you two are arguing over nothing.


many of the points that nunativs made are valid

but there is a large genetic component to longevity.

so all we can do is what feels good and attend to the needs that we deem important.

fresh said:
"but there is a large genetic component to longevity. "

That's not really true. There are two people in the show I spoke of above, one had advanced lung cancer in his early sixties, given two months to live by his doctors, moved to Icaria, ate the local diet, mostly plant based with some fish, goat dairy and occasional goat meat at celebrations, grew and brewed 200+ bottles of wine a year and drank it, and oulived all his doctors, living to age 103.

Another woman cured her cancer the same...

I think the Lifestyle is far more important than food, lot's O Nature, slow paced little stress, lot's O celebration etc. Arguing on forums about sprouts seems like "arguing about nothing", n'est-ce pas?

Here are some of the Diet and Lifestyle Lessons we Can Take from Icaria:

Mindful Eating: Icaria’s do not eat unless they’re sitting down, relaxing, and spending time in conversation with one another.

Vegetables and Beans: The Icaria diet is largely plant-based, rich in vegetables and beans (like garbanzo beans, kidney beans, black-eyed peas, and lentils) and low in meat. Seasonal vegetables are natural, unprocessed, and largely organic, free of pesticides and herbicides. Vegetables include wild mushrooms, tomatoes, potatoes, wild greens, pumpkins, squashes, and taro root.

Wild Greens: Icarians grow almost everything they eat and they eat a lot of wild greens. They eat a lot of fennel, dandelion greens, and horta (something like spinach), and anything their gardens produce seasonally.

Nuts: Plentiful nuts on the island of Icaria include almonds, walnuts, and chestnuts.

Fruit in Season: Icarians eat a lot of kalamata olives, stone fruits, apples, pears, oranges, grapes, figs, and blackberries in season.

Low Sugar: Sugar is primarily added to morning coffee and is largely absent anywhere else in their diet.

Olive Oil: Icarians drizzle olive oil over almost everything they eat. They consume most of their olive oil unheated.

Raw Goat’s Milk: Goat’s milk is easier to digest than cow’s milk and high in tryptophan, which reduces stress hormones and lowers the risk of heart disease. You could argue that goat’s milk is healthy, but I believe it’s not just that; it’s the fact that Icarians drink raw goat’s milk. Remember, whenever milk of any kind is pasteurized, the beneficial probiotic, lactobacillus acidophilus, is destroyed. This probiotic helps to synthesize B vitamins in the colon and build healthy bacteria in the gut. The reason yogurt in most developed countries (like the U.S., Canada, and most of Europe) contains probiotics is because they were added back into the pasteurized yogurt after those probiotics were removed. Goat’s milk, goat cheeses, and goat yogurt in Icaria, Greece is not pasteurized.

Herbs and Herbal Teas: Icarians drink a lot of herbal teas. These teas contain compounds that lower blood pressure, lower the risk of heart attacks, and lower the risk of dementia. One of the most popular teas is leriadis, a mountain herb tea drunk in the evenings. There are also teas made from wild marjoram, artemisia, sage, a type of mint called fliskouni, rosemary, and dandelion leaves with lemon. Many Icarian teas contain mild diuretics. Other common herbs include fennel, savory, oregano, chamomile, and sage.

Wine: Would you believe the Icarian diet includes a little wine at every meal, even breakfast? They usually drink between two and four glasses of wine per day.

Honey:Raw, unpasteurized honey is a staple in the Icarian diet and is viewed as a general tonic. They start their day with a spoonful, use it to cure hangovers, take it to treat influenza, and apply it topically to heal wounds. This honey is not made from bees—is it made by an aphid that gets its nectar from the bark of pine trees. Pine honey is unique to the island.

Fish and Meat: Fish is eaten approximately twice a week. Other meats (usually goat or pork with lard) are eaten only about five times per month.

Typical Breakfast: A typical day might begin with a spoonful of honey. It is seen as a tonic. After that comes a breakfast of one optional glass of wine, goat’s milk or goat yogurt, sage tea or coffee, honey, and heavy naturally-soured sourdough bread made with whole grains.

Typical Lunch: A late afternoon lunch is usually a large meal consisting of perhaps another glass of wine, some kalamata olives, wild greens, plenty of potatoes, beans, or lentils, more heavy sourdough bread, and perhaps some hummus.

