Hi Prana.

Thank you for providing the Dr. Gregor link. I will try to watch the video tonight. Looks interesting!

it seems that Powerlifer is taking over all discussions and dumping his repetitive negative 'cautionary opinion' about raw food It repeats over and over forever and with a twist of science focusing on the deficiency of b12 and the concept of natural diets. Yet, he has been taking ~ MILLIIONS of supplements (he once stated spending like $100000 over time). He says he does not now but when you get him on a discussion he says he takes X or Y (like for example TMG or Taurine). He was once defending the paleo but fater showing the pics of how bad they look long term he changed his mind? Take his advice with a grain of salt.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 11:53PM by Panchito.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it seems that Powerlifer is taking over all
> discussions and dumping his repetitive negative
> 'opinions' about raw food It repeats over and
> over forever.

Spoken like a true believer as always panchito because talking about the problems with a raw food diet, linking studies is "negative or hating isnt it" .

Copper toxicity contrary to popular belief is very common as is heavy metal toxicity in general. I don't have wilsons disease.

Lol ive tried many supplements over the years in desperation that they would help my health during a time when i was on a SAD diet then vegan. I now take very few supplements as you damn well know, TMG and Kelp, with the odd adaptogen or bitters. You take more supplements than i do. Im not giving any advice so im not sure what there is to take with a pinch of salt, i just relay what science is saying. Not quack doctors like Doug Graham or youtube gurus that your so obsessed with.

Anyway im tired of the constant debates, so you'll be able to rest once again Panchito that you don't have people bringing light to the negative aspects of your fanatical diet.

[drlwilson.com] - Copper Toxicity Syndrome



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 12:01AM by powerlifter.

fanatical diet eh? I am not the one who spends all day on the forum like a hawk.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 12:05AM by Panchito.

Yet your never on the forum are you lol mr 1400+ posts.

At least the majority of time im offering some insight, you just post snidey remarks to anyone who disagrees with you.

I take your often cheeky comments on the chin for the most part, but im not going to rise to your bait this time.

goodbye, i doubt you'll be able to rest in my absence though because there is certainly more than myself waking up to all this raw food dogma. Without people like myself to stimulate conversation on here, this place just dries up to pretty much no activity.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 12:19AM by powerlifter.

Starch does exist in nature, perhaps not as concentrated as in a potato or wheat. I don't agree that starch causes all those problems, but eating refined starches is bad news. Also, raw starch is tasteless and probably an indication that humans weren't supposed to eat starches originally before the advent of cooking.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yet your never on the forum are you lol mr 1400+
> posts.
>
> At least the majority of time im offering some
> insight, you just post snidey remarks to anyone
> who disagrees with you.
>
> I take your often cheeky comments on the chin for
> the most part, but im not going to rise to your
> bait this time.
>
> goodbye, i doubt you'll be able to rest in my
> absence though because there is certainly more
> than myself waking up to all this raw food dogma.
> Without people like myself to stimulate
> conversation on here, this place just dries up to
> pretty much no activity.

I have found powerlifter insights to the forum very useful

What is nature, and which of us lives in nature? None of us live and eat like animals, and no humans have for who knows how long. How many of us climb up a tree and grab tree ripened natural fibre rich food from highly mineralised soils? How many of us @#$%& everything we eat straight back into the ground for the insect life to break down and recycle? Everything we eat and do has been tampered with so we really can't say '' in nature such and such is ''. The only nature for us is the real world we live in and what is available to us and what can we eat and do, and what has worked and what hasn't, and what can we improve upon and what is the best we can do ( in my case, try and do ).

Prana, I agree about the refined starches, but in the case of humans just because something is tasteless in it's natural state doesn't mean that we can't use it if in trial and error it proves to be of benefit to humans.

Fire is dangerous in nature but we use it for heating, and warm water for showers - and some people use it for cooking. Should we be sleeping outside at night in the freezing cold, or in the tropics being eaten alive by insects and predators. Humans have the ability to do things and record the results, and if the results are good, then continue doing what they do.

The monkeys and other apes in nature will eat insects and whatever from time to time, so should we eat them as well.

In our ' civilized ' sedentary passive world many people have limited digestive capacity and by eating small amounts of cooked foods they don't need to stuff themselves beyond a natural capacity by having to eat 15 bananas in one sitting to be satiated, and many of these people live to well over 90+.

Fresh juices ( especially vegetable juices ) are fractured foods and aren't natural, but many health minded people use them to greatly benefit themselves.

Whatever might have been 1 million years ago is meaningless to us now. I even doubt if there ever was a human race that ate 100% raw. I don't even know if i believe in evolution any more. I reckon that somewhere along the line we were visited by aliens from a distant more advanced civilisation and they interbred our apes with some of their lesser stock and that's why we are this way. Is there any evidence of any humans ever eating a 100% raw vegan diet?

Rather than looking at what is a fantasy ( in nature ), I prefer to look at the successes and failures of the last 100 years in healthful eating and see what has worked and what hasn't. Even someone like Norman Walker who didn't eat grains or cooked food still ate '' unnatural inedible '' foods like honey, garlic and cheese occasionally, as well as drinking his fractured vegie juices before his 3 meals and he lived to 99. As for his meals, he never ate large fruit meals but ate nuts and seeds at least twice a day with his fruit, dried fruit and vegies all at the same time.

I'd rather take my advice from the healthy long lived people rather than someone like TC Fry who advocated a 100% fruit diet as the natural human diet but couldn't even stick with it and didn't make it to 80. All the healthy long lived genuine vegans usually eat nuts, seeds and nut butters twice a day with their meals, or they eat cooked starches.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 05:39AM by BJ.

Mado
I miss how the raw foods were in the 90s that is how I eat and I am so tired of people acting like it is impossible to eat all raw.
All these people mad at Doug because he does not have a back up plan just because they failed and Harley and leanne failed now they are bashing all raw people. When I started raw you were either raw or just a cooked vegan.

BJ,

Well, in terms of evolution, I am beginning to believe in the rapid evolution model, when a new species appears in just one generation or less. And as such, I suspect there was a time before fire, and perhaps quite rapidly the use of fire and cooking came about. But before the use of fire, were there human, or simply some kind of upright ape? I don't know, but those pre-fire humans would have eaten a raw food diet, and as such, probably didn't care for starch.

Nowadays, we can all digest starch just fine. But look at some of the problems caused by eating of starch -- especially the refined ones -- Celiacs disease, gluten intolerance, IBS, acidity.

I guess if we are supposed to eat starch, why does starch, even after cooking, require the use of salt and fat to make it palatable?

TC Fry did well as long as he followed the hygienic diet, but he didn't live a hygienic lifestyle, and his partner made him eat cooked food, so then his health started to fail. His doctors in his early 40's didn't think he would make it to 45 based on his health at the time, but the raw diet extended his life to 72, which is an extra 33 years of life. Not bad, for eating fruit for most of that time. He also didn't eat nuts during is fruitarian years, and that caused some problems.

If you want to eat cooked foods and animal products, and it makes you feel good and have great health, then great. For me, after being all raw for near 12 years, I am feeling great and experience health that surpasses any memory I have of my own health in my pre-raw days, including the health I had as a young child.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 06:01AM by Prana.

I don't advocate any specific diet for anyone else. I'm also not here to talk about myself or what I eat. Just because one person does well on a specific diet doesn't account for all the people who end up having issues with that diet. I want to help people avoid a lot of the problems many people encountered in the past when there was no '' other side of the story told ''. I just think we should give people all the facts. For the people who succeed on a 100% raw diet I think it's great - and everyone is welcome to give it a go, but if it's not working then they still have alternatives without beating themselves up or feeling like failures.

BJ, me too, I don't advocate a specific diet for anyone. If someone wants support on their raw food journey, I am more than happy to share my experience. And by the way, the purpose of this forum is to help and support people on their raw journey, rather than discourage their exploration and telling them they just ought to give it up.

It looks like it's time for me to move on. I had a good 13 year run on this forum so I will join Powerlifter and say '' goodbye to one and all ''.

Good points but one should also be careful in not always believing that whatever the fruitarians or the vegans do will never work.

Let's pause and look at the other side.

Many of the scientific recommendations when it comes to diet have not worked in the past. Just look around, thousands dying of cancers every year.

Maybe for some it is more acceptable to be disease free now, in tune with nature, and have some complications with b12 later in life than suffer every day from disease eating SAD.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 05:04PM by RawPracticalist.

What is up with such rigidity? I am sure that 100% raw is indicated and the preferable method of achieving wellbeing if one is experiencing a catastrophic illness OR wants to experience a heightened spiritual state. Does it need to be engraved in stone and never altered? Of course not! The problem I see is that it's like proseletyzing a particular religion and putting down other religions. Why do you have to make others wrong in order for something to be right for you? Doesn't wash.

Hi Storm,

I'm the same way.

Something interesting: I noticed a couple of weeks ago that after all these years of hearing how broccoli gives us more nutrients when it's cooked, American Cancer Society is now saying this: "Broccoli retains the most nutrients when eaten raw. Cooking reduces some of the benefits of broccoli because the heating process seems to destroy some anti-cancer compounds."

Science to the rescue, since researchers are now seriously looking at phytochemicals. I love when science validates anything about a raw food and/or vegan diet.

