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raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: dougyfresh ()
Date: July 07, 2007 05:16AM

Hi all. I just started going raw about 2 months ago. Wheat grass, green smoothies everyday. Then I looked into ayurvedic diet and found that I am a strong vata dosha. To my shock, I am supposed to AVOID RAW FOOD, mostly veggies to be fair. I am supposed to cook my food, even pears and apples. No more wheat grass and green smoothies every day. At least I can still eat my beloved raw sweet fruits.

Feedback welcome,

Dougy(cooked)fresh

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: greenie ()
Date: July 07, 2007 11:20AM

How do you feel when you eat raw foods?

Why trust what you read in a book more than your own experience?

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: July 07, 2007 03:35PM

Hi,
My new free E-book "The Seven Secrets of a Good Diet" will probably answer some of your questions. You can find it at "www.thebestnaturaldiet.com".
Have a nice day,
Annet

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: dougyfresh ()
Date: July 07, 2007 03:38PM

Good point greenie.

I felt pretty good at first, but then I started loosing weight, worrying more, creaky joints, very fatigued, all of which are symptoms of vata imbalance. I've also been craving oily, warm, heavy foods which are what are recommended for vata imbalance.

What I read in the ayurvedic books isn't new or a fad. It comes down from the ancient rishis who divined the info thousands of years ago.

Ayurveda does recommend raw for kapha types.

Thanks for the feedback.

Dougyhalfbaked

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: dougyfresh ()
Date: July 07, 2007 04:54PM

Thanks for the ebook Annet. It had much good advice.

Dougybaked

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: Jgunn ()
Date: July 07, 2007 09:57PM

ayurvedic is an interesting subject for sure ... but it is also a medical system much like TCM ... i think pretty much all cultures had some form of healing system geared towards their local area and what was available

ie: a southern east indian diet concept isnt going to do much for an eskimo in the arctic regardless of body type ..or vice versa

so i think you have to take what you can from these things and go with what makes sense to you and what is making you feel stellar smiling smiley

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: July 07, 2007 10:28PM

hi dougyfresh

i think that gabriel cousen's book "Green.. something or other Live Food Cuisine"

oh yeah, its rainbow green live food cuisine ( name of book)

had something in it where he incorporated both the underlying ayurvedic principles with raw foodism itself

so ... if you are someone who takes stock in that concept
maybe it would behoove you to get information where both are integrated together and where u don't have to cook your pears and apples

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: greenie ()
Date: July 07, 2007 10:34PM

Doug,

I agree with Jodi and would like to add that I'm in a community where a lot of people follow ayurveda and I'm quite familiar with it. From my own experience and reports from others, it has mixed results. I've seen people on extended Panchakarma get cured of serious diseases, and I've seen many many people follow AV and become less vital and not get well. I've also seen a lot of misdiagnosis and overlooked disease, including at least one lady who told her ayurvedic practitioner about a lump in her breast and was told it was fibroids when it was in fact cancer.

IMHO panchakarma and many of the herbs are good but the diet is generally not so good. Diabetes is rampant in India, even worse than in the US. And many of the herbs coming out of India have heavy metals and parasites. I know of at least one person who got heavy metal poisoning that was traced to the AV medicine she received from a top Vaijja. So what is great in principle may not be so great in practice.

This is just my personal experience and observation. I don't have an opinion about the virtues of raw food vs AV vs other diets for everyone, I think you need to go by your own experience.

The symptoms you describe can be symptoms of detox, both in the raw food concept of it and also in ayurveda. In other words, it can be a sign of vata being deranged, OR a sign of the deranged vata moving out. People going through Panchakarma here are told that the creaky/painful joints, sleeplessness, etc. is the vata moving out. In the same way, heat, temper etc. can be a sign of pitta derangement or pitta detox, and lethargy can be a sign of kapha derangement or detox. So the raw diet is not necessarily causing an unhealthy increase in vata.

If you want to continue with the live foods and fear it is deranging the vata, you can do other things to balance the vata -- abhyanga with cured sesame oil is excellent; drink warm liquids; have regular habits; eat more of the sweet juicy fruits, practice vata pacifying yoga postures and pranayama. All of those will be helpful whether the vata symptoms are caused by increase in vata or detox.

I hope this helps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2007 10:38PM by greenie.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: dougyfresh ()
Date: July 08, 2007 02:02AM

Wow! thank you all very much for the extremely excellent advice. I am so impressed and grateful for this forum.

I am considering studying ayurveda at the college in grass valley California. Anyone have an opinion on it (the college CCA)?

Also, can anyone tell me what TCM stands for?

