One of the arguments against milk has always been that humans are the only mammal to continue drinking it after infantacy and to make it worse, it's from a cow.

With your logic, you might as well say it's also "natural" for humans to continue drinking milk since they did when they were babies.

Hi my fellow Vegan friends, it's been a while since I have been on here!
Hope you are all well.

Juicing is great, I love it. I don't do any long juice fasts though because I find it so expensive and I end up throwing out all that great pulp.
I find I don't get as hungry doing longer periods on Green Smoothies rather than juice.

I am going to do a 5 day water fast starting this weekend, I have only ever done 3 days before. I did do the Master Cleanser last year for 10 days, that's altogether different though.

When I have tried Juice Fasting I have felt reocurring hunger all the time.

If something works for YOU though, then do it regardless of what others think, if it stops working do something different.

Phil.

--------------------------------------------------

"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Chinese Proverb)

Kwan wrote:

Quote

here's one that is pretty irrefutable: people so often comment that they feel calm, centered and refreshed, inspired or even enlightened when they're juice-fasting at a level they don't experience when blending or eating raw foods. Of course there's no hard scientific double-blind study-type evidence, ;-p but I've encountered so many people for whom this is a common experience.

This feeling that you described will happen whenever a person makes a simplication of their diet. Most raw vegans are not eating a healthy raw diet, and in fact some raw diets are unhealthier than a simple cooked diet of plain rice and beans and steamed veggies. What makes these transitional raw diets so unhealthy? Large volumes of fats, lots of spices and condiments, and various mood altering substances/superfoods (cacao, maca, etc).

So going from a diet high in fat and spices to one that is comprised of only juices is going to bring about a sense of feeling better. The question I have is after the juice diet/fast is over, does the person go back to their old diet, or is there permanent shift in the day to day diet?

On a slightly different topic, this juice feasting, as describe by the woman on a juice feast in Central America, has elements of a traditional juice fast and components of the raw vegan transitional diet: the inclusion of oils and spices and condiments. I don't know if juice fasters here are including those transitional elements in their juice fasts. The other thing that surprised me was that this person was thirsty after drinking more than a gallon of juice and needed to include plain water to satisfy the thirst. This tells me that there are toxins in the juice feast. What is interesting was the water was over a liter of water. When I water fast, I don't even drink 1/4 of a liter (250ml) of water a day.

When I want to cleanse, I prefer a water fast. I suppose if I needed to be functional and needed to work during a cleanse, I think I would opt for a mono diet of only one fruit, say like watermelon.

Here's another way to experience more calm and centering with your every day diet: remove the salt, spices, and condiments from your daily diet. This will take out a lot of the toxins found in many raw diets. This will also lead your body to making food choices based on the taste of the foods, rather than being fooled by the taste of the salt, spices, and condiments.

To my surprise I have to agree with you Bryan. I never thought I would say this, but since my recent diet change to low fat/high fruit I'm experiencing the same calm, centred, refreshed/energized feelings which I associate with a green juice fast. I'm still drinking a green juice everyday but I've been doing that for years, so that can't be the reason for my improved state of being.

Francis

Bryan-- I don't agree, because I've often simplified my diet to perfection, and it still just isn't the same in terms of consciousness. The feeling of strong spiritual connection that I'm referring to only comes from juice fasting or water fasting. That's all I was saying. Have you tried it?

Sharrhan:


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Hi Bryan,

I figured out a better way to explain the difference it makes for me to juice from time to time:

I can take exactly the same ingredients as I would otherwise want to juice, and blend them (and I've done this-- blended good fruits and greens or vegies and greens for a week or more), and the effect is qualitatively different. Juicing them is somehow different than blending them, in terms of the wonderful inner glow that feels like you are meditating without trying. That's all I'm saying. No doubt in other ways blending or raw mono-diet is just as good for you in terms of physical healing. But I'm talking about something added. And fasting is something that's been recommended down through the centuries as the premier way of feeling the 'Presence' and purifying the heart and mind.

