[www.sciencebasedmedicine.org]

Wow, Fresh, thanks so much for finding this article. I never would have found it without you.

One of the reasons I like this forum is to communicate with such different minds. I am writing a book and it really helps to hear from people with opposite views.

I would have to spend all night correcting this article you posted, Fresh, which is so chock full of mistakes, so I can't respond to the mistakes. But it helps me to understand the level of ignorance and misinformation out there.

[www.dcscience.net]

Another fabulous find, Fresh. Again, thank you so much, because I never would have read this without you.

I have teachers that have revolutionized pain therapy with acupuncture, so these articles you have posted are just ignorant, sorry to say.

But now I understand why one of my main teachers has told us to stop talking about energy and meridians and just stick to explaining acupuncture through understood science. NOw I totally get it. He didn't cite these kinds of papers before and no one ever showed me these papers.

First of all, there are some lame acupuncturists and some really good ones.
Acupuncture does work, but it's not a miracle. Let's take a newly torn muscle. I can take away the intense pain, but the person can't just go ahead and use the muscle. They can't extend beyond the safe range of motion or they can retear or reinjure. SO, while the muscle is healing, they can have much less pain, but it's not going to miraculously stitch the muscle. But it can speed up the healing time.

Thanks for sparing me anymore embarrassment by sharing anything more about myself related to anything considered alternative by American allopathic thinkers. Fresh, you are like the brave White one that finally tells the blind black man in white segregated America that he is really black and not one of them. It's time I bid you all Adieu.

that's too bad. i enjoy your posts.

thank you for correcting me on the money issue previously.

it seems that it's an identity thing instead, which can be more powerful and destructive of truth and objectivity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 03:45AM by fresh.

The new challenge was initiated by Zhang Gongyao, a scholar who claims to have devoted more than 30 years in study to the subject. In August, Zhang put forth a petition on his blog to solicit signatures to urge the government to drop Chinese medicine once and for all from the national health care system, allowing only the practice of Western medicine.

He argues that Western medical science has clear-cut theories and definite cause-and-effect relationships verified through scientific tests and experiments, while traditional Chinese medicine is empirically based, conceptually vague, unsafe and unreliable.

Zhang also doubts the effectiveness of diagnosis through "feeling the wrist pulse" of the patient as practiced in traditional Chinese medicine. He admitted that there are indeed cases where cures via traditional Chinese medicine are successful, but he considers them to be fortuitous, with indeterminate, uncertain effects.

He claimed that with his 33-year study he felt strongly that Chinese medicine was incapable of solving problems in clinical diagnosis. "Those graduated from the so-called traditional Chinese medical universities have in fact learned very little because TCM is not itself a science and has no experimental backup," Zhang wrote.

"So, instead of wasting our limited resources in promoting traditional Chinese medicine, it is better to concentrate on the development of Western medicine to strengthen our national health and medical care system and leave Chinese medicine to the non-government-aided folk practice ... Our country cannot afford to linger for long, and we propose the taking away action to be completed within five years from now."

[www.atimes.com]

Fresh wrote:
it seems that it's an identity thing instead, which can be more powerful and destructive of truth and objectivity.

Tai:
You want to pigeon hole me, but you can't. You do not know what I identify as. I have a license to perform acupuncture, and that is what I do professionally, but that is not how I identify myself. I am certified colon hydrotherapist too, but I don't go around introducing myself that way.

You know why I can't participate anymore here? Because when I see someone in pain, I want to help. It's not because of some ego trip. It's called compassion. But I have been getting a few hints lately that I don't belong here. I don't fit the criteria.

Fresh, by the way, not that you care, some human beings who roam this planet, have more than 5 senses and this was the case for SHen Nong, an ancient Chinese herbalist who gathered data on Chinese herbs, as well as Hua Tuo, Li Shi ZHen, Bian Que and others. Your criteria of taste and chewability are extremely limited. In the case of Chinese medicine, there has been a devolution. Take the meditation and spiritual practices and moral disciplines away from the practitioners, and what you get are bumbling humans with five senses. THe basis of CHinese medicine came from the highly evolved Chinese at the time.

