One of the reasons I slacked off on posting on the main forum years ago was the issue of 'detox'. In those days, the forum was active and a lot of newbies asked for advice and reported their progress and challenges. It got on my nerves when someone would come on the board and say they had started the RFD and were having serious problems - like no energy, weight loss, heart pounding, whatever, and many of the regulars would tell them "It's detox." Lots of posts about detoxing. "I'm detoxing." "I just have to get through the detox phase." I felt that either they weren't eating the RFD properly, or they weren't 100% Raw so therefore they can't blame the RFD, or it wasn't working for them for some reason - like the condition their body was in. As with Gosia's concern about accountability, it didn't seem right to advise these people to continue eating the same way to work through the 'detox.'

Just wondering what ever happened to 'detox', if it's still a thing - that you have to feel bad before you can feel better. Maybe it was only an issue for those who went 100% raw overnight rather than 'transitioning'. Of course, lengthy 'transitioning' gets on my nerves, too, because people transition for years - LOL. Just do it. It would be interesting to find out who has been transitioning the longest and what percentage of people actually do ever successfully 'transition' from high raw to fully raw.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2015 04:22PM by Lois.

I know when I went from a long time vegetarian diet (though very limited raw, fresh foods) to 100% vegan about 70% raw overnight, I definitely had a 'detox' period starting about day 3. I don't know if it was so much my body flushing out "toxins" as it was my body going through withdrawals from sugar, caffeine, dairy along with adjusting to the drastic increase in water and fiber. For me, it was mostly GI symptoms with (expected) weakness, tiredness ext... because I knew I was not at that time able to eat large enough portion sizes to meet daily caloric intake needs (and had to work up to it) and my body screaming for refined sugar and caffeine.

As for transitioning to 100% raw overnight, there was no way! I'm not sure I will ever be (or even want to be) 100%. I always ate very small portion sizes of cooked foods before and I struggled for several months to increase my portion sizes up to what was necessary for a healthy raw diet. It's been almost a year, and I am over 90% raw and 'comfortable' where I'm at for now. I have a few cooked (vegan and made from scratch) meals a month and occasionally use a few 'questionably raw' ingredients like "raw" carob powder, "raw" nuts or "raw" agave. The bulk of what I eat now though is raw, and I make no apologies for the occasional cooked meal seeing as it's not a daily or even weekly thing. I will also not be bullied, intimidated or shamed into going back to cooked OR feeling like I am not "really raw" either because I have some stir-fried or steamed veggies and rice every once in a blue moon.

Hi Kiwi,

Yes, it's probably easier to go from vegetarian to high raw vegan, and that's a good point that a lot of problems are related to what someone isn't eating, and withdrawal symptoms, especially if you gave up caffeine. You're doing great - I can tell from the beautiful photos of your raw food you post

I was remembering those who's symptoms were alarming to me, and it didn't seem right that we on the board should be telling them that they should just continue with what they were doing. And like I said, it got on my nerves when someone would trash the raw food diet, saying it didn't work, when they were eating cooked food - like grains, maybe - rather than all raw.

I hope I don't come off like I'm bullying about the transitioning. You made a decision to be high raw and you're happy with it, but some people - in those days - would be striving to be all raw, and always asking for help in doing so, over and over, saying how they've been transitioning, but they just could never quite seal the deal.

Sorry if I also came off as complaining, but I realized I never hear about detox anymore (of course, I've only ever posted on or read this board, so that may be why) so I was sharing a couple reasons why I gave up trying to 'help' people on the main forum years ago.

No, I wasn't 'defending' my position against you. There are just a few members on here who I figured would probably comment on this thread who seem like real 'purists'(and also seem as though they go out of their way to attack those with differing opinions). I do strive to be as close to 100% as I can/is reasonable, but I also don't feel a need to be so restrictive if my husband wants to go out to eat (which is rarely) or it's freezing cold out (also rare where I live) or whatever other random situation that I couldn't "allow" myself a cooked meal (if that makes sense).

Curious what symptoms you found so alarming?

Good, I felt kind of guilty that I was coming off judgmental and when you mentioned bullying (that's a sensitive issue on the board - and being that I'm speaking from the peanut gallery - LOL ), I thought you might have felt that I was being condescending or something. Glad we cleared all that up (talk about dissecting everyone's speech and searching for tone, intent - as I had posted about on the other topics forum - I just did it ) and I hope you're not getting any pressure from your family or friends, to eat more cooked or more raw, whichever.