So maybe we were talking about different things.

And I certainly agree that eating salt and all kinds of condiments with a raw diet is not good for you. I haven't had any salt in about 20 years-- vile stuff. Herbs in great moderation-- not needed to flavor food. Agreed.

:-)

Sharrhan:


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Bryan

I've been waiting for you to make the post that you just did about knocking the affects of juicing and why it happens.

I have done all water fasts and would never do it again, demcimating!

I have done all fruit and blened fruit for periods and again a washout and decimating.

I asked the question for all those who are against juicing like you are to please give their exact personal life experience with it. What's yours? NOT DG'S, YOURS! If you have not juiced any then why not?

I have used dried and fresh herbs and spices for the whole 10 years of being raw and am thriving on them. I recomend them to everyone.

elnatural

Bryan,

This is partly the problem

that somehow anything seen as 'adjunct' to a 'healthy diet' is often seen as a replacement for the lack of 'healthful living' or at the very least as some kind of unnecessary supplement.

I don't know which person you are referring to on a juice feast. but I'm sure you are right that many feel compelled on their long fasting journeys to supplement. Some might do so for nutritional reasons, some maybe to aid in their cleansing and movement of their bowels.

perhaps these 'foods' are not optimal by the standards of what constitutes our natural diet.

perhaps they serve as an (unnecessary ?) comfort to those who do not feel comfortable on going for long periods of juice alone. thus making them more content in the process

perhaps these items might even be 'toxic' or detrimental but still serve the prior explanation

personally, my diet is very simple, I posted 30 days worth of menus in the recent low fat thread. When I had the opportunity, I included vegetables juices. and there are various observations I could make on how not just my feeling of well being, but actually noticeable health changes with or without the practice (positives with/ negatives without). I don't feel the need to 'speed up' the process with a juice feast. my diet is PLENTY cleansing. Although in the future I certainly would choose a juice fast over a water fast unless I had a period of supervised absolute rest in idealy a perfect climate.

as for the water issue during fasting. I think there is open debate. Some people feel that they 'need' to drink water because it helps with the cleansing of their body (much like the juices). Some people think on a water fast one SHOULD be drinking a large quantity of water, whether one has 'thirst' or not.

of course one can be of the OPINION that the oxygenation / alkalinization that happens with juice could in no way aid in the repair work of the body. That both the 'sense of well being' and noticeable changes is physiology that takes place are simply due to the absence of food (which of course is very much a factor) so be it. But to me these are simply opinions for those with no direct long term experience with the practice or its 'healing' benefits.

I think its fine to uphold these opinions but enforceing these ideas with arguments like: "This is a substitute for healthful living", "A Whole foods approach is the optimal choice for achieving optimal health", "that people USE juicing or external cleansing to MAKE UP for continuing to practice unhealthful diets and practices" or that "juicing is not natural" (somehow insinuating that is some relavent point of argument in a non-natural paradigm of non-natural humans)

personally I think associating FASTING with RESTING is an important hygienic point. and that for those that are active, a mono-fruit or any simplified diet, is PLENTY cleansing for such a purpose.

If you did have a response for the following:

that when a body consumes vegetables it alters alkalinity...when this happens in great quantity and in a miniscul ammount of time (juice), it disrupts the cells that are used to an acid enviorment in a way that gradualy consuming whole foods (that you are right have appropriate levels of alakalinty that a pure human would need) would not.

or an absolute axiom that negates the possibility of any nutrient/property, acting on a body in a beneficial way thus repairing damage to a cellular strucutre with 100's of generations worth of degeneration.

that would make for some interesting debate as well.

Bryan

I couldn't edit my last post so this is an addition to it.

You, not ansewring the question I asked, will be taken as, you have no experience in juicing ever and only repeat with others say about it.