Typical Snack: A sunset snack with friends for Icarians is a cup of herbal tea and one glass of wine.

Typical Dinner: Dinners consist primarily of only whole grain sourdough bread, goat’s milk, and a glass of wine. If they add anything else to this meal, it is merely some fish twice a week, or a bit of goat or pork five times a month. After a dinner with friends, a dance to traditional Greek music is not uncommon.

Lifestyle and Exercise

Walking and Hiking: Icaria, Greece is a mountainous region. The people spend a lot of time outdoors. Many are goatherds. Icarians walk or hike the hilly island daily. Even people well into their nineties hike up and down mountains without a second thought.

Daily Naps: Icarians take a daily thirty-minute nap every day. Some say napping reduces the risk of heart attack and stress, and makes people look younger. Since one study indicates that men between the ages of 65 and 100 have sex regularly and with “good duration” and “achievement,” I suspect Icarians’ daily naps offer health benefits beyond rejuvenating sleep.

Community: Icarians have a strong community and tight-knit family and neighborly support. Everyone knows everyone else’s business and they like it that way. Everyone has a sense of belonging and acceptance. Such strong social connections have been shown to lower depression and body weight. They spend a lot of time together in groups of all sizes, singing and dancing, going to church, and celebrating numerous religious festivals. Partying is an integral part of their lifestyle.

Family: Family is important to Icarians. Sometimes three generations will live in one house, but even if they don’t all live together, grandparents tend to spend time with grandchildren on a daily basis. This type of social arrangement improves the health and well-being of both younger and older generations.

Gardening: Every Icarian spends time outdoors in the sunshine each day, tending their gardens. It’s an Icarian tradition. Everyone does it.

How many of these elements of the Icarian lifestyle can you implement into your American routine? As the Icarians have demonstrated, the more time you spend outside, the more walking you do, and the more greens and less sugar you eat, the longer you live. I’ll tip my glass of wine to that!

i didn't say that diet and lifestyle has nothing to do with longevity

and i didn't say that diet can't cure disease.

i agree with you on lifestyle, but that is not related to genetics.

what about jack lalanne and his brother then?

what is your conclusion about them?

one lived what would be thought of as a healthy life and the other not

the brother outlived jack

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >soymilk that is fortified with B12
> >fried tofu
> Is soy or tofu good for our health?

I suppose you're referring to my post where I mentioned what my husband eats. He is VEGAN out of respect for other species. His own health is not his primary concern in choosing to be VEGAN. Yet he has remained a committed 100% vegan for nearly 30 years, and a vegetarian for 10 years before that.

He is a construction worker and strong as an ox. I have tremendous respect for him, AND he supports my choices as well.

>He is VEGAN out of respect for other species.
Thanks for sharing.
He has great values.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NuNativs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Suez says:
> > "You've made us quite well aware that you've
> > learned how to work and milk the system while
> > giving it the finger and contributing nothing
> of
> > value, putz. Just don't know your snake in the
> > grass angle yet on why you're trolling a raw
> vegan
> > website."
> >
> > My value is that I continually point towards
> > Nature. I use the tools of the time as a way to
> be
> > in the Matrix, and yet out of it as much as
> > possible as Nature (Sun/Light, Air, Water,
> Earth)
> > is where true fullfillment and joy exist. I'm
> not
> > pointing a finger AT, I'm pointing a finger
> > TOWARDS
>
>
> Nothing wrong with romanticizing living in a
> trailer park I guess if that's where you want to
> be.
>
>
> edit
>
>
> > I'm not trolling, I am a health and longevity
> > enthusiast and this forum is supposedly one
> avenue
> > towards that aim. Paul Bragg said make health
> your
> > hobby, don't take it too seriously, which I
> > don't.
> >
> > (Health Nutz...t.m.)
>
>
> Who are you trying to fool? Your trolling.

YOU + ARE = YOU'RE. And I could not care less what you think about me. You have shown your butt already. You mock people with an elitest attitude so that is enough for me to realize that your arrogance is not something I resonate with, Sally.

Thanks RawPracticalist. Appreciated!

Well, NuNativs, perhaps you've heard of Edith Greenley? I can't say for sure if she's vegetarian or vegan, but she was shopping at a VEGAN store (according to this article) when her famous incident happened last year!

"Ed Sutherland, 23, was no match for 110-year-old Edith Greenley’s vicious self-defense moves when he cornered her in the parking lot of Loma Linda Market, a local vegan grocery store. Seconds after demanding Greenley’s wallet, Sutherland was struck on the forehead by the centenarian’s shopping bag."