But back to the point of CoconutCream's thread:

Grain starches would never work for me. Too heavy. BUT if someone wants to have a back-up plan that includes starches and this works well for them, I say go for it.

Cooked greens might be an easier-to-handle back-up plan than starches. For some though, this might not be enough. Maybe slightly starchy foods like green peas, sweet potatoes, or whole corn would make a good back-up plan.

For several years, I had a back-up plan with frozen green peas. I think sprouted legumes are probably important to include in a raw food diet, and I'm starting to think more now about protein (never thought that would happen).

My personal theory is that when a person feels like they really need a back-up plan, it may be because their regular diet is deficient. The key for staying raw is to find the raw version that fills the need. If it does, then IMO it's a good food.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something interesting: I noticed a couple of
> weeks ago that after all these years of hearing
> how broccoli gives us more nutrients when it's
> cooked, American Cancer Society is now saying
> this: "Broccoli retains the most nutrients when
> eaten raw. Cooking reduces some of the benefits of
> broccoli because the heating process seems to
> destroy some anti-cancer compounds."

Hey Suncloud,

Most raw foods will contain higher levels of certain vitamins than there cooked equivelent in there raw state. However it is about the assimiliation, digestion and bio-availibility of these nutrients which is what matters the most in my opinion. As many studies have found on the tough fibrous greens we get more nutrition overall when they are lightly cooked due to the increased digestion, WH Foods says:

Light cooking tends to soften fibrous materials aiding digestion and increasing the potential assimilation of nutrients.

One study has shown that although there may be more vitamin C in a stalk or florets of raw broccoli, we absorb the vitamin C a little better once the broccoli has been steamed or boiled. In a carefully controlled study, the availability of vitamin C from raw broccoli was compared to the availability from cooked broccoli, orange sections and orange juice. All foods forms of vitamin C showed equal bioavailability, except for the vitamin C from raw broccoli, which was less well absorbed.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 09:58PM by powerlifter.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, in terms of evolution, I am beginning to
> believe in the rapid evolution model, when a new
> species appears in just one generation or less.
> And as such, I suspect there was a time before
> fire, and perhaps quite rapidly the use of fire
> and cooking came about. But before the use of
> fire, were there human, or simply some kind of
> upright ape? I don't know, but those pre-fire
> humans would have eaten a raw food diet, and as
> such, probably didn't care for starch.

Hi Prana,

You might like this article about how domesticated dogs can digest starch, but wolves cannot.

[www.scientificamerican.com]

Hi Powerlifter,

I forgot to include the link for that quote from the American Cancer Society:

[www.cancer.org]

Here's the quote from the American Cancer Society again:

"Broccoli retains the most nutrients when eaten raw. Cooking reduces some of the benefits of broccoli because the heating process seems to destroy some anti-cancer compounds."

It's worth noting that in addition to the important phytochemicals, other vitamins will be damaged by heating as well, such as all the B Vitamins.

Vitamin C availability is probably not much of a concern for most raw vegans, especially for those who eat plenty of fruit. For example, my own vitamin C intake is usually at least 10 X the RDA.

So if I have to choose between getting more vitamin C or lowering my risk for cancer, I'll choose the latter.

As for softening the fiber, that's not necessarily a good thing for us or for our friendly bacteria that feed off it. However, if you know of evidence for softened cooked fiber over raw fiber (for a healthy individual), I'm open to seeing it.

I have no idea where Whole Foods came up with their information, but it may simply be outdated science. Not too long ago, people with diverticulosis were told to avoid fiber. Now they're told they need more, and in fact lack of fiber may have helped cause their diverticulosis in the first place.


If someone prefers to eat their broccoli cooked, that's fine with me too. A compromised digestive system might have a better time with cooked.

Science is continually evolving, as it should.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 10:34PM by suncloud.

I am new here and have been following a raw diet since 2010. I am not always 100% raw but mostly high raw (90%). I would like to follow 811rv but I like to add other things to my diet in the raw realm. Though most of my diet is fruit and greens.

I have the greatest respect for Doug Graham and follow him on his board. I have found him to be unfailingly polite even to those who try to malign him on his own board. He gives freely of his time to answer all the questions posted on his board. I was on 30bad for a while but I found it a waste of my time and frankly annoying. I have never been impressed with DR and Freelee but they can follow their own way. I don't like how they bash others and really don't watch their videos after I had some minor exposure to them and saw what they were about.

I think we all have to find what works for us. Raw leaders are human and make mistakes. I think it is their general character that we need to look at and I think that becomes fairly clear over time. I say live and let live.

Powerlifter,

I think you made a very good point about goitrogens in cruciferous vegetables. IMO, this could definitely be a concern especially if a person is regularly eating a lot of cruciferous veggies and never a good iodine source like seaweed. Good point!

To my knowledge though, folate is not more bioavailable when cooked, and so much is destroyed by heating, that it wouldn't really matter. The following is from a document entitled Project Healthy Children, (page 26):

Stability 54,55

"In food, most forms of folate are unstable. Fresh leafy vegetables stored at room temperature may lose up to 70% of their folate activity within three days while food processing and preparation can destroy 50-90% of folate in food. This is because folate is susceptible to destruction by heat, oxidation, and ultraviolet light."

-References:

54 Fortification Basics: Stability. MOST Project.
55 Wardlaw, Hampl, DiSilvestro. 2004. Perspective in Nutrition. Sixth edition.

[projecthealthychildren.org])

Regarding the 2007 study from the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, do you have the name of the study so we can read what was said and what nutrients the author was referring to? Maybe, those nutrients were like Vitamin C - raw foodists already get a bunch.

<<<You might like this article about how domesticated dogs can digest starch, but wolves cannot.>>>

Hey suncloud,

You’ll like this article even better…

[healthypets.mercola.com]
The High-Starch Diet Myth That Pet Food Companies Want You to Believe
November 18, 2013 | 11,652 views

Dr. Becker Interviews Dr. Knueven
12:49 Minute Video
[www.youtube.com]
Download Interview Transcript
By Dr. Becker

Story at-a-glance

• Dr. Becker talks with Dr. Doug Knueven, a holistic veterinarian who practices in Beaver, PA. Like Dr. Becker, Dr. Doug is passionate about pet nutrition and feels most of the commercial pet foods on the market are just not healthy.

• Dr. Doug wrote a wonderful response to a study that appeared in January in the journal Nature. The study concluded that domestic dogs have adapted to high-starch pet food diets, and indeed even “thrive” on them. The study was picked up and heavily promoted by pet food companies selling grain-based diets, and is cause for concern among the holistic veterinary community and other advocates of species-appropriate diets for pets.

• Dr. Doug first breaks down the components of the study so they can be more easily understood. He then explains why the assumptions and conclusions the researchers make are based on incomplete data and/or are generally flawed. One concern is there seems to be an initial bias that says, “Dog food is good for pets.”

• As far as Dr. Doug is concerned, all the study really proves is that dogs’ bodies can adapt to the diets they are fed. But adapting to biologically inappropriate food for purposes of survival is very different from thriving on a diet of species-appropriate nutrition.

• Carnivorous dogs will never evolve to thrive on high-starch diets. There will always be a small percentage of dogs with genetic mutations that allow them to do better on high-starch diets than most dogs, but the species as a whole will not evolve in that direction. Dog owners should give careful thought to what is truly best for their pet – a diet that requires the body to constantly adapt … or a diet that provides natural nourishment.

…

[healthypets.mercola.com]

Peace and Love..........John

<<<For a male who is active like myself even a varied raw food diet wasn't enough. At 14 stone which is about 88kg, to meet the RDA(1g per kg of bodyweight) of protein id need about 90 grams of protein a day. Even cheating with a sunwarrior raw protein shake or vega, i still couldn't get 90 grams easily on an all raw food diet.>>>

Hey powerlifter,

We’ve already discussed this issue before, perhaps you forgot or simply don’t want to believe that WE are NOT Biologically Adapted to EAT DEAD ANIMAL FLESH!!!

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Re: Protein
Posted by: John Rose
Date: June 05, 2012 12:58PM

OK, let’s see if we can make some sense out of all of this and instead of addressing everyone’s individual comments, I’m just going to make a list of some of the most important points.

#1) The RDA for Protein has safety features built in, so instead of multiplying our Ideal Weight in Kilograms by .8, that multiplier should be more like .4 or .3. Now, instead of the average 154 pound man, which would be 70 Kilograms, needing 56 Grams of Protein, his need should be more like 28 Grams or 21 Grams keeping in mind that this not take into consideration Point #6) below.

#2) We have an Amino Acid Pool that Recycles 70% of our protein, so there is no need to consume these so-called Complete Proteins.

#3) The Protein or Amino Acids in Meat might look better on paper in some regards, but we are NOT Biologically Adapted to Eat Dead Flesh, so our Livers have to get in on the act and convert all of those Amino Acids into a form we can use. In contrast, the Proteins in Plants are in a Free-Floating Amino Acid Form and do NOT require our Livers to do any EXTRA Work to get what we need.