Well, I remember the weight thing was an issue - getting way too skinny. Once there was a guy who - I think it was he and his brother - had gone on the diet and gotten down to something like - I think it was less than 100, they were teen-agers, so extreme. Another problem would be with people who had the heart-pounding thing, and also the extreme loss of energy to where someone could hardly walk out to the mailbox. Sorry I can't remember the specifics, just that I didn't agree with telling those who had what I considered serious symptoms to continue eating whatever they were eating that was causing the symptoms.

John Rose and fresh were also on the board in those days, so I wonder if they remember the complexion of the main forum. I was on since 2000.

You should definitely just keep on doing whatever you're comfortable with and whatever fits in with your lifestyle. You're lucky (smart is a better word) that you're eating so healthy at such a young age. Some people feel the need to go to the extreme - eating all raw - because they're older and have various health issues. I had issues, plus I had been searching for the best diet for fifteen years, so for me the RFD was a blessing, there was no hesitation and I was all in.

Lois:
they had started the RFD and were having serious problems - like no energy, weight loss, heart pounding, whatever, and many of the regulars would tell them "It's detox."

Tai:
Since some really deficient vegans can have anemia, yes, of course, we can't call every negative symptom "detox". We have to be mindful of deficiency symptoms and be prepared to tonify rather than cleanse sometimes.

Lois:
Just wondering what ever happened to 'detox', if it's still a thing - that you have to feel bad before you can feel better.

Tai:
I think so. When you are first cleaning your colon, you will experience detox. THe same goes for all the organs. The key to successful detox is making sure the channels of elimination are clean and open first. Always best to start with the colon first, then the liver, then the kidneys, then the blood, etc. Once the basic organs are clean, then when you are digging deeper, the detox symptoms should not be overwhelming for the average semi-healthy person.

Detox will be rough for those who are really toxic and easy going for those who have had clean diets.

IT's possible that a person might transition to veganism with a tonifying not cleansing diet initially, but once they later start to consume more cleansing and detoxifying plants, they might detox more later. So, then the detox might seem drawn out and even take years. It all depends on the person's education about plant foods, lifestyle, and ability to flush the body out slowly or quickly.

A high fat raw diet might be able to sustain a person's life, but it's not so great at creating detoxification in the body. The only exception partially is Lou Corona's nut and seed yogurt which is rich in probiotics, which help to break down things in the body. So, a person can be eating high fat and then perhaps years later embark on a juice fast or juicy low fat raw diet and then all of a sudden, detox kicks in. You can't say it's bad or good, if the person was not ready before or didn't have the time or money to detox until years later.

And then only some raw plant foods are good at detoxification. Not all raw foods are good detoxifiers. So, a person might take a long time to get the hang of it...hence the long drawn out process of detoxification.

One thing to remember about detoxification is to avoid the "ping pong" effect. If your channels of elimination are not open, and you unlodge toxins, then they can circulate around the body and then relodge somewhere else. That is unhealthy. Hence, it is very important to make sure one has 2-3 bowel movements daily and is urinating normally with proper kidney health and is bathing regularly for skin exfoliation (or skin brushing) before embarking on a serious detox.

I was surprised to hear of some raw vegans that have constipation issues sometimes. In Chinese medicine, we have a variety of "laxatives". Not all laxatives are harsh purgatives. We have some blood tonics, yin and yang tonics, qi movers, oily seed tonics, as well as a variety of mild to strong purgatives. If a person needs a blood and yin tonic for their constipation, then they will get side effects from taking a purgative. There are certain vegetable juices with oxalic acid that are nice mild laxatives, too.

What is stored in fat cells, just fat? Or do toxins and poisons store there?
When someone goes on the raw diet and those fat cells get eaten up, do those toxins run freely in the blood?

Thank you ahead of time God for your answer...

Quote
I was surprised to hear of some raw vegans that have constipation issues sometimes.

Seriously? I'm surprised too! With the amount of fiber and liquids one must eat on raw, I don't understand how you could possibly end up constipated.