"Asked what her secret was to living a long and secure life, Greenley said, 'The Okinawans have Karate, the Sardinians have the Mafia, my knitting group and I — we stay off the hooch and carry cans of Big Franks.'”

(Big Franks are a vegan hot dog)

[barelyadventist.com]

Edith's great-grandson recorded the incident on his cellphone.

Edith Greenley was 110 at that time, and she has since been hired by the Loma Linda Police Dept. "to recruit volunteer community safety officers to patrol our streets".

[barelyadventist.com]

On top of all that, she is happy and gorgeous:



NuNativs, as a student of longevity, you should probably be aware that although Ikaria is ONE area of longevity, another of the 5 "Blue Zones" (originally featured in National Geographic for longevity) is located in Loma Linda, California - the home town for both Dr. Wareham and Edith Greenley, and famous worldwide for having so many CENTENARIANS. Loma Linda is a 7th Day Adventist community that promotes vegetarian and vegan diet.

In fact, studies to date have found that the only common elements consistent among all Blue Zones for preventing disease are......(drum roll): FRUITS AND VEGETABLES.

"Vegetables and fruit are the only characteristics of the diet that were consistently identified in every conclusion statement across the health outcomes..."

2015 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Council, USDA

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > Who are you trying to fool? Your trolling.
>
> YOU + ARE = YOU'RE. And I could not care less what
> you think about me. You have shown your butt
> already. You mock people with an elitest attitude
> so that is enough for me to realize that your
> arrogance is not something I resonate with, Sally.


Oops, Sally, thanks for correcting my typo.

Who showed their butt? Now you've got my attention (I'm a lowly pious man...

In my opinion, diet and happiness are the most important factors in regards to longevity. That doesn't mean other things aren't important, but these are the two main principles for longevity. Lots of nutrients, phytochemicals, laughter, high-quality sleep, fresh air and water with little stress and you'll be on pace for a long and healthy life.

You're much better off not exercising and eating a well-planned raw vegan diet than you are being a fitness guru and eating an unhealthy diet. Eventually malnourishment and toxicity from a poor diet will catch up to your organs and leave you unable to exercise and then you're stuck with a sedentary lifestyle and an unhealthy diet.

A long life is not enough.
Are they healthy?
Are they five physical senses working properly?
Are they sexually healthy?
Can they care for themselves?

People that follow the blue zone book recomendations may not live long like those on the book. And people that practice a very unhealthy life may live long.



[www.dailysquib.co.uk]

Quote

Another subject, Robbie Dickinson, 39, from San Diego, USA, used to be a health fanatic, who sadly passed away last week. He lived a totally healthy lifestyle with an all organic macrobiotic diet, constant gym workouts and regular detox regimes.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2015 02:41AM by Panchito.

RawPracticalist wrote:
A long life is not enough.
Are they healthy?
Are they five physical senses working properly?
Are they sexually healthy?
Can they care for themselves?

If you read the article I posted above, yes to all your questions. Climbing mountains daily. Sex often from 65-90's. All very self-reliant.

You don't Live long UNLESS you are healthy in my opinion, same as a tree, or any other Living organism, the hardy and the vigorous survive.

Panchito wrote:
"And people that practice a very unhealthy life may live long."

That's a judgement call that you know what a healthy Life is. It's much more than food, probably food has little to do with it within reason. People can age and kill themselves with stress for instance, the food doesn't save them...

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Panchito wrote:
> "And how do you know they were doing a well planed
> diet?"
>
> Let's just take the often quoted and admired
> Shelton and TC Fry for example.
>
> Herbert M. Shelton was the most influential
> Natural Hygienist of the 20th century. For six
> decades he preached the superiority of a raw vegan
> diet of fruits, vegetables and nuts. Did he enjoy
> a long and vigorous life? No! He was in a
> declining state of health in his sixties, and was
> bedridden for the final 13 years of his life due
> to Parkinson’s disease. He died at just 89.
>
> His protégé, T.C. Fry, taught the infallibility
> of a raw vegan diet for 26 years, yet he died at
> the ridiculously young age of 70!! However, even
> more disturbing is the fact that he suffered from
> numerous health problems long before his death.
> According to Dr Bernarr Zovluck, a close friend
> for 30 years, Fry died from coronary embolism. He
> also had multiple atherosclerotic thrombi of his
> lower legs, edema, a lesion on his left lung,
> anemia, high acid blood pH, breathing problems,
> constipation, osteoporosis, teeth and gum
> problems, etc.
>
> Doesn't it give you a bit of pause, the results
> obtained?

