I ain't "thrivin" on raw!

I have eaten vegetarian since 1994 I guess. About a year later someone introduced me to the raw idea. He said he feels "ecstacy" all the time. I don't mean the drug either. Since then I've eaten mostly raw. There've been times when I lived in places where raw just didn't feel like it fit in, and there've been times when I wanted to try something else, like Macrobiotic, but for the most part, I've eaten mostly raw since 1995 I guess.

I freely admit (?) that I haven't been the most consistent eater, in any way. Not consistently raw, not consistently healthful foods, not consistent with times, amounts, etc. That goes for other areas of my life. I've done yoga (which I've started up again and I like it okay but it ain't GREAT), the Five Tibetans, meditation (which I have been doing for a while now that I have a group to sit with - Zen style meditation), a colonic or two, fasting, and probably other things that don't come to mind right away. I have done Ravi Ravi Shankar's breathing techniques taught by the Art of Living also and I felt great during those 20 or 30 minutes that I sat down and did them.

But nothing nothing nothing has ever made the difference. I believe that if it made me feel GREAT enough, long enough, I'd still be doing it. Lots of things - including the raw diet itself - I do because I believe, somewhere inside of me, I feel, that they're right, or good, or for some reason, really worth doing.

Maybe I'm too impatient for my own good. Maybe I need a large dose of patience and persistence. And faith.

Yet, it seems to me, that as much as I have lived a fairly healthful lifestyle, I would feel better than I do, and would feel better than I did before I started raw. I can't even say for sure that I feel better than I did before I started eating vegetarian. I'd say that I don't feel as constipated as I did years ago, before going vegetarian, but other than that, I don't feel so great.

I ain't "thrivin".

So I'm soliciting comments from anyone who reads this. Any comments at all. Anything.

Anyone know of a guy named Thomas Billings? He is or was a raw fooder in the San Fransisco Bay Area. He also used to write lots of articles. I don't know what ever happened to him. Later on he started up a website - www.beyondraw.com. I read lots of the articles that he, and some of the other authors wrote on this site. I think it's a great site. One of the articles on there is about some phenomenon that someone called FTF - Failure to Thrive. The author, probably Thomas himself, wrote about problems among people in the raw movement. FTF being a symptom, I think, of the many problems among people in the movement.

Enough.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

So does fasting give you moments of feeling great? That would be the test, in my mind, for if it was possible for raw to make you feel great or not.

What would be your definition of "thriving" Thomas?

Sometimes the key is in the definition.

Many people equate "feeling great" with lack of struggle, and yet "struggle" is intrinsic to life. No struggle; no life.

Most of the disciplines you cited take years of persistent struggle to bear fruit, and even after the fruit life does not cease to be a struggle.

"To thrive", to me, is to have the energy, vitality, endurance, patience, and faith to continue in the struggle of life. To "be sick" is to be in short supply of these qualities and to be unwilling or unable to continue in the struggle of life.

When I use the word "struggle" I am not envisioning a joyless, uphill climb without rewards. I am "seeing" the squirrel in my backyard struggling to get to the corn I hang just out of reach for him/her outside my window, or the bud of grass pushing through rock and soil in its struggle to become a blade.

Stephen Cope wrote in one of his excellent books on Kripalu Yoga of how the yogi who has practiced for many years and has reached mastery many of us can only dream of reaching still struggles with anger, fear, overeating, sexual weirdnesses and all the other "problems" that so many of us are using diet, spiritual practices and etc. to escape. But mastery is not cessation of struggle. It is equanimity in the midst of it.

My hunch is that if you can accept struggle as part of life; if you can embrace your "problems" and give up the illusion that any diet, exercise program or spiritual discipline will grant you immunity from these, you may discover that you are indeed thriving and that you feel a whole lot better than you think you do.

Be well,

Khale

maybe your not thriving and it has nothing to do with RAW....

i believe if you really want to thrive you will....by exercising....getting some sunshine...breathing fresh air....having loving relationships...and eating RAW...

it seems odd to me that often times when people are not doing as well as they want to be....they sorta blame raw....there are so many other things to incorporate beyond raw that will enable you to thrive...go for it....

lots of love and support to you....set your intention....and most of all smile

When is the last time you had a blood analysis? If you are deficient in a mineral or vitamin, that could effect the way you feel and your health.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2007 06:16PM by Rawrrr!.

