i eat a pretty much nonfat raw diet. it consists of lettuce, tomatoes, carrots, berries, melon, papaya, greens, mangos, and some other odds and ends. my mom says that if i continue eating this way my metabolism will shut down, and she suspects it already has. she also says that sweet fruits are too sugary and that i'll gain weight or develop problems from eating just them.

i have eaten anywhere from 80-100% raw for the past year and a half or so, with varying elements. i used to drink coffee and eat tofu last summer and fall. i ate fats in the beginning of this year and now i have progressed to almost completely nonfat raw foods.

could this mess up my metabolism? and i never believed the sugar theory, but is there any hold to her claim? please help. i don't want any metabolism or weight gain issues.

Opinion: I don't think so.......although it certainly depends on many aspects of your lifestyle that we/I don't know about! My experience has been that I went a LONG time with only fruits.......before I re-acquired a taste for avocados.......where I ate no fat. I certainly didn't suffer any ill effects....far from it.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

a totally non fat raw diet has beeen documented by many raw food physicians (real M.D.'s, not online Ph.D's ) and traditional M.D.'s to lead to fatty acid deficiency in the long term. This has happened to a number of pure raw food eaters I know. It is very B-A-D. It leads to things like severely dry skin and hair which does not respond to moisurizing, scabby skin lesions on the face and body, eczema like erruptions on the body that don't heal, and cognitive brain decline...We all need some fat in our diet for proper hormonal functioning. Anorexics who do not eat raw but who eat a no fat diet also suffer from similar abnormalities. One woman raw foodist to whom this happened to is now on a high fatty acid oil supplementation diet. She eats small ( though larger than what she was used to before which was none at all..) amounts of nuts and seed daily and most importantly takes a few tablespoons of flax, hemp, olive, evening primrose and micro algae oil a day to help repair the damage and keep her insides well oiled and running well.


peace
love
courage
i breathe in
i breathe out
Bikini

i`m with bikini...our bodies are meant to have healthy fats. brain function and every other bodily function requires fat and oils.
patty

There are plenty of healthy fats in fruits and vegetables. If eating healthy fats is so great, why are all the high fat raw foodists leaving the raw diet (that is, reverting back to cooked foods)?

Bikini Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> a totally non fat raw diet has beeen documented by
> many raw food physicians (real M.D.'s, not online
> Ph.D's ) and traditional M.D.'s to lead to fatty
> acid deficiency in the long term. This has
> happened to a number of pure raw food eaters I
> know. It is very B-A-D. It leads to things like
> severely dry skin and hair which does not respond
> to moisurizing, scabby skin lesions on the face
> and body, eczema like erruptions on the body that
> don't heal, and cognitive brain decline...We all
> need some fat in our diet for proper hormonal
> functioning. Anorexics who do not eat raw but who
> eat a no fat diet also suffer from similar
> abnormalities. One woman raw foodist to whom this
> happened to is now on a high fatty acid oil
> supplementation diet. She eats small ( though
> larger than what she was used to before which was
> none at all..) amounts of nuts and seed daily and
> most importantly takes a few tablespoons of flax,
> hemp, olive, evening primrose and micro algae oil
> a day to help repair the damage and keep her
> insides well oiled and running well.
>
>
> peace
> love
> courage
> i breathe in
> i breathe out
> Bikini


can you provide the documentation, bikini?

> a totally non fat raw diet has beeen documented by
> many raw food physicians (real M.D.'s, not online
> Ph.D's ) and traditional M.D.'s to lead to fatty
> acid deficiency in the long term.

do you really mean what you've said above?
as bryan said, all fruits and veggies have fats.

a "totally non fat raw diet" is not possible.

I'm of the opinion that, at a certain point, a little fat goes a very long way....

hi all

The amounts of fats I'm refering to is not part of the high fat movement of raw foodists. I'm not saying people ought to eat 4-5 avocados a day plus jars of nut butters and coconut oils, slathering oils on their salads and constantly munching on fistfulls of nuts while eating high fat gourmet raw recipes. no, not that at all. I'm refering to taking in measured fats medicinally and judiciously just because your body needs them in addition to allowing yourself the pleasures of soaked and sprouted seeds. Fatty acid deficiency happens over time. Long term raw foodists who avoid fats have this happen. The quantity and percentage of raw fats in most fruits and vegetables is negligible and not of a quality high enough to make an improvement in skin and hormonal health fatty acid wise. Particularly after one's health has been compromised.