#4) If all we ate was Bananas and we ate enough Calories, we would get every Amino Acid we need. One of the first things I did over 2 decades ago was create my own Nutritional Tables so I could look at any one Food and with only one Calculation determine what would happen if all we ate was 1,000 Calories of Spinach or 2,000 Calories of Bananas and even though Bananas only have 5% Protein by Calories (same as Mother’s Milk, by the way) we get all of our Branch Chain Amino Acids and all of the other Essential Amino Acids.

#5) When I’m coaching people, I also use Fuhrman’s example on page 60 in his book, Eat To Live, where he compares 100 Calories of Sirloin Steak to 100 Calories of Broccoli, Romaine Lettuce, and Kale. Surprisingly for most, the Dead Flesh comes in 5.4 Grams and the Greens come in at 11.2, 11.6 and 9.46 Grams, respectively.

#6) Now let’s apply what we learned from the Max Plank Institute in Germany where they found that Raw, Uncooked Protein has TWICE the Biological Value as Dead, Cooked Protein. So now, instead those Greens having TWICE as much Protein, those Greens have FOUR TIMES as much Protein as the Dead Flesh, unless you want to Eat Meat Raw, as Dr. Mercola does because he knows about the Biophotons. As a side note, I do Not share the same beliefs as Mercola as to our need to Eat Dead Flesh and we cannot Eat Raw Broccoli, so the FOUR TIMES Factor does not apply to Broccoli.

Peace and Love..........John

For all of those who like to rationalize why it’s OK to pollute your Food with Fire, heed the words of Oprah …

“It’s every alcoholic’s dream to find some way to still have it.”

Cooking DESTROYS Biohotons and the Lack of Biohotons IS the Fall of Mankind!!!

We Live in the Dark Ages because most of us Cook our Food and if we ever want to Return to a Golden Age, we have to STOP Cooking our Food!!!

Otherwise, EVERYTHING else we do is a DISTRACTION!!!

Peace and Love..........John

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." -Albert Einstein

Once you finish all of your editing, I’ll show you all of your FLAWS!

Peace and Love..........John

powerlifter wrote…

<<<Biophotons are still largely unproven in there role for health, nobody really knows what they truly do at this stage.>>>

This is simply NOT True. If you are so much into Health as you claim, then why don’t you do your own research and prove to yourself that the evidence is overwhelming?

What would happen if you found out the TRUTH that Cooking DESTROYS Biohotons and the Lack of Biohotons IS the Fall of Mankind?!?!?!

What would you do?

Would you stop eating Cooked Food or would you Run to Denial to Protect your Pleasures?

What do you think Schopenhauer meant when he said, "Reason is usually the servant of desire."?

Indeed, the idea of NOT Eating Animals and NOT Cooking our Food scares the hell out of most people, so they go out of their way to Rationalize their Rapacity and their Cooked Food Addiction and then, they go out of their way to NOT learn the TRUTH about Biohotons.

powerlifter wrote…

<<<a varied diet consisting of both raw and cooked foods would provide more than enough biophotons>>>

How do you know this, especially since you don’t seem to know anything about Biohotons?

In all honesty, there may be some truth to what you say, but that would only apply once we reach an adequate level, which most people are not at. According to Dr. Fritz-Albert Popp, the amount of Biophotons in plants, animals and humans depends on the amount of Biophotons in the plant, animal or soil that is consumed. Humans that consume a junk food diet only have 1,000 units of Biophotons. At birth, new borns have 43,000 Biophotons, those who consume an Organic Vegan Diet have 23,000 Biophotons, and those who consume a Raw Organic Vegan Diet have 83,000 Biophotons. So, we start with 43,000 Biophotons and if we do not consume a Raw Organic Vegan Diet, we’ll have somewhere between 1,000 to 23,000 Biophotons.

“What Dr. Popp found was that the healthiest people have the highest amount of bio-photon emission, while the people who are the sickest have the lowest amount. In other words, as we give off light we are in a sense communicating with each other and within and between all of our cells. When people are sick, the light fades and the amount of coherent communication diminishes.”

The point here is that if our Biophoton Levels are too LOW, then every mouthful of Cooked Food is a lost opportunity to get Re-Connected to the Divine!!!

powerlifter wrote…

<<<20 grams of protein as a physically active 70kg male is definitely not enough protein.>>>

First of all, 20 grams of protein is NOT enough protein for a physically active 70 kg male, however, it is enough protein for one who is NOT physically active, especially if it is RAW! Remember, Raw Protein has TWICE the Biological Value as Cooked Protein.

Now, let’s take a look at what I wrote, “If all we ate was Bananas and we ate enough Calories, we would get every Amino Acid we need.” The obvious key here is “we ate enough Calories” and for someone who IS physically active, they will need more Calories and hence, they will get more Protein. When I was playing competitive tennis, I weighed 70 kg and I was burning 5,000 to 6,000 Calories every day and was eating 4,000 to 5,000 Calories every day. If I ate nothing but bananas, I would get 52 to 65 grams of Protein, respectively.

Now how much extra Protein do I need if I wanted to gain 1 pound of muscle every month?

To answer this question and a few others, let’s take a look at what Jeff Novick has to say…

• However (as I also mentioned) the actual need for lean tissue deposition is very small. If someone was to put on 1 lb a month of muscle (which is not easy and hard to do, month after month) one pound of muscle is 454 grams, 75% of which is water weight (muscle tissue is 75% water). So that means the other 25% or 113 grams per month, is protein, or less than 4 grams per day, assuming 100% efficiency and utilization. Assuming 85% efficiency, from plant protein, that would be about 4.7 grams. 28 grams are 1 ounce, so this is like less than 1/8 of an ounce a day of extra protein needed. This is a very very small amount.

• The amount of protein someone needs based on US RDAs is .8 gm/kg body weight. And if someone is overweight, this is based on ideal body weight and not actual weight as excess weight is fat and doesn't need to be fed protein. Also realize that the .8 gm/kg is an overestimate with a safety factor figured in. The actual amount needed to maintain nitrogen balance, is only .3 to .4 gm/kg body weight.

• Studies of the nitrogenous losses of humans each day have established that the actual protein need of a 154-pound male (70 kilos), for instance, is 21 grams a day. (The RDA for protein was derived by raising that figure by 33%, and then doubling that figure.)

• Athletes with low glycogen stores, metabolize 2x the amount of protein as athletes who are carb loaded. ...So the excess protein is needed for energy and not muscle, due to a lack of carb intake.

So based on studies of nitrogenous losses of humans, I would need somewhere between 21 to 28 grams of Protein if I was NOT physically active and if I was active and wanted to gain 1 pound of muscle every month, I would need another 4.7 grams of Protein and yet, if all I ate was bananas, I would be getting 52 to 65 grams of Protein, which is more than enough Protein. Obviously, I will need more than what bananas have to offer, which addresses your next point.

powerlifter wrote…

<<<there are plenty of proven nutrients that we know we need and 2000 calories of banana's comes up majorly short or deficient in a number of those.>>>

Once again, let’s take a look at what I wrote, “If all we ate was Bananas and we ate enough Calories, we would get every Amino Acid we need.” The obvious key here is “we would get every Amino Acid we need” and it’s more than obvious that we need to eat more than just bananas, but I simply used this an example to illustrate that there is enough Protein in bananas.

powerlifter wrote…

<<<As i have said on a number of occasions to you, im more than open to any research on biophotons in regards to there role in health if you can share it with me.>>>

I’m sorry Chris but I don’t believe you. We’ve talked about this on many occasions and since when do you need someone else to do your research? The fact that you have NOT done any research convinces me that you don’t want know the TRUTH because if you did your own research and found the TRUTH about Biophotons, you would realize that you are NOT Eating a Healthy Balanced Diet because 80% of your Food is Lacking in Biophotons.

powerlifter wrote…

<<<Or any research to suggest that 0.3g of protein per kg of bodyweight is sufficient for a physically active male or female.>>>

See studies of nitrogenous losses of humans above by Jeff Novick.

Once again, EVERYTHING else we do is a DISTRACTION if we are NOT bumping up our Biohotons!!!

Peace and Love..........John

Wow, on a different note this is how much it now costs to WATER FAST at one of Doug Grahams retreats - $11,999.00-$15,000 dollars

With no pre/post blood testing or medical staff on hand to the best of my knowledge. Simply daylight robbery.

This is when you know you have an ego the size of walmart when you think your unqualified expertise is worth 15 grand for 30 days. Hes a expired license chiropractor not a MD or a qualified nutritionist. The best sports scientists, doctors and nutritionists in the world don't charge this much.

15 grand to hang out with the man himself, these people must either be rich or have remortgaged there houses to be able to afford that. What is so expensive about water fasting to justify $15,000 dollars and a walking tour lol ?

I hear the water is blessed by Doug Graham which makes it more expensive and contains a special raw biophontonic energy that the likes of David Wolfe just can't produce because they don't eat 30 banana's a day.

Im not a fan of fasting but surely there is a more professional outlet for fasting with medical staff onsite incase anything goes wrong, that doesn't cost a small forture.

These people are all about the health though.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2013 08:23PM by powerlifter.

Today on December 12, 2013, powerlifter wrote…

<<<ive asked you a number of times on here, TELL ME THE ROLE OF THESE BIOPHOTONS and why there so important>>>

Chris, you asked me this very same question 10 months ago on January 22, 2013 and I answered you and you said, “You have explained biophotons here but none of this has ever been documented in human health as far as i know.”