Also, since I've gathered you're a naturopath or in some kind of natural healing as a profession, aren't we in a constant state of detoxification? As in, even if someone is on the worst diet in the world, their body is still detoxing all the time (albeit perhaps not as efficiently as it could or has a bigger toxic load than it can process)? Does that (in your opinion) kind of make the term "detox" in reference to dietary improvements a bit deceptive? And are there actual measurable "toxins" that exit the body en-mass when someone drastically improves diet and lifestyle (like something you could gauge by urine or blood tests)? More curious than anything.

Suvine wrote:

What is stored in fat cells, just fat? Or do toxins and poisons store there?
When someone goes on the raw diet and those fat cells get eaten up, do those toxins run freely in the blood?

Tai:
Yes, they can be stored in fat. When someone has done a lot of pharmaceutical drugs and they are cleansing, they better be prepared to rest when the toxins leave the body, because it is very unpleasant.

But they aren't always stored in fat. They can be stored in joints. Once I did acupuncture on a new patient. I did acupuncture in his knee joints (for knee pain). For a whole week he felt like he was coming off of heroin. He said he was going through withdrawal symptoms and his body was on fire. The thing is, he quit heroin like 7-8 years before the acupuncture session. That was his first acupuncture session. One week later, I did another acupuncture session and he was totally fine. So he detoxed for one week. He was a thin man, so he didn't have any noticeable fat on his knees.

To Kiwibird:

Think a raw vegan can't get constipated? Watch 40 below fruity talk about skipping 40 days!

[www.youtube.com]

Yes, kiwibird, we are detoxing all the time, but sometimes the mild and mediocre detoxification is not powerful enough to heal a severe problem. Sometimes the right liquids, fruits, juices and herbs and veggies are required to get over the hump. TOxins come in so many forms and in so many areas and in so many organs. Yes, toxins can be measured and they have very sophisticated testing to measure things like pesticides, DDT, PCBs, heavy metals, car exhaust, you name it. (Environment medicine is very impressive but often requires cash to test for these things. Insurance usually doesn't pay.) But toxins can also be hard colon constipation, kidney or gallstones, constipated lymph nodes, clogged arteries...anything that is clogging up the healing process. That is super generic. Since we don't really know what the toxin is unless we test for it, the word just is used so generically.

Thanks Tai. Good explanation of and examples of detoxing.

I was mainly concerned that alarming symptoms that were being diagnosed as 'detox', by those on the board in the old days, should have been taken more seriously as probable signs of deficiency or other issues - maybe over-alkalinity, whatever. Your prescription drug/heroin examples and Kiwibird's caffeine withdrawal example makes a lot of sense.

It certainly would help if I could remember exactly what those symptoms that were labeled 'detox' were. I remember people talking about their hair falling out, but then again, that may not have been attributed to 'detox' either.

I know when I went all raw vegan, I started feeling wonderful immediately, so that's why it used to make me suspicious that feeling worse on the raw food diet is normal, but I was gluten-free vegetarian prior to switching to all raw.

And that's a good reason for 'transitioning'. First you get off caffiene, then gluten, then dairy, then meat, then grains, then stop cooking altogether, maybe transitioning from each monthly.

Hi

Yes you need to detoxify all the amalgam fillings and take out your teeth that have been root canalled.

Do your lingam and yoni massage every day without fail. That is the path to good yogic health

the coffee you drink is not raw. It has been roasted to release carcinogens

Dr Tim knopfler (PhD, from the $100 science academy) , the renowned superfood expert has opined that lettuce is in fact not vegan, as it has residual latex produced by the burrowing microorganic pests

The Dhamma of it all is the rilex of the goji noni and acai. The preoxity and the resulting hyper oxygenation causes rapid reliueux that is dangerous to your chakric health

rawdeal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Dhamma of it all is the rilex of the goji noni
> and acai. The preoxity and the resulting hyper
> oxygenation causes rapid reliueux that is
> dangerous to your chakric health



Am I smelling more canned "live blood analysis" speak?

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rawdeal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Dhamma of it all is the rilex of the goji
> noni
> > and acai. The preoxity and the resulting
> hyper
> > oxygenation causes rapid reliueux that is
> > dangerous to your chakric health
>
>
>
> Am I smelling more canned "live blood analysis"
> speak?


Based on this person's other posts, I think you may just be smelling a troll.