It seems to me that failure to thrive is not uncommon. Some people are incurring deficiencies. Hardly anyone bothers to check his or her nutrient intakes.

But even if they did, and found that everything was AOK on spec, they still might be having a problem with some minerals, as bioavailability tends to be lower on plant diets. So even if you *meet* your RDAs, you could still have a problem. And since most people probably aren't even close to meeting the RDAs for iron, zinc, etc. it is not surprising.

I know of one guy who took a multi and ate several kg worth of f+v, including a great deal of leaves with an estimated iron intake of over 30 mg per day. But all this led him to anemia and only an rx iron pill solved his problem. An OTC one did not. Some things are hard to assimilate from plants (and pills as well).

What you are going through, many people have experienced. Not thriving. Surviving. I've been there too. Bored. Unexcited. Stuck.

Its not about the food. An unhealthy diet can make things worse. But I've met people with unhealthy diets who were excited about their lives. They had good energy.

How much bliss do you experience? How much love is in your life? Are you at peace? Do you feel the stillness?

Or do you experience more pain than bliss? More apathy than joy? More agitation than stillness?

I've never met Tom Billings. I know someone who used to post here a lot who knew Tom when he was a raw vegan, and he saw him afterwards as a cooked omni. According to him, Tom looks unhealthier than when he was raw vegan. Reading Tom's writing, Tom did a lot of control around his diet. I would imagine that when he let go of all that control, simply the act of letting go of control made him feel better. For me, control doesn't work.

I wish Tom would post pictures of himself as a vegetarian, fruitarian, raw vegan, cooked vegan, cooked omni. These picture would help people decide if Tom's advice is something they want to listen to. By reading his words, people can't tell if he is happy, thriving, healthy.

I am excited that you recognize your lack of thriving. It is the first step to moving towards something different. It is this recognition in my life that caused me to change what I was doing. Dietary changes did help me regain my health. But having good health is still not thriving. It is still not being excited about my life. Diet didn't give me bliss, peace and love. I did.

words words words, whatever you say will be, so change your words about yourself and your life will change, Be consistent and be safe and healthy!

I wish Arugula would post some pics of him/herself. He/she so fervently wants to appear as a nutrition expert and intellectual (and maybe he/she is,I don't know)and is in practically every post dispensing advice and prescriptions left and right that I would assume that he/she is probably among the healthiest of humans.So,what do you say,Arugula? Any pics?
Brian

he he
Yeah, come on...show your face!!!!!

Brian, you are awfully hostile and misinterpreting my posts. I post on things that interest me. The only fervent wish I have is for people to be healthy and sensible when they practice this diet. Unfortunately there is a lot of nonsense being promoted on many raw sites. If it were not so, I would not be so posty.

Tom Billings is very negative, and it scared me from fruitariansm for a long time before I realized he just made this website up ,saying all this bad stuff..instilling fear, for what? he was so angry ..

I think Brian was just being friendly and funny, arugula, we like your posts..we like variety.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2007 12:21AM by coconutcream.

to the OP, in addition to what others have to say....are you 100% certain that you aren't vit.D deficient? I have to take about 2000IU of supplement in the winter to "survive and thrive" and I know people who take over 10,000IU. There's a lot of new research (holistic research) showing that most people are vit. D deficient and meeting RDA doesn't even come close to what we need. If you want info on it, I'd have to wrangle it from my naturopath:-)

I'm also a firm believer in energy work (have you tried Reike, polarity therapy or something similar?)

ALSO--I agree with with everything Khale said...I might even go read this post a few more times tonight.

sarah

arugula, I would love to see your face too.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2007 12:35AM by rawgosia.

Bryan,

I really liked what you wrote.

I want to change my diet thnking that will solve all the problem and then can get excited about my life.

Bryan, I read your posts regulary as there is so much wisdom in your posts.

