritiratan Tripathy
[icmr.nic.in]

Using extra iodine via sea vegetables will have it's best effect on overcoming goitrogens in a raw diet. Now, the extra iodine will not ovrecome the effect of goitrogens completely, but it will make the Goitrogen factor insignificant.

But whatever you do, do NOT eat bamboo shoots LOL.

Some quotes from the above study (below)

"The potent anti-thyroidal effect of cyanogenic foods
is known to be enhanced by iodine deficiency26. The
goitrogenic action of thiocyanate or thiocyanate like
compounds can be overcome by iodide
administration. In our study addition of excess iodide
showed different degrees of reversing effect against in
vitro TPO inhibition. Reversing effect was encouraging
for raw extracts of the plants except for bamboo shoot
because of its higher concentration of goitrogenic
constituents. Recovery was less for both boiled and
cooked extracts because of conversion of cyanogenic
constituents into thiocyanate completely or the
cyanogenic glucosides and glucosinolates present in the
plants were converted into more active anti-thyroid
substances and their action was not antagonized by
excess iodide. Supplementation of iodide may reduce the anti-thyroid
activity but cannot neutralise it.

Relative anti-thyroid potency of raw extract of
bamboo shoot was found to be maximum followed by
cassava, mustard, cauliflower, radish, turnip and cabbage
as studied by their respective IC50 and PTU equivalence"

Conclusion of the study above:

"In conclusion, the results showed that the cyanogenic
plants had in vitro anti-thyroidal activity. Boiled extracts
showed highest anti-TPO potency followed by cooked
and raw extracts. Excess iodide though reversed the
anti-TPO activity of the plant foods to a certain extent
but could not neutralise it".

www.thesproutarian.com

TSM

best news i've heard all week
thanks!

well, i love kelp
so i guess i'll keep consuming it
seaweed... a girl's best friend!

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Cooking for as little as 10 minutes inactivates
> the majority of the goitrogens in these vegetables


Where is the science which supports that statement? In my research l have not come across any any science which supports that claim.

I also checked the blog and found no references to anything. I usually avoid health blogs for this very reason....very few have any credibility.

From what l have read in science journals, cooking only partially destroys Goitrogens. If l am wrong, plesase correct me and show me a credible link.

I will see if i can find the studies to post up later. Here is an excerpt from WH Foods, on cooking lowering goitrogens. In the case of the cruciferous vegetables, you get significantly more nutrient bio-availibility once cooked anyway due to the softening/breaking down of the fibers.

One study if i remember showed that boiling cruciferous vegetables reduced the majority of the goitrogens.

Impact of Cooking on Isoflavones and Isothiocyanates

Although research studies are limited in this area, cooking does appear to help inactivate both isoflavones (commonly found in soy foods) and isothiocyanates (commonly found in cruciferous vegetables). These compounds appear to be heat-sensitive, and cooking appears to lower their availability. In the case of isothiocyanates in cruciferous vegetables like broccoli, as much as one third of this goitrogenic substance may be deactivated when broccoli is boiled in water.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2013 08:37AM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
In the case of the
> cruciferous vegetables, you get significantly more
> nutrient bio-availibility once cooked anyway

No argument there at all. Agreed. But l imagine it is also because of destruction of other anti nutritional factors also. But with the breaking down of fiber and anti nutrients via cooking does come a price to pay. BUT...that being said...raw vegans certainly make their lives difficult by eating so much raw food.



>
> One study if i remember showed that boiling
> cruciferous vegetables reduced the majority of the
> goitrogens.
l look forward to seeing that if you can find it. All we want to do is get to the truth as best we can.

I know that blending cruciferous vegetables only made the goitrogens more bioavailable, and it wasn't until I started supplementing with iodine--while still drinking green juices--that my hampered thyroid recovered.


Side note: Hiya, powerlifer! : )

Why iodine?

seawees is delicious

dulse is my favorite

i do a kelp powder
get it in bulk
don't think its my imagination
that i feel better when i do kelp
then again
i usually feel very good
but kelp makes me feel better

i still like dulse better
tastes good
less mucilaginous
but less iodine than kelp

i like purple
anthocyanin is good

its a pretty color too
well more like maroon

Can't we just rely on the fermentation in the gut for this? I think it is more important to make sure our digestion is strong to eat the right foods and then rely on the gut fermenting these nutrients. Unfortunately most of us are far from having strong digestion and have evolved into people that can't even survive on a raw food diet because of so much junk for so many years and generations. You can soak your nuts and seeds to get these nutrients. You can't get a much better whole food as a nut or a seed. If we also take in wheatgrass juice or and algae product we CAN get some of this also. I agree it is difficult though for everyone to utilize all these different sources.