Current research on the importance of fats for brain and metabolic functioning does not espouse eating more cucumbers and leafy greens and apples to remedy the malfunctions for fatty acid deficiency.The only fatty fruits out there are avocados, coconut, durian and olives. Unfortunately they do not provide all the Omegas fats we need for long term health and for optimal well being and if one is avoiding fats altogether, they aren't including these fruits in their diet regardless.

The documentation you are looking for would be in a number of books, personal appointments I had with leading holistic health practitioners and with leaders in the raw food movement. I do not have all the names of the books and articles I've read for research at the moment (its a little late @ night right now...), but I do know the names and addresses of each of the holistic practitioners I've interacted with, and the leaders in the raw food movement who have been eating raw for a while and are honest about their stories when asked.

I would like to add that fatty acid deficiency seems to occur equaly in both sexes who eliminate fats and Omega fats from their diets. Remember, you don't need to eat a lot of good fats to take in their health benefits. However, no fat at all can be a set up for health problems.

peace
love
courage
i breathe in
i breathe out
Bikini

hmm from what i understand the defiency problems arrise is because people supplement with omega 3 and 6 say in the proper 2:1 ratio .. but they dont take into account the high amount of omega 6 already in most diets .. which then essentially quashes the omega 3's because this throws the balance right off

from what i understand it is more important to get the omega 3s which are readily available in avocados, coconuts, olives, nuts etc/

this is what i understood in nutrition classes

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

I've NEVER seen anyone look healthy on this kind of diet. But that's just my opinion. High fat is just as bad.

I would say that if you like the way people look on the Doug Grams diet, then go for it.

Even before the raw food diet went big, the low-fat and no-fat diet was big, and all those women, to me, looked haggled. You're young, but it will catch up to you, and wrinkles are very hard to reverse or soften.

You're very young, and I know many young people will only love those who tell them what they want to hear. Don't know if that is you.

MODERATE raw fat is where to be. It keeps your skin supple, and your skin needs both water and fat, to stay youthful.

Your brain needs good fats to stay sharp and chemically balanced. If this is not important to you, then again, go no-fat.

Too, much fruit, will catch up to you too. Too much sugar is hard on your adrenals, and eventially, your adrenals will be shot, and that ages your skin and body.

I don't have time to post proof, but I promise you, the proof is there, just look into it, and you will find out.

These two are longtime raw foodists. They are both on very different raw food diets. They are both beautiful. It just depends on which one you want to look like.

I'm in the Bikini and Rawrrr! camp.

I think moderate - not too high, not too low - whole foods containing their natural oils are really important in a sustainable and healthy raw diet. And Bryan, guess what? I'm not about to stop being raw!

In fact, I believe I've seen many people right here on this forum start 80/10/10 (low fat raw) and then revert back to cooked food. I don't think that necessarily proves anything, but Bryan, saying people who go high fat raw revert back to cooked food doesn't prove anything either, and it certainly doesn't say anything at all about a MODERATELY raw fat diet.

Where are all the people now who may have followed Arnold Ehret's Mucousless Diet system, a system that came out long before 80/10/10 and is based on fruits and vegetables, no nuts? Seems like if that concept worked really well, there would be a few people by now who have been doing it successfully for the last 30 years or more. Mucousless Diet was pretty big in the 70s. What happened to that?

love the pix.. but just an fyi..the older woman on the bike has the look I bet money on has been a raw vegan or strict cooked vegan low on good fat for many years while Carol Alt the super model (in the younger looking picture) is a raw foodist for a number of years who eats raw animal protein and raw grains and good raw oils and takes high quality supplements...