Only spiritual cultivators can truly perceive the meridians, can truly know they are real, can truly feel them. For example, the dai mai. How is western science going to explain that through nerves and blood vessels? BUt I know it's real because I can feel it. But trust me, Fresh, you have opened my eyes. I won't be speaking woo woo anymore and just play dumb and try to give some lame nerve explanation to make the skeptics happy.

But using only the five senses, still TCM has come a long way. My pulse teacher treated 300,000 patients in Taiwan and that is how he became so good at the pulse. My ear teacher also saw 300,000 patients in China and that is how she got so good at ear acupuncture. Tung style acupuncture has revolutionized acupuncture, as well. TCM is moving ahead, in a different way than how it was practiced in ancient times and it's doing pretty good considering.

Do you know why the last article you posted is so wicked, so evil? It's because TCM can really save lives. I am not going to pretend it can cure everyone, obviously. THere is only so much you can do with food, herbs and acupuncture. But it can save a lot done by the right people, not by fools. There is a really big problem with illegal forced organ harvesting in China. People can pay cash for an organ and it can be transplanted very quickly. They can just kill a political prisoner for their organs in China on demand. SO innocent people are arrested and murdered for their organs. ANd often these people who get the illegal organs die within a short period (as many transplant people do), which makes the murdered life that much more tragic.
But if people who need transplants would just wake up to natural healing and try that first, perhaps they can be cured naturally and spare a person their life. My friend was cured of liver cancer using natural healing. If China abolished TCM and just had western medicine, as the article you posted wants, they would be killing so many more people for their organs.

You bring tears to my eyes, Fresh, but not in a happy way.

>Thanks for sparing me anymore embarrassment by sharing anything more about myself related to anything considered alternative by American allopathic thinkers.


there's nothing embarrassing.
people have different opinions.
multiple people have referenced TCM here and I posted that as a counterpoint with specific reasons why TCM appears to be effective. not understanding all the various ways that humans can be fooled will cause one to believe in false treatments and waste time and money, imo. clearly you disagree, but you can't just appeal to what seems to work, we must appeal to valid tests and logic and science.


>>>>Tai:
You want to pigeon hole me, but you can't. You do not know what I identify as. I have a license to perform acupuncture, and that is what I do professionally, but that is not how I identify myself. I am certified colon hydrotherapist too, but I don't go around introducing myself that way.

when i say identify, it means to attach. if you have tears in your eyes, then clearly you are attached. attachment only brings pain and strife.



>You know why I can't participate anymore here? Because when I see someone in pain, I want to help. It's not because of some ego trip. It's called compassion. But I have been getting a few hints lately that I don't belong here. I don't fit the criteria.

i am sure that many appreciate your presence and your offering.



>>, some human beings who roam this planet, have more than 5 senses and this was the case for SHen Nong, an ancient Chinese herbalist who gathered data on Chinese herbs, as well as Hua Tuo, Li Shi ZHen, Bian Que and others

yes i know that we are prone to magical thinking and false idols.


>. Your criteria of taste and chewability are extremely limited.

my criteria of a food has provided me with stunning health for decades, without need for TCM, or superfoods, or anything else..


> In the case of Chinese medicine, there has been a devolution. Take the meditation and spiritual practices and moral disciplines away from the practitioners, and what you get are bumbling humans with five senses. THe basis of CHinese medicine came from the highly evolved Chinese at the time.
Only spiritual cultivators can truly perceive the meridians, can truly know they are real, can truly feel them. For example, the dai mai. How is western science going to explain that through nerves and blood vessels? BUt I know it's real because I can feel it. But trust me, Fresh, you have opened my eyes. I won't be speaking woo woo anymore and just play dumb and try to give some lame nerve explanation to make the skeptics happy.

I can appreciate the way you feel.

and I also think that there are many here who LOVE woo woo !



>>>Do you know why the last article you posted is so wicked, so evil? It's because TCM can really save lives.

why don't you argue with Zhang Gongyao, I'm sure a debate can be arranged.

that's the same kind of rubbish that jtprindl gives to criticize arugula and her views, that she is endangering lives.


>I am not going to pretend it can cure everyone, obviously. THere is only so much you can do with food, herbs and acupuncture.

there ARE NO CURES. there is only REMOVAL OF CAUSE.

CURES have nothing to do with CAUSE, generally, hence they are false.

> If China abolished TCM and just had western medicine, as the article you posted wants, they would be killing so many more people for their organs.