Everything I post on this board is proven out by long term 10 years of success. I never merely repeat what others say. What I say and recomend is all by actuall experience that results in long term incredible results.

Those things that you listed as being poisens allso go in my juice.

elnatural

El Natural,

I don't have any qualm about people juicing. I just wonder if all this juice dieting leads to any long term health benefits over a healthful raw vegan diet. My experience of people who consume a lot of juice that I know personally is that their health doesn't seem to be superior to mine (not being a heavy consumer of juice).

My experience with juicing comes from the 2 juicers I've owned, a centrifugal ejection juicer and a champion juicer (still have this one). First off, just getting into the game was expensive. The first juicer, which couldn't do greens that well, was over $100. The Champion, which does greens moderately, was over $200. I've made and consumed juices from various juicy fruits, root vegetables, celery, cucumber, dark leafys. I've only bought wheatgrass at the stores.

The only kind of green juices I enjoy are made with lots of cucumber or celery, and even the celery is too bitter to be enjoyed alone. I have to add sweeteners, like sweet fruit juices, to enjoy any of the bitter juices.

Also, my experience is that juicing after you've purchased the equipment is expensive as compared to eating whole foods. It takes a lot of produce to create 1 cup of juice. I am comparing getting the equivalent satisifaction level in terms of fullness of juice versus whole foods. I suspect that my experience with this is not unique.

I have never been able to stomach wheatgrass juice. It just doesn't taste like food or something my body wants to consume. I guess this is like how some raw foodists never like the taste of durian. Oh well. Given that I never like wheat grass juice, I never pursued buying equipment to indulge in this at home.

Given that people on SAD can live 70-100 years with a diet rich in herbs, spices, and condiments, it doesn't surprise me that you are thriving on them with your raw diet. However, these strong flavoring agents mask the taste of the foods, and fool the body into eating foods it normally wouldn't enjoy the taste of. I have to wonder if you didn't use all these seasonings, which food choices would you be naturally drawn to? Would you still eat all the cabbage your eat today? I don't know.

I still enjoy my champion juicer during the summers when I take frozen bananas and make banana ice cream. And I use my $5 glass citrus juicer to make an occasional glass of orange juice, which I enjoy thoroughly. I enjoy the orange juice, but it is more expensive than eating plain oranges.

Hey Bryan, If you get a chance I'd like to hear your response to my post.

I'd like to think I don't have to antagonize you to get a response

i'm out to enjoy the well anticipated spring that has finally arrived up north!

One of the arguments for juicing versus eating whole foods is that the juice has more nutrients than whole foods. I looked into what 200 calories of orange juice has versus 200 calories of whole raw oranges has in Cronometer. The interesting thing to note is that whole oranges has over 3 times the calcium of orange juice. The fiber in oranges in 10 times that of the juice, which is not surprising as juicing removes the fiber. Here is the raw data:

200 calories of raw navel oranges:

===========================================
Nutrition Summary for April 21, 2007
===========================================

General (10%)
===========================================
Energy               |   200.0 kcal     7%
Protein              |     3.7 g        8%
Carbs                |    51.2 g        8%
  Fiber              |     9.0 g       24%
Fat                  |     0.6 g        3%
Water                |   350.9 g        9%

Vitamins (22%)
===========================================
Vitamin A            |  1008.3 IU      34%
Folate               |   138.8 µg      35%
B1 (Thiamine)        |     0.3 mg      23%
B2 (Riboflavin)      |     0.2 mg      16%
B3 (Niacin)          |     1.7 mg      11%
B5 (Pantothenic Acid)|     1.1 mg      21%
B6 (Pyridoxine)      |     0.3 mg      25%
B12 (Cyanocobalamin) |     0.0 µg       0%
Vitamin C            |   241.2 mg     268%
Vitamin D            |     0.0 IU       0%
Vitamin E            |     0.6 mg       4%
Vitamin K            |     0.0 µg       0%

