jtprindl says....

There's really no debating that our bodies NEED zinc, iron, EPA/DHA, iodine, and B12 and function a lot better when we have them, many of which are non-existent or in irrelevant quantities in fruits and veggies.

TSM says....

N.H diet = 58% zinc, 88% iron, 114% calcium, 298% magnesium, iodine 0 – 1% (558)

non-existent?
irrelevant?

TSM chooses a nonrepresentative NH diet, which can be chosen much better to be well over 100% even for the absurdly inflated RDA's, AND YET, we have 58% zinc and 88% iron.

is there trouble in sprout land ?

is it time for a meeting of the minds?

is 58% zinc and 88% iron irrelevant or nonexistent?

irrelevant or nonexistent would be, what, 0-2%?.

and there is plenty of iodine , fatty acids, in plants, and b12 is a trivial issue.
as indicated by nutrient charts, blood tests, and no symptoms.

so which of the below is jtprindl referring to as "many of which" ?

(zinc, iron, EPA/DHA, iodine, and B12)

Do Tell !

I mean, even DR has shown blood tests on his crazy fruit diet, and the results were fine.

Does it hurt your brain to see how reality conflicts with your precious beliefs?

wait, the jtprindl answer is, DR must be supplementing (as well as all the other fruit eaters)
or, they're not really healthy (even that 70 year old couple who ran a marathon a day on their fruit diet- DEFICIENT!!!!unhealthy!)

OR, ok, they're healthy now, but just wait, they won't live very long, I JTPRINDL will live to 129.

Jtprindl runs TWO marathons a day for a year at age 129!

Read all about it! Story in the ether near you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2014 03:25PM by fresh.

<< OR, ok, they're healthy now, but just wait, they won't live very long, I JTPRINDL will live to 129. >>

go jtprindl!
129 !

all the way! woooot woooooooot!


fresh

you should strive for at least 135

"so which of the below is jtprindl referring to as "many of which" ?"

That would be EPA/DHA, B12, and iodine. There is ALA in fruits and vegetables but not in high enough quantities for the body to be able to convert them into EPA/DHA.

"I mean, even DR has shown blood tests on his crazy fruit diet, and the results were fine."

1.) Durianrider eats processed cereals and pizza's
2.) When did he show tests proving he had sufficient levels of zinc, iron, EPA/DHA, and iodine? I exclude B12 because he likely takes a B12 supplement.

"they're not really healthy (even that 70 year old couple who ran a marathon a day on their fruit diet- DEFICIENT!!!!unhealthy!)"

Since when does physical fitness indicate a healthy diet? Also, they are clearly exercising enough to be able to burn off any excess sugar.

"as indicated by nutrient charts, blood tests, and no symptoms."

I will refer you to the other thread in which you spoke the same nonsense...


This is what you said here (http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?2,243111,page=2) - "I believe you have stated this innumerable times. I don't know why you keep repeating it. And your statement is incorrect." in response to 'No deficiency =/= no symptoms'... and you were just shown that you are the one who is incorrect.

Plus, my question still applies to the thyroid. Why doesn't everyone who follows the SAD have thyroid deficiency symptoms when undoubtedly many of them are deficient in iodine?

[www.nhlbi.nih.gov] - "The signs and symptoms of iron-deficiency anemia depend on its severity. Mild to moderate iron-deficiency anemia may have no signs or symptoms."

[www.ancient-minerals.com] - "Magnesium deficiency itself is sometimes referred to as “asymptomatic” or “showing no outward signs”.

[www.health.harvard.edu] - "Vitamin B12 deficiency can be slow to develop, causing symptoms to appear gradually and intensify over time. It can also come on relatively quickly." - So you can be deficient and feel no deficiency symptoms and it can strike without warning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2014 03:56PM by jtprindl.

There's also a lot of ego behind longevity nowadays, like it's a competition and people are trying to prove their diets are healthier if they live longer than another person. Longevity is most definitely not excluded to diet. It includes a large variety of factors, including stress levels (+ do you laugh a lot, are you happy, do you engage in negative emotions; jealousy, anger, hatred, etc.), exposure to toxicity, physical activity, personal relationships, chance, etc. In my opinion, it's also not just about longevity, but being healthy and happy as you age. Not having to rely on oxygen machines, medications, walkers, other people for daily basic tasks, etc.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I mean, even DR has shown blood tests on his crazy
> fruit diet, and the results were fine.


The bike rider's blood tests were next best thing to useless because they didn't measure what he is absorbing, so they can be misleading indicators. The problems is, he promotes this idea and it can also give other people a false sense of security. What is in the blood is one thing, but what you are absorbing is an entirely different matter.

www.thesproutarian.com

<<There's also a lot of ego behind longevity nowadays, like it's a competition and people are trying to prove their diets are healthier if they live longer than another person. Longevity is most definitely not excluded to diet. It includes a large variety of factors, including stress levels (+ do you laugh a lot, are you happy, do you engage in negative emotions; jealousy, anger, hatred, etc.), exposure to toxicity, physical activity, personal relationships, chance, etc. In my opinion, it's also not just about longevity, but being healthy and happy as you age. Not having to rely on oxygen machines, medications, walkers, other people for daily basic tasks, etc.>>




Here are the choices :

live long but have mediocre diet hence mediocre health, outlive all loved ones

live long but have extraordinary health, not be happy, outlive all loved ones

live long and have extraordinary health, be happy and have all loved ones with you

suffice to say, one's health and attitude ( which determines happiness) is the thing one has most control over.... other people... we do not have control over

that is what must be most humbling... to outlive loved ones
hence i do not see too much ego or competition in this
i never knew it was a "game"
its life

maybe couples ought to be on the same longevity diet lol

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "so which of the below is jtprindl referring to as
> "many of which" ?"
>
> That would be EPA/DHA, B12, and iodine.

