Time for people to wake up. Those stimulating foods probably makes one overeat on fats etc, and there lies a major problem amongst many other problems.

Even if we were hunter and gathers and cavemen, does it mean this was an optimal position to be in and eat these foods? Just because the `so called cavemen' ate like this and survived doesn't mean the diet could have been done better. What funny old thinking these folks have, and funny old thinking make funny old bodies far from ideal. You don't see the long lived people looking like that.

Let's not carry it so far. Raw food helps but we cannot say that eating cooked food make us dead walking. The greatest minds our earth has known were not raw foodists. Einstein, Mozart, Isaac Newton, Picasso....

I've long held the same belief as The Storm. I don't believe we have evolved from apes.I believe that at some point in the distant past a more technically advanced civilisation visited Earth and that they interbred their lower forms of life with our apes and let them loose on the planet, and that's us now. Otherwise, how come no apes have evolved - or are evolving into human beings at this very moment.

CommonSenseRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's not carry it so far. Raw food helps but we
> cannot say that eating cooked food make us dead
> walking.

True. It is the SAD diet which is making people the walking dead after a short time. People are a walking dead - the enthusiam, the energy radiance, the emotions = all dulled down. People are living far from their potential, just look in those aweful supermarkets...the lifelessness and people afraid to talk to other people. People have lost the connection and it's people all for themselves. The life is not in many of their eyes.

Nothing bad about some cooked food, just keep it mainly healthy and eat high raw at a minimum.

I am sure you did accomplish a lot in your life before getting into raw food. Many of us did. We went to school, got degrees, got married, raised family. We were all alive making these great accomplishments.

I am reading a book about cells communication ( [www.amazon.com] ). It says that living cells are concious on their own. Even simple proteins can make decisions by themselves. But if you eat cooked proteins, they lose their shape. Their shape is very critical for their function and purpose. When proteins are made they pass through tight shape quality assurance because they could kill the cell if not made right. Long story short, there is lots of stuff we don't know about food. Small changes matter long term.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2013 03:05PM by Panchito.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am reading a book about cells communication (
> [www.amazon.com]-
> into/dp/155643913X/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1/179-9581369-
> 1217563 ). It says that living cells are concious
> on their own. Even simple proteins can make
> decisions by themselves. But if you eat cooked
> proteins, they lose their shape. Their shape is
> very critical for their function and purpose. When
> proteins are made they pass through tight shape
> quality assurance because they could kill the cell
> if not made right. Long story short, there is lots
> of stuff we don't know about food. Small changes
> matter long term.

Amazing stuff, and certainly not surprising at all.

I used to be high calories SAD once with high protein foods, but could never build muscle and never had much muscle at all. But a low calorie raw high amino acid plant diet put muscle in places l never had before with little exercise.

l put a girl on a low calorie 100% raw sprout diet and she is building muscle too.

Going to start a thread on this later because it is very interesting and runs contrary to what these `so called' raw experts are telling us about calories.

Hippocrates Health Institute and Kulvinskas say the same, and lets not forget the long lived people of Hunza who consumed an average of 1,300 calories a day according to scientists.

We know so little about food and the body.

www.thesproutarian.com

cells have hundred and even thousands of independent pieces that somehow know what to do. The external membrane has to make thousands of decisions everyday. Proteins are intelligent by themselves without a brain. The know how to move around and stuff (by stretching). a virus is a protein and there are studies where they figure out ways to get in cells (intelligence) and navigate to the nucleous and reproduce there by injecting their own DNA, sneaky. The membrane has many different channels like for calcium, proteins, etc. It is huge in terms of the complexity of cell and how little they are.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cells have hundred and even thousands of
> independent pieces that somehow know what to do.
> The external membrane has to make thousands of
> decisions everyday. Proteins are intelligent by
> themselves without a brain. The know how to move
> around and stuff (by stretching). a virus is a
> protein and there are studies where they figure
> out ways to get in cells (intelligence) and
> navigate to the nucleous and reproduce there by
> injecting their own DNA, sneaky. The membrane has
> many different channels like for calcium,
> proteins, etc. It is huge in terms of the
> complexity of cell and how little they are.

Thanks for that, and l will buy the book soon.

Yes, cells can divide by themselves and reproduce, and yet there is no evidence of cells and atoms needing food to do this. They are indeed their own intelligence. Been thinking alot about this subject recently. The works of Hilton Hotema talk about these subjects too, his book `long life in florida' has an excellent basic discussion of this.

Kulvinskas touches on cooked v's raw proteins in this excellent video too. He fires right up at about 30 mins into the video. Best speaker ever in the raw movement as far as l am concerned.

Viktoras Kulvinskas says: Wake up
[www.youtube.com]

www.thesproutarian.com

Kulvinskas looked much older than his years. Why does he look so old?

He is 75, has clear skin, strong and is at peace.

He probably would have looked much better if he didn't sabotage himself so much in the first half of his life. He was a chronic binge eater bulemic, drank too much alcohol, drank coffee all day, smoked far too much, went from raw to cooked vegetarian binges regularly. He was also born autistic and had numerous mental health issues including schizophrenia. Those type of things wouldn't have helped him look amazing. He has come out of it a champion.

He was also kept down three years at school, but become brilliant after the raw diet and did well at school in later years and had highly esteamed jobs.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2013 05:26AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Thoughts on oil, there are some definite negatives to oils in general compared to high fat whole foods like olives, avocadoes, nuts and seeds. The oils have no fiber and are more calorically dense. But is abstenence better than moderation or a low limit? The dose makes the poison, right? What is the trade off? What are the pros of oils to help assess it in context instead of just looking at the cons.

The negatives of oils compared with whole food plant based high fat sources have been pretty well covered:

- no fiber
- less nutritive benefits (e.g. flax oil has no lignans unlike flax seed)
- more calorically dense, easy to overeat if not paying attention.

What about the pros? Are there any pros for oils compared to the whole food equivalent? Sure there are. Let's discuss

- in making salad dressing, oils are more miscible (the ability of liquids to form a homogeneous solution) than nut butters, tahini, and crushed nuts and seeds. The same fiber that helps keep the foods moving in our colon prevents emulsion that is so highly valued in salad dressings. Oils are simply better than nut butters, avocado, or tahini in making an emulsion. Yeah they are more caloric per weight. But the dose is the poison and though I use nut butters, tahini and avocado in making my homemade salads dressings, they aren't as good, in my opinion as flax oil, unfiltered olive oil or walnut oil in making salad dressings. Nut butters and tahini are no substitute for oil in making a good vinegrette (optimal ratio of oil to vinegar 4:1 with the best vinegars being red wine, apple cider and brown rice which don't have added sugars).

- some oils lack anti-nutrients (e.g. brined kalamata olives - sodium, gointrogens flax meal) contained in the whole food equivalent. Artemis Simopolous pointed this out in the Omega Diet. She advised both whole flax meal (limit 3 to 4 tbsn per day) and flax oil recognizing flax oil lacked the lignans but also lacked the goiterogens to make the diet more anti-inflammatory overall.

- some oils like coconut oil have non-nutrtive benefits not found elsewhere. In this case monolaurin, a medium chain fatty acid with anti-fungal, anti-viral, and anti-bacterial properties. I've heard also though cannot corroborate that coconut oil has fewer calories per gram than other oils. The # 6.8 calories per gram keeps getting floated. But when I go to USDA & other sites, the #s don't bear that out.

Bottom line, the no-oil camp has a case. No oil low fat vegan diets have reversed heart disease and prostate cancer. Pretty impressive. Whole foods are generally better than minimally processed plant centered foods like tofu, tempeh, etc. But is the best outcome no oils or a minimal consumption of oils? Why is zero oils better than a one tablespoon limit??? I think when you get right down to it, each person has to weigh the pros and cons, either mine or your own. There isn't a chance that an oil free salad dressing has the same palatability as an oil containing one for me. I still consume oil free salad dressings regularly. But, it's a trade off ... health for palatability. I think experimenting and discovering your own personal truth about using oils is better than an absolute ban. I don't think the case is there.

A one tablespoon limit per day of the healthiest oils, coconut, unfiltered olive oil, flax seed oil is better than an absolute prohibition, in my opinion. That one tablespoon is going to be between 200 to 240 calories. But it may contain squalene with out the sodium you would get with the brined kalamata olive whole food equivalent. That flax oil is going to mix much better with the vinegar and dijon mustard (an emulsifier) than flax meal. Flax meal is better added to a smoothy.

Make your best move. I do not believe that the no oil crowd has made its case. The dose is the poison. And a one tablespoon limit per day would ensure you don't over do it if you can live with that. Just say, I have had my one tablespoon and be done with it. Just my two cents.

Paul (I'm back....though BW still hates me! )

so... the consensus here is that olive oil has nothing really significantly "good"

no fiber, lacks nutrition, etc. etc

but can anyone say why it is "bad"?

other than just it being a lot of calories

frankly, i don't care about the calories ( never counted them and am very athletic and no issue with weight... ever)

but i do use an olive oil that is not heated over 110 degrees and is organic

so why is that "bad" for me?

tastes pretty good

someone mentioned that saturated fat ruins endothelial cells ( realize olive oil is a combo of all kinds of fats saturated, mono, poly

also i hear in vague loose terms of how fats can

1.aid in nutrient absorption then on the other hand it can hinder it

geeez... can anyone parse this out for me?

i don't need to hear that it lacks stuff ( okay, fine it does)

just why can it potentially ruin health?

cuz i lack info on that

try to do a search

and all the internet does is beams and glows and praises olive oil to the max

try to watch the videos presented in this thread

and it just says what it does NOT have ( i eat high mineral foods to get my nutrients... i just use olive oil to sometimes make salad dressing... that's all.. i never rely on olive oil for nutrients)

does olive oil really hinder the absoprtion of nutrients?

if so, anyone have studies on this?

also u just hear its good for the heart etc. ( and i get the supposedly "raw" kind)

unprocessed and organic

but also see in the video that those are not to be trusted

geeez.. i think i'll just eat my hand

but i like prana's advice on grounding chia seeds

just happen to like my salad dressing with olive oil

but maybe could modify it to other types of fats

are there any fats that don't pose a problem?

wow... foods are a trip

i think i'll just eat my arm here

just put a little catchup and mustard and maybe some olive oil and black pepper on it too

maybe some jalapenos while i'm at it

mmmmmm... yummmmy..... my arm.....

Oils are more likely to go rancid, and for refined oils, the element that allow you to taste the rancidity have been removed. Eating rancid oil is like getting chemotherapy, you are loading up on free radicals that will cause oxidative damage to your cells.

Oils are empty calories, just like sugar. Most of the other nutrients and phytonutrients have been removed. Was the human body designed to eat such concentrated foods?

Vegans have the highest inbalance of omega 3's - 6's, and this is giving us heart disease and all types of mental problems later in life. It is highly recommended you listen to this because it is very important. We are undoing all our good diet work by using omega 6 oils, eating too many omega 6 foods and not having enough omega 3's.

40 Year Vegan Dies of a Heart Attack! Why? The Omega-3 and B12 Myth with Dr. Michael Greger
[www.youtube.com]

If you aren't getting good levels of those omega 3's in a good ratio you are really putting yourself to a huge disadvantage. One great thing he does say is to make a high omega 3 food the star food of the diet, and l agree. If there is one food l always tell people to have, it is sprouted chia.

Grinding isn't the best solution either because it destroys minerals according to science papers. Grinding flax doesn't neccessarily help in the conversion to EPA/DHA either.

Sprouting flax/chia greens or have flax sprouts is the best thing to do. Alkso, grinding flax is just one part of a complicated story, it is not going to guarantee benefits from the omega 3's converting to EPA.

There will be more said on this in another thread another day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2013 05:39AM by The Sproutarian Man.

hi prana

u have a good point on the rancidity potential aspect

guess purportedly " raw" ( or not heated above 110) plus organic still are not immune from rancidity though i always store it in a cool unheated area ( like cupboard)

sproutman

can u give examples of a good ratio balance of omega 3 and 6 like on a daily basis

u say 2 to 1... right?

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> sproutman
>
> can u give examples of a good ratio balance of
> omega 3 and 6 like on a daily basis
>
> u say 2 to 1... right?

I'll get back to this later.

Another nightmare which puts raw vegas at high risk of heart attack is also an over consumption of homocystine. The nightmares go on and on with plant based diets, and l am going to write about all the nightmares because l want to see people ditching these raw food leaders who do more harm than help. Vegan diets are hard and serious business and it needs due diligence to make work. Better to get rid of all the fairytale thinking and start getting real so we can do this diet muchg better.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another nightmare which puts raw vegas at high
> risk of heart attack is also an over consumption
> of homocystine. The nightmares go on and on with
> plant based diets

sorry, but that is just false. low fat vegan diets actually reverse heart problems (very well documented to actually bother to put links).

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Another nightmare which puts raw vegas at high
> > risk of heart attack is also an over
> consumption
> > of homocystine. The nightmares go on and on
> with
> > plant based diets
>
> sorry, but that is just false. low fat vegan diets
> actually reverse heart problems (very well
> documented to actually bother to put links).

How old is the research? Is there proof of many vegans avoiding heart problems in the studies? What were the factors measured? How long did the studies go for?

l'll post the research l have which clearly demonstrates this is a major problem in the vegan diet...quite recent research too. Low fat will help, but B12, B6 and folic acid deficiencies greatly contribute to the homocystine excess which gives us as many heart concerns as meat eaters. And yes, some of these land mark studies are quite big that l will post.

Yes Powerlifter, looking at the full picture is very important, and it is important we talk about these problems because very few are. I want to see people wake up so counter action can be taken to do the vegan diet better and give it a better name.

The vegan diet has a bad name and is laughed at because people haven't been diligent to cover all the pitfalls.

There is so much research out there on the vegan diet, and much of it is not so good, so don't expect your raw food leaders to tell you, because they won't...they like living in dream land and so do many of their followers, but that usually ends in tears.

Now is the time to come out with all this and change attitutes so we can do this better. We have got to learn from the past, but we don't seem to be doing so, vegans keep on saying the same old thing year after year..."just eat your raw fruits and vegies and you can live a great life in paradise and live healthfully ever after". Sorry, l don't buy into `raw food 101' talk.

It would be great to have a good raw food debate on t.v and pull out study after study and blow all the raw food nonsense out of the water...change attitudes.

And yes, people are slowly waking up. This is the start of a new beginning....until we discover something else lacking in the vegan diet.

Talking about the Paleo diet, i've noticed that is a very dubious site (disinformation??) because they never seem to link the studies they mention and i've never found any studies which support some of their crazy claims on vegan foods, and no comments section to call them out (control flow of information). Here is one such article that bashes chia seeds:
[thepaleodiet.com]

If the Paleo diet folks are going to approach things like that many will not take them seriously. It will be seen as another joke diet until they become credible.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2013 11:33AM by The Sproutarian Man.

I have a question about B12...

Because B12 can not only be produced by the body on its own with healthy intestinal flora and it takes years for levels to drop to a deficiency, wouldn't that mean you could take a B12 supplement for a month or a few months and be set for at least a year? This is of course if you need to take it and your body isn't producing enough on its own. Part of this, though, is because all of the pesticides and chemicals have been destroying the quality of soil, significantly lowering nutrient levels, including B12.

I'm trying to find a high-quality, organic, cold-pressed kalamata olive oil for salads. Also, cold-pressed coconut oil is extremely healthy too, very potent. Other than breastmilk, it's the only significant source of lauric acid, which is converted into monolaurin in the body.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How old is the research? Is there proof of many
> vegans avoiding heart problems in the studies?
> What were the factors measured? How long did the
> studies go for?

[www.amazon.com]

There are real doctors (no paleo crap) who use LFVDs to reverse heart dissease. search google

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> sproutman
>
> can u give examples of a good ratio balance of
> omega 3 and 6 like on a daily basis
>
> u say 2 to 1... right?

First off, let me say that l am a firm believer in a high fatty acid (predigested fats) low fat diet, l do not believe the oils from fruit and vegetables is enough for the average person in this day and age.

2 - 1 eg = 1.5 cups of sprouted sesame on one day, 1.5 cups of sprouted chia another day. No added oils. + we have the fatty acids from the greens/vegetables with a favourable omega 3 balance to give us further leeway in case we want to include something else in the diet higher in omega 6's.

If we do sprouted chia/flax every second day and have roughly an equal amount of sunflower/sesame/poppy etc another day, we can even get below the 2 - 1 ratio with the further help from greens, fruits, legumes etc.

But relying on avocado to get omega 3's isn't going to be effective, and eating walnuts to get omega 3's will scrape you in the saftey zone with a ratio of 4 - 1, BUT you get a very bad calcium - phosphorous ratio and it will sink you in the long term. And relying on walnuts, chia and flax still won't guarantee you will manufacture EPA/DHA because zinc levels are usually too low in vegans. And natural hygienists would be at high risk from EPA/DHA deficiency [despite having favourable 3's - 6's] because of other deficiencies often reported in their diets. There is one famous natural hygienst who makes me wonder, he has this blank stare and is like he is in another world and only half with it...he lacks the spark of life, and it makes me wonder whether he is a victim of his own diet teachings. It would have been good to have known what he was like 20 years ago.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2013 10:57PM by The Sproutarian Man.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> la_veronique Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > sproutman
> >
> > can u give examples of a good ratio balance of
> > omega 3 and 6 like on a daily basis
> >
> > u say 2 to 1... right?
>
> First off, let me say that l am a firm believer in
> a high fatty acid (predigested fats) low fat diet,
> l do not believe the oils from fruit and
> vegetables is enough for the average person in
> this day and age.
>
> 2 - 1 eg = 1.5 cups of sprouted sesame on one day,
> 1.5 cups of sprouted chia another day. No added
> oils. + we have the fatty acids from the
> greens/vegetables with a favourable omega 3
> balance to give us further leeway in case we want
> to include something else in the diet higher in
> omega 6's.
>
> If we do sprouted chia/flax every second day and
> have roughly an equal amount of
> sunflower/sesame/poppy etc another day, we can
> even get below the 2 - 1 ratio with the further
> help from greens, fruits, legumes etc.
>
> But relying on avocado to get omega 3's isn't
> going to be effective, and eating walnuts to get
> omega 3's will scrape you in the saftey zone with
> a ratio of 4 - 1, BUT you get a very bad calcium -
> phosphorous ratio and it will sink you in the long
> term. And relying on walnuts, chia and flax still
> won't guarantee you will manufacture EPA/DHA
> because zinc levels are usually too low in vegans.
> And natural hygienists would be at high risk from
> EPA/DHA deficiency because of other deficiencies
> often reported in their diets. There is one famous
> natural hygienst who makes me wonder, he has this
> blank stare and is like he is in another world and
> only half with it...he lacks the spark of life,
> and it makes me wonder whether he is a victim of
> his own diet teachings.


What about relying on hemp seeds? Perfect ratio, loaded with minerals and protein, no antinutrients. 2.8 grams of omega-3's per ounce!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2013 10:57PM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> What about relying on hemp seeds? Perfect
> ratio, loaded with minerals and protein, no
> antinutrients. 2.8 grams of omega-3's per ounce!

I would love to consume them, but i'll definitely pass on those. Too much interference from man and they are not real food because they have been either dehulled, cooked or irradiated. I want electric food with husks, not stuff brutalised by man.

Besides, l want low fat/high fatty acid. If l can't sprout it the fat levels will be high.

No anti nutrients?? Where did you read that from? Like all seeds, hemp would have plenty of anti-nutrients.

TSM, is this the famous hygienist with the blank stare?

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Methylation is a fascinating topic and one of the
> roles of the methylation process is to keep
> homocysteine metabolism in check.
>
> Liver detoxification, neurotransmitter/hormone
> production, breakdown of hormones such as
> estrogen, genetic problems are linked to
> methylation issues and so on.
>
> Dr Lawrence Wilson on Methylation -
> [www.drlwilson.com]
>


Great! Dr Wilson is a real gun, got to love than man. Some very high level doctors and professors (associates) speak very highly of him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:15AM by Prana.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> >
> > What about relying on hemp seeds? Perfect
> > ratio, loaded with minerals and protein, no
> > antinutrients. 2.8 grams of omega-3's per
> ounce!
>
> I would love to consume them, but i'll definitely
> pass on those. Too much interference from man and
> they are not real food because they have been
> either dehulled, cooked or irradiated. I want
> electric food with husks, not stuff brutalised by
> man.
>
> Besides, l want low fat/high fatty acid. If l
> can't sprout it the fat levels will be high.
>
> No anti nutrients?? Where did you read that from?
> Like all seeds, hemp would have plenty of
> anti-nutrients.


From everything that I've read, hemp seeds contain no anti-nutrients. Here's one link: [www.livestrong.com]

Hulled hemp seeds still have a lot of nutritional benefits and are loaded with minerals, protein, and omega-3 fatty acids. You can also buy raw whole hemp seeds from high-quality sources that won't be irradiated.