Thanks,

Dougy(wants to stay)fresh

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: July 08, 2007 07:41AM

There is something wrong with the notion that a raw natural diet which establishes order in our body can be bad for us. Maybe it is not the rawness but the approach.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: July 08, 2007 11:46AM

hi dougyfresh

TCM stands for Traditional Chinese Medicine

I've personally experienced some awesome healing with acupuncture ( which is part of TCM) and I have a deep appreciation for their other philosophies and exercises as well. However, their diet also follows a cooked food regime which ...well, let's say I prefer the raw food more.

Maybe you could take the best from each system and also have raw foodism .
TCM has acupuncture and exercises. Ayurveda includes the yoga/meditation aspect. and the raw foodism of course has the raw foods. So, you could just take the good and leave the rest.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: aquadecoco ()
Date: July 08, 2007 01:40PM

I'm vata dosha and AV diet never worked for me. It's just not clean, like raw is.

I have never been much of a sheep, never done more than experimented with other people's doctrines but have given lots of things a fair shake. I always hold my own experience higher than anyone else's SHOULD.

I started raw last winter - of course I was cold, but I'm always cold. Guess what - I started to lose the coldness as my system regulated. During the first several weeks we even went car camping up at a Whistler-area natural hot springs, and all I had to eat was raw greens, fruit and nuts. We were either very warm in the tub, or very cold outside or in the suv, but mostly cold. Everyone around us was drinking and offering us alcohol, and roasting things at their campfires. It was below freezing. Food was always a source of comfort to me, so it wasn't easy but I did what I felt was best for me, and abstained from all that.

A few weeks later, the coldness started to subside and I haven't been bothered by it since.


I have a friend who is vata and he thinks I'm crazy to fast in the cold weather and to embrace a raw diet. He looks quite good for his age, but says he doesn't feel as well as he'd like. He says he could never eat much raw, since he is vata, so it sounds like he's never given the idea any real consideration.

I have another friend in her mid-thirties. She is a Traditional Chinese Medicine Doctor and strongly adheres to all its doctrines. But she has had grey hairs for several years and has chronic health problems, which she manages with natural methods. She always has a dry cough, though she says she drinks lots of water. She's a great person, but I find she's defensive about TCM and if I had spent over 30,000 on a TCM program and had built up a large patient base around it, I would probably want to defend it too. Luckily I can be more objective.


To me, all the doctrines including Western Medicine, are coping systems. They are doctrines designed to get around natural laws, ways of cheating nature, so to speak. To me, Raw Vegan diet is not a doctrine, because it's natural - it's how humans would eat and behave in their natural state. It appears primitive and simplistic compared to the effort used to develop TCM and AV.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: greenie ()
Date: July 08, 2007 02:35PM

aquadecoco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> To me, all the doctrines including Western
> Medicine, are coping systems. They are doctrines
> designed to get around natural laws, ways of
> cheating nature, so to speak. To me, Raw Vegan
> diet is not a doctrine, because it's natural -
> it's how humans would eat and behave in their
> natural state. It appears primitive and simplistic
> compared to the effort used to develop TCM and AV.


Yes! I totally agree with this!

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: July 08, 2007 02:36PM

dougyfresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all. I just started going raw about 2 months
> ago. Wheat grass, green smoothies everyday. Then I
> looked into ayurvedic diet and found that I am a
> strong vata dosha. To my shock, I am supposed to
> AVOID RAW FOOD, mostly veggies to be fair. I am
> supposed to cook my food, even pears and apples.
> No more wheat grass and green smoothies every day.
> At least I can still eat my beloved raw sweet
> fruits.

i thought pears were sweet fruits?

what underlying beliefs do you hold that would have you to place the philosophy of ayurveda in a position of validity and the raw diet in a position of invalidity?

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: Mislu ()
Date: July 08, 2007 03:39PM

Dougyfresh,
Thank you for starting this thread. I was going to start one asking a similar question about Indian medicine and TCM. I always found that pretty strange how both of those don't recommend raw food for some conditions. In some cases no raw food at all.

A diet of lightly cooked organic fresh food is more difficult to keep an a raw diet. Because you have to eat it immediately, and its not recommended to eat leftovers. The largest difference that I felt was at first my stools were better formed, but after awhile they became difficult to pass on a completely cooked diet.

My question is how does one use or adapt principles of TCM and Indian medicine while maintaining raw? Most of the herbs in TCM are boiled for extended periods of time, because herbs are generally considered richer than foods, and can be very difficult to digest, even after cooking. Are there any methods which improve digestion without cooking? I also wonder about the five element theory, if that remains valid with raw foods. Also the flavor balancing.