I have discussed b12 before - special case.

I await your ACTUAL, not hypothetical
evidence that a person on a healthy raw diet
is low in iodine and epa/dha.


There is
> ALA in fruits and vegetables but not in high
> enough quantities for the body to be able to
> convert them into EPA/DHA.

prove it.



>
> "I mean, even DR has shown blood tests on his
> crazy fruit diet, and the results were fine."
>
> 1.) Durianrider eats processed cereals and
> pizza's
> 2.) When did he show tests proving he had
> sufficient levels of zinc, iron, EPA/DHA, and
> iodine? I exclude B12 because he likely takes a
> B12 supplement.

it's in there.

>
> "they're not really healthy (even that 70 year old
> couple who ran a marathon a day on their fruit
> diet- DEFICIENT!!!!unhealthy!)"
>
> Since when does physical fitness indicate a
> healthy diet? Also, they are clearly exercising
> enough to be able to burn off any excess sugar.
>

based on the deficiencies that you say they should have,
they should not be able to do what they did.



> "as indicated by nutrient charts, blood tests, and
> no symptoms."
>
> I will refer you to the other thread in which you
> spoke the same nonsense...
>

so many blood tests wasted.
oh why did they bother with such meaningless nonsense
all these decades.

"I await your ACTUAL, not hypothetical
evidence that a person on a healthy raw diet
is low in iodine and epa/dha."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "One fourth of the vegetarians and 80% of the vegans suffer from iodine deficiency (iodine excretion value below 100 microg/l) compared to 9% in the persons on a mixed nutrition."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Studies generally agree that whole body conversion of 18:3n-3 (ALA) to 22:6n-3 (DHA) is below 5% in humans, and depends on the concentration of n-6 fatty acids and long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet."

[lpi.oregonstate.edu] - "Studies of ALA metabolism in healthy young men indicate that approximately 8% of dietary ALA is converted to EPA and 0-4% is converted to DHA"


"based on the deficiencies that you say they should have,
they should not be able to do what they did."

Prove it... there are a lot of great SAD athletes in phenomenal shape. Physical fitness is not an indicator of a healthy diet.

"it's in there."

What?

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "One fourth of the vegetarians and 80% of the vegans suffer from iodine deficiency (iodine excretion value below 100 microg/l) compared to 9% in the persons on a mixed nutrition."


FAIL

-I said raw diet.

when you find your raw diet results, answer the below with respect to your study

-"deficiency" according to whom?
- clinical symptoms?


[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Studies generally agree that whole body conversion of 18:3n-3 (ALA) to 22:6n-3 (DHA) is below 5% in humans, and depends on the concentration of n-6 fatty acids and long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet."


FAIL

- You have an inability to understand context and relevance.

"below 5%" is MEANINGLESS.

either a person has enough or not.

[lpi.oregonstate.edu] - "Studies of ALA metabolism in healthy young men indicate that approximately 8% of dietary ALA is converted to EPA and 0-4% is converted to DHA"


FAIL
- more meaningless nonsense.
-8% conversion does not preclude sufficient fatty acids.

> Prove it... there are a lot of great SAD athletes in phenomenal shape. Physical fitness is not an indicator of a healthy diet.

right, so after a decade of high fruit at 70 years old, performing that feat, while low in dha/epa, zinc, iron, b12, iodine, etc, etc, etc

give me a break.

and get back to me when you do what they did.

and by the way, where are your spectracell results ?




"it's in there."

the results for those items were in there in previous blood tests,
PRIOR to the current junk diet.

I think that first of all the function of the body is way more important than the food you eat. It has a crucial impact on absorption of minerals.
If you are hypothyroid no amount of good nutrition will make a difference.
Movement of the lymph is important for the absorption of fat soluble vitamins and the function of the adrenals is also very important.
Then you have to look at the stomach acid production and the digestion of fats(gallblader). The minerals in the food do not automatically equal the minerals in the body, regardless of diat.

"when you find your raw diet results, answer the below with respect to your study"

The majority of raw diets are vegan and vegetarian diets. Put it this way, which fruits and vegetables are you going to be obtaining iodine from?... and then back it up with the nutritional evidence.

"either a person has enough or not."

Let's use your preferred source of the WHO which recommends a daily EPA/DHA intake of 300 to 500 mg - [www.mayoclinic.org] - At 4% conversion of ALA to DHA, eating 2000 mg (2g) would only put you at 80 mg. Double that at 4000 mg (4g) would still leave you way behind at 160 mg. Even 6000 mg (6g) only gives you 240 mg of DHA. Finally, at 8 grams per day of ALA, you will get 320 mg of DHA. Please tell me how you are going to get anywhere near six, let alone eight grams of ALA per day on a diet of mostly fruit.

"and get back to me when you do what they did."

Once again, physical fitness does not indicate a healthy diet. There are a lot of Olympic athletes following the SAD.

"the results for those items were in there in previous blood tests,
PRIOR to the current junk diet."

Show the tests then.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2014 12:56PM by jtprindl.

<<<At 4% conversion of ALA to DHA>>>

The Conversion Rate depends on the Omega-3/Omega-6 Ratio, so every study is going to come up with different Conversion Rates. More realistic Conversion Rates for Raw Vegans might be more along the lines of 16 to 36% and as long as we have a good Omega-3/Omega-6 Ratio and include ~2 pounds of Leafy Greens every day, DHA should NOT be a problem.

