i`m with the recent posters lav...i think you`re beautiful. and i think you`re at a great weight now. i`m 5`7" also and 110 or even 120 is too thin for your height. i weighed 126 at one point and everyone told me i looked unhealthy. granted it is about how we feel personally not how others perceive us but you seem to be a very intuitive, health oriented person so you must know eating raw isn`t only about weight. being a model is an awesome goal, but please be a healthy, beautiful model who can also be a role model to children. so many young girls of like 8 years old and up are being treated for eating disorders because they try to look like a supermodel. alot of those supermodels are anorexic or bulimic and very screwed up in the head. they are paranoid about losing their careers because of the next younger thinner chick that comes along. they starve themselves lav and you are so much better than that. an 8 year old with an eating disorder just kills me! and most of it is because of the role models and unachievable results.
patty

Tragic that the only two, supporting this lovely ladie, to go virtually no fat, are men.

Two Brazillian models, sisters, died, not too long ago. One of the girls, was mono dieting on tomatoes. Her sister pulled a simular stunt, and died a few months after her sister did.

There is no man or entity on this planet, that would make me starve myself, so I can have a little boy body, that some men like on women. Besides, I feel sexy with curves and some T & A.

I'm 5'5 and 113-114 That is my normal weight. I NEVER diet & I eat a lot. But I'm small boned. My daughter, is 5'7 and 130 lbs. She wears the EXACT same size as I do & we share clothes. She is bigger boned & naturally more muscular. She's a hottie & has it goin on.

If you don't eat fat, your body will think it's starving, and try to hold onto the fat, that it has. If you eat healthy raw fat, your body lets go of the bad fat, built up throught the years, and replaces it with the healthy fat.

You are what you eat. Low protien = low muscle. Low/no fat = skin and bones (and dat aint sexy). Just look around, and you will see, that is true. A good balance of protien/fat/carbs = a hot body, if you work out with weights, and do a little cardio.

This is my opionion, and not up for debates with men with ED's.

Take care, babes!

Rawfrancois, please try sesame seeds! Yes, they're harvested and dried, but all you have to do is soak them overnight and then rinse and drain them. Then they're SO FRESH that they're ready to start growing (if you happen to toss them on the ground)!

Sesame seeds are lower in fat than most nuts, but they are so nutritious that even a small amount will give you lots calcium, zinc, iron, and even selenium. Those nutrients are crucial if you want to stay beautiful, VIVACIOUS, and healthy.

Sesame seeds DO have calories, but try not to be afraid of calories from raw food. It's a totally different thing! In a given day, I usually eat up to 1/2 cup of sesame seeds (just over 400 calories). I soak them overnight, and they bulk up to more than 1/2 cup. Plus I eat other nuts in the same day, like soaked peanuts (which are also fresh and delicious) and brazil nuts.

Rawfrancois, nuts and seeds won't make you fat! I only weigh 91 - 93 pounds (I'm much shorter though, at 5'1". But I eat close to 2000 calories a day. If I can eat that many calories in a day at only 5'1" and weigh this little, post- menopause even, well you, as a young person, can certainly eat enough to be healthy and beautiful all at the same time. And that includes nuts and seeds.

It all works because not only is the food raw, but because you can and should exercise! It doesn't have to be for 3 hours a day. But part of beauty comes from strength and happiness. Both come from exercise. Now, when you're very young is the best time to start with an exercise program (though not the only time, of course!).

About nuts. Nature made nuts to be able to retain all their nutrition and life-giving qualities for a considerable amount of time. And that's especially true for cold-climate nuts. That's because after they fall, they'll often have to remain dormant and live until the following Spring. If nuts (or seeds), are stale or rancid, you'll notice that when you eat them, and you won't WANT to eat them. But if they're crunchy, and the oil in them tastes good, well then, they're just fine to eat.

If you haven't eaten nuts for some time, and you're all raw, you'll often OVEReat them at first, because your body is wanting to suck them up like a sponge. Once you get back some needed nutrition though, that won't happen. The strength you attain from exercise also helps with digesting the nuts/seeds, and that is just exactly how it should be. We're supposed to move, we need to eat well to do that, and together, good food and exercise will make us healthy, strong, and beautiful.

Don't be ruled by your fears. Experiment! Give it a chance, include exercise, and see how your beautiful body will respond!

PS: I just saw your post rawrrr! Right on. LOL!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2007 06:13PM by suncloud.

Rawrrr! Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------
> Tragic that the only two, supporting this lovely
> ladie, to go virtually no fat, are men.
>

avos and olives and other high fat foods are not widely available in natural areas around the world. so your belief points to the conclusion that humans are not meant to thrive on this earth, but only in areas where avocados and olives naturally grow.

> Two Brazillian models, sisters, died, not too long
> ago. One of the girls, was mono dieting on
> tomatoes. Her sister pulled a simular stunt, and
> died a few months after her sister did.

and this has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

> There is no man or entity on this planet, that
> would make me starve myself, so I can have a
> little boy body, that some men like on women.
> Besides, I feel sexy with curves and some T & A.

you have some issues with men that are distorting your opinion.
nobody said that she should starve herself.

> If you don't eat fat, your body will think it's
> starving, and try to hold onto the fat, that it
> has. If you eat healthy raw fat, your body lets go
> of the bad fat, built up throught the years, and
> replaces it with the healthy fat.


it's not possible to not eat fat.
it's just a matter of how much you think is healthy.
but you, like many others keeps on using phrases like "don't eat fat", as if low fat foods don't contain fat.


> You are what you eat. Low protien = low muscle.
> Low/no fat = skin and bones (and dat aint sexy).
> Just look around, and you will see, that is true.
> A good balance of protien/fat/carbs = a hot body,
> if you work out with weights, and do a little
> cardio.

actually the amount of calories might have something to do with it to, but you can't be convinced otherwise.

> men with ED's.

not sure why you feel a need for a personal attack/slur, and (if ED means eating disorder) what personal information do you have about said men that indicates to you that "they" have an eating disorder.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2007 06:24PM by fresh.

I did read one of Carol Alts books and she doesn't seem to quite follow a typical raw diet. Don't know if she has changed since and if that matters to anyone.

fresh, just