Minerals (9%)
===========================================
Calcium              |   175.5 mg      18%
Copper               |     0.2 mg      18%
Iron                 |     0.5 mg       7%
Magnesium            |    44.9 mg      11%
Manganese            |     0.1 mg       5%
Phosphorus           |    93.9 mg      13%
Potassium            |   677.6 mg      14%
Selenium             |     0.0 µg       0%
Sodium               |     4.1 mg       0%
Zinc                 |     0.3 mg       3%

Lipids (1%)
===========================================
Saturated            |     0.1 g        0%
  Omega-3            |     0.0 g        2%
  Omega-6            |     0.1 g        1%
Cholesterol          |     0.0 mg       0%

200 calories of raw orange juice:

===========================================
Nutrition Summary for April 21, 2007
===========================================

General (6%)
===========================================
Energy               |   200.0 kcal     7%
Protein              |     3.1 g        7%
Carbs                |    46.2 g        8%
  Fiber              |     0.9 g        2%
Fat                  |     0.9 g        4%
Water                |   392.5 g       11%

Vitamins (21%)
===========================================
Vitamin A            |   889.0 IU      30%
Folate               |   133.4 µg      33%
B1 (Thiamine)        |     0.4 mg      33%
B2 (Riboflavin)      |     0.1 mg      10%
B3 (Niacin)          |     1.8 mg      11%
B5 (Pantothenic Acid)|     0.8 mg      17%
B6 (Pyridoxine)      |     0.2 mg      14%
B12 (Cyanocobalamin) |     0.0 µg       0%
Vitamin C            |   222.2 mg     247%
Vitamin D            |     0.0 IU       0%
Vitamin E            |     0.2 mg       1%
Vitamin K            |     0.4 µg       0%

Minerals (8%)
===========================================
Calcium              |    48.9 mg       5%
Copper               |     0.2 mg      22%
Iron                 |     0.9 mg      11%
Magnesium            |    48.9 mg      12%
Manganese            |     0.1 mg       3%
Phosphorus           |    75.6 mg      11%
Potassium            |   889.0 mg      19%
Selenium             |     0.4 µg       1%
Sodium               |     4.4 mg       0%
Zinc                 |     0.2 mg       2%

Lipids (1%)
===========================================
Saturated            |     0.1 g        1%
  Omega-3            |     0.0 g        3%
  Omega-6            |     0.1 g        1%
Cholesterol          |     0.0 mg       0%

Anaken,

Quote

that when a body consumes vegetables it alters alkalinity...when this happens in great quantity and in a miniscul ammount of time (juice), it disrupts the cells that are used to an acid enviorment in a way that gradualy consuming whole foods (that you are right have appropriate levels of alakalinty that a pure human would need) would not.

I can see the truth to this statement, that a more alkaline source of nutrition will neutralize an acidic environment more quickly than continuing with the diet that caused the issue in the first place.

That being said, cutting out all nutrition except water will also balance out the acidity of the body. The body can, without the input of food, remove excess acidity without introducing foods to do the neutralization. This may lead to a small calcium loss initially which will be taken from the skeleton, but without any food coming in, the body can restore balance.

The danger of the quote above is that a person does not correct the lifestyle habits that acidify the body. That is, they continue their unhealthy practices of eating foods that acidify (usually too much protein or fat) and rely on a super alkaline balancer to make them feel balanced again. It is far healthier to eliminate the acidifying foods rather than trying to balance them out with an equally potent alkalizing agent. This reminds me of eating more omega-3s because the person overate omega-6s, rather than reducing the omega-6 intake to achieve balance. More is not always better. Sometimes less is more.

How many people take some alkalizing juice, achieve pH balance, and then are able to quit supplementing with juice because now that their body has achieved pH balance, they don't need the juice any more? The answer is probably zero. Because giving the "remedy" allowed the person to not look at the cause of their problem. If the cause of the problem is not removed, the remedy is needed in perpetuity.