Many of the early health food gurus did not live what they preached.
Why Did T C Fry Die 'So Young'? [debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com]

Meatmonger propaganda there.

B12 is present in natural environments and we would get more b12 than we need if we lived in our natural environment which is in the tropics, where we wouldnt need vitamin d either.

Eating meat is MORE unnatural for a planteating vegetarian animal like the human species. It's like a cow eating flesh or a lion eating grass.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> You don't Live long UNLESS you are healthy in my
> opinion, same as a tree, or any other Living
> organism, the hardy and the vigorous survive.
>
>
Not necessarily. I volunteered with the elderly for some time, and let me tell you, there are plenty of very sick and very old people out there. One lady was 99 with diabetes, constant digestion, UTI, hearing, etc. issues. She took a whole load of medication every day, while eating nasty meat and junk food every day. It is not life, it's a miserable existence. She's still alive by the way, 101 years old now. Would I like to live that way. No. I prefer quality over quantity. What's that obssession with longetivity anyway?

Also, no matter how healthy one's lifestyle ( or what one believes in), there are such things as karma and destiny.
If you have to go thorugh a certain experience to learn your karmic lesson, you will, one way or the other. If it's your time to go, you will go either via desease or an accident, the God/Universe will find the way.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 04:08PM by littlemermaid.

I'm not talking about folks who stay a/Live only through medical intervention, that's cheating.

"Also, no matter how healthy one's lifestyle ( or what one believes in), there are such things as karma and destiny."

I don't believe in such nonsense. So the Coptic Christians that were beheaded were facing their "destiny"?!?!?

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> banana who Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > > Who are you trying to fool? Your trolling.
> >
> > YOU + ARE = YOU'RE. And I could not care less
> what
> > you think about me. You have shown your butt
> > already. You mock people with an elitest
> attitude
> > so that is enough for me to realize that your
> > arrogance is not something I resonate with,
> Sally.
>
>
> Oops, Sally, thanks for correcting my typo.

LOL! I'm Sally now, Sally? Wow, that is hilarious. You were accused of being her. I never have been, nor do I claim that it is superior to eat animal products. Having said that, I am just being honest about my current state and as I move towards veganism (hopefully forever or at least a very long time), I just don't want to pop pills or wear a patch. That does not resonate on any level for me and seems to suggest deficiencies in the vegan diet, which I don't believe exist. In other words, how often do you hear meat-eaters wondering about B-12? So if eating meat is not superior to veganism, then we shouldn't have to take something to "make up for" things in our diet, should we?

No, I didn't think so, either.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how often do you hear meat-eaters wondering about
> B-12?

They are usually talking about hospital visists, medical care, insurance, deaths, being tired, looking old, and eating meat in restaurants to celebrate with meat. What is the % of vegans you find in a hospital?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 05:52PM by Panchito.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > banana who Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > > Who are you trying to fool? Your trolling.
> > >
> > > YOU + ARE = YOU'RE. And I could not care less
> > what
> > > you think about me. You have shown your butt
> > > already. You mock people with an elitest
> > attitude
> > > so that is enough for me to realize that your
> > > arrogance is not something I resonate with,
> > Sally.
> >
> >
> > Oops, Sally, thanks for correcting my typo.
>
> LOL! I'm Sally now, Sally? Wow, that is hilarious.
> You were accused of being her. I never have been,
> nor do I claim that it is superior to eat animal
> products. Having said that, I am just being honest
> about my current state and as I move towards
> veganism (hopefully forever or at least a very
> long time), I just don't want to pop pills or wear
> a patch. That does not resonate on any level for
> me and seems to suggest deficiencies in the vegan
> diet, which I don't believe exist. In other words,
> how often do you hear meat-eaters wondering about
> B-12? So if eating meat is not superior to
> veganism, then we shouldn't have to take something
> to "make up for" things in our diet, should we?
>
> No, I didn't think so, either.


[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

banana who Wrote:
>
> I just don't want to pop pills or wear
> a patch. That does not resonate on any level for
> me and seems to suggest deficiencies in the vegan
> diet, which I don't believe exist. In other words,
> how often do you hear meat-eaters wondering about
> B-12?


