fresh Wrote:
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> >What is so superior about those who eat animal
> products that they get their B-12 needs met?
>
> already answered several times. ingestion of more
> b12 producing bacteria.


or more accurately, second hand ingestion of b12 in animal tissue, from bacteria that animals ingest, in conjunction with internal metabolism.

plants don't have a need for b12, they don't even know why it is produced in the root systems.

and as i linked to above, we potentially have the ability to manuf it in our small intestines.

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"Microorganisms, primarily bacteria, are the only known organisms that manufacture B12. These bacteria often live in bodies of water and soil. Animals get B12 by eating food and soil contaminated with these microorganisms." Read more here...

So B12 is created by microorganisms, and is (ideally) to be found in water and soil. It is also produced by bacteria in our intestines (Herbert V. Vitamin B12: Plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr 1988; 48: 852-858.). From PubMed: : "...the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin." B12 is also partially recycled in out bodies. Some people insists that in the ideal vegan world we could keep recycling the B12 we got from our mothers milk as babies, but almost everybody agree that we need a B12 intake - from an external source.

One very interesting article I've seen on B12 is this one: [www.championtrees.org] . Here's a quote from it:

"B12 is the only vitamin synthesized solely by certain microorganisms - many of which are abundant in soil. And the only vitamin containing a trace element: cobalt. B12 owes its chemical name 'cobalamin' to the cobalt at the center of its molecular structure. Humans and all vertebrates require cobalt, though it's assimilated only in the form of B12.

Cobalt is important in the plant world. Bacteria on root nodules of legumes (beans, alfalfa, clover) require cobalt (and other trace elements) to synthesize B12 and fix nitrogen from air. Soybeans grown without cobalt are severely retarded in growth and exhibit severe nitrogen deficiency, leading to death in about one of four plants. Adding only a few ounces of cobalt per acre can resolve deficiency symptoms in ten to 21 days.

Cobalt deficiency is far more dramatic in animals, particularly ruminants (cattle, deer, camels, and sheep) grazing on deficient pasture. These animals obtain all their B12 from their gut bacteria, but only if bacteria are provided cobalt salts from pasture. Legumes with less than 80 parts per billion (ppb) cobalt can't meet ruminant B12 needs. Under deficient conditions, calves and lambs thrive and grow normally for a few months as they draw on B12 reserves in liver and other tissue, but soon exhibit gradual loss of appetite and failure to grow, followed by anemia, rapid weight loss and finally death. Marginally deficient pastures cause birth of weak lambs and calves that don't survive long. These symptoms mirror B12 deficiency in human infants.

To prevent or alleviate cobalt-B12 deficiency, farmers routinely add cobalt to animal feeds or salt licks. Some fertilize pastures with cobalt-enriched fertilizers; others opt for periodic quick-fix B12 injections. With any of these measures, all symptoms are reversed and B12 in milk and colostrum dramatically increases.

The implication for humans subsisting on vegetarian diets are profound. B12 synthesis by indigenous bacteria is known to occur naturally in the human small intestine, primary site of B12 absorption. As long as gut bacteria have cobalt and certain other nutrients, they produce B12. In principle then, internal B12 synthesis could fulfill our needs without any B12 provided by diet.

But if cobalt in our diet is on the wane, perhaps the problem isn't so much lack of B12-synthesizing intestinal flora as lack of cobalt, the element with which bacteria weave their magic. The burning question then is: how cobalt deficient is our soil?"

Animals and plants require cobalt in order to synthesize / produce B12. (B12 is called cobalamin because of the cobalt atom in it's center). In reply to "where does the bacteria come from", one could maybe reply "from cobalt", but this isn't totally 100% correct. It comes from a combination of microorganisms and cobalt. B12 can sometimes be found on the surface of plants, and commercial B12 production is partly based on growing B12 on the surface of molasses. Animals need cobalt from the soil in order not to develop B12 deficiency, but where does cobalt come from?

Studies show that ie. spinach grown in maneured soil contains 17.8 mcg B12/kg (dry weight), but since spinach grown in unmaneured soil also contains B12 (6.9mcg), we can't really say that the B12 come from cow dung only.

Maybe soil and water always contains minute traces of humans, insects and animals? That might be, but it wouldn't worry me much: if drinking water from a mountain stream contain microscopic amounts of animal products, so be it. Nature is a giant recycle bin, and there's not much we can do about it. Microorganisms / bacteria is part of nature. B12 is not only to be found in water and soil, but also in grass, on dust and in bark!

To answer the question 'where does micro-organisms come from is a bit tricky - it's a little bit like 'If God created the Earth, who created God?"...

What we know, is that cobalt is the key to B12 synthesis, and cobalt isn't an animal, it doesn't have parents, no eyes, and for sure it doesn't try to run away when someone tries to eat it .

Excellent post as always fresh

[plenteousveg.com]


So, how is it that vegetarian animals like cows and sheep can make their own B12 but humans cannot? One reason is because many vegetarian animals (like cows and sheep) have stomachs with four chambers. The first chamber, called the rumen, is rich in bacteria which can make B12. Other animals also have stomachs which are shaped differently and allow more bacterial fermentation.

Another reason that vegetarian animals aren’t B12 deficient is that they often consume soil along with their food. Soil often contains cobalt, which is necessary for making B12 in the intestines. As Dr. Justine Butler points out, many primates have been known to eat dirt to naturally treat/combat nutrient deficiencies. When moved to a zoo and fed a sterile diet, many primates develop B12 deficiencies.

So what is the solution for humans.
Should we eat soil or dirty vegetables to get B12?

A must read article from don bennett

[www.health101.org]

as suncloud once recommended, may need to take b12 more often, although it's impossible to know whether the body is producing any in small intestine. no overt symptoms but who knows if hidden symptoms and mma testing can get expensive if done regularly. i take methyl sublingual, very infrequently but may increase.

i don't see any references that show any higher than 5ug absorbed at a time.

1microgram - 50% absorption through food for example

higher intake drastically has lower absorption percentage

so

1 milligram/1000 microgram pill intake-- 1%-5% absorption=5ug max, allegedly although some unverified sources say higher

daily requirement=2ug

absorption is small with higher intakes due to limited cofactors available to metabolize the cobalamin in the body.

Cousens latest recommendations about B-12:

Cousens B-12

Dina's personal experimentation with b12 and spirulina and green products.

[www.youtube.com]

fresh Wrote:
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> Dina's personal experimentation with b12 and
> spirulina and green products.
>
> [www.youtube.com]


Is HealthForce his brother's corporation?

jameth sheridan's company i think. not his brother right? but yeah could be friend and therefore a biased recommendation, i don't know.