Here’s what Udo has to say about the Conversion Rates…

A few writers still claim that conversion is less than 5%, but more and more studies report much higher rates of conversion.

[www.udoerasmus.com]
Humans Turn ALA (Udo Oil) to EPA/DHA (Fish Oil)
* With a note on Cooking Oils * - by Udo Erasmus

Introduction

Proponents of fish oils have claimed for decades that the body cannot convert the basic omega-3 essential fatty acid, ALA, into the omega-3 derivatives, EPA and DHA, found in fish oils. Is this true? If so, what is the evidence? When questioned, many fish oil promoters modify themselves and say that too little conversion takes place. When pushed further on the issue, they add "in some people", and pushed even further, they'll reluctantly admit that only "a small percentage of the population may not be able to adequately convert".

The question of omega-3 conversion is important, because EPA is needed to make health-protecting 'eicosanoid' hormones that keep cell metabolism on an even keel, and DHA is required for brain development, brain function, vision, and sperm formation, and has heart-protective and anti-inflammatory functions as well. If the body converts ALA into fish oil omega-3, then fish or its oil is not required in the diet. If the body cannot convert, then we must all look to fatty fish or fish oils (ugh!) for these important omega-3 derivatives.

Untrue Claims

The claim that the body cannot convert ALA to EPA and DHA was not true 20 years ago, and is not true today. This claim does, however, serve to protect the fish oil market. You see, if people knew that the body converts the plant omega-3, ALA, to the long-chain omega-3 derivatives found in fish, they would stop using rancid, contaminated, or partially damaged fish oils and would use omega-3 rich vegetable oils made with health in mind instead.

The truth is that most people do not get enough ALA in their diet.

Our omega-3 intake is only 1/6th of the amount eaten by people 150 years ago, and intake was far from optimal in 1850. Without sufficient starting material, not much conversion can take place. Zero ALA gets you zero conversion to EPA and DHA. Lots of ALA gets you lots of conversion. Even today, 95 to 99% of the population gets too little omega-3 in their diet, making conversion inadequate in the majority of the population. Instead of forcing them to take fish oils, shouldn't we encourage them to increase their intake of ALA?

ALA Re-Introduction to the Diet Changes the Story

…

Research Hot off the Press

All three of these questions were answered in October 2002, by two studies published in the British Journal of Nutrition (BJN) which measured the conversion of alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), the short chain omega-3 essential fatty acid, into the long chain omega-3 derivatives EPA, DPA, and DHA. The first study1, carried out with six women, showed that these women converted an average of 36% of the ALA they were given into long chain omega-3 derivatives (21% EPA, 6%DPA, 9%DHA).

The second study2, done with six men, showed that the men converted an average of 16% of the ALA they received into long-chain omega-3 derivatives (8%EPA, 8%DPA). In this study, the men produced no DHA. However, another study showed that men convert ALA to DHA as well3.

Udo's Comment: Women must be able to convert enough ALA to long chain omega-3 to feed two brains, theirs and that of the child growing within them. Men have only one brain to feed, and therefore require less conversion to DHA than women do.

Estrogen Effect

…

Rate of Conversion

How much conversion to long chain omega-3 derivatives (EPA + DHA) can a woman accomplish from the ALA in Udo's Choice Oil Blend? A 100-pound woman taking the recommended 2 tablespoons of Udo's Oil per day (1 tablespoon/50 pounds of body weight per day) will get about 14grams (14,000mg) of ALA. At the 36% conversion rate found in the study with young women, 14,000mg of ALA produces a total of 5,040mg of long chain omega-3 (2,940mg of EPA, 840mg of DPA, and 1,260mg of DHA). 36% conversion of the oil blend produces the equivalent of about 17 large (1,000mg) capsules of fish oil (each containing 300mg of EPA + DHA), which is close to twice as much as the highest recommended therapeutic dose of fish oil.

Using rate of conversion measured in the study with men, how much ALA is converted? A 150-pound man converting 16% of the recommended 3 tablespoons/day (again, 1 tablespoon/50 pounds of body weight/day of Udo's Choice Oil Blend) ends up with 3,360mg of long chain omega-3 (EPA + DPA), the equivalent of 11 large capsules of fish oil. This again is more than the highest recommended therapeutic dose of fish oil. The fact that no DHA was produced in the study with men prompted the researchers to speculate that men may need to eat fish or take fish oil supplements, but other studies find that men do make DHA.

Practical Conversion Confirmation

The conversion numbers given above confirm what health practitioners see in their practice. Patients readily switch from fish oils to Udo's Oil Blend because they prefer its taste. Used at the optimum dose of one tablespoon/50 pounds of body weight/day, practitioners tell us that the oil blend gives the same kinds but also a wider range of benefits than fish oils. These benefits include lower cardiovascular risk, smoother skin, higher energy levels, stamina, performance and recovery, better insulin sensitivity, lowered cancer risk, lowered inflammation, greater heat production, and improved mood, learning, IQ and calmness, and better ability to handle stress.

Conversion Safety and Control

…

Fish Oil Contamination

…

Udo's Oil Blend Compared to Cooking Oils

…

Toxic Molecules

…

Research Conversion Confirmation

Every year, more research confirms that omega-3 conversion takes place effectively, provided that enough ALA is present in the diet and interfering factors are avoided. One of the main factors that interferes with omega-3 conversion is too much omega-6 in the diet, which is the case in the diets commonly eaten by people living in developed nations. Omega-6 slows down the conversion of omega-3.