So as you can see, I have explained the role of Biophotons and you even acknowledged it!!!

The only thing I have not done is to do your homework, but I did try to help you understand why this type of Knowledge is suppressed and I gave you 3 examples:

#1) The Secret Life of Plants [But Bose’s Experiments were Denied Publication by the Royal Society.]

#2) Nikola Tesla

#3) Peer Reviewed Articles.


#1) The Secret Life of Plants…

Here are my notes that I took on 3-21-11…

[www.youtube.com]
The Secret Life Of Plants (part 2 of 11) - Music by Stevie Wonder
9:12 Minute Video

4:41 MM
The elements of my body are as one with the Infinite Cycle of Creation and all matter in the Universe. Chanting Ayurverdic Hymns of Creation, devote Hindus reaffirm each day their belief in the Unity of all existence. 5:00 MM

… Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. 5:27 MM

7:15 MM
Through his Experiments, Bose also discovered that both Metals and Living Animal Tissue respond in a similar way to the Effects of Radiation. He postulated if the Continuity exists between such extremes as Metal and Living Animal Tissue, similar Effects should be present in the Plant Kingdom. Touching the Leaves of the Saptoica with a cotton soaked in Ether, Bose demonstrates the Fainting Response of the Plant. The object of his Future Experiments was to Prove through the design and use of highly specialized Machines that all of the Characteristic Responses exhibited by Animal Tissue are also to be found in Plants. But Bose’s Experiments were Denied Publication by the Royal Society. By daring to suggest that Plants have a Sensory System similar to Humans, Bose offended the Learned Members.” 8:14 MM
[www.youtube.com]

I highlighted the Royal Society in Green because that’s our #1 Obstacle - the Darkest of the Dark Side of our Behavior that’s Destroying Knowledge through Controlling the Institutions and Destroying Information through Controlling the Media or in this case, just buying out the Media.

So the Darkest of the Dark Side of our Behavior owns the Media and then they Bribe or Rent Out Corrupt Politicians and find those Academians that are Willing to Sell their Souls at the Right Price and build Police States with a bunch of brain dead thugs and they [Insert]. These Con Artists buy off or Destroy every one they need to maintain Control over the Masses by Destroying Knowledge and Destroying Information and [Insert].

In other words, the Royal Society was put into place to Destroy Knowledge that would keep the Darkest of the Dark Side of our Behavior from exploiting our Natural Resources that belong to every one and NO ONE has a right to own! I’m sure they would like us to believe that it was just an Ego Issue, but when you don’t know what’s going, it’s not easy to speculate that our Species is Preying upon ourselves.

#2) Nikola Tesla…

JP Morgan made sure that his discoveries never saw the light of day because then everyone would have Free Energy and the Rulers of the World could NOT use our Need for Energy to Control the Masses.

#3) Peer Reviewed Articles…

"Trust Us We're Experts!"
by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber

“The idea that all scientific experiments are replicated to keep the process honest is also something of a myth. In reality, the number of findings from one scientist that get checked by others is quite small. Most scientists are too busy, research funds are too limited, and the pressure to produce new work is too great for this type of review to occur very often. What occurs instead is a system of “peer review,” in which panels of experts are convened to pass judgment on the work of other researchers. Peer review is used mainly in two situations: during the grant approval process to decide which research should get funding, and after the research has been completed to determine whether the results should be accepted for publication in a scientific journal.

Like the myth of the scientific method, peer review is also a fairly new phenomenon. ...As government support for science increased, it became necessary to develop a formal system for deciding which projects should receive funding.

In some ways, the system of peer review functions like the antithesis of the scientific method described above. Whereas the scientific method assumes that “experiment is supreme” and purports to eliminate bias, peer review deliberately imposes the bias of peer reviewers on the scientific process, both before and after experiments are conducted. ...peer review can also institutionalize conflicts of interest and a certain amount of dogmatism.” "Trust Us We're Experts!" p. 198

“’The problem with peer review is that we have good evidence on its deficiencies and poor evidence on its benefits,’ the British Medical Journal observed in 1997. ‘We know that it is expensive, slow, prone to bias, open to abuse, possibly anti-innovatory, and unable to detect fraud. We also know that the published papers that emerge from the process are often grossly deficient.’

In theory, the process of peer review offers protection against scientific errors and bias. In reality, it has proven incapable of filtering out the influence of government and corporate funders, whose biases often affect research outcomes.” "Trust Us We're Experts!" p. 199

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So tell me Chris, why are you REFUSING to do any research on Biophotons?

What are you afraid to learn?

If you want to learn more, just search Biophotons and Dr. Fritz-Albert Popp and you will find lots of PROOF!!!

Once again, EVERYTHING else we do is a DISTRACTION if we are NOT Bumping Up our Biohotons!!!

Peace and Love..........John

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also forgot to paste the folate differences
> between raw and cooked spinach, so might aswell
> add here. Again your getting over 2 times as much
> folate with cooked spinach. Infact i just noticed
> that the cooked amount of spinach is half the
> amount of raw, yet still contains over 2 times the
> amount of folate which is pretty impressive.
>
> Spinach, cooked 125 mL or 1/2 cup 139
> Spinach, raw 250 mL or 1 cup 61
>


This means nothing unless proven absorbable.
Where is the study that shows these are more absorbable, and this should be done with real people in a controlled environment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:16AM by Prana.

Hey Chris,

Here is a small snippet from my file on Biophotons just to get you started…

[www.lifescientists.de]
INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE OF BIOPHYSICS

The German Research Groups, Neuss, Germany


Who We Are and What We Do
The German Research Group
The German research group is working in the Institute (II in Neuss (F. A. Popp, S. Cohen, Y. Yan and students). Marco Bischof independently works in Berlin.
Six biophoton equipments are available, one for automatic recording of 16 samples, one with four channels for biocommunication measurements, one for electrochemilunescence measurements, a MCP for images of the luminescent subjects on a screen, one with highest sensitivity for basic research and a whole-body counting-biophoton equipment. The equipments are available for all members of the IIB. Besides of basic experimental research, theoretical work is done in Neuss mainly on biological rhythms as well as on modelling of sources and mechanisms of biophoton emission. "Biophotonics" is developed for practical applications like food quality analysis, environmental indicators, contamination of water and other fluids, research on germination of seeds. Investigations on the biophoton field of the human body under different circumstances are performed. At the same time, the IIB in Neuss is the organizational center of the IIB.
The German research groups has permanent contact with some other Institutes in Germany, i.e. the Institute of Microbiology of the University in Hohenheim, the Institute of Botanics of the University in Mainz and the Landwirtschaftskammer Westfalen-Lippe in Münster. At the same time there are intensive contacts with the Institute of Biophysics at the Eastern-Hill University (India), the Center of Frontier Sciences at the Temple University (Philadelphia), the International Consciousness Research Laboratory (Princeton-University), the Open Laboratories of Biophysics at the Hangzhou and the Harbin-Universities (China).
Brief Curricula of Principal Investigators:
Name: Fritz-Albert Popp
Born in 1938 in Frankfurt/Main, Germany. He received Diploma in Experimental Physics in 1966 at the University of Würzburg (where Röntgen discoverd X-rays), received the Röntgen-Prize of the University Würzburg, and his PH.D. in Theoretical Physics in 1969 at the University of Mainz. He delivered his Habilitation in Biophysics and Medicine in 1973 at the University of Marburg, received nomination as Professor by the Senate of the University Marburg.
He has received several nominations as Lecturer, Research Fellow, Visiting Professor, or Honorary Professor at Universities in Germany, USA, India, and China. He is an Invited Member of the New York Academy of Sciences, member of the International Consciousness Research Laboratory (ICRL) at Princeton University, President of the Worms Academy of Reformative Medicine, Honorary President of the Center of Documentation of Natural Healing (ZDN), Vice President of the International Institute of Biophysics in Neuss (Germany), and member of the Executive Board of the Center for Frontier Sciences at Temple University (Philadelphia).
He has supervised approximately 30 diploma works and dissertations in physics, biology and medicine, and written approximately 150 publications on basic questions of theoretical physics, biology, complementary medicine and biophotons.
Name: Sophie Cohen
Born in 1968 in France, Degree in Chemistry (1988, University of Technology, Marseille), Licence of Molecular Chemistry (1989, Faculty of Sciences, Marseille), Degree of Ingenieur Chimiste (1991, Ecole Nationale de Chimie de Lille). Responsible for the microbiology and industrial prophylaxis at L'Oreal Belgilux from 1992 to 1993 (Recogne, Belgium). Research on Biophotons (Whole Body Counting) at the Biophoton Institute of F. A. Popp in the Technology Center and Technology Park II in Kaiserslautern. From 1997 on, Research Assistant in the IIB (Neuss). Member of the Worms Academy of Reformative Medicine.
Name: Ke-Shue Li
Born in 1934 in China. Degree in Physics (1959, Friedrich- Schiller-University, Jena), Ph.D.(1965) and Habilitation (1981) in Physics (Physics Institute of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing, PICAS). Theoretical Research on Laser Physics (1977 - 1981, PICAS), Research Professor, Work on Biophotons in cooperation with the Institute of Botanics and Biophysics of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing and in F.-A. Popp's Research Group (1981 - 1983 in Worms, from 1987 on in the Technology Center and the Technology Park II in Kaiserslautern), Author of 68 papers on Molecular Spectra, Laser Fusion, Theoretical Physics and mainly Biophotons. Director of the Worms Academy of Reformated Medicine.
Name: Marco Bischof
Born in 1947 St. Gallen, Switzerland. Diploma in Breathing Therapy and Education (1976). Matura certificate (state college for Adults, Zurich, 1981). Studied Cultural and Medical Anthropology, History of Religions, and Psychology at the University of Zurich (1981-85). Independent scholar, science writer, consultant and lecturer, specialized in the history of science, the frontier sciences and holistic medicine. 1988-90 co-founder and member of the advisory board of the Research Laboratory for Biophysical Balneology, Zurzach, Switzerland. Since 1990 founding member and member of the board of directors of the IIB. In 1992 Visiting scholar at the Center for Frontier Sciences, Temple University, Philadelphia. 1994-95 Managing Director of the IIB at Neuss. Research and various publications on the history of biology, history of biophysics, history of bioelectromagnetics, on biophoton research and on holistic medicine.
www.marcobischof.com
Name: Yu Yan
Born 1971 in Shanghai, China. Bachelor's degree in Biology 1993 at Hangzhou University (now Zhejiang University). Master's degree (Diplom) in Biology 1997 at University Mainz in Germany. Ph.D. 2002 at University Mainz. From 1994 on, research work at International Institute of Biophysics in Germany in the projects "biophotons and seed quality", "food quality control by means of biophotonics" and "biophoton emission of plants"
Present Topics of Research
1. Food Quality in terms of Biophotonics. This research is based on Schrödinger's definition of food quality: food shall work for building up and establishing the high order (negentropy) of the consumer. Biophotons, including the relaxation behaviour of delayed luminescence reflect to some extent the organisational degree of the subject under investigation. Consequently, they are indicators of food quality in Schrodinger's sense. Actually, it turned out that small changes in food quality lead to significant changes in biophotonic parameters. This present research and development include basic research on germination capacity of seeds.
2. Investigations and Development of Electrochemiluminescence.Since the biophoton equipments are rather sensivite to single photons they can be used for measurements of electrochemiluminescence, i.e. the creation of single photons by conductive fluids after application of an electric potential. This method is sensitive enough to register a few bacteria per ml water.
3. Biocommunication: In a double chamber, where two samples can be investigated at the same time by two multipliers, the samples can be visually connected and disconnected by a shutter. By recording the biophoton emission alternatively in phases of visual contact and disconnection, it is possible to analyse biocommunication sytematically in terms of correlation analysis. A coincidence counter between the samples can be used as a new tool of investigating the photocount statistics of the samples under investigation. It provides at the same time a sensitive tool of registering external influences on the system.
4. Biological Rhythms: The biophoton measurements on the whole human body over a period of many months have shown evidence that the biophoton field reflects all the biological rhythms as well as left-right-symmetry of corresponding points on the body in case of healthy people. These results require more basic investigation of biological rhythms and their connection to biophotons.
5. Fields of current research are, in addition, bioelectromagnetism, holistic concepts and the understanding of consciousness and evolutionary development
Development of Biophotons in Popp´s Group

1972 F. A. Popp worked as lecturer at the University of Marburg. He found correlations between carcinogenic and optical properties of polycyclic hydrocarbons [1, 2].
1976 B. Ruth, a physicist of the Marburg University, built under the supervision of F. A. Popp a most sensitive equipment (10-17 W) for measuring light emission. In 1976 Ruth and Popp showed evidence of a permanent weak light emission in the visible range (400 - 800 nm) from plant and animal cells and tissues [5, 66].
1976 Popp introduced the term "biophotons" in order to express the biological origin (like bioluminescence) and the quantum character of this radiation of an intensity of a few photons /(s cm²) [2].
1979 Evidence of the proportionality of the excitation temperature of the biophotons and their frequency [3, 6].
1981 Introduction of photocount statistics (PCS) of biophotons. Evidence of the Poissonian distribution of biophoton-PCS [18].
1981 Rattemeyer (a diploma student of Popp), Popp and Nagl showed evidence of the DNA as a source of biophotons [65].
1981 Evidence of the hyperbolic relaxation of delayed luminescence of biophoton emission[18]. 1981-99 Evidence of the coherence of biophoton field [27].
1981-99 Evidence of intra- and intercellular biocommuincation by means of biophotons [28]. 1976-81 Popp traced the tumor problem back to a definite loss of coherence of the biophoton field [18, 26, 1, 2].
1981-99 Introduced biophotonics for food quality assessment [15].
1997 Cohen and Popp showed evidence of biological rhythms of the human body indicated by biophotons [30, 31] as well as of indication to health and disease.
1992 Popp proposed the expansion of coherent states as the driving force of biological evolution [14].
1992 Gu, Li and Popp proposed in particular squeezed states as organization principle of the biophoton field in biological systems [26].
1994 Popp and Zhang traced the log-normal distribution of physiological parameters back to the coherence of the biophoton field [70, 71].
1977-99 Evidence of biophotons for triggering all the biochemical reactions in the living cell [17, 26].
1995-98 Chang and Popp showed evidence that electroluminescence is the most sensitive tool for assessment of changes of the quality of fluids, including microbial infection [72].
1995-98 Popp, Chang, and Shen showed evidence for non-substantial biocommunication by means of biophotons [72].
1998 Popp and Chang proposed phase conjugation effects as mechanism of non-substantial biocommunication.(Photon Sucking and the Basis of Biological Organization)
Definition of Biophotons
This term was used the first time by F. A. Popp (1976) in order to describe a permanent light emission from all biological systems in terms of single photons, indicating a biological quantum phenomenon. The intensity ranges from a few up to some hundred photons/(s cm²) within a spectral range from at least 300 to 800 nm. The spectral distribution is flat, following almost a f = const. - law which means that the excitation temperature increases proportional to the frequency under consideration. The photocount statistics follows a Poissonian distribution, the relaxation of delayed luminescence (photon intensity after illumination of the system in darkness) follows not an exponential (exp (-at)) but a hyperbolic (1/t) law. Every change in the biological or physiological state of the living system is reflected by a corresponding change of biophoton emission.
Research Facilities
Basic facilities for biochemical and biological research in Neuss, include:
• Culture facilities for biological materials with laminar flow and temperature-regulated incubators
• Light-microscopic facilities with video-cinematographic registration
• Spectrophotometric facilities
The biological equipment allows measurements with a variety of biological materials.
• Single Photon Counting System for General Measurements
• Double Chamber for Coincidence Measurements
• Whole-Body (Large Surface)-Counting System
• Electroluminescence Measurement System
• Multi-Chamber-Analyzer
The photocount systems allow measurement of spectral photon intensities down to 10-17 W, the measurement of photocount statistics and of coincidences.
Development and Commercial Projects
"Biophotonen" is a company working for development and practical applications of biophotonics. The work is based on a variety of patents. "Biophotonen" solves practical problems of food industry, environmental industry, cosmetics, agriculture and other branches. The service concerns
• Quality of food in terms of negentropy parameters
• Quality of water and fluids
• Optimization of quality
• Effects and side effects of pollutants
"Biophotonen" takes orders for investigating samples and for building equipments for biophotonics.