Rzman ... the reality is that for a lot of people the digestive abilities that they are born with is all they have and will ever have. We have people who are born with good genetics who can run ultra marathons, do the remarkable Hawaiin Ironman , and still others who can swim Florida to Cuba and back, but other people irrespective of how much they trained - their bodies just wouldn't be able to do it. The same with eating and digestion. This is one of the big flaws of raw foodism, and one of the reasons so many genuine people have failed. They weren't warned of their physical and digestive limited capacities.

The fact that they can't survive on a 100% raw diet doesn't mean they can't eat healthy or be healthy. It's just that the handful of people with great genetics, a great body and fantastic digestive capabilities can't seem to understand that for some people it's just not an option. They base everything on their own bodies - not very scientific, or accurate.

A parallel is the situation with endomorphs, ectomorphs and mesomorphs. Some people just don't have the body type to lift heavy weights irrespective of how hard they train. The same with many people's internal digestive capabilities.

And if you add their bodies capacities to the fact that a lot of their DNA has been built on cooked food, as well as needing smaller amounts because of cooked foods then they are being offered a false hope.

I now believe that for many people 100% raw diets, or even 100% strict diets is contra indicated.You can still be healthy, happy and live a long life by following a high percentage of raw foods, as opposed to failing and being miserable by trying to achieve something your body is not capable of.

I agree but a person can work toward this. It appears you believe that just because they have failed they cannot do it. It might take years of going slow and rebuilding the system. It's not easy and really it takes a lot of passion and self awareness to pull off. It's clearly not for most people but I would not say that it can't be done. Most people that try this type of diet almost always don't get how to pull it off. Also people don't need to be 100% unless they are VERY sick.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The easiest way to deal with the goitrogen
> containing greens such as the brassica/cruciferous
> vegetables is simply by lightly cooking them. Most
> of the foods which are strong goitrogens are not
> greatly digestible raw anyway such as broccoli and
> the other cruciferous vegetables, spinach etc.
>
> Cooking for as little as 10 minutes inactivates
> the majority of the goitrogens in these vegetables


It looks like you are right on this, legumes need 30 minutes to largely destroy them so maybe softer plants like spoinach take less. Still more research is needed on this topic, but here are some scientists which back up your point. Very very interesting.

Effect of Duration of Cooking of Lablab purpureus Beans on the Performance Organ Weight and Haematological Parameters of Shika-brown Pullet Chicks

F.O. Abeke, S.O. Ogundipe , S. Oladele , A.A. Sekoni , I.I. Dafwang , I.A. Adeyinka , O.O. Oni and A. Abeke
[scialert.net]

There are other science journals which back this up too.

www.thesproutarian.com

But when we cook them, they are no longer raw.
How can we inactivate the goitrogens without cooking?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2013 02:47AM by CommonSenseRaw.

CommonSenseRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But when we cook them, they are no longer raw.

True.

> How can we inactivate the goitrogens without
> cooking?

We can't inactivate them in raw, but the good news is that they don't have to be a problem if we have sea vegetables (science clearly confirms this).

I forgot to say, one of the best ways to get bio-available iodine into the diet is with Kelp. Kelp is an excellent all round mineral/trace element supplement but in particular is a rich source of iodine. Kelp also contains a type of fiber called alginates which bind to toxic heavy metals.

Regardless of goitrogens, there are many other dietary and enviromental iodine antagonists such as bromine, chlorine and fluorides. Iodine deficiency is still common across a wide spectrum of diets according to studies.

Dr Wilson only recommends a few brands such as Natures Way, Now Foods and Frontier herbs if you prefer the granules. He recommends around 3-6 capsules daily for most individuals starting a nutritional balancing program.

I still feel kelp is better than iodoral or lugols because it is a natural and balanced wholefood.

I take the Natures Way Kelp Capsules, they are cheap and high quality.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2013 12:59PM by powerlifter.