I live near San Francisco and hoping one day I can meet you and ask you questions regarding diet, yoga etc.

Do you have a website where one can contact you?

thanks

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "posty" haha funny!

I could care less who arugula is or what this mystery posty person looks like. I enjoy reading arugula's posts and whether I concur or not or kinda sorta, I feel arugula adds some valueable information, that I enjoy reading.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian, you are awfully hostile and misinterpreting
> my posts. I post on things that interest me. The
> only fervent wish I have is for people to be
> healthy and sensible when they practice this diet.
> Unfortunately there is a lot of nonsense being
> promoted on many raw sites. If it were not so, I
> would not be so posty.

Arugula,

I don't necessarily interpret Brian1cs's wanting you to post pictures of yourself as hostile. At the most maybe just a bit disrespectful in his approach. I think he wants to see if the things you espouse in your posts are creating a thriving vibrant person. Me too.

My question to you. Is your scientific/intellectual approach making you feel like a healthy, thriving, vibrant person? Do the people close to you in your everyday life experience you as such?

I don't know what "healthy and sensible" mean---they are just nebulous words to me. I do know what the experience of moving towards better health feels like and I do know what experiencing an expanding consciousness of the body's senses feels like and it involves a whole lot more than my mind.

When anyone challenges your beliefs, you seem to take it as a personal attack. On the other hand, some people may be intimidated by the highly technical or scientific nature of some of your posts that go way over their heads.

Personally I'm with CoconutCream, I like the spiceness of the variety in this forum. I'm not asking you to change anything, but I do wonder if your approach is giving you all the health, happiness, and peace of mind you truly want. And if it isn't, my wish for you is simply the courage and humility to say aloud that it isn't.

Love from Uti

i miss planta, morph, jose, etc. right up arugula's alley with the science.
i appreciate a balanced perspective here and if All we get is spiritual conciousness we miss out on much. it's mind/body connection, not mind/mind connection. can't forget about the physical, i just don't believe that you can will yourself into good health while ignoring your body's basic needs. both have to support one another.
too many times i read about symptoms of ill-health and see people addressing everything but deficiency when that is most likely the root cause. detox gets blamed for everything under the sun when that isn't always appropriate. a simple way to test is to actually test. see where your nutritional levels are at, some blood work can be very illuminating.
personally, i've experimented a LOT and gotten a wide range of results. now, as a parent i don't feel as comfortable taking chances with my and my family's health. if i have serious questions i go to where i can get answers, definitive ones. i don't use allopathic medicine for much but it sure is great for seeing where your iron etc is or if something testable is wrong.
my mom always says, take the wheat and leave the shaft. there's still so much that modern medicine practices are good for that we can't do on our own. i have a lot of faith but i'm not going to find out 15 years down the road that i messed up my kids (or myself!) with bad choices when i could have easily prevented the harm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2007 09:38AM by coco.

I agree with arugula on this, my impression, from peoples posts and menus, recipes, scientific awareness, etc... is that very few people actually make a conscious effort to make sure their diet is balanced and nutritious. It should be an indispensible tool, especially for someone starting out, to regularly check the free nutritional websites [www.fitday.com] and [www.nutritiondata.com] for example. Once you are familiar with the nutritional content of foods, then you can more or less calculate things in your head. But till then, everyone should be checking their nutrient balance reports a few times a week. In general peoples knowledge of nutrition is very poor, and even in medical school they spend virtually no class time learning about these things.

Of course, I completely agree that there is more to good health than a nutritious diet, and totally take on board the importance of emotional and spiritual well-being, being happy with yourself, etc.. These other aspects are also very important, but one should NOT neglect the scientific aspects of health, as they are very important too. All these things need to be considered as a whole. There should be no dichotomy between things such as emotional intelligence and scientific intelligence, and I think in our search for good health we should all strive to master these aspects of intelligence, for doing so we shall be amply rewarded.

So check your nutrients online!! and remember to always do it with a smile

Cheers,
J

ps hey coco! hope things are good, missed ya! and i agree

coconut,

Are you a fruitarian?