OR THEY COULD REMOVE THE CAUSE.
but that would mean they would need to change their diet and any other disease producing factors, and nobody wants to do that.

your talk is about false choices. the choice is not TCM or western.
the choice is remove cause or not. the choice is to understand that disease is not normal, natural, inevitable. it is predictable.

Tai: It's only an opinion. We all have them. You can never please anyone, especially when you talk about "woo," but you knew that before you started. Do you remember how many people you had ask you about your spiritual experiences about healing? For everyone here who scoffs at your views there is another person who is extremely grateful for you sharing your experiences, but the problem is that everyone expresses their disapproval but very few express their appreciation or gratitude. You have many good things to bring to this board and there are many here who find your presence to be extremely valuable. I, for one, would like to take this opportunity to register my gratitude to you.

When I start talking about the spiritual things I know that most people won't understand, but I do it anyway for those who do and for those people who will be guided to the information. Some people here may think I am crazy, but I don't care because I don't come here to please anybody. I know that I am doing good things and helping people, so even if the only people who speak up are my detractors I couldn't care less.

It's the same thing you've said to Jtprindle...don't let these things bother you. Some people will never understand, and they will likely be quite vocal about it, but if there's nothing you can do to change that then it is pointless to get upset. It is much better to focus your energy on sharing your knowledge and helping people and to ignore your critics altogether.

The people who want to hear what you have to say would greatly miss it if you stopped talking about these things, but the critics will always find something to criticize. Watering down your posts just because some people disagree with you would be a lose-lose for everyone involved.

Again, just because the majority of the feedback you're getting is negative feedback from NH believers, that doesn't mean that they represent everyone who comes onto this board and reads the posts. Even if these people don't reply, you are likely reaching dozens of receptive people a day and providing them with a perspective that is sorely needed on this board...the balance on this board is not right, but your presence and posts here help to even it out and provide different views to people who otherwise might come here and only see people promoting NH principles.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another fabulous find, Fresh. Again, thank you so
> much, because I never would have read this without
> you.
>
> I have teachers that have revolutionized pain
> therapy with acupuncture, so these articles you
> have posted are just ignorant, sorry to say.
>
> But now I understand why one of my main teachers
> has told us to stop talking about energy and
> meridians and just stick to explaining acupuncture
> through understood science. NOw I totally get it.
> He didn't cite these kinds of papers before and
> no one ever showed me these papers.
>
> First of all, there are some lame acupuncturists
> and some really good ones.
> Acupuncture does work, but it's not a miracle.
> Let's take a newly torn muscle. I can take away
> the intense pain, but the person can't just go
> ahead and use the muscle. They can't extend beyond
> the safe range of motion or they can retear or
> reinjure. SO, while the muscle is healing, they
> can have much less pain, but it's not going to
> miraculously stitch the muscle. But it can speed
> up the healing time.
>
> Thanks for sparing me anymore embarrassment by
> sharing anything more about myself related to
> anything considered alternative by American
> allopathic thinkers. Fresh, you are like the
> brave White one that finally tells the blind black
> man in white segregated America that he is really
> black and not one of them. It's time I bid you
> all Adieu.

Not everyone here is as vile as Fresh but it sure does make it hard to stick around for those who are not on his old school type fruit and greens trip. It's really rather pointless for the rest of us to stick around. People like him aren't going anywhere. Ever. Loserville.

Yeah tai, no sense even attempting to speak intelligently with the "woo scientism" crowd. Their view so arrogant and ignorant that its truly not worth the time. What I do find a tad ironic is imagining what a western doctor would say if some NH went into their office and said "a diet of dates and lettuce is optimal." They'd be laughed out of the building.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not everyone here is as vile as Fresh

VILE.

for posting studies about acupuncture.

you are a very sick woman.

but it sure
> does make it hard to stick around for those who
> are not on his old school type fruit and greens
> trip. It's really rather pointless for the rest of
> us to stick around.

I thought you put me on the IGNORE list?

People like him aren't going
> anywhere. Ever. Loserville.

you have some trouble accepting other points of view.

that is something you could work on.

CONSIDER THE SOURCE!!!

The first article fresh posted was written by Dr. Harriet Hall and she writes articles for Stephen Barrett's Quackwatch website and I would NEVER consider anything written or promoted by Barrett, even though some of his criticisms are valid since there are some bad protocols out there.