Phone: 02182-825131
Fax: 02182-825132
Email: Biophotonik.Kl@t-online.de
References
1. Popp, F.A.: Molecular Aspects of Carcinogenesis. In: Deutsch, E., Moser, K., Rainer, H., Stacher, A.(eds.): Molecular Base of Malignancy. Thieme Verlag, Stuttgart 1976, pp. 47-55.
2. Popp, F.A.: Biophotonen: Ein neuer Weg zur Lösung des Krebsproblems. Schriftenreihe Krebsgeschehen, Bd. 6. Verlag für Medizin Dr. Ewald Fischer, Heidelberg 1976. 2. verbesserte und erweiterte Auflage 1984.
3. Popp, F.A.: Vom Wesen des Lebens: Analyse der Strahlung aus biologischen Systemen. Umschau, Vol. 79, Heft 8 (1979), pp. 235-239.
4. Popp, F.A.: Photons and their importance to biology. In: Wolkowski, Z.W. (ed.): Proceedings of the International Symposium on Wave Therapeutics - Interaction of non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation with living systems; Versailles, 19.-20. Mai 1979. Université de Paris-Val de Marne, Créteil 1983, pp.43-59.
5. Popp, F.A.: Experimental investigations on ultraweak photon emission from biological systems. In: Schram, Eric P., Stanley, P.(eds.): Proceedings International symposium on analytical applications of bioluminescence and chemilumiscence, Brüssel 1978, pp. 601-617.
6. Popp, F.A.: Coherent photon storage of biological systems. In: Popp, F.A., Becker, G., König, H.L, Peschka, W. (Hrsg.): Electromagnetic Bio-information. Proceedings of the symposium, Marburg, 5. September 1977. Urban & Scharzenberg, München-Wien-Baltimore 1979.
7. Popp, F.A.: Biologie des Lichts. Verlag Paul Parey, Berlin-Hamburg 1984.
8. Popp, F.A.: Principles of quantum biology as demonstrated by ultraweak photon emission from living cells. In: Proceedings of the international conference on lasers '85, 2.-6. Dez.1985, The Society of Optical & Quantum Electronics, Las Vegas, pp. 311-316.
9. Popp, F.A.: On the coherence of ultraweak photon emission from living tissues. In: Kilmister, C.W. (ed.): Disequilibrium and self-organisation. D. Reidel, Dordrecht-Boston 1986, pp. 207-230.
10. Popp, F.A.: On the coherence of ultraweak photon emission from living tissues. In: Jezowska-Trzebiatowska, B., et al.(eds.): Photon emission from biological systems. World Scientific Publishers, Singapore 1987, pp. 137-152.
11. Popp, F.A.: Some essential questions of biophoton research, and probable answers. In: Popp, F.A., Li, K.H., Gu, Q.(eds.): Recent advances in biophoton research and its applications. World Scientific Publishing, Singapore 1992, pp. 1-46.
12. Popp, F.A.: Evolution as the expansion of coherent states. In: Popp, F.A., Li, K.H., Gu, Q.(eds.): Recent advances in biophoton research and its applications. World Scientific Publishing, Singapore 1992, pp. 445-456.
13. Popp, F.A.: Some remarks on biological consequences of a coherent biophoton field. In: Popp, F.A., Li, K.H., Gu, Q.(eds.): Recent advances in biophoton research and its applications. World Scientific Publishing, Singapore 1992, pp. 357-373.
14. Popp, F.A.: Evolution as expansion of coherent states. In: Rubik, Beverly (ed.): The interrelationship between mind and matter. Center for Frontier Sciences at Temple University, Philadelphia 1992.
15. Popp, F.A.: Die Botschaft der Nahrung: Unsere Lebensmittel in neuer Sicht. Fischer alternativ. Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag, Frankfurt am Main 1993.
16. Popp, F.A.: Electromagnetism and living systems. In: Ho, Mae-Wan, Popp, F.A., Warnke, U.(eds.): Bioelectrodynamics and biocommunication. World Scientific Publishing, Singapore 1994, pp. 33-80.
17. Popp, F.A., Becker, G., König, H.L., Peschka, W. (Hrsg.): Electromagnetic bio-information. Proceedings of the symposium, Marburg, 5. September 1977. Urban & Schwarzenberg, München-Wien-Baltimore 1979. 2. durchges.u.erw. Aufl.1989.
18. Popp, F.A., Ruth, B., Bahr, W., Böhm, J., Grass, P., Grolig, G., Rattemeyer, M., Schmidt, H.G., Wulle, P.: Emission of visible and ultraviolet radiation by active biological systems. Collective Phenomena, Vol. 3 (1981), pp. 187-214.
19. Popp, F.A., Nagl, W.: A physical (electromagnetic) model of differentiation. 2) Application and examples. Cytobios, Vol. 37 (1983), pp. 71-83.
20. Popp, F.A., Li, K.H., Nagl, W.: A thermodynamic approach to the temperature response of biological systems as demonstrated by low level luminescence of cucumber seedlings. Zeitschrift für Pflanzenphysiologie, Vol. 114, Heft 1 (1984), pp. 1-13.
21. Popp, F.A., Nagl, W., Li, K.H., Scholz, W., Weingärtner, O., Wolf, R.: Biophoton emission - New evidence for coherence and DNA as source. Cell Biophysics, Vol. 6 (1984), pp. 33-51.
22. Popp, F.A., Nagl, W.: Towards an understanding of stacked base interactions: Non-equilibrium phase transitions as a possible model. Polymer Bulletin, Vol. 15 (1986), pp. 89-91.
23. Popp, F.A., Gurwitsch, A.A., Inaba, H., Slawinski, J., Cilento, G., van Wijk, R., Chwirot, W.B., Nagl, W.: Biophoton emission (Multi-author review). Experientia, Vol. 44 (1988), pp. 543-600.
24. Popp, F.A., Li, K.H., Mei, W.P., Galle, M., Neurohr, R.: Physical aspects of biophotons. Experientia, Vol. 44 (1988), pp. 576-585.
25. Popp, F.A., Deny, J.: Biophotonen-Information und Chaostheorie. In: Stacher, H. (Hrsg.): Ganzheitsmedizin. Zweiter Wiener Dialog. Facultas Universitätsverlag, Wien 1991, pp. 53-66.
26. Popp, F.A., Li, K.H., Gu, Q. (eds.): Recent advances in biophoton research and its applications. World Scientific Publishing, Singapore 1992.
27. Popp, F.A., Li, K.H.: Hyperbolic relaxation as a sufficient condition of a fully coherent ergodic field. International Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 32, No. 9 (September 1993), pp. 1573-1583.
28. Popp, F.A., Chang, J.J., Gu, Q., Ho. M.W.: Nonsubstantial biocommunication in terms of Dicke's theory. In: Ho, Mae-Wan, Popp, F.A., Warnke, U. (eds.): Bioelectrodynamics and biocommunication. World Scientific Publishing, Singapore 1994, pp. 293-317.
29. Chwirot, W.B., Popp, F.A.: White-light-induced luminescence and mitotic activity of yeat cells. Folia Histochemica et Cytobiologica, Vol. 29, No. 4 (1991), pp. 155.
30. Cohen, S., Popp, F.A.: Low-level luminescence of the human skin. Skin Research and Technology, Vol. 3 (1997), pp. 177-180.
31. Cohen, S., Popp, F.A.: Biophoton emission of the human body. Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology B: Biology, Vol. 40 (1997), pp. 187-189.
32. Etienne, J.J., Popp, F.A.: Low-level luminescence of Acetabularia acetabulum as a tool for evaluating innocuity and efficiency of cosmetic ingredients. 17th IFSCC International Congress, Yokohama 1992.
33. Galle, M., Neurohr, R., Altmann, G., Popp, F.A., Nagl, W.: Biophoton emission from Daphnia magna: A possible factor in the self-regulation of swarming. Experientia, Vol. 47 (1991), pp. 457-460.
34. Gu, Q.: The Differential Equations Describing Field-Matter Interaction and their Applications to Coherent Non-linear Optics. Proceedings of the 2nd National Conference on Fundamental Optical Science, p.45, Harbin, China 1984.
35. Gu, Q.: Interactions of Laser Radiation with a Biological Cell. Optics News (USA), Vol. 12 (1986), 209.
36. Gu, Q.: Some Non-linear Effects in Superradiance. (review) Quantum Electronics (China), Vol. 4 (1987), 107.
37. Gu, Q.: Quantum Beats in Superradiance. Chin. Phys. Lasers (USA), Vol. 14 (1987), 709.
38. Gu, Q.: Squeezing in Superradiance. Chin. Phys. Lasers (USA), Vol. 15 (1988), 218.
39. Gu, Q.: Chaos in Superradiance. Proceedings of the 6th National Conference on Nonequilibrium Statistical Physics, p. 1013, Wulumuqi, China 1988.
40. Gu, Q.: The Ultraweak Photon Emission from Biological Systems (review). Quantum Electronics (China), Vol. 5 (1988), 186.
41. Gu, Q.: Photon Statistics in Ultraweak Photon Emission from Living Systems. Bull Am. Phys. Soc. (USA), Vol. 33 (1988), 1636.
42. Gu, Q.: Ultraweak Photonemission from Living Systems (review). Science (China), Vol. 41 (1989), 35.
43. Gu, Q.: An Outline of Superradiance Research (review). Physics (China), Vol. 18 (1989), 15.
44. Gu, Q.: Analogy Between Life Phenomenon and Laser. Chin. J. Infrared Research (USA), Vol. 8 (1989), 69.
45. Gu, Q.: Ultraweak Photon Emission from Living Systems (lecture). Physics (China), Vol. 18 (1989), 235.
46. Gu, Q.: Potential Well Model and its Application in the Study of Organism Colouring. Chin. J. Infrared Research (USA), Vol. 8 (1989), 543.
47. Gu, Q.: Quantum Theory of Biophoton Emission. In: Recent Advances in Biophoton Research and its Applications, Popp F. A., Li K. H. and Gu Q.(eds.) pp. 59-114, World Scientific, Singapore, New Jersey, London, Hong Kong (1992).
48. Gu, Q., Popp, F.A.: Nonlinear response of biophoton emission to external perturbations. Experientia, Vol. 48 (1992), No. 11-12, pp. 1069-1082.
49. Gu, Q., Popp F.A.: Physical Aspects of Biophoton Emission (invited paper). Third Arnold-Rikli-Symposium (Biologic Effects of Light), Basel, Switzerland (1993), also Photoimmunology & Photomedicine (USA), Vol. 9 (1993), 177.
50. Gu, Q., Popp F.A.: Biophoton Physics: A Potential Measure of Organisational Order. In: Biologic Effects of Light, Jung E. G. and Holick M. F. (eds.), pp. 425-443, Walter de Gruyter, Berlin, New York (1994).
51. Gu, Q., Popp F.A.: Biophoton Emission as a Potential Measure of Organisational Order. Science in China (English Edition), Vol. B37 (1994), 1099.
52. Gu, Q.: Optical Soliton and Biophoton Emission (invited paper). Proceedings in 5th Conference of the Society of Chinese Physicists in Germany, Worms, Germany (1994).
53. Gu, Q.: Quantum Interference between Coherent States. In: Biophotonics, Beloussov L. V. and Popp F. A.(eds.) pp. 115-135, Bioinform Services Co., Moscow (1995).
54. Gu, Q.: Biophotons and Nonclassical Light In: Biophotonics. to be published by D. Reidel Publ. Comp.(1998).
55. Ho, M.W., Popp, F.A.: Maxwell's demon, resonance and coherence in living systems. Paper presented at the 3rd Camelford conference on the implications of the Gaia thesis: "Symbiosis, cooperativity and coherence", 7.-10. November, 1989, The Wadebridge Ecological Center, Camelford, Cornwall, UK.
56. Ho, M.W., Popp, F.A.: The evolution of biological form and organization without natural selection. Proceedings of the AAAS symposium on nonrandom evolution: "Matter, life, mind". Washington, DC, 14.-19. February, 1991.
57. Ho, M.W., Ross, S., Bolton, H., Popp, F.A., Li, X.X.: Electrodynamic activities and their role in the organization of body pattern. Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1992), pp. 59-77.
58. Ho, M.W., Popp, F.A.: Biological organization, coherence, and light emission from living organisms. In: W. Stein, F.J.Varela (eds.): Thinking about biology. SFI Studies in the Sciences of Complexity, Lectures Notes, Vol. III, Addison-Wesley, 1992.
59. Ho, M.W., Popp, F.A., Warnke, U. (eds.): Bioelectrodynamics and biocommunication. World Scientific Publishing, Singapore 1994.
60. Li, K.H., Popp, F.A., Nagl, W., Klima, H.: Indications of optical coherence in biological systems and its possible significance. In: Fröhlich, H., Kremer, F. (eds.): Coherent Excitations in Biological Systems (1983), pp. 117-122.
61. Li, K.H., Popp, F.A.: Non-exponential decay law of radiation systems with coherent rescattering. Physics Letters, Vol. 93A (17.Januar 1983), No.5, pp. 262-266.
62. Li, K.H., Popp, F.A.: Dynamics of DNA excited states. In: Mishra, R.K. (ed.): Molecular and biological physics of living systems. Kluwer, Boston-Dordrecht 1990, pp. 31-52.
63. Li, K.H., Popp, F.A.: Coherence and some quantum paradoxes. In: Popp, F.A., Li, K.H., Gu, Q.(eds.): Recent advances in biophoton research and its applications. World Scientific Publishing, Singapore 1992, pp. 421-438.
64. Nagl, W., Popp, F.A.: Opposite long-range interactions between normal and malignant cells. In: Barrett, T.W., Pohl, H.A. (eds.): Energy transfer dynamics. Springer Verlag, Berlin-New-York 1987, pp. 248-256.
65. Rattemeyer, M., Popp, F.A., Nagl, W.: Evidence of photon emission from DNA in living systems. Naturwissenschaften, Vol. 68, Nr. 11 (1981), pp. 572-573.
66. Ruth, B, Popp F.A.: Experimentelle Untersuchungen zur ultraschwachen Photonenemission biologischer Systeme. Zeitschrift für Naturforschung, Vol 31c (1976) 741-745
67. Slawinski, J., Popp, F.A.: Temperature hysteresis of low-level luminescence from plants and its thermodynamical analysis. Journal of Plant Physiology, Vol. 130 (1987), pp. 111-123.
68. van Wijk, R., Tilbury, R.N., Slawinski, J., Ezzahir, A., Godlewski, M., Kwiecinska, T., Rajfur, Z., Sitko, D., Wierzuchowska, D., Kochel, B., Qu, Q, Popp, F.A., Lilius,E.-M., Marnila, P., Aken, J.M. van: Multi-author review on biophoton emission, stress and disease. Experientia, Vol. 48 (1992), No. 11-12, pp. 1092-1102.
69. van Wijk, R., van Aken, J.M., Mei, W.P., Popp, F.A.: Light-induced photon emission by mammalian cells. Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology B: Biology, Vol. 18 (1993), pp. 75-79.
70. Zhang, C.-L., Popp.F.A.: Log-normal distribution of physiological parameters and the coherence of biological systems. Medical Hypotheses, Vol.43 (1994) pp. 11-16.
71. Zhang, C.-L., Popp.F.A., Bischof, M. (eds.): Current development of Biophysics: the stage from an ugly duckling to a beautiful swan. Hangzhou University Press, Hangzhou, 1996.
72. Chang J.J., J. Fisch, Popp, F.A. (eds.): Biophotons. Kluwer Academic Publishers, Dordrecht, 1998.
73. Popp, F. A.: Biophotons and Their Regulatory Role in Cells. Frontier Perspectives (The Center for Frontier Sciences at Temple University, Philadelphia), 7 (1998), 13-22.
74. Popp, F. A. and J. J. Chang: Photon Sucking and the Basis of Biological Organization.
75. Popp, F. A.: A Book Review of L. Beloussov: The Dynamic Architecture of a Developing Organism. An Interdisciplinary Approach to the Development of Organism. Kluwer Academic Pblishers, 1998. Dordrecht, Boston, London. 238p.
76. F.A. Popp, J.J. Chang, A. Herzog, Z. Yan and Y. Yan: Evidence of Non-Classical (Squeezed) Light in Biological Systems. Physics Letters A, 293 (1-2) (2002), pp 98-102.
77. Fritz-Albert Popp and Yu Yan: Delayed Luminescence of Biological Systems in Terms of Coherent States. Physics Letters A, 293 (1-2) (2002) pp, 93-97.
78. S. Cohen, F. A. Popp, Y. Yan: Nonlocal effects of biophoton emission from the human body.
79. F. A. Popp: Consciousness as Evolutionary Process based on Coherent States.
80. F. A. Popp: Molecular Base of Life.
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[www.lifescientists.de]
Institute of Biophysics, Academia Sinica, Beijing, China
changjj@sun5.ibp.ac.cn
Who We Are and What We Do
Brief Curricula of the Principal Investigator:
• Jiin-Ju Chang
Other Members of the Research Group
Available Research Facilities and Current Collaborations
Address
References
Internet Publications:
• Photon Sucking and the Basis of Biological Organization
• Cellular Biophysics
• Biophoton Emission
• Applied Science
Present Topics of Research
Who We Are and What We Do
(1) Biological effects of physical factors on living cells
It has been shown that some integral proteins of cell membranes like Na,K-ATPase can be activated by pulsed electric field and some physical factors can be taken by living cells as informational signals which can cross cell membrane and affect elements of cellular signaling pathways, like second messenger cAMP, Ca+. Some publications were made in this direction (see list of publications).
(2) Coherence of biophotons and biophotonic communication
After F.A.Popp (1992) using the double chamber measuring system synchronous photon emission from sample A and sample B of Dinoflagellates [JR Insert: any of an order (Dinoflagellata) of chiefly marine planktonic usually solitary unicellular phytoflagellates that include luminescent forms, forms important in marine food chains, and forms causing red tid] when they can "see" each other by opening the shutter between the two sample chambers has been observed. The synchronism can not be explained simply in terms of physical light scattering but of an electromagnetic interaction that takes part in communication between the two samples. (1994 Chinese Science Bulletin).
By using the coincidence counting system (CCS), the following preliminary results were shown:
(A). Distribution of measured coincidences of sample A and sample B follows theoretical Poisson distribution rather than geometrical one for both cases of the shutter opened and closed suggesting that they are random and mere coherent than chaotic. However there are some differences between the case of the shutter opened and closed. All perturbations were shown to influence sensitively the Poissonian distribution, resulting in some deviation. Under some disturbances the photon sources still can keep the Poissonian distribution although with some deviation, but some perturbations can destroy the Poissonian distribution. (1996 Conference of Neuss).