Someone mentioned heavy metal poisoning from Indian medicine. Its interesting, but some metals are specially prepared for use as medicine in Indian medicine. It can include tin, gold, mercury, and perhaps other metals. It takes a high degree of skill to use them appropriately. Some compared herbs and metals to weapons. If herbs are sticks and clubs, metals are guns and bombs. Which is probably not great comparisions for healing. Perhaps one could consider a pony ride or bike riding, verses a car or a jet. In any case the traditional view of metals in India is quite different from modern ideas about metals.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: aquadecoco ()
Date: July 08, 2007 03:41PM

how does one use or adapt principles of TCM and Indian medicine while maintaining raw?


You probably wouldn't need to.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: rawfrancois ()
Date: July 08, 2007 03:46PM

I don't understand my type in AV at all. The descriptions are all really confusing. I want to study it, though.


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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: anaken ()
Date: July 08, 2007 04:52PM

I can appreciate what Cousens tries to do with ayurveda..in principle anyway...in terms of targeting the right approach for the person. To me this has far more to do with the ammount of internal deposits as opposed to what 'type' of person they are. Although i'm sure someone's constitution, or true commitment (not just adhering to 'rules'), or spiritual presence weighs in as well. Due to genetics however, this certainly would have to do with where someone was 'from'. Whether you are Irish or Mediterranean or Martian.

I think people CAN get better (gradually and to a level) on macro or ayurvedya or whatever. because all these practices require a shift in consciousness, and a policy of leaving the obvious harmfuls out (maybe without enough emphasis on what constitutes 'healthy' practices and eating habits).

To me, it is equally naive to think that eating raw will restore health merely because it is what's natural. It's true that TCM, AV of course arised out of NEED for medicine, after being ill of course. Eating our natural diet (or a mostly natural diet, along with other healthy practices goes a long way. but sometimes we need to pay attention to our ill inheritance. NOT to turn to remedies or treatments per say, but acknowledge that these systems were not invented only because we forgot how to eat right, but an acknowledgment that this process needed to be reversed along with taking dietary steps.

but out of Huey Dewey and Louie

I think i'm Louie

no need for poisons

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: Funky Rob ()
Date: July 08, 2007 05:12PM

A couple of points, in the Ayurvedic system, we are a combination of all three types with one maybe coming out stronger - how are you sure what type you are? And following on from that, I've just taken three different internet tests and two of them say I'm Vata (and the other said Pitta) and I've been mostly raw for 5 years and doing wonderful on it!

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: dewey ()
Date: July 08, 2007 05:58PM

anaken Wrote:-----------------------------------------------------
> but out of Huey Dewey and Louie
>
> I think i'm Louie
>
> no need for poisons
and i`m dewey !! LOL
patty
sorry couldn`t resist smiling smiley

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: dougyfresh ()
Date: July 08, 2007 06:57PM

Fresh

I am just learning, seeking, asking. I am not attached to any particular belief. I thought pears were sweet too, but that's what AV says.
Peace.


La Veronique

Very good advice and exactly what my own intuition is saying...take the best of each. My brief experience with mostly raw (about 2 mo) has been so good I don't think i will give it up. As Greenie pointed out above, there are other AV ways to balance AV constitution (dosha) besides diet.
Thanks.


Mislu

Thanks. I think you would get more views and responses if you copy and paste your post as a new message with a more specific title for it. Good question for the forum.

Rob it sounds like you are a vata-pitta mix. I have taken about 10 tests and they all say I am way vata with some pitta and barely any kapha.



All

I am leaving today for surgery (to flare my nostrils with a titanium implant for more air) in Oregon (from CA), but I will try to hit internet cafes. I'm not going to take their antibiotics tho! Taking along a Cousins book too.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: July 08, 2007 07:23PM

dougyfresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fresh
>
> I am just learning, seeking, asking. I am not
> attached to any particular belief. I thought pears
> were sweet too, but that's what AV says.
> Peace.
>

ok, but your original post seemed to say that you were going to follow the ayurveda guidelines. that's why i was asking.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: Mislu ()
Date: July 09, 2007 11:58AM

Anaken,

What are obvious harmfuls? I think thats a matter of perspective, and personal needs isn't it? For example, I know people who think that 'Wonder bread" is a health food, because it has added vitamins, and its not sweet, and when they made a sandwhich, they didn't use mayo. To a vegan, meat and dairy are the ultimate evil, but many people still consider them required food stuffs for maintaining good health. Someone interested in 8/1/1 will consider any high fat food something to avoid or strictly limit, raw or not. A strict fruitarian will consider anything thats not fruit to be something obvious to avoid.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: anaken ()
Date: July 09, 2007 04:51PM

right. its all a matter of perspective. If someone is leaving out all the things they suspect are harmful, they will gain some degree of health that is right for them.