The second article fresh posted was written by David Colquhoun and according to wikipedia, "David Colquhoun is a British pharmacologist at University College London (UCL).[4] ... He previously held the A.J. Clark chair of Pharmacology at UCL, ... Colquhoun runs the website DC's Improbable Science,[3] which is critical of pseudoscience, particularly alternative medicine, and managerialism"

Obviously, both of these scum bags have an AGENDA, just like Stephen Barrett and the late Victor Herbert, and, once again, I would NEVER consider anything written or promoted by anyone of these paid naysayers.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 03:36PM by John Rose.

Is Zhang Gongyao
a scum bag too john?

tezcal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah tai, no sense even attempting to speak
> intelligently with the "woo scientism" crowd.
> Their view so arrogant and ignorant that its truly
> not worth the time. What I do find a tad ironic is
> imagining what a western doctor would say if some
> NH went into their office and said "a diet of
> dates and lettuce is optimal." They'd be laughed
> out of the building.

a ridiculous straw man fallacy statement

Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The people who want to hear what you have to say
> would greatly miss it if you stopped talking about
> these things, but the critics will always find
> something to criticize. Watering down your posts
> just because some people disagree with you would
> be a lose-lose for everyone involved.
>
> Again, just because the majority of the feedback
> you're getting is negative feedback from NH
> believers, that doesn't mean that they represent
> everyone who comes onto this board and reads the
> posts. Even if these people don't reply, you are
> likely reaching dozens of receptive people a day
> and providing them with a perspective that is
> sorely needed on this board...the balance on this
> board is not right, but your presence and posts
> here help to even it out and provide different
> views to people who otherwise might come here and
> only see people promoting NH principles.

so one is permitted only to post if one agrees with something.

got it.

Tai, I can understand why you feel the way you do, conversing with certain individuals - ignorant, dogmatic, simple-minded natural hygienists - is a huge waste of time.

They enjoy pretending like they have all the answers when it comes to diet and health, but in reality they are clueless. They know how to eat fruits and vegetables and parrot & regurgitate N.H. philosophy, that's about it. And how to cherry-pick articles they searched for on Google while ignoring everything contrary to their brainwashed beliefs. One of them actually believes they have achieved "stunning" health despite the fact that they've been proven wrong on the nutritional inadequacies of their diet on multiple occasions and consistently gets into arguments with every member they encounter. If you're not mentally stable (this person has also told people to kill themselves), you're certainly nowhere near "stunning" health. I agree, Tai, "taste and chewability" is a narrow-minded approach to foods - a built-in excuse for primarily eating copious amounts of sugar.

Scientific evidence only matters sometimes to natural hygienists (only when it agrees with them but never when it destroys their beliefs) and they believe that they are not obliged to give evidence but those with opposing beliefs are. It's like talking to a hardcore religious person about different religious views - they are never going to change, won't even come close - to considering anything outside of their current realm.


"Super foods don't exist"... "Nothing heals the body except the body"... "You must eat low-fat"... "Ancient medicine systems are a hoax, just eat fruits and vegetables" - Teaching these people of their insanity is the equivalent of trying to teach conventional medicine doctors that diet, nutrition, and natural cures are more effective than drugs and vaccines at preventing/treating disease.

<<<Is Zhang Gongyao a scum bag too john?>>>

EVERYONE WHO PROMOTES WESTERN MEDICINE FOR LIFESTYLE RELATED PROBLEMS IS EITHER A SCUM BAG OR A FOOL!!!

IF THEY ARE NOT A FOOL, THEN THEY ARE A SCUM BAG!!!