While researchers still disagree on the exact rate of conversion (because the rate is affected by many nutritional and hormonal factors) and the optimum omega-3/omega-6 ratio, they agree that substantial conversion does take place. Here are some of their estimates (the first three estimates below were given to Udo by Sam Graci from discussions Sam said he had with Holub, Sears, and Schmidt):

• Dr. Bruce Holub (U. of Guelph): 10-15%;
• Dr. Barry Sears (The Zone Diet): up to 18%;
• Dr. Michael Schmidt (Smart Fats): 10%;
• Dr. EA Emken et al3 (research): 17%;
• Dr. GC Burdge et al1,2 (research): 16%-men; 36%-women;
• Dr. SM Innis7 (research): infants convert;
• Dr. JT Brenna8 (research): all ages convert;
• VP Carnielli et al9; C Billeaud et al10 'prematures' convert;

A few writers still claim that conversion is less than 5%, but more and more studies report much higher rates of conversion.

The fact of conversion is just common sense. The brains, eyes, and nervous systems of all animals, from insects up are rich in long chain omega-3s. Many of these animals are vegetarian, including rabbits, horses, and gorillas. They must be converting the basic omega-3 in their own body, because their foods supply provides only ALA, the basic omega-3. The long-chain omega-3 are important, so nature equipped creatures to make what they need, and to turn up production if long-chain omega-3 are not present in the diet.

Optimum omega-3/omega-6 Ratio and Optimum Conversion

Low conversion results from too little ALA intake, a whopping high (interfering) omega-6 intake, lack of the vitamins (B3, B6, C) and minerals (zinc, magnesium) necessary for conversion, other nutritional factors, and toxic influences. There is evidence that high carbohydrate diets slow down conversion, and diets higher in proteins enhance conversion. The ratio of twice more omega-3 than omega-6 found in Udo's Choice Oil blend ensures effective omega-3 conversion. Too high a ratio of omega-3 to omega-6, such as 3.5 or 4 to 1 found in flax and flax oil, can lead to omega-6 deficiency, with symptoms of deterioration that can harm all cells, tissues, glands, and organs.

Too low a ratio, such as 1 to 10 (the average found in Western diets) can lead to symptoms of omega-3 deficiency. Omega-3 deficiency increases the risk of increasing cardiovascular, immune, autoimmune, diabetic, and inflammatory disease, and leads to sub-optimal intelligence, concentration, mood, and performance. In the two conversion studies published in the BNJ, the diet contained only 1/7th as much omega-3 as omega-6. A better ratio would consist of more omega-3 and less omega-6. Udo's Choice Oil Blend contains an optimum ratio of 2 times more omega-3 than omega-6. Why is this important?

The higher the omega-6 intake, the slower is omega-3 conversion3. The more omega-3 and the less omega-6, the faster the conversion of ALA to long chain omega-3 (EPA + DHA) will be. But conversion takes place only as long as the body needs more EPA + DHA, and until optimum content has been achieved.

Genetic Variation

…

APPENDIX I: Abbreviations, & basic facts about 'essential' fats

…

APPENDIX II - References

…
[www.udoerasmus.com]

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2014 06:15PM by John Rose.

"More realistic Conversion Rates for Raw Vegans might be more along the lines of 16 to 36% and as long as we have a good Omega-3/Omega-6 Ratio and include ~2 pounds of Leafy Greens every day, DHA should NOT be a problem."

Do you have a link for this study?


I'm not saying you cannot get sufficient omega-3's on a raw plant-based diet, I'm saying it would be extremely difficult to do on a predominantly fruitarian diet and "There is evidence that high carbohydrate diets slow down conversion" would further support that. Fruitarian and N.H. diets are also low in zinc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2014 07:03PM by jtprindl.

<<<Do you have a link for this study?>>>

According to Udo's article, Dr. GC Burdge et al1,2 (research): 16%-men; 36%-women.

Have you read the Bible on Fats by Udo Erasmus called "Fats that Heal and Fats that Kill"?


What is a NH Diet?

"After 20 years of NH, I will have to ask you to explain and tell me exactly what are the principles of NH? Do you mean TC's principles, or Sheltons, Tilden, ANHS, Vetrano, Bidwell, etc., ?? Check out the history. NH and NH professionals have never had a consensus opinion on this. That’s why there are so many "splits". And have been many differences from day one. Just follow the posts and the lists today! smiling smiley Remember the days of raw cheese, and raw milk for all? Or how about the days of 4oz of nuts each and every day for all." -Jeff N.

Common Errors of Natural Hygienists...
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Peace and Love..........John

"According to Udo's article, Dr. GC Burdge et al1,2 (research): 16%-men; 36%-women."

That's an article from a company selling ALA and they don't provide any details of the study or even proof of existence. Multiple studies have shown very poor ALA to DHA conversion rates and most raw diets being low in zinc would only exacerbate the problem.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "The use of ALA labelled with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated fat conversion to long-chain metabolites is approximately 6% for EPA and 3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in n-6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40 to 50%. It is thus reasonable to observe an n-6/n-3 PUFA ratio not exceeding 4-6. Restricted conversion to DHA may be critical since evidence has been increasing that this long-chain metabolite has an autonomous function, e.g. in the brain, retina and spermatozoa where it is the most prominent fatty acid."

[lpi.oregonstate.edu] - "The capacity for conversion of ALA to DHA is higher in women than men. Studies of ALA metabolism in healthy young men indicate that approximately 8% of dietary ALA is converted to EPA and 0-4% is converted to DHA"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Some of the confusion arises because although mammals have the necessary enzymes to make the long-chain PUFA from the parent PUFA, in vivo studies in humans show that asymptotically equal to 5% of ALA is converted to EPA and <0.5% of ALA is converted to DHA"



My view of a N.H. diet is a raw diet that is very high in fruit and very low in fat.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2014 08:37PM by jtprindl.

Hey jt,

Let’s try this once again…

#1) Have you read the Bible on Fats by Udo Erasmus called "Fats that Heal and Fats that Kill"?

#2) What is a NH Diet?

Here’s one more…

#3) Have you read "Trust Us We're Experts!" by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber?

Peace and Love..........John

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey jt,
>
> Let’s try this once again…
>
> #1) Have you read the Bible on Fats by Udo Erasmus
> called "Fats that Heal and Fats that Kill"?
>
> #2) What is a NH Diet?
>
> Here’s one more…
>
> #3) Have you read "Trust Us We're Experts!" by
> Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber?
>
> Peace and Love..........John


I just told you what my view of a Natural Hygiene diet was and no I haven't read those books. The fact that I have not read those books is irrelevant and you are not establishing or proving any kind of point.

<<<I just told you what my view of a Natural Hygiene diet>>>

You’ve been expressing your views of a Natural Hygiene Diet for some time now, but you have NEVER shared what you think a Natural Hygiene Diet is and that’s because you DON’T KNOW what a Natural Hygiene Diet is. That’s why I have asked you what you think a Natural Hygiene Diet is because you, once again, DON’T KNOW what a Natural Hygiene Diet is nor do you even understand their Principles.

After actually studying Natural Hygiene for over 20 years, this is what Jeff N. had to say about it…

"After 20 years of NH, I will have to ask you to explain and tell me exactly what are the principles of NH? Do you mean TC's principles, or Sheltons, Tilden, ANHS, Vetrano, Bidwell, etc., ?? Check out the history. NH and NH professionals have never had a consensus opinion on this. That’s why there are so many "splits". And have been many differences from day one. Just follow the posts and the lists today! smiling smiley Remember the days of raw cheese, and raw milk for all? Or how about the days of 4oz of nuts each and every day for all."

So tell me jt, are you NOT going to learn anything in the next 20 years?

Do you think you know more about NH than Jeff N.?

<<<and no I haven't read those books. The fact that I have not read those books is irrelevant and you are not establishing or proving any kind of point.>>>

WRONG!!!

If you had actually read "Fats that Heal and Fats that Kill" by Udo Erasmus, you would realize just how little you know about this subject matter and on top of that, you want to argue with the man who wrote the BIBLE on FATS!!!

And then, if you had actually read "Trust Us We're Experts!" by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber, you would realize how FOOLISH you are when it comes to relying on Scientific Studies.

For those with an OPEN MIND, here are some of my notes from "Trust Us We're Experts!"…

“We are in the realm of the illogical, the emotional, and we must respond with the tools that we have for managing the emotional aspects of the human psyche.” “Trust Us, We’re Experts!” p. 3

“The experts who work behind the scenes prefer to stay there, because invisibility is necessary to achieve their illusion. ‘Guys in my business hate becoming public figures...when we don’t control it,’ says former Reagan aide Edward Rollins, now a vice president at Edelman. Today’s wizards of spin are rather like the Wizard of Oz. They have perfected the craft of speaking in a booming, magisterial voice that inspires admiration and awe, but they fear being unmasked for what they really are---showmen who have learned to use hidden wires, smoke, and mirrors to make little men and little ideas seem grand and convincing. There is a reason that the Wizard begged Dorothy to “pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.” But she had to look, and understand the contrivance behind his magic, before she could find her way back home.” p. 30

“The idea that all scientific experiments are replicated to keep the process honest is also something of a myth. In reality, the number of findings from one scientist that get checked by others is quite small. Most scientists are too busy, research funds are too limited, and the pressure to produce new work is too great for this type of review to occur very often. What occurs instead is a system of “peer review,” in which panels of experts are convened to pass judgment on the work of other researchers. Peer review is used mainly in two situations: during the grant approval process to decide which research should get funding, and after the research has been completed to determine whether the results should be accepted for publication in a scientific journal.

Like the myth of the scientific method, peer review is also a fairly new phenomenon. ...As government support for science increased, it became necessary to develop a formal system for deciding which projects should receive funding.

In some ways, the system of peer review functions like the antithesis of the scientific method described above. Whereas the scientific method assumes that “experiment is supreme” and purports to eliminate bias, peer review deliberately imposes the bias of peer reviewers on the scientific process, both before and after experiments are conducted. ...peer review can also institutionalize conflicts of interest and a certain amount of dogmatism.” "Trust Us We're Experts!" p. 198

“’The problem with peer review is that we have good evidence on its deficiencies and poor evidence on its benefits,’ the British Medical Journal observed in 1997. ‘We know that it is expensive, slow, prone to bias, open to abuse, possibly anti-innovatory, and unable to detect fraud. We also know that the published papers that emerge from the process are often grossly deficient.’

In theory, the process of peer review offers protection against scientific errors and bias. In reality, it has proven incapable of filtering out the influence of government and corporate funders, whose biases often affect research outcomes.” "Trust Us We're Experts!" p. 199

Peace and Love..........John

"WRONG!!!

If you had actually read "Fats that Heal and Fats that Kill" by Udo Erasmus, you would realize just how little you know about this subject matter and on top of that, you want to argue with the man who wrote the BIBLE on FATS!!!"

John, you seem to think you know everything and completely disregard factual studies because you are searching for what you want to read to soothe your own psyche. Essentially everything you post is about some sort of conspiracy and anything that goes against your beliefs is because of some hidden agenda. You literally cherry pick what you want to believe so you don't experience cognitive dissonance. Please provide evidence for your claims.


"You’ve been expressing your views of a Natural Hygiene Diet for some time now, but you have NEVER shared what you think a Natural Hygiene Diet is and that’s because you DON’T KNOW what a Natural Hygiene Diet is. That’s why I have asked you what you think a Natural Hygiene Diet is because you, once again, DON’T KNOW what a Natural Hygiene Diet is nor do you even understand their Principles."

What I do know is that the leading proponents of the Natural Hygiene diet, T.C. Fry and Herbert Shelton, both died and were diseased at relatively young ages. Shelton died at age 89 with Parkinson's disease and Fry died at 70 of heart failure. Why don't you enlighten everyone and tell us all about the Natural Hygiene diet...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2014 10:13PM by jtprindl.

Hey jt,

Based on your views of NH, I’m willing to bet that you have NEVER even read 1 book on NH!!!

<<<Why don't you enlighten everyone and tell us all about the Natural Hygiene diet...>>>

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

I started this thread specifically for you and tsm because neither one of y’all know anything about Natural Hygiene and yet, both of y’all are full of criticisms.

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." -Albert Einstein

Peace and Love..........John

"I started this thread specifically for you and tsm because neither one of y’all know anything about Natural Hygiene and yet, both of y’all are full of criticisms."

I only criticize the DIET aspect of Natural Hygiene.

In regards to ALA, please provide evidence for your claims. Where is the detailed research/studies for everyone to see?

"Based on your views of NH, I’m willing to bet that you have NEVER even read 1 book on NH!!!"

I've read quite a bit of "Your Natural Diet: Alive Raw Foods" by T.C. Fry and David Klein, which essentially worships fruit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2014 10:54PM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "when you find your raw diet results, answer the
> below with respect to your study"
>
> The majority of raw diets are vegan and vegetarian
> diets. Put it this way, which fruits and
> vegetables are you going to be obtaining iodine
> from?... and then back it up with the nutritional
> evidence.
>

I have no claim to make here other than that based on symptoms and tests I am fine .

You are the one who is making the claim about iodine
ABSENT EVIDENCE.




> "either a person has enough or not."
>
> Let's use your preferred source of the WHO which
> recommends a daily EPA/DHA intake of 300 to 500 mg
> -
> [www.mayoclinic.org]-
> 3-fatty-acids-fish-oil-alpha-linolenic-acid/dosing
> /hrb-20059372 - At 4% conversion of ALA to DHA,
> eating 2000 mg (2g) would only put you at 80 mg.
> Double that at 4000 mg (4g) would still leave you
> way behind at 160 mg. Even 6000 mg (6g) only gives
> you 240 mg of DHA. Finally, at 8 grams per day of
> ALA, you will get 320 mg of DHA. Please tell me
> how you are going to get anywhere near six, let
> alone eight grams of ALA per day on a diet of
> mostly fruit.
>

Again, you are making a claim about fatty acids.
YOU no idea of what you're talking about, other
than simply making a blanket statement based upon conversion rates,
which is meaningless, as the acceptable conversion rate
could be 1%, or 5%, or 20%, based upon intake and other factors.





>athletes following the SAD

this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
maybe those athletes on the SAD are properly nourished, maybe they are not, I have no idea, and neither do you.

athletic performance is one indicator of health, especially the long distance feat noted.


>
> Show the tests then.

ah, you don't believe in tests, right?

<<<Where is the detailed research/studies for everyone to see?>>>

Only FOOLS rely on Scientific Proof!!!

Read "Trust Us We're Experts!" by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber!!!

Remember, EVERYONE WHO ONLY CONVERTS 5% OR LESS HAS A BAD OMEGA-3/OMEGA-6 RATIO!!!

<<<I only criticize the DIET aspect of Natural Hygiene. …I've read quite a bit of "Your Natural Diet: Alive Raw Foods" by T.C. Fry and David Klein, which essentially worships fruit.>>>

So according to you, T.C. Fry and David Klein’s INTERPRETATION of NH represent NH and this is the FLAW in your Logic!

Here is the very first part of that Post I referenced to above [ [www.rawfoodsupport.com] ] and based on your comments, it doesn’t look like you even read it.

[naturalhygienesociety.org]
Natural Hygiene is a way of approaching life and living. It is a way of discovering the truth in all things related to our relationship with the world, nature and other life on this planet. It is not a set of practices etched in stone for all times. Natural Hygiene is a tool...a realization that man, like all animals, is governed by nature and nature's laws. It is the goal of Natural Hygiene to discover what those laws are and to apply them appropriately to our lives. When we read of a practice that a Natural Hygienist has come up with based upon their interpretation of natural law as applied to human beings it is just that… their interpretation.

The most valuable contribution of Hygienic Pioneers such as Drs. Tilden and Shelton were not their specific ideas on fasting, diet, exercise, or any other specific aspect of Hygienic Living…rather it was the processes they used at arriving at their conclusions and their willingness to be proven wrong if they were mistaken. In other words their greatest contribution was in helping us learn how to reason and think rather than merely what to think.
[naturalhygienesociety.org]

Peace and Love..........John

"I have no claim to make here other than that based on symptoms and tests I am fine."

And as you have been shown numerous times... no symptoms =/= no deficiency. Yes, I am claiming that a predominantly fruitarian diet (and most raw food diets) are very low in iodine. Raw food diets are vegan and vegetarian diets, which are linked to low levels of iodine as I already posted. It's a simple question, where are you getting sufficient iodine from?

"which is meaningless, as the acceptable conversion rate
could be 1%, or 5%, or 20%, based upon intake and other factors"

Wow.....

Ok, if a predominantly fruit based diet only provides ALA, and it has been shown in multiple studies that conversion rates of ALA to DHA is around 5%, then people following this diet would have to eat enormous amounts of food each and every day to obtain enough DHA. Three different studies coming to the same conclusion isn't meaningless.

"athletic performance is one indicator of health, especially the long distance feat noted."

Yeah, one of many, meaning just because they have good physical fitness doesn't mean other areas of their health aren't suffering.

"ah, you don't believe in tests, right?"

Show the tests.


There's quite a common theme here.... fresh and JR avoiding posting any type of evidence regarding their claims but expect me to provide it (which I have).

"Only FOOLS rely on Scientific Proof!!!"

It's far better than relying on cherry-picked information and quotes by one person who cannot substantiate their claims.

"Remember, EVERYONE WHO ONLY CONVERTS 5% OR LESS HAS A BAD OMEGA-3/OMEGA-6 RATIO!!!"

Based on what evidence?

"So according to you, T.C. Fry and David Klein’s INTERPRETATION of NH represent NH and this is the FLAW in your Logic!"

Once again, I only criticize the DIET portion (nutritionally inadequate) of Natural Hygiene. That combined with the fact that the leading pioneers for N.H. died young and diseased.

<<<There's quite a common theme here.... fresh and JR avoiding posting any type of evidence regarding their claims but expect me to provide it (which I have).>>>

Obviously, you did not read Udo’s article! Udo wrote the Bible on Fats and if you want to learn more about Fats, Udo's book is a good place to start!

<<<It's far better than relying on cherry-picked information and quotes by one person who cannot substantiate their claims.>>>

That’s a Straw Man Argument as I NEVER cherry-pick information.

As far as claiming that Udo does not substantiate his claims, if you would have read Udo's article in my post above, you would have noticed this section...

APPENDIX II - References

…

I used ... to shorten the article, but if you were paying attention and really wanted to investigate what Udo had to say, you could have gone to the link I provided and found this...

[www.udoerasmus.com]
APPENDIX II - References

1British Journal of Nutrition 2002 Oct;88(4):411-20. Conversion of alpha-linolenic acid to eicosapentaenoic, docosapenta-enoic and docosahexaenoic acids in young women. Burdge GC, Wootton SA. Institute of Human Nutrition, University of Southampton, Southampton, UK. g.c.burdge@soton.ac.uk

Estimated net fractional ALA inter-conversion was EPA 21%, DPA 6% and DHA 9%. (Udo's Comment: That is a superb conversion rate!) Approximately 22% of administered [13C]ALA was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h of the study. (Udo's Comment: That means that women burned 22% of the ALA for energy.) Comparison with previous studies suggests that women may possess a greater capacity for ALA conversion than men. (Udo's Comment: Does that mean that women are smarter than men? Smart men have always known that!) Such metabolic capacity may be important for meeting the demands of the fetus and neonate for DHA during pregnancy and lactation. (Udo's Comment: In the paper, the authors suggest that estrogen may increase conversion of ALA to long chain omega-3.) Differences in DHA status between women both in the non-pregnant state and in pregnancy may reflect variations in metabolic capacity for DHA synthesis. (Udo's Comment: Rate of conversion is also affected by omega-3/omega-6 ratio, and by many nutritional and hormonal factors.)

2British Journal of Nutrition 2002 Oct;88(4):355-63 Eicosapentaenoic and docosapentaenoic acids are the principal products of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in young men*. Burdge GC, Jones AE, Wootton SA. Institute of Human Nutrition, Level C, West Wing, Southampton General Hospital, Tremona Road, Southampton, SO16 6YD, UK. gcb@soton.ac.uk

Approximately 33% of administered [13C]ALA was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h. (Udo's Comment: That means that the men burned more (33%) ALA for energy than the women (22%).) The time scale of conversion of [13C]ALA to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) suggested that the liver was the principal site of ALA desaturation and elongation, although there was some indication of EPA and DPA synthesis by enterocytes. There was no apparent 13C enrichment of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) in plasma PC, TAG or non-esterified fatty acids at any time point measured up to 21 d. This pattern of 13C omega-3 fatty acid labelling suggests inhibition or restriction of DHA synthesis downstream of DPA. (Udo's Comment: Other researchers find that conversion to DHA does take place in humans. The reason for inhibition in this study was not identified.) Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALA to DHA was either very low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals. (Udo's Comment: That conclusion is doubtful. Other studies show DHA production from ALA in men. Also, many other factors affect conversion rate. For instance, if the brain has enough DHA, conversion is unnecessary and is shut down by feedback, until DHA is used up and more DHA needs to be made to replenish brain DHA supply.)

3Emken EA et al Dietary linoleic acid influences desaturation and acylation of deuterium-labelled linoleic and linolenic acids in young adult males. Biochimica et Biophysica Acta 1213, 277-88. 4Arnesen H omega-3 fatty acids and revascularization procedures. Lipids. 2001;36 Suppl103-6. Review.

5Food Safety Authority of Ireland. Measurement of persistent organic pollutants in 15 commercial fish oils. 2002. Central Science Labs in the UK carried out the tests for PCBs, PAHs, and dioxins. The same laboratory carried out the same test on Udo's Choice Oil Blend.

6Hui YH (ed) Bailey's Industrial Oil and Fat Products, Fifth Edition. Wiley Interscience, John Wiley and Sons, New York, NY. 1996.

7Innis SM, Sprecher H, Hachey D, Edmond J, Anderson RE. Neonatal polyunsaturated fatty acid metabolism. Lipids. 1999 Feb;34(2):139-49. Review.