(. Some samples show that the measured coincidence deviates to a higher value than the random coincidence when the shutter opened whereas deviates to lower when the shutter closed. By changing measuring parameters, this phenomenon can become more identical. (1997 Conference of Neuss).
(3) Photon emission from nerve cells
It has been shown that photon emission from embryonic chicken brains and brain cells was related to the developmental stages and the environmental conditions. Suspended brain cells prepared from a intact brain without any chemical treatment were shown to have a higher intensity than the intact brain. After white light illumination, a short-life delayed emission from intact brains and brain cells was observed, and the relaxation behavior follows a hyperbolic rather than an exponential law. The detected photon emission should be explained as the existence of a non-localized coherent field within the measuring system and also should be comprehended in a manner of the interactions between the intrinsic fields within the living systems and their environmental external fields (1995 Chinese Science Bulletin, 1996 Science in China).
(4) Electro-luminescence and its applications
Since 1993 the group has been studying electro-luminescence in principles and also in applications. The group has developed a Sensitive Method for Fast Detecting Microbial Contamination. This method can be used for detecting low contamination of microorganisms in liquid samples, in particular, in drinks like milk, beer and juice, in water and in medical remedies. This method can be used in all steps of industrial production, and the equipment can be linked directly to production lines for monitoring qualities of the products. The sensitivity of this method can get as high as detecting about 10 to 100 bacteria/ml. The advantage of this method is its simplicity in technical manipulation, its rapines and its high sensitivity than that of normal colony methods.(1995 European patent applying and 1996 Chinese patent applying)
(5) Biological structure and electromagnetic fields
The group has established the 3-D model of outer membrane structure of Chlamydia trachomatis. and has identified some important structures and properties of the prokaryotic cells by using computer image analysis combined with electron microscopy in cooperation with Dr. Leonard (European Molecular Biology Laboratory, Germany) and Dr. Y. X. Zhang (Beijing Institute of Ophthalmology and Boston University).
The research projects of this group are supported by National Natural Science Foundation of China, the State Science and Technology Commission of China and also supported by the Institute of Biophysics, Chinese Academy Sciences