In fact, everyone who promotes any protocol in lieu of Lifestyle Changes for Lifestyle Related Problems is either a Fool or a Scum Bag - it all depends on whether or not they know that most of our Dis-Eases are Lifestyle Related. If they know that most of our Dis-Eases are Lifestyle Related and they are promoting anything else, they are a Scum Bag.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tai, I can understand why you feel the way you do,
> conversing with certain individuals - ignorant,
> dogmatic, simple-minded natural hygienists - is a
> huge waste of time.
>
> They enjoy pretending like they have all the
> answers when it comes to diet and health, but in
> reality they are clueless. They know how to eat
> fruits and vegetables and parrot & regurgitate
> N.H. philosophy, that's about it. And how to
> cherry-pick articles they searched for on Google
> while ignoring everything contrary to their
> brainwashed beliefs. One of them actually believes
> they have achieved "stunning" health despite the
> fact that they've been proven wrong on the
> nutritional inadequacies of their diet on multiple
> occasions and consistently gets into arguments
> with every member they encounter. If you're not
> mentally stable (this person has also told people
> to kill themselves), you're certainly nowhere near
> "stunning" health. I agree, Tai, "taste and
> chewability" is a narrow-minded approach to foods
> - a built-in excuse for primarily eating copious
> amounts of sugar.
>
> Scientific evidence only matters sometimes to
> natural hygienists (only when it agrees with them
> but never when it destroys their beliefs) and they
> believe that they are not obliged to give evidence
> but those with opposing beliefs are. It's like
> talking to a hardcore religious person about
> different religious views - they are never going
> to change, won't even come close - to considering
> anything outside of their current realm.
>
>
> "Super foods don't exist"... "Nothing heals the
> body except the body"... "You must eat low-fat"...
> "Ancient medicine systems are a hoax, just eat
> fruits and vegetables" - Teaching these people of
> their insanity is the equivalent of trying to
> teach conventional medicine doctors that diet,
> nutrition, and natural cures are more effective
> than drugs and vaccines at preventing/treating
> disease.

you are entitled to your opinion, although you didn't actually say anything . you just distorted and misrepresented and refused to allow anyone to have any opinion other than your own .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 04:55PM by fresh.

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<>>
>
> EVERYONE WHO PROMOTES WESTERN MEDICINE FOR
> LIFESTYLE RELATED PROBLEMS IS EITHER A SCUM BAG OR
> A FOOL!!!
>
> IF THEY ARE NOT A FOOL, THEN THEY ARE A SCUM
> BAG!!!
>
> In fact, everyone who promotes any protocol in
> lieu of Lifestyle Changes for Lifestyle Related
> Problems is either a Fool or a Scum Bag - it all
> depends on whether or not they know that most of
> our Dis-Eases are Lifestyle Related. If they know
> that most of our Dis-Eases are Lifestyle Related
> and they are promoting anything else, they are a
> Scum Bag.

you just called Tai a scumbag or a fool, I am not sure.

as well as many other people here.

congratulations.

funny thing is, not one person addressed any facts or any studies, or anything said of substance.

which is quite telling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 04:51PM by fresh.

Dear Tai,

I've been lurking around this board for three years. I read almost everyday but to not participate.

There are a handful of active participants who's posts I read from beginning to end. Many of them I skim and others I skip all together. I'm sorry you feel like you don't belong here and I will be very disappointed if you stop contributing. I relate very closely to the things you say. You have taught me a lot. Please feel free to stay if you want.

Everyone else, have a great day!!!!

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tezcal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah tai, no sense even attempting to speak
> > intelligently with the "woo scientism" crowd.
> > Their view so arrogant and ignorant that its
> truly
> > not worth the time. What I do find a tad ironic
> is
> > imagining what a western doctor would say if
> some
> > NH went into their office and said "a diet of
> > dates and lettuce is optimal." They'd be
> laughed
> > out of the building.
>
> a ridiculous straw man fallacy statement

A very well written sentence. Or not. You may want to consider a wider array of nutrients to your diet, perhaps a bit more fat as well. There is a chance it could help with your obvious mental degeneration. Either way, you aren't capable of luring me into your monkey talk, arguments, etc. So I will continue to ignore your posts as per usual. Cheers.

If you don't have time to watch the whole piece, skip to the 6 minute mark.

[www.youtube.com]

Insert Zhang Gongyao for Dave Chappelle.

Fresh, you chose to post those studies without even considering these:

[well.blogs.nytimes.com]

[umm.edu]

[www.acupuncturetoday.com]

But there is a ton of research from China. I can't be bothered to post it.