Another thing we need to be aware of are the Goitrogens in water supplies, and there is clear evidence that this also leads to goiter. This can be a problem if one drinks straight from the public water supply because various because -

"evidence of the presence of these compounds (goittrogens) in foodstuffs and drinking water is discussed. Bacterial contamination of water supplies also appears to be important in the development of goiter. Microorganisms appear to intervene in the biosynthesis and degradation of organic goitrogenic pollutants or may induce thyroid growth-promoting activity in the host, or both"

Goitrogens in food and water

Gaitan E
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

And this can be a real problem because the above research is -

"consistent with previous findings indicating that organic antithyroid compounds contaminate water supplies in areas where goiter persists despite adequate iodine supplementation".

In vitro measurement of antithyroid compounds and environmental goitrogens

Gaitan E, Cooksey RC, Matthews D, Presson R
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


So what do we do if iodine supplementation doesn't work because of water contamination, are we doomed? NO! Just filter the water to see if we can remove these contaminants, and if that doesn't work (filtering water doesn't always remove all bacterial contaminants and can be a breading ground for such organisms) then it is best to try R.O water, and if that doesn't work (R.O doesn't always remove all bacteria and it can muliply bacteria in storage containers) then we go straight to distilled water.

See, the negative effects of goitrogens are easily controlled if one is aware of the problems and the solutions.

And lets not think this is a small problem. More than
2 billion people in the world live in iodine-deficient environments.

Plant Breeding: A New Tool for Fighting Micronutrient Malnutrition

Howarth E. Bouis
[jn.nutrition.org]

And when raw foodist's stubbonly refuse to cooked their dinner and eat brassica/cruciferous vegetables they greatly open themselves up to being much further exposed to goiter because of the goitrogens. So not only do we live in a world in which much of the soil is deficient, we also eat many raw foods high in goitrogens, and we also have the water supply to content with. BUT...we can fix the problems and come out winners imo, all the solutions are there.

I now think this topic has been covered properly - all the problems have been discussed with good evidence, and all the solutions have been provided with good evidence and some common sense.

www.thesproutarian.com

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also and probably the baby greens and sprouts have
> less goitrogens I would think.

No, quite the opposite. First of all, lets start off with what goitrogens are. Goitrogens are phytochemicals which are cyanogenic glucosides, glucosinolates (thioglucosides) and thiocyanates, and there are many different phytochemicals in these groups.

Sprouting will dramatically increase some of these goitrogens such as glucosinolates, but as the brassica plants reach maturity those phyto chemicals will sharply reduce. Below are two such studies to prove this:

A time-course study of the effect of sulphur on glucosinolates in oilseed rape (Brassica napus) from the vegetative stage to maturity

Elaine J Booth, Kerr C Walker, D Wynne Griffiths
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]

and

Glucosinolate changes in developing pods of single and double low varieties of autumn-sown oilseed rape (B. napus)

P E. BILSBORROW*, E. J. EVANS, F. MURRAY, F. J. ZHAO
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]

The goitrogens will be much further discussed and fully referenced on my website in the greatest of detail within the next couple of days. It will be the most detailed discussion of goitrogens on the internet, but it will be written in user friendly form.

Another issue not well discussed online is the effects of fermentation on goitrogens. Fermentation can both dramatically reduce various goitrogens, but it can also looks like it can increase them. Below are references which indicate this is the case.

First there are two studies proving that fermentation can reduce various goitrogens quite significantly.

Reduction of cyanide levels in cassava during sequential sundrying and solid state fermentation

R. Zvauya and M. I. Muzondo
[informahealthcare.com]

and

Comparative Study of Chemical Properties of Soibum- A Traditional Fermented Bamboo Shoot Product and Its Biological Investigation

S. Anil Singh, H. Dayanidhi Singh, Robbarts Nongmaithem, T.C. Bora, and N. Rajmuhon Singh
[www.ijbbb.org]

But then there are cases of where fermentation increases goitrogens

Traditional fermentation increases goitrogenic activity in pearl millet

Elnour A, Liedén S, Bourdoux P, Eltom M, Khalid SA, Hambraeus L
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


So there we have it. In sum:

* fermentation can greatly reduce various goitrogens, but not always.
* sprouting increases goitrogens


Best to drink clean water, supplement with iodine/eat sea vegetables if you eat lots of gotroigenic foods, or cook the foods if you really want to. Milling can reduce goitrogens but this also destroys various minerals (ref will be provided on my site to prove this).

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2013 04:31AM by The Sproutarian Man.

YES, great thread. I eat kelp everyday just to get my minerals. Thank you all for posting! Feeling good.