We can only do what we are truly commited to do. If we have a higher commitment, and have been making positive changes towards that commitment. These 'obvious harmfuls' will become more and more obvious smiling smiley

personal needs - yes - not human needs. I certainly have my ideas about what constitutes human nutrition (yes, to me eating apples with oranges is a hazard lol). but can't push this on everyone. My sense/point is that people on ayurveda/macro etc...can heal to a degree through this process. Yet...largely due to the lack of fresh foods and the constant level of toxin still in the diet. physical symptoms of detox essentially becomes lifelong [a proper raw lifestyle should free one of most physical symptoms within a few years I would think], thus the need to continuely suppress symptomology..or rely even more on an intense spiritual practice [not to mention not looking too smokin']. But people on these 'diets' or perhaps these are even more of a lifestyle then raw...have been known to heal chronic diseases.

What you are describing here are steps in consciousness. People that figure out what is working for them and what isn't will inevitably be 'more sucessful' then anyone who chooses a program. and regiments their diet to fit that system.

In your example. I think giving up something like mayo, is a step towards health. I would be thrilled if I had friends who came up to me and told me they had given up mayo - for life. Of course the gluten combined with the meat isn't really doing them much better. its still a conscious commitment towards health. Which is always better then a weak and failed attempt to change drastically. Alot of peoples approach to raw is just a drawn out failed attempt of trying to change too quickly. If that is ones choice..accounting for that choice with some major attention towards physical cleansing is needed. This is why when you look around there arn't all that many raw folks been doing this since before the mil. yet ayuerveda is nested in 'tradition' so that carries weight with some. too bad that tradition is as I already describes...endless detox/tox.

so another way to look at macro/ayurveda in another way is 'just enough'

hope this helps/clarifies

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: Mislu ()
Date: July 10, 2007 11:53AM

Anaken,
With commitment I think quality of information has something to do with things. I have also seen people who avoid avocados because it has a lot of fat, and then they get a large plate of french fries.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: John Rose ()
Date: July 10, 2007 01:38PM

"Conscious Eating" by Gabriel Cousens, M.D. uses the Ayurvedic Tridosha System to personalize the raw food diet. According to Cousens, Vata Constitutional Types should eat Raw Foods - 3 meals & snacks, no dried fruit & 118 degree warm fatty soups. Kapha - Raw Foods - 2 meals 6 hours apart, no snacks, & no juices or juicy fruits before 10:00 AM. Pitta - Raw Foods - 3 meals 4 hours apart, snacks & bland foods...avoid salty, pungent & sour tastes.

Remember, most people have a mixture of two doshas, so there's actually a total of 10 dosha constitutions, not just three. Also, since I've discovered this extremely accurate and applicable personality test that is based on quantum physics, I have found that there are some flaws in the Ayurvedic Tridosha System. The similarities are amazingly close, except the test that I have learned is actually more accurate, and it has 4 doshas instead of 3, so to speak. I would love to see someone modify the 3 dosha system to accommodate the 4th dosha. As of now, it's a little here and a little there and it just does not make any sense.

Peace and Love........John

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: Mislu ()
Date: July 10, 2007 02:49PM

John, is this test online?

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: dougyfresh ()
Date: July 10, 2007 10:30PM

I just started reading "conscious eating" now. How synchronous!


I heard about a 4 type system recently, but don't remember where. I am curious about the test also.

thanks all,

Dougyfresh

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: aquadecoco ()
Date: July 11, 2007 04:43PM

Someone named Dr. Abrahms (Ithink), wrote about 4 body types based on a dominant gland: adrenal, pituitary, gonad and thyroid. I used to get his book from the library but a few years ago, it was categorized 'missing' from the library stock.

On further investigation I couldn't find any printed books and his website had changed from informative to providing information only if you paid to enrol in his program of diet and exercise, etc.

It was interesting and helpful, but I don't ever recall him recommending nuts for protein, only meats and dairy depending on your gland type. Still, there it was interesting to know about the types and how to balance yourself somewhat.

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Re: raw foods and vata dosha incompatible?!!!!!!
Posted by: greenie ()
Date: July 11, 2007 07:54PM

aquadecoco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someone named Dr. Abrahms (Ithink), wrote about 4
> body types based on a dominant gland: adrenal,
> pituitary, gonad and thyroid. I used to get his
> book from the library but a few years ago, it was
> categorized 'missing' from the library stock.
>

[snip]

Dr. Eliot Abravanel, the body type diet. Very non-raw and only one body type is supposed to be vegetarian. It works for weight loss, but all the diets are very lo-cal, so they would.

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