Brief Curricula of the Principal Investigator
Name: Jiin-Ju Chang (Jinzhu Zhang )
Curriculum vitae
Professor of Biophysics, Chairman of Department of Cell Biophysics, Member of Scientific Committe of Institute of Biophysics of Chinese Academy of Sciences. Member of the ultrustructure committee of the Chinese Society for Cell Biology. Graduated from Deptartment of Biophysics, University of Science and Technology of China in july of 1963.Was born in 1937 in Liaoning Province of China.
Since 1972 the head of EM (electron microscopy) Laboratory in the Institute of Biophysics, Chinese Academy of Sciences. Beijing
1978 to 1993: Associate Professor.Worked in the laboratory of Prof. Bei Shizhang, the director of the Institute of Biophysics, Chinese Academy of Sciences.
(1980 January to 1982 July: Post doctoral visiting scientist in EMBL, European Molecular Biology Laboratory, Heidelberg, Germany.)
1993 to now: Chairman of Dept. Cell Biophysics. Professor. The head of Bioelectromagnetics research group in the Institute of Biophysics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing.
Scientific Interests
• Biological effects of physical factors on living cells, especially on nerve cells.
• Cell signalling and cell communication.
• Biological structures including prokaryotic cells like Chlamydia, Rhizobium and eukaryotic cells like blastoderm cells of chicken embryos.
• Biological methedology, especially electron microscopy.
• Interactions between root nodule bacteria , with their host plant cells and symbiosis.
• Proliferation and assembly of Chlamytial cells and biological evolution.

In these areas more than 50 papers have been published since 1980.(see major publication list)
Other Members of the Research Group
• Wen-Dou Yu
• Tong Sun
• Feng-Lang Zhou
• Hung-Lue Shen
• Ya Chen
• Yan Wang
• Yong-Houng Zhau
Available Research Facilities and Current Collaborations
Equipments and apparaturs for Cell Biology, Molecular Cell Biology and Cellular Biophysics studies. Collaborations:
• Prof. Dr. F. A. Popp, International Institute of Biophysics, Neuss, Germany
• Dr. K. Leonard, European Molecular Biology Laboratory, Heidelberg, Germany
• Dr. Y. X. Zhang, Boston University, School of Medicine, USA.
Address
Institute of Biophysics, Chinese Academy Sciences
15 Datun Road, Chaoyang District,
Beijing 100101, China
Tel008610)-6488-8578
Fax: (008610)-6488-8428
E-mail: changjj@sun5.ibp.ac.cn

References
1. Chang J.J., K. Leonard and Y.X.Zhang (1997): Structural studies of the surface projections of Chlamydia trachomatis by electron microscopy, J. Med. Microbiol. 46, 1013-1018
2. Zhang,J.Z.,Yu,W.D., Sun,T. and F.A. Popp(1997): Spontaneous and light-induced photon emission from intact brains of chick embryos, Science in China ( Series C) 40(1), 44-51
3. Shen,H.H. and J.J. Chang(1997): Effects of pulsed electric fild on cytosolic Ca2+ and cAMP levels in embronic chick brain cells, Acta Biophys. Sinica. 1997(1),(in chinese with english abstract)
4. Zeng,C.M.,Cai.S.T.,Zhou,F.L.,Zhang,J.Z.Wang,P(1996): Anchring of C-myc on nuclear matrix proteins in process of mouse thymic T lymphocyre proliferation by Con A. Science in China ( Series C ) 39(5), 511-516
5. Chang,J.J.,F.A.Popp, and W.D.Yu,(1995): Communication between Dinoflagellates by Means of Photon Emission. in " Proceedings of International Conference on Non-equilibrium and Coherent Systems in Biophysics, Biology and Biotechnology. Sep. 28-Oct.2. 1994, Moscow.eds,L.V. Beloussov and F.A. Popp, Bioinform Servaces Co. Rassia, 1995,p318-330.
6. Yu,W.D.,J.J.Chang,(1995): Studies on the Development of Embryonic Chicken Brain Cells by means of Photon Emission, Chinese Science Bulletin,40:1317-1321
7. Zhang,J.Z.,F.A.Popp, and W.D.Yu,(1995): Research on Cell Communication of P.elegans by Means of Photon Emission. Chinese Science Bulletin. 40:76-79
8. Chang,J.J.,Y.Liu.,and K.J.Kong,(1994): Dynamic Cell Membrane Events Following the Application of Single Pulse Electric Field. in " Bioelectrodynamics and Biocommunication" (ed.Ho,M.W.,F.A.Popp and U.Warnke) Word Scientific Publishing Co. 251-268
9. Zhang,J.Z.,K.J.Kong,Q.W.Lu.and R.J.Dong,(1994): Freeze- Fracturing Studies on Human Erythrocyte Membranes Effected by External Pulsed Electrical Field, Acta Biol. Exp. Sinica,27:183-191 (in chinese with english abstract)
10. Yu,W.D.and Zhang,J.Z.,(1994): Microscopic Research on the Migration of Cultured Chicken Embryonic Neurons in Vitro, Acta Biophys. Sinica, 10:557-560( in chinese with english abstract )
11. Liu,Y.and Zhang,J.Z.,(1994): Dynamic Studies on Electroporation of Cell Membrane by Fluometric Method, Acta Biophys.Sinica 10:225-232 (in chinese with english abstract )
12. Kong,K.J., Liu,Y.and J.Z.Zhang,(1994): Studies on Dynamics of Electropermeabilization of Tb Loaded in Human Erythrocyte Ghosts, Acta Biophys. Sinica,10:42-50 (in chinese with English abstract)
13. Zhang, J. Z.,(1990) Application of Physical Method in Studies of Living Cells, in "Advances in Cell Biology" Vol.2 ( ed Zheng,G.-C., and Zhai, Z-H.,) High Education Press, 321-369 (in Chinese)
14. Zhang, J., Bei,S., Zhang,Y. and Zhang, L., (1988): Studies on the Proliferation of Chlamydia trachomitis. in " Cell Reformation Series 1, (ed Bei Shizhang) Science Press, Beijing 179-184, (with English abstract )
15. Dubochet, J., M. Adrian, J. J. Chang,J.C.Hono,J.Lepault, A. W. McDowall and P. Schultz,(1988):Cryoelectron Microscopy of Vitrified Specimens. Quarterly Rev.Biophys, 21:129-288(25)
16. Chang,J.J.,Zhang,G.J.,Han,X.C.and Sun.Y.T.,(1987): Relationship between Raman Spectroscopic Lines and Growth of Rhizobium japonicun. Cell Biophysics 10:205-215(26)
17. Zhang,J.,Han,X.,(1987): Structural Studies on Rhizobiumjaponicum 1132-2 by Electron Microscopy, Acta Microbiol. Sinica.21:318-32 (with english abstract)(27)
18. Dubochet,J.,Adrian,M.,Chang,J.J.,Lepault,J.and A.W.Mcdowall1987) Cryoelectron Microscopy of Vitrified Specimens in Cryotechniques in Biological EM (ed.R.A. Steinbrech and K. Zierold) Springer-Verlag press. 114-131(28)
19. Chang,J.J.,A.W.McDowall,J.Lepault,J.,R.Freeman,C.A.Wallter and J. Dubochet, (1983): Freezing,Sectioning and Observation Artifacts of Frozen Hydrated Sections for Electron Microscopy. J.Microsc.,132:109-123(33)
20. McDowall, A. W., J. J. Chang, R. Freeman, J. Lepault, C. A. Walter and J. Dubochet (1983): Electron Microscopy of Frozen Hydrated Sections of Vitrous Ice and Vitrified Biological Samplea. J. Microsc.,131:1-9(34)
21. Chang,J.J.,K.Leonard,T.Arad,T.Pitt,Y.X.Zhang and L.H.Zhang (1982): Structural Studies of the Outer Envelope of Chlamydia trachomatis by Electron Microscopy, J. Mol. Biol. 161:579-590(35)
22. Dubochet,J.,J.J.Chang,R.Freeman.,J.Lepaultand A.W.McDowall, (1982): Frozen Aqueous Suspensions.Ultramicroscopy, 10:55-62(36)
23. Chang,J.J.,J.Dubochet,A.Baudras,B.Blazy and M.Takahsh,(1981): Electron Microscopic observation of a Fiber Structure Formed by Non-specific Binding of cAMP receptor protein to DNA. J. Mol. Biol.150:435-439(37)
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Peace and Love..........John