Bryan

Thanks for your personal juice report.

The diciding factor of what I eat and how much of it has nothing to do with herbs spices and dressings that I put on them. I will and do eat the same things plain at times. I am not hiding, covering up, distorting, flavours of anything to make the edible, just enhancing. Don't try to apply, or put on me a single D.G. emaciating rule. Keep them to you and D.G. please.

Juicers last for years,the cost spread out over years of use is very low. The health benifits far out weigh the costs. The cost of a juicer compared to buying quality organic produce daily is nothing. I bought a used juicer on ebay normaly for over $2,000 for just $175.00.

elnatural

Dear Bryan,

You are writing some rockin' posts here! Very intelligent and thoughtful.

I'm with you, buddy. . .



Love,
Julie

elnatural_1,

I am not certain why you think I am simply parrotting why Doug Graham says, versus sharing from my own experience, unless you are more interested in casting doubt on the messenger versus addressing the message. Many people respect Doug Graham, so what you are saying to them (and me) is not an insult that you intend it to be.

This may seem inconceivable to you, but could it be that these things I share are things that are actually working for me?

Also what exactly do you mean by enhancing the food? Enhancing the flavor? Why does good food need to be enhanced? I don't find the need to enhance the foods that I eat, unless I eat a food that is flavorless or tasteless to me. How does fermentation (kimchee, krauts) enhance foods?

but El... you sell juicers, Blenders, Dehydrators, Sprouters, Food Processors
Pickle Makers, Nut Grinders, Water Purifiers, Air Purifiers, Ultrasonic Cleaner, Rebounders, Colema Board, Spare Parts etc...on your website

so i wonder if your motivations are behind the arguments are you selling an idea or .. items themselves?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2007 10:08PM by Jgunn.

Bryan,

Thank you for taking the time to write these fantastic posts!
I'm really enjoying your level-headed writings. This simplicity has worked the best for me, as well.

Harmony

This is really a 'Hot' Topic. I guess I'll jump right in. Juicing isn't Natural (unless you consider your teeth as a juicer as elnatural says), but it is Natural for me. It just 'feels' right. I say wash your body, inside and out, with Green, Alkaline Juices. I'm experimenting with the following juices....Wheatgrass, Celery, Spinach, Carrot, and lots of Water. Wheatgrass for the Nutrition....Carrot for the Filler....Celery-Spinach for the Cleansing, along with Water. It may be possible to live in Perfect Health on Juices alone, without keeping the System 'Bound' with Fiber and Fat......WY

No one can say what is best for me, except for me.

When I sold my home, and packed away my juicer, the first thing I broke out when I moved into my new home was my blender. I blended for a couple of months, and I was noticing that I did not look or feel as radiant as usual & my finger nails were not as strong. I knew from the pattern of the past, exactly what I needed to do. I broke out my juicer, and started juicing again. Well, my fingernails got strong again, and I began to look & feel more radiant. I still blend and eat whole fruits & veggies, but I've noticed a diffrence through the last 20 something years, that when I juice, I see myself thrive.

As far as the eating the whole orange or the juice.. I'll take the juice which has almost 2x the iron as the whole oranges. I get enough calcium. I like whole oranges too, I just eat or drink what I enjoy the most at the moment.


Sharrhan, how nice that you are getting so many compliments on how radiant you are... I see you have a good balance & you've been doing this for many years and it's obvious it's working for you.

Hi WY,
Thanks for the inspiration-- juicing has been amazing for me too.