So if eating meat is not superior to
> veganism, then we shouldn't have to take something
> to "make up for" things in our diet, should we?



animals in the wild that don't eat other animals don't suffer from b12 def.

what part of "you don't live in the wild" don't you get?

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> banana who Wrote:
> >
> > I just don't want to pop pills or wear
> > a patch. That does not resonate on any level
> for
> > me and seems to suggest deficiencies in the
> vegan
> > diet, which I don't believe exist. In other
> words,
> > how often do you hear meat-eaters wondering
> about
> > B-12?
>
>
> So if eating meat is not superior to
> > veganism, then we shouldn't have to take
> something
> > to "make up for" things in our diet, should we?
>
>
>
> animals in the wild that don't eat other animals
> don't suffer from b12 def.
>
> what part of "you don't live in the wild" don't
> you get?

Why are you getting so agitated? I am aware that they may differ from us in that respect. I am speaking now of meat-eating HUMANS. I have never heard a meat-eater worrying about B-12. The implication is that if you eat meat, you don't have to worry about such a deficiency in B-12. I have decided that if I use nutritional yeast occasionally, I don't have to think much about it.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Why are you getting so agitated? I am aware that
> they may differ from us in that respect. I am
> speaking now of meat-eating HUMANS. I have never
> heard a meat-eater worrying about B-12.

it does not matter what you have heard of.

meat eating humans suffer from b12 def.



The
> implication is that if you eat meat, you don't
> have to worry about such a deficiency in B-12.

false


I
> have decided that if I use nutritional yeast
> occasionally, I don't have to think much about it.

unnatural!!!

i am not agitated - i am suggesting your logic is faulty.

Cousens:

"Consistent research over the last decade has shown that vegans and live food people of all ages and sexes have a much higher risk of becoming B-12 deficient."

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cousens:
>
> "Consistent research over the last decade has
> shown that vegans and live food people of all ages
> and sexes have a much higher risk of becoming B-12
> deficient."


Not caused by veganism, caused by bodily damage (lacking the ability to produce intrinsic factor, low levels of stomach acid, pancreas malfunction, low levels of probiotic bacteria), unhealthy lifestyle factors (alcohol) and poorly planned diets. It makes no sense thinking that we need to eat animals to obtain something that originates from soil. You really think vegan diets can provide sufficient levels of everything except one nutrient and therefore we shouldn't be vegan? Nonsense.


Also, bananawho - [www.rawfoodsupport.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 07:50PM by jtprindl.

bananawho

I think of it this way...

let's say that humans are unable to live their whole lives without ingesting some form of b12.

Vitamin B12 is produced by soil microbes that live in symbiotic relationships with plant roots

- even though bacteria are not animals, they are prokaryotes, they are not plants.

- so let's say humans cannot be completely "vegan"

- in the wild we would likely get enough from soil/water so that we would not need to eat any animals bigger than a bacteria, so that we could be considered vegan from that perspective. in other words, you do NOT NEED to eat insects or meat, or anything else. simply from soil/roots and water.

- since we are NOT in the wild, we need to make adjustments due to our ARTIFICIAL lives and do something Artificial. it doesn't invalidate veganism - Veganism is an artificial construct anyway. We could just as easily say, are we deficient when eating ALL meat? yes. so is meat deficient? no, it contains nutrients and forms a varying part of many animals diets. for us, it's MORE deficient than plants.

BUT, consider that our bodies are made up of 90% "cells" that are not OUR cells, they are bacteria and such, assisting in digestion, etc.

SO, unless you are considering getting rid of that 90% that is not you, the bacteria, etc, there's really no difference between the bacteria within you and the symbiotic relationship that we have with it, and b12 that we ingest, produced by bacteria - it's just that one is internal and one is external.

where is arugula?

abstract only

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cousens:
>
> "Consistent research over the last decade has
> shown that vegans and live food people of all ages
> and sexes have a much higher risk of becoming B-12
> deficient."


Okeeee....Now you posted one sentence from Dr. Cousens (which frankly shocks me to read from him but should it? Isn't he pushing supplements these days?). So tell me WHY this is. What is so superior about those who eat animal products that they get their B-12 needs met?

>What is so superior about those who eat animal products that they get their B-12 needs met?

already answered several times. ingestion of more b12 producing bacteria.