Ben

Jose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with arugula on this, my impression, from
> peoples posts and menus, recipes, scientific
> awareness, etc... is that very few people actually
> make a conscious effort to make sure their diet is
> balanced and nutritious.
-------------------------------------------------------

I agree with this statement. I was a vegetarian for years and thought I was getting a balance of everything that I needed. I made sure to eat protein enriched foods because I was told constantly that I wouldn't have enough protein. After being a vegetarian for 4 years and feeling that "failure to thrive" I tried to change my diet, and eventually became vegan. I lost massive amounts of weight and finally went to a nutritionist. I had focused so much on protein and whatnot I lacked the B12 and Calcium that I needed.

____________________________________

~Christi~
Natural Living Info
AP/NL mama to Jacob 10/25/2006

Thank you again Bryan....on the mark IMO. At the end of the day raw only helps you get there....but more work still to be done. Work in progress always.

Bliss is the key - the joy of being. FOLLOW YOUR BLISS.

Blissed be, Annie

I think arugula needs to look up from the books/computer screen and take a look at undocumented and untested life in real time every so often. But I don't care how she looks or base my opinion on what she says to eat based on her looks - and I would vote her the most likely among us (her or Gosia) to write a "peer-reviewed" mumbo jumbo scientific article about raw food in a scientific publication.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2007 04:23PM by tropical.

Arugala,

I can understand what you feel about brian's posts. I think there is a certain level of annoyance in his posts toward you, but really I'm only reading things with my own voice. I've noticed that you tend to be brutal in your posts, which is concise. But a man told me as a child there is being brutal and honest. There is no such thing as brutally honest. I guess my point in this would be maybe be less concise? I don't know, maybe it's up to others to not take things so personally.

I've been annoyed by your posts and taken them personally at times. However, I realize that I am only reading YOUR posts through MY OWN voice and that voice is somewhat negative, which is essentially my problem. Make sense? Basically all I had to do was change my voice when reading your posts and viola!!! a different interpretation. I now honestly think it shows a lot of caring that you take the time to post with so much furvor and you are learned in your posts.

I used to feel the same way about Bryan too. Now I feel like he's a great and caring man.

My two cents and thanks for being "posty".

Matt

coconut,

I honestly couldn't agree more about your "words words words". What we think will be. What we speak will be even more especially if we really think it. I've come to terms with so much lately just because I decided to. I changed my thinking and my words. My daughter, she's 4, is openly much more affectionate with me. My wife now says she feels like she can really count on me emotionally and finds me way more attractive, which is great! All I did was change my words and my thinking. My attitude changed and my life improved. I didnt' exercise anymore. I didn't up my raw intake from about 70%, which it is now. I didn't stop eating vegan foods at other's houses. I changed my attitude and my life changed... I changed my words.

And because I changed my thinking and words my life and mind opened up to new things. I became stronger and more directed. Suddenly food doesn't mean the same thing to me it used to. Food is a conduit to the rest of life. Food no longer is life.

I started to mourn how I treated my body in a way. I started to mourn that I have chosen not to treat it as the thing of beauty it truly is. This mourning was not a thing of depression but a feeling of happy sadness whereby I grew and lost part of my cacoon (sp?).

Now I know my direction and where I have to go to feel even more beauty and love... experience the coincidences, eat for beauty and not submission, connect to that beauty which I think is life and go where I need to after that.

With that said this has to be about the sappiest post I've ever written

Matt the beautiful man heheh

That sounds all warm and fuzzy and all but, all the positive words in the world won't put iron,iodine, amino acids, or nutrients into your body.

We are wholistic beings, body, mind & spirit, and we need to nourish all of us, not just our minds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2007 07:14PM by Rawrrr!.

it's kinda crazy but since I've changed my attitude I desire better foods if you will and crave more nutrient ridden foods. However, essentially what we eat comes from our mind because we decide to eat... warm and fuzzy feelings aside. Plus I never said we were not beings in entirety...

anyway, moving on...

I wasn't just speaking to you.. to everyone! haha! peace

Rawrrr... don't worry I thought it was funny