I wonder if that's the difference in their vitality..? Or if its the fats you're alluding to...? curious...


i breathe in
i breathe out
peace
joy
Bikini

Rawfrancois,

Just thought I'd add to my post that I think lots of fruit won't hurt you in any way.

Oh, one more thing. There's been times for me when I've eaten just fruits and veggies and no nuts or seeds, and I've gotten pretty constipated. Within maybe just a couple of minutes of eating just one or two nuts or just a few seeds, I'm off to the bathroom. Like some chemical signal that had been lacking suddenly kicked in!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2007 06:56AM by suncloud.

Hi rawfrancois- do you ever eat small amounts of flax or avos?

More importantly, how do you feel?

Bikini Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Fatty acid deficiency
> happens over time.


>Long term raw foodists who
> avoid fats have this happen.


>The quantity and
> percentage of raw fats in most fruits and
> vegetables is negligible and not of a quality high
> enough to make an improvement in skin and hormonal
> health fatty acid wise.


> Unfortunately they do not provide all the Omegas
> fats we need for long term health and for optimal
> well being and if one is avoiding fats altogether,
> they aren't including these fruits in their diet
> regardless.



I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying i don't see any proof of what you're saying, regarding any of your above statements...

there are omegas of both kinds in greens by the way.

I might have missed it, but, I imagine most see low fat as no more than 10% fat from calories. What is considered moderate or high to most people then??

Good question tanawana.

I consider moderate to be up to 30% fat, on a diet "sufficient" in calories. Obviously a couple of nuts on a day WITHOUT a lot of fruit (less calories) would come to a much higher fat percentage than a couple of nuts WITH a lot of fruit (more calories). Either way, it would be a couple of nuts, same AMOUNT of fat. And, perhaps even more important, same AMOUNT of OTHER nutrients supplied by the nuts.

To me, regardless of percent, I would consider any diet to be excessively low in fat and the OTHER nutrients available in oil-rich whole raw foods if the diet includes no "overt" fats. My personal concern actually is not so much the lack of fat (although that probably is a real concern), but the lack of other nutrients that are concentrated in oil-rich whole raw foods. Those nutrients include calcium, iron, zinc, selenium, and vitamin E.

MAYBE, on a diet of just fruits and vegetables, or on 80/10/10, it's POSSIBLE to get sufficient amounts of those nutrients, say 50% of the RDA for each, if a person is really careful to try to include foods that contain enough of those nutrients. But it seems to me that many advocates would rather assume that if they can't get enough nutrients from just fruits and vegetables (no nuts or seeds), or from 80/10/10, then the nutrients aren't needed, and the RDA is all just a meat industry conspiracy. Here is a classic example of inductive reasoning: "My diet is perfect, I don't get those nutrients on this diet, therefore, I don't need those nutrients". Unlike deductive reasoning (conclusion based on proof), inductive reasoning requires additional evidence before it can be considered valid.

Regarding 80/10/10, which might include a very SMALL portion of overt fats, I can't quite understand the logic of accepting science when it comes to calculating an 80/10/10 percentage based on the very scientific principle of the "calorie" and the importance of the carb/fat/protein MACROnutrients, yet discarding any scientific information regarding the importance of other nutrients.

But just to see if it can be done, and/or for the sake of the people who are eating only fruits/vegetables, or who are following 80/10/10, could people who follow such diets please list the foods that would be eaten on a typical day that would total out to meet just 50% DV, ie just half the RDA, for vitamin E, calcium, iron, zinc, and selenium, at around 2000 calories?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2007 09:01PM by suncloud.

[web.cast.uark.edu]


regarding wild primate diets discussed in above article:

the amounts of fat in the diets were very low, even at peak consumption levels; peak was only about 8.5% lipid, and the average annual intake was only about 2.5%. As a point of reference, humans do not need more than 3-5% fat on a dry matter basis in their diet, enough to provide the one essential fatty acid and the fat soluble vitamins (RDA, 1989). Modern, westernized humans consume 15-25% fat on a dry matter basis (usually referred to as 30-45% of calories consumed) (RDA, 1989), far in excess of need or recommendation (Butrum et al., 1988)

NOTE: 3-5% fat on a dry matter basis translates to 6-10% by calorie basis.

umm...yeah, lifestyle factors...

also

people probably SHOULD eat a wide array of raw foods (including fats) until their body's intelligence dictates otherwise, not based on some system or program.