8Brenna JT. Efficiency of conversion of alpha-linolenic acid to long chain omega-3 fatty acids in man. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2002 Mar;5(2):127-32.

9Billeaud C, Bougle D, Sarda P, Combe N, Mazette S, Babin F, Entressangles B, Descomps B, Nouvelot A, Mendy F. Effects of preterm infant formula supplementation with alpha-linolenic acid with a linoleate/alpha-linolenate ratio of 6: a multicentric study. Eur J Clin Nutr. 1997 Aug;51(8):520-6.

10Carnielli VP, Wattimena DJ, Luijendijk IH, Boerlage A, Degenhart HJ, Sauer PJ. The very low birth weight premature infant is capable of synthesizing arachidonic and docosahexaenoic acids from linoleic and linolenic acids. Pediatr Res. 1996 Jul;40(1):169-74.
[www.udoerasmus.com]

JR wrote...

"Remember, EVERYONE WHO ONLY CONVERTS 5% OR LESS HAS A BAD OMEGA-3/OMEGA-6 RATIO!!!"

jt wrote...

"Based on what evidence?"

It's common knowledge. Yes, there are other factors, but if you have a BAD OMEGA-3/OMEGA-6 RATIO, you also have a Conversion Problem!!!

JR wrote...

"So according to you, T.C. Fry and David Klein’s INTERPRETATION of NH represent NH and this is the FLAW in your Logic!"

jt wrote...

"Once again, I only criticize the DIET portion (nutritionally inadequate) of Natural Hygiene."

Once again, you are criticizing T.C. Fry and David Klein’s INTERPRETATION of the NH Diet!!!

<<<That combined with the fact that the leading pioneers for N.H. died young and diseased.>>>

Yes, Fry died of a B12 Deficiency and Shelton died suffered from a DHA Deficiency, but that has NOTHING to do with NH - it had to do with Fry and Shelton's INTERPRETATION of the NH Diet!!!

Once again, “When we read of a practice that a Natural Hygienist has come up with based upon their interpretation of natural law as applied to human beings it is just that… their interpretation.”

On a final note, do yourself a favor and take a glance at Udo’s book - I guarantee you that you will be impressed!

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2014 01:45AM by John Rose.

conversion rate increased in non fish eaters


"despite having lower intakes, BLOOD LEVELS were the same."


[www.nutraingredients-usa.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2014 02:12AM by fresh.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> conversion rate increased in non fish eaters
>
>
> "despite having lower intakes, BLOOD LEVELS were
> the same."
>
>
> [www.nutraingredients-usa.com]
> -3-ALA-intakes-enough-for-EPA-DPA-levels-for-non-f
> ish-eaters


I'm well aware of this study and it says nothing I disagree with. I have been referring to predominantly fruitarian diets, not vegan diets in regards to DHA. Especially when you consider the low zinc, further hindering conversion rates.


"Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALA to DHA was either very low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals. (Udo's Comment: That conclusion is doubtful. Other studies show DHA production from ALA in men. Also, many other factors affect conversion rate. For instance, if the brain has enough DHA, conversion is unnecessary and is shut down by feedback, until DHA is used up and more DHA needs to be made to replenish brain DHA supply.)"

Where are the "other studies" showing DHA production from ALA in men? Where is the evidence that DHA conversion is shut down until used up and more DHA needs to be made? I don't disagree with the first study as it has been shown that women have much higher conversion rates than men.

"Once again, you are criticizing T.C. Fry and David Klein’s INTERPRETATION of the NH Diet!!!"

No, I'm criticizing the full spectrum nutrition on most N.H. diets.

"It's common knowledge."

If it's common knowledge, you should have readily available evidence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2014 02:27AM by jtprindl.

>I'm well aware of this study and it says nothing I disagree with. I have been referring to predominantly fruitarian diets, not vegan diets in regards to DHA.

and there is no difference necessarily between those diets with respect to fatty acid intake and conversion.



> Especially when you consider the low zinc, further hindering conversion rates.

zinc intake is not low on a proper fruit/veg based diet, as has been shown by tsm, and myself.

Also the 67% figure cited for the rda's being sufficient (indicating unnecessary safety factors added in ) and by you not having shown anything with respect to reality.


Finally, I have seen rates quoted as 15% conversion which is exactly your example of 300/2000mg

And NO symptoms for this fruit eater.

Done...

But I know you like to see problems where none exist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2014 02:43AM by fresh.

"and there is no difference necessarily between those diets with respect to fatty acid intake."

Higher intakes of nuts and seeds, such as hemp/chia/flax seeds and walnuts, will result in higher omega-3 levels.

"zinc intake is not low on a proper fruit/veg based diet, as has been shown by tsm, and myself, by the 67% figure cited for the rda's being sufficient (indicating unnecessary safety factors added in ) and by you not having shown anything with respect to reality."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Vegetarians had statistically significant lower levels of plasma Zn and Cu than nonvegetarians, which may be the result of lower bioavailability of Zn and Cu from this type of diet. No differences in plasma Mg levels were found between vegetarians and nonvegetarians. Se status, as expressed by plasma and erythrocyte concentrations and plasma and erythrocyte glutathione peroxidase activities (GPx), was significantly lower in vegetarians when compared to nonvegetarians."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "These biochemical values show that, according to the references, selenium blood levels are adequate and zinc concentration in erythrocytes is deficient in the studied population"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Populations that habitually consume vegetarian diets have low zinc intakes and status."

"Finally, I have seen rates quoted as 15% conversion which is exactly your example of 300/2000mg"

Please link the study.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2014 02:44AM by jtprindl.