Thanks to everyone's kind remarks. I explained in my post about my journey why I use raw vegan foods. I am still reading through the old entries on this forum, as it is important to me. I am sure I will have questions in the future, and I will ask. Expect more raw vegan sharing from me in March after I go to a trade show. John Kohler has done episodes about cool new things he finds there for gardening and raw foods. And if there is something special before then, I might post too.

tezcal Wrote:
-------------------------
> A very well written sentence. Or not. You may want
> to consider a wider array of nutrients to your
> diet, perhaps a bit more fat as well.

i am endlessly amused by statements like this since
you have no clue of the array of nutrients that i am taking in.
nor do you have any idea of the amount of fat that i am taking in.


There is a
> chance it could help with your obvious mental
> degeneration.

it would be incredibly interesting to me to find out what mental degeneration you are speaking of. please be specific. pretend you're talking to a friend, or your mom.



Either way, you aren't capable of
> luring me into your monkey talk, arguments, etc.
> So I will continue to ignore your posts as per
> usual. Cheers.

are you a merged being of TSM and JTP?

what does monkey talk mean? can you possibly explain yourself, or do you wish to just hurl insults?

are you incapable of discerning the difference between mindless insults that you are engaging in, and the submission of information that i have made regarding acupuncture that you call "arguments"?

what is it exactly that provokes this kind of content-free defensiveness around here about such a benign subject?

very nice of you to share these links, Tai


Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you don't have time to watch the whole piece,
> skip to the 6 minute mark.
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> Insert Zhang Gongyao for Dave Chappelle.
>

i don't find that video relevant

i would find it more interesting if you could avoid a white supremacy argument, grant the man some respect and indicate to me why you think a presumably free thinking logical chinese person who has studied tcm for 30 years would come to the conclusions that he has. is it just possible that he has any valid things to say?


> Fresh, you chose to post those studies without
> even considering these:
>

yes i did post those studies without considering all other studies.
why would you expect me to do that?
that is apparently your job, which you have performed quite nicely.

I have no doubt that one can find studies, as you have, that show some evidence of acupuncture efficacy. one can also find studies on just about anything.
one can find quite a few studies that show no value as well.

so we end up believing what we want to believe, and what matches our experience.

but as i said, our experience is not reliable in these matters, since humans are subject to various confounding factors such as powers of suggestion and healing simply because someone seems to care.

it's hard to know how well the studies controlled the variables properly.

and it's a bit difficult to examine the validity of the information that you posted, not knowing many factors that may have influenced the results.

and some of the information was vague and not quantified.


but if we accept the one showing 30% vs. 50%, what I would say is
that it is prudent to consider a couple things.

why does the pain exist in these subjects? what is the cause?
is there any concern or investigation into the pain?

typically non-accident pain is caused by toxins, dietary and otherwise, circulating and pooling in different areas of the body.

I suspect that those in pain are not addressing the actual cause of the pain.
in other words it is a temporary palliative.

without dealing with cause, pain will return.

secondly, we can also grant that massage therapy works - it makes people feel better.

does that mean that these modalities are the BEST way to deal with the issue?
probably not, if not addressing the cause.

finally, the original point was regarding the curative powers of TCM, acupuncture, herbalism. even down to the bones, as you suggested.

I would suggest that pain relief is a totally different subject from actual disease cures. and proof of that would require controlled studies - feel free to provide non pain relief studies.


the above does not even get into any actual physiological validity to acupuncture, or pulse testing or many other aspects. there needs to be some underpinning of the system - it's just not there. but i know some people like the mystery and magic. so be it. we are free to believe and do what we do.



> [well.blogs.nytimes.com]
> re-provides-true-pain-relief-in-study/?_r=0
>
> [umm.edu]
> study-analysis-shows-acupuncture-effective-for-tre
> ating-chronic-low-back-pain
>
> [www.acupuncturetoday.com].
> php?id=27585
>
> But there is a ton of research from China. I can't
> be bothered to post it.
>
> Thanks to everyone's kind remarks. I explained in
> my post about my journey why I use raw vegan
> foods. I am still reading through the old entries
> on this forum, as it is important to me. I am
> sure I will have questions in the future, and I
> will ask. Expect more raw vegan sharing from me
> in March after I go to a trade show. John Kohler
> has done episodes about cool new things he finds
> there for gardening and raw foods. And if there is
> something special before then, I might post too.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 09:02PM by fresh.