If someone feels comfortable excluding nuts/seeds, keeping avos as their fat source, or eating no fats at all. They can certainly try such a thing for an extended period without much detriment I would think. The problem would come with ignoring any odd symptoms or 'deficiencies' based on some others logic as to what is right and what is "enough".

I think the Matt Monarch interview dipped into this a bit, of course it comes right out of Fred B. about how high amounts of fruit can eventually "leach alkaline minerals out of the skeletal frame" which is just another way of saying, without attention to one's detox/cleansing your body CAN leech minerals from your system, no matter how much is coming in, in the form of foods and supplements. Making it NOT the fruits (or assumed lack of minerals/variety) at all! So while the above generalizations could be accurate about many people who have followed the mucusless system or a fruitarian diet, it probably isn't intrinsic to what people are eating, but many of the lifestyle/cleansing factors involved.

One thing about Fred, is he touts his "romaine and rats" diet to prove one really would be better off with just leaving all the 'crap' out...then talks about how some raw fooders can run into long term issues without nuts. My only conclusion for this type of incongruity is that he writes books for the general (ha, well raw general) population that might be opposed to the internal cleansing, the juicing, fasting (water, juice) and systematic under-eating concepts he also addresses.

so I guess, in closing, if one is 'into raw foods' and 'eatin healthy', and thats where they are at in their lifestyle, they probably should be including a wide array of foods, including sproutable nuts/seeds (if they can find them!)

but my other two-cents is:

Maybe the people who were on the mucusless diet in the 70's are still living in joy and following their dreams, yet don't much care for the internet. ha!

but if I had to throw in my completely unscientific opinion/observation I'd say that the 'high-fat diet' 'failures' are an overexaggeration/myth (any more then any raw diet) and that people that are failing on all fruit/high fruit turn to the meat/high-protein diet (death) often.

Also, What's wrong with proudly proclaiming you live off fat and chocolate if you are living in joy and attuned to your mission. beats angry - fuel of my fruit tank - Joe WannaBAthlete's punishment program ANYDAY. Many people in the former category I see enjoying great spiritual and physical health, whether they will succumb to diabetes or heart attacks we shall see, but I seriously doubt it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2007 11:03PM by anaken.

also as for the RDA's. I hear folks talk about how they eat 'A' brazil nut EVERY day for their selenium ( I can only visualize this as in the Jack and the Bean Stalk where the folks are gathered around and carving into the brazil nut with a knife and dividing it, because I can't see someone having a side of 'A' brazil nut with their salad.

Now the curious thing is, what if you lived in a place where you never heard of a brazil nut, or selenium for that matter. would you DIE?

haha I guess a twist would be what if you never heard of a brazil nut, but you heard of selenium, then would you die?

Hi, anaken,

Thanks for all your input!

Regarding the selenium, 1/2 cup of sesame seeds will give you over 50% DV. So there's one more!

I don't eat any fat, at all. Yes, yes, I know there's negligible amounts of fat in the spinach, lettuce, etc. that I eat, but I don't count that. In a typical day I'll have some berries, melon, a salad or cherry tomatoes/carrots, a little tropical fruit like mango or papaya, and maybe another serving of raw vegetable or fruit (like an apple) later. It comes up to anywhere from 700-900+ calories a day, with about 6 or 7 grams of fat according to my nutrition planner.

Frankly, I think Carol Alt is far more beautiful than the first woman depicted and I agree, these nonfat diets can cause people to look haggard. I guess my problem is that I'm afraid of avocados to some extent. I feel like I'd have to go to the gym for several hours to work off 350 calories and 21 grams of fat in an avocado. Oils and nuts are out of the question - they are rarely fresh around here and I wouldn't consider using them as my fat source. I wish I knew how much Carol Alt ate, but she's probably a typical celebrity who lies about her diet. I've been considering buying her book, though, for a long time.

