God I love him. He was very cheeky with me when I met him. We both checked each other out. I loved flirting! Love him. Very healthy and he has such a sense of humor. He makes me laugh. Anyways here is his video about back up plans.

He says to fast skip a meal, then you will want to eat fruit. He does not like cooked starches and grains. He says to read his book GRAIN DAMAGE. I have it. I got it with a 100$ pack of books I bought at his tent at the Raw Spirit Fest which he called a clothing sale. "WHERE IS THE FRUIT?" he asked everyone.

[www.youtube.com]

My question is to all you guys what do you think about what he says?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2013 11:37PM by coconutcream.

He is right about cooked starches causing craving for bad foods, and right about grain damage.

As for skipping meals until you feel like fruit, well, that could have been said better. You wouldn't want to be skipping too many meals if you are eating large quantities of fruit because you still want to be getting good quantities of nutrients to help protect us in this world of high pollution and stress.

Lots of other things could be said, but l won't go into it here.

Dougs backup plan didn't work too well for Harley. Harley would have eaten tons and tons of fruit, but look where it got him - protein and mineral depletion, so in the end even he had to give up, but rather than admitting it he used the excuses of; '' @#$%& fruit in Adelaide, too expensive, and ' a back up plan ''.
I've been to Adelaide and there is no shortage of anything there. One third of Australia is in the tropics so we have fruit shipped to all the capital cities all year round.

Why doesn't Doug Graham address his 90 / 5 / 5, as I prefer to call it?

90% medium to long term failure.

5% success, and

5% ambivalent.

Five percent of the population succeed on any sort of diet, but who wants a back up plan with a 90% failure rate?

Everyone is glowing in the initial stages, but later down the line that's when the problems start. In any case, Harleys alternative back up plan for breakfast isn't much different than Dougs. It's on the 30Bananas a day sucks site - and it's not a spoof video. I thought the 30 slices of pizza a day was bad enough, at least it wasn't a sugar filled meal, but his breakfast back up plan beats even the 3 whole pizzas.

He has a large bowl of Kellogs sustain ( nice of an ethcial vegan to support Kellogs) with all it's sugar, chemicals and additives.

Then he pours low fat soy milk from a plastic container( once again full of sugar, syrup, etc ).

Then to get those calories he will need for his difficult bike ride he opens up a packet of raw '' organic '' white sugar and pours 2/3 of a pound on the cereal
(sugarcane is one of the worst crops for the environment ). But of course one bowl isn't enough so he will have a second hearty bowl of Kellogs sustain with '' low fat '' soy milk and another 2/3 pound of '' organic '' raw white sugar. It's a meal of sugar just like Dougs - full of sugar.

Harley was Dougs poster boy for his back up fruit plan and look where it got him!!!

The holes in his argument are so huge. Just imagine if some person went around saying don't eat fruit because most people tend to combine it with refined sugar and fats to make things like ice cream and cheesecake. That would be the dumbest argument imaginable, yet it's somehow valid when applied to starches. I know plenty of people who eat things like steamed potatoes and never add anything to them. The skipping a meal argument is insane. If you're hungry but don't crave fruit, starve yourself until you have no choice but to be happy with fruit. How do we know that self-imposed starvation won't lead to junk-food cravings, especially in those who have issues with junk-food?

What do you think of white potatoes compared to the "perfectly healthy" root veg you mentioned?

Has this worked for you Coconutcream? If it has, that's fine. If it hasn't, there could be a reason.

So many times, people have tried eating only fruit and then blamed themselves and their emotions or some character flaw when they end up doing something else.

But maybe the nutrients that are left out really are important - so important that the signals sent to our brain in their absence are impossible for us to ignore - despite whatever torture we're willing to bear.

Fruits, nuts, seeds, greens, seaweeds, sprouted legumes, and sprouted grains are all good foods. Drink water, exercise (hard) regularly, fast regularly to reset whatever might be amiss for whatever reason, sleep well, get sunshine, and take a B12 supplement. That's a sustainable and healthy raw food diet.

Suncloud. I dont have a problem with raw foods and hunger. I want to be fruitarian, but my back up plan is raw vegan foods. Nut pates, nori rolls, all truly raw nuts I use. I love to juice and I always dehydrate mangoes and tomatoes. Salads, I am not really into, but if you have a nice tahini pineapple sauce or tahini lemon I will eat it. I guess I am raw like raw was in the 1990s before 811 and all that. Before cacao. I do like cacao though. But I aim to be fruitarian. Some days thats all I eat, and I want those days to grow.

I do not want to eat brown rice or pasta or cereal or sugar. I try to stay away from sugar that is processed. What caused me to be raw was 7 years candida overgrowth previous to me being raw. I was 12 times in the hospital in one year, for antibiotics. Noone knew what was wrong with me. Then I found through the internet I had candida. I used to put 7 tb of processed sugar in my dunkin donuts coffee. I loved pizza and those yeasty bagels. SO I stopped and went all raw and in 8 days my symptoms went away.

Like if I went to jail or something, I think I would need a back up plan then, right? Although I heard these protesters who got arrested in Canada, in jail were actually fed raw vegan meals, because that was their diet. Hard to believe you can get raw vegan food in jail. SO maybe I dont even need a back up plan in jail.

------------------

Fruitarians do get sick too. Ann woke up one day 20 days into her juice fasts with spots all over her body. I understand. I know people on atkins who wake up and have scabies and noone else around them gets it. Diet related? noone knows for sure. But people just get sick.
--------

Look maybe all raw fruits and all raw veggies and nuts is no good. But where my mind is at this moment. I feel I have been healed by them, and I do continue to be healed in all areas of my life. I am better person. I am more attractive. I am friendly. I want to have sex. I dont hate myself. Raw food is like the best thing in the world to eat. I am not going to go back to eating pizzas and frozen bagels and only eating so little because I feel fat. Waking up in a hospital bed because I had to much wine to drink at Art Basel. No. That sugary yeasty food has been the devil to me, before I found raw.
---

It kind of reminds me when I was young and taking 4 ballet classes a day and working my ass off for free --just for dance classes...I cheated a few times. I did. I took creatine. Because it made me a super dancer. That is what this whole thing feels like. Like eating processed sugar on cereal. Thats cheating. It will catch up to you. It might give you energy, make you win the race..but its cheating. Why not take a glucose shot, they give you for 99$ at the labs? Eating sugar, then pizza with yeast, then feeding all that with more fruit sugar...I just have a very bad feeling. I dont want anyone to get hurt. I mean I just have a little experience with that, why I turned raw.

But I could be wrong and maybe they will thrive who knows. Mind over matter, maybe its our thoughts and not our food, but I love coming here and telling you all how I feel.

Sproutarian man, what else were you going to say>

-----

I found this online

Eating or drinking too much sugar curbs immune system cells that attack bacteria. This effect lasts for at least a few hours after downing a couple of sugary drinks ...Excess sugar depresses immunity. Studies have shown that downing 75 to 100 grams of a sugar solution (about 20 teaspoons of sugar, or the amount that is contained in two average 12-ounce sodas) can suppress the body’s immune responses.

-

What do you guys think of all those studies saying when you eat processed white sugar for like hours afterwards your immune system is @#$%&?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 07:50PM by coconutcream.

powerlifter, you may need that much protein because you eat cooked foods, but raw foodists are able to utilize about 100% of the protein in their foods, where as a cooked food may have much less, depending on how thoroughly the food is cooked. In terms of proteins that are lost from the body from skin cells and hair and internal cells that are damaged/poisoned and cannot be recycled, this loss might be only 7 grams or so in an adult male.

Most of the protein you are eating is either going out your @#$%& because it is too damaged to utilize, or it is being converted into sugar, as the actual amino acid need is so low, mostly because the body is able to recycle the amino acids in the body from cells that are dead, the exception being the loss explained above.

Does anyone have robert youngs book SICK OF BEING SICK..or I cant remember. Its been years. He has photo graphs of peoples blood who eat high sugar processed diet. He doesnt say to not eat fruit, just when you have candida focus on greens, no sweeteners, etc just for a few weeks. The photos they have of blood. It looks like fungus is in the blood and all these creatures...and even morgellons comes from yeast. Mostly he says bread.

My boyfriend had a french bulldog he fed cooked pizza and she had to be taken in to vet because she had a yeast infection. She used to scratch her vagina raw.

ANyways, Robert says this yeast eat...sugar. Processed but it will try to eat fruits sugar, if that is mixed with dough bread glue.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 08:00PM by coconutcream.

Here's an interesting fact: when people are water fasting, their hair continues to grow. In men, it is necessary to shave as much as it was when they were eating, even though they are not consuming any protein. So my question is this:where does the protein come from to grow that hair, and why would the body continue growing that hair when there is no new protein coming into the system?

Prana. Yeah. Don't nails grow too? THe hair has to get it from somewhere. Maybe the reserves?

Powerlifter I always got my period, even when I did all fruit for three years. It lasts about three days. I did. I always did. The skinniest I get really is about 110. I would love not to have my period. I would I hate it. Although I know I am super fertile. I ate lots of avocados. I mean I used to eat 3-4 a day for a year. I had trees in my backyard. And I ate lots of durian.
I would get really dehydrated on planes, almost sick. I got food senstivities, to certain grapes I would eat would give me hives. Yeah. I had some issues with cold. Thats why I always had to be at the beach! IN the sun! I would ride my bike to my job in a skyscraper and carry up 4 large power sized orange juice from Jamba Juice or fresh squeezed guarapo from the cuban supermarkets. On my way home I would get more juice. And then the banana smoothies and dates and melons.

Everyone is a creator. And We are all so powerful. What works for some does not for others. We are all gods. Power of belief. And any year all humans may evolve all at once.

We all have a grid. But is there a raw vegan grid or a fruitarian grid. You know, like all species have their own grid around our planet? Well I wonder if we are creating a new grid where we evolve off.

And what is truth anyways, if it resonates with you, you call it truth>? We all need to re assess our beliefs, even I.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 08:13PM by coconutcream.

Most of the health gurus are past their 50s.

So in about 50 more years we will know who survived if we are here ourselves to witness the end of the debate.

The Natural Hygienists are already extinct (TC Fry, herbert shelton).

Who knows maybe the only ones left will be the SAD eaters.

And they will say we told you so eat your burger.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 08:15PM by RawPracticalist.

I'm a natural hygienist, and I am alive, so not all hygienist are extinct. Dr Vetrano is still going, though not a raw foodist. Doug Graham is also a hygienist.

How old is Douglas Graham?

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a natural hygienist, and I am alive, so not
> all hygienist are extinct. Dr Vetrano is still
> going, though not a raw foodist. Doug Graham is
> also a hygienist.

Yes Natural Hygiene can work if done the proper way.
Fry and Shelton did not follow their own guidelines and did not probably sprout their seeds and nuts.

Doug must be around 60. Dr Vetrano is in her late 80s.

Coconutcream, I think you and I eat pretty much alike. I hope you didn't mind my concern for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 11:49PM by suncloud.

BJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dougs backup plan didn't work too well for Harley.
> Harley would have eaten tons and tons of fruit,
> but look where it got him
> Harley was Dougs poster boy for his back up fruit
> plan and look where it got him!!!


Excellent points.


powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Lol exactly starve yourself until fruit is
> appealing again, how can anyone take this guy
> seriously,

He has done serious harm to his `so called' reputation, and many have woken up. But his videos and books live on, and that will continue to bring more problems to new people looking for health solutions via a raw vegan diet (past history on this diet proves this). I feel so sorry for the poor folks that follow this diet advice, but sometimes it's best to let people go down an iffy path and learn from their own experiences, but it is hard seeing impressionable folk following diet advice without doing balanced research, it seems like various folks are exercising cultish behaviour when you see them on youtube. It's important to have our own minds and use them.

I can't see such a diet working for most in the long term, and indeed many seem to have problems with the diet in the short to medium term.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 01:01AM by The Sproutarian Man.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If raw foodists utilized the protein so well,
> there wouldn't be so many long termers with
> emaciated appearances and no/lack of muscle mass.
> The truth is even eating 3000 calories like
> durianrider and such recommend, your still only
> getting about 25-40g of protein a day. Thats about
> half of what some adults need to be healthy.


And lets not underestimate the tannin binding factor on protein due to many store bought fruits being high in tannins, and also it's tragic effect on zinc, fatty acid and various other nutrients. The poor natural hygienists are getting hit with whammy's left right and center. And when the zinc is low the EPA/DHA conversion will be greatly compromised. I could go on and on about the whammy's in the diet, but it would take half a day to write it all.

I hope people do well on the diet, but they really have many things working against them with such a diet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 01:10AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Dont cats need taurine, thats why you got to feed them meat? I dont know what taurine is, what is it? I know it is amino acid but what does that mean.

The raw food / fruitarian / natural health experiment has been going on now for over 100 years and the results are in. What we need to do is examine the results and see if we can 1) separate the successes from the failures, 2) improve on the successes and discard the failures, and 3) update them to our present circumstances.

Prana, the body has reserves of everything, not indefinite amounts, but enough to last for people fasting so peoples hair and nails still grow. No one fasts for 2 or 3 years like people trying to sustain themselves relying on fruit.

Although Virginia Vetrano is a hygenist, even she doesn't agree with relying on an extremely high fruit diet like the 80 / 10 /10 - and counsels against it.

I look at the people who were successful hygenists and raw foodists. The thing they all have in common is avoiding processed foods, refined sugar and junk food - exactly what Harley is now eating. We shouldn't muddy the water by saying let's eat junk food, burgers, processed foods etc. because that's one of the failed models and that's what lead the health pioneers to a healthier lifestyle.

The long lived health pioneers like Norman Walker, Bernard Jensen, Jack Lalane all avoided processed foods and had varied diets. All lived into their 90's yet none of them relied on fruit as the mainstay of their diet. Some ate grains, others did not. Some ate cooked food, others did not. Virginia Vetrano falls into this category as well, and is in her 80's and she too counsels against The high fruit model.

All the long lived people everywhere ate a mainly plant based diet that included some cooked foods and grains as well as minimal amounts of ...

No one is advocating a 100% grain based diet. If Harley really was interested in natural health he could have cooked up a bowl or two of rolled oats, rice, millet, whole wheat or whatever and chopped up some bananas, dates, apples, etc and had a healthy sustaining meal rather than what he had.

Why would someone want to follow the two failed models of 1) eating a junk food / processed foods diet, or 2) an extremely high fruit diet? Too many people have tried both models and both have failed miserably for the majority of people.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 03:02AM by BJ.

Great post BJ. Thank you

Are we saying it is not possible to be a successful non supplementing vegan?

Pretty scary. So why are not they listening the strict non supplementing vegan?

To Powerlifter: The food pyramid was replaced by MyPlate several years ago, and the new mantra is "Make half your plate fruits and vegetables."

According to the USDA Dietary Guidelines for Americans, three (3) diets follow a healthy eating plan: The Mediterranean diet, the DASH diet, and vegetarian/vegan diets (pp. 44, 45). The Guidelines can be downloaded here if anyone is interested:

[www.cnpp.usda.gov]

Personally, I'm not in total agreement with everything in the Guidelines, but I feel this represents some good progress (from a vegan perspective).

As for vegetarian diet and heart disease, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics Evidence Analysis Library has issued a Grade 1 rating for evidence in favor of the following "Conclusion Statement":

"A vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease."

Ischemic heart disease is the leading cause of death in the US and most frequently results from formation of cholesterol-rich plaques in the arteries that restrict blood flow to the heart muscle.

Cholesterol is essential however (just as you say), which is probably why we humans make our own. We don't need to eat it to get it.

Exogenous cholesterol: Cholesterol from the diet.
Endogenous cholesterol: Cholesterol produced in the body.

Powerlifter, as for the sustainability of a vegan diet, I think your intentions are probably good; but really, we vegans are doing OK. Check out this video of Dr. Richard Harris at age 80, vegetarian since 1950, vegan since 1964, former Emergency Room Physician (32 years) and Director of the Kaiser Permanente Vegetarian Lifestyle Clinic.

[www.youtube.com]

At around 9:30, you can watch Dr. Harris on the trampoline. It comes right after his sky-dive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 09:20PM by suncloud.

Study on raw vegan diet.

Medical studies on raw food diets have shown some positive and negative health outcomes. According to one medical trial, "long-term consumption of a 70% raw-plant-food diet is associated with favorable serum LDL cholesterol and triglycerides but also with elevated plasma homocysteine and low serum HDL cholesterol" as well as vitamin B12 deficiency.

[jn.nutrition.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 10:02PM by powerlifter.

Hi Powerlifter,

The USDA 2010 Dietary Guidelines specifically and separately address vegan diets in detail with charts, suggestions, and an appendix.

Yes, Dr. Harris takes a B12 supplement. About a year ago, I remember hearing him state on a video that he was considering taking microalgae for EPA + DHA. He said he tried a flax supplement for a while and didn't like the effects, and he also said that he wasn't convinced that anything else was necessary. (This is possibly in the video that I linked above).

You might check out his site. He has good information to share on the science of nutrition.

Congratulations on surviving a vegan diet for 3 years. Definitely a point in case, but your post appears to imply that you were taking many supplements during that time. As you know, my husband and I have both been vegan since 1986. I've taken a B12 supplement since 2001. Sometimes I take EPA + DHA, but usually, I don't think about it.

My husband never supplements with anything. He does eat B12-fortified nutritional yeast. That's it. He's a construction worker and a master diver.

If you have a chance to watch Dr. Harris's entire video, I think it's possible you could find something there of value.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 10:29PM by suncloud.

This video from Dr Greger in 2003 explains why vegans weren't enjoying longer lifespans than meat eaters and what can be done to rectify this situation with supplementing with b12 and omega-3 in the form of ground flax seeds. 40 Year Vegan Dies of a Heart Attack! Why? The Omega-3 and B12 Myth with Dr. Michael Greger

Someone eating a low fat raw vegan diet like 80-10-10 is unlikely to run into omega-3 omega-6 ratio problems, since their overt fat intake is about 5% of the caloric intake (the other 5% comes from the fats naturally found in fruits, green, and foods that are not overtly fat).

And, if you were on 80-10-10 and you were concerned, you could use hemp seeds rather than other nuts and seeds.

Hi Powerlifter,

I was surprised to see you had (have?) copper toxicity. This is rare. Fruits and vegetables are not major sources, although nuts and seeds have a pretty fair amount. Liver and oysters contribute the most.

Just in case....: Have you been tested for Wilson's Disease?

Another possibility is hidden copper in various supplements. Supplements can also lead to deficiencies by competing for cell receptors or by having other inhibitive properties. I imagine you're already aware of this though.

I hope you don't mind my mentioning the above. I care about you. You have such great spirit to be here blasting away like you do! I think probably most people feel that way or you'd be off of here by now.