I could post literally - yes, literally - more than one thousand studies on the curative powers of a large variety of different superfoods and TCM herbs. But why would I? To try and convince some random, uneducated fool on a message board who's entrenched in close-minded, dogmatic beliefs that health is more than eating raw fruits and vegetables? Who cares what this guy thinks? As far as I'm concerned, he's a nobody. He's just some random person who eats fruits and vegetables and likes to pretend that he has any sort of respectable health knowledge.

Quote

so one is permitted only to post if one agrees with something.

got it.

Of course not. What I said is that Tai's posts and views do matter and many people appreciate them, and that she shouldn't stop posting her views just because some people disagree with them.

My post was directed at Tai and written for her. If my post was directed at you I would say that everyone has a right to their opinion and you have a right to yours, but the important thing is that we share our opinions in a polite and courteous manner and not in such a way as to deliberately offend or hurt people.

When has Tai ever been rude or impolite to anyone on this forum??? She has a huge heart and is just here to help people. There's absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone's opinion, but to deliberately try to hurt someone who is just trying to help people is pretty low.

Fresh: You covered yourself well and your posts appear to be polite and courteous, but I felt your malicious intent and Tai's pain this morning. As Tai says, there are more than 5 senses. I just wish the people here could learn to treat each other with respect and kindness.

Edit: fake politeness and phoniness is far more offputting then outright hostility could ever be.

This is likely the most strongly-worded post I have ever made on this forum, but I am truly sick of this kind of behavior.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 10:12PM by Living Food.

I have read this thread and don't know what to say.

When we rise above the mundane science to explain a bigger picture it will be seen as woo and people will crunch us for it. Unfortunately l can only tell a fraction of the story because l need to stick with science to remain credible, but it is not where my heart is. I want to talk about the big picture and get into energies/frequencies/people connections and colours and link health with the spiritual etc, but most think it is woo because they don't experience any of that yet.

I wouldn't be fussed by it Tai....the world is not ready for people like us yet. Even most alternative people into raw veganism can't handle what we have to say, and they certain;ly are not going to be able to handle our real thoughts we dare not mention publically. Yes, we must be careful what we say publically because people will always be happy to rub our faces in the dirt...it can attract negative energies towards us.

We are very unconnected lost people on this Earth,and people are not ready to hear too much of anything. Need to keep things dumbed down and simple and there will by no problems. People don't like truth, it is far too much to handle because people can't relate to it.

I talk lifestyle 404 here, but l am not going to talk lifestyle 10010 because people will think l am off my trolly. In low level world's people with certain messages MUST button their lips. People live largely in the human mind and have not experienced the divinity of mindlessness yet, + the human mind is very VERY fragile, so we need to be very gentle with people and not push their thinking too much. Most live in a very small box, so it is important to approach things this way. Humans don't respond to their small box being rattled...people have been killed for it, and at least confronted with negative energy.


Anyway...l am fed up with it all. I don't wish to come back to this planet anymore. I need to experience mindlessness 24/7. If people wonder what l am talking about, then they are not meant to know at this point in time.

We keep on coming back to help people because we have too. It is not an easy road, but it is the only road we can take when we reach a certain point.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 11:54PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so one is permitted only to post if one agrees
> with something.
>
> got it.
>
> Of course not. What I said is that Tai's posts and
> views do matter and many people appreciate them,
> and that she shouldn't stop posting her views just
> because some people disagree with them.
>
> My post was directed at Tai and written for her.
> If my post was directed at you I would say that
> everyone has a right to their opinion and you have
> a right to yours, but the important thing is that
> we share our opinions in a polite and courteous
> manner and not in such a way as to deliberately
> offend or hurt people.
>
> When has Tai ever been rude or impolite to anyone
> on this forum??? She has a huge heart and is just
> here to help people. There's absolutely nothing
> wrong with disagreeing with someone's opinion, but
> to deliberately try to hurt someone who is just
> trying to help people is pretty low.
>
> Fresh: You covered yourself well and your posts
> appear to be polite and courteous, but I felt your
> malicious intent and Tai's pain this morning. As
> Tai says, there are more than 5 senses. I just
> wish the people here could learn to treat each
> other with respect and kindness.
>
> Edit: fake politeness and phoniness is far more
> offputting then outright hostility could ever be.
>
> This is likely the most strongly-worded post I
> have ever made on this forum, but I am truly sick
> of this kind of behavior.

nope. nothing malicious at all here.