Sharrhan:


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Bryan,

It still seems like you are using the argument that anything 'adjunct' leads one to 'resort to ones old ways'

I agree letting the body rest will conceivably restore the bodies PH, but that wasn't really what I was talking about

to my knowledge the body only needs a PH that is slightly alkaline, what I was talking about with alkalinity wasn't about restoring the bodies PH, but how toxic cells respond to this burst of alkalinity

juicing, because it lacks fiber (not in spite of it) is why it has this effect.

i'm not sure if you were responding to el_natural with the OJ comparison, but I agree that whole foods supply optimal nutrition and minerals. although it IS possible to get minerals however without fiber.

to parrot myself:
to change your health one needs to do more than eat healthy
changes need to begin inside-out at a cellular level by oxygenating and cleansing the system of toxins and other foreign elements.

the problem as I see it with doing this with just water, is it speeds up the elimination of toxins to the point where they can easily be re-absorbed back into the blood stream. When someone is using adjuncts like juicing and external cleansing. the likeleyhood of this happening is diminished. This is not to refute success of someone water fasting but that using terms like 'superior' when talking about water fasting as opposed to juice fasting, or feasting or what not, could better be described with adjectives like faster, slower, more intense/ less etc...and would in my opinion totally depend on the state of health of the individual.

the molecular structure of juice is very similar to haemoglobin which moves oxygen through our blood. it helps to eliminate wastes, old or dead cells while building new tissues with the easily accessible nutrients from the juices,

while its true in a theoretical situation one who is fasting is not really in need or defficient in nutrients. its is clear that someone who is juicing IS supplying their body with nutrients while also allowing their body considerable (comparable to eating) rest.

elnatural_1 Wrote:

> Don't try to
> apply, or put on me a single D.G. emaciating rule.
> Keep them to you and D.G. please.

you seem to have gone to great lengths to avoid emaciation.

i'm probably wrong.....but you appear to be either overeating in calories or over-herb/spicing yourself.
the latter will cause water retention.

the above is DG emaciating rule number 6.44.5

but this is just a minor detail.

everyone on this board is light years ahead of most people i see every day (like those people who are counting carbs, or trying to find sugar free tomato sauce, or people drawn to those "good source of protein" products), and these debates are funny when you step back a bit.

for anaken,

did you see this message?
can you help me with details of what you speak?
privately if you wish

anaken said:

> > just like Shelton and lockman when people
> > die at their fasting camps.

fresh requested:


> can you provide some more details for the above ?
>
>

of course its silly in that respect. but I think what i'm trying to say is that jucing isn't like some kind of optimal way to do the raw food diet..whatever the hell that is...but that it might...for some...be crucial. I know for me..I certainly do not 'supplement' on juice. It serves a necessary function for me, not my belief system

Fresh, I'll PM you

greetings WGY

Your open and totally positive perspective is such a blessing.

I agree with you Yogi and I am also now convinced we can live on juices alone. I haven't proven it out by real life experience yet and since I only talk from experience I cant say that to be true. When I actually do it, then I will report on it.

elnatural_1

Rawrrr,
Thanks for sharing your juicing experiences! It's easy to get intimidated when people are dissing something I know has helped me so much, and I have to snap out of it and realize, like you, I should just go with my inner knowing, not someone else's truth. Your insights about what juice fasting does for you are really inspiring.

For me juicing makes sense in particularly in this day and age of depleted soil and inferior quality produce, because it's so concentrated with nutrients. And of course the other advantage of juicing is the cleansing and release of energy that takes place as a result of very little digestion occurring.

I hope people who have never tried it will give it a chance-- putting food dogma aside for a bit-- if for no other reason than to find out if fasting is indeed the magic door to meditation and prayer. . . if one's inclination is in that direction. It has been taught by so many sages over the centuries that fasting is one of the royal paths to developing love, joy and peace within ourselves that it surprises me that more people don't want to try it to see if it's true.

Sharrhan:


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Some one created an advertisment for my web site above but forgot a few things.

Saunas, and the actual site name greenlivingoasis.com

elnatural_1

i expected a condesending or passive aggressive answer and im glad you didnt disapoint me.

thanks for sidestepping the questions, pointing fingers and acting like a typical salesperson.

dont get me wrong every sales person should believe in their products/ideas 100% which you obviously do.

see ya in the funny papers

this thread