I feel fine. I black out sometimes, not to the extent of fainting, when I haven't eaten enough in a day. I feel like I am missing something, but once again, I'm afraid of the avos because of so many perpetuated myths that you will gain weight and get fat from them. I don't even want to maintain. I'm trying to lose a lot of weight and I don't know how to fit them into my diet.

Rawfrancois,

How much weight do you want to lose? The caloric intake is borderline anorexic and you also mention blackouts! This would worry me a lot! You are not only losing weight, but you are endangering your health. If you are so afraid of avocados at least eat more fruits and veggies to get to a healthy calorie count (at least around 1500). Try to lose weight slowlier - I'm sure you haven't put it on in a few months but in a good number of years.

I'm on the moderate fat camp. And my proof hits home - my sister, who started on the mucousless diet and then non fat strict vegan (some cooked too), with a lot of fasting and cleansing looks worse than the older woman in those photos. She is VERY skinny, although she feels fine otherwise. She always had a lot of energy, even on a pizza-chocolate-beer diet, so that's no measure for me. But she looks just scary to me. I'd rather eat crap than looking like that. sorry folks.

love,
peace
cricri

I'm trying to lose about 20-30 lbs. I'm 5'7" and I weigh about 130, I think. My scale is broken, but it's only a few lbs. off. I'm going to start including fats once a week and see what happens from there. I appreciate your concern. Yeah. I would rather be healthy thin with beautiful, youthful skin than emaciated thin with dried out, lackluster skin, and wrinkling, I suppose.

Rawfrancois,

The signature photo is the way you look now? You look amazing. When you said you want to lose a lot of weight I imagined you were severely overweight. You look very healthy, at least weight wise. Take care and listen to your body!

Cricri

Losing weight because you need to is one thing, losing weight because you want to and don't need to is another. You look borderline of being too thin now imo. Why do you want to go to the extreme end of being thin? Of course you can do what you want and if you stay healthy that's great, if you create health problems because you want to be a 'certain' weight, then plan on being miserable in the future.

Love,
Prism

Rawfrancois....all of us are trying to give you loving advise. I can't speak for cricri, but Prism and I are moms, so take that for what it's worth. Youa re BEAUTIFUL! and if you look like your picture, you look perfect (but a little on the thin side). For your age and height, the MINIMUM recommended weight is 127, with a BMI of 20. Like Prism said, you can do what you want to, but many times our brains don't tell us the truth about ourselves or how we look. IMO...you don't need to lose any weight...in fact, you shouldn't.

Regarding Carol Alt..she is not vegan, but is raw. Here is an interesting interview where she talks about her lifestyle and how/why she got turned onto raw foods.

[www.pr.com]

If you're choosing a no-fat raw vegan diet just to lose weight, you're missing the point. Your mother is probably right because she's watching the whole scene - your motivation, progress, choices, etc.

Choosing an arbitrary goal weight, bypassing your body's wisdom, is as NEANDERTHAL as eating cooked flesh and as RIDICULOUS as eating SWD. Throw out your scale and learn to listen to yourself, with help from other's experiences.

If a body is healthy, it won't be fat.

rawfrancois do you have a history of eating disorder? ..if so that might be why your mom is alarmed at your current way of eating

retricting calories, fearing food, fearing fats even healthy ones, obssesive exercising , blacking out , fainting are all signs that something is wrong

it sounds like you are a very active (and beautiful ) young woman so to fear 350 calories once or twice a week seems a bit obsessive doesnt it? there are people that consume twice the amount of total calories you do everyday and are very healthy and active and beautiful

now if you were sitting on the couch all day eating nothing but avo after avo .. then you could see a problem arising over time

if you are 5'7 and 130 lbs wanting to lose 30lbs that is very thin even for someone with a small frame, i read your blog about wanting to do modeling , please dont sicken/kill yourself to do it

i posted this in another thread about ED's , it was a cartoon that i cant seem to find at the moment but

this stick thin woman walks into a clothing store and on the shelves are coffins and on the racks hang body bags ... her question to the sales person

do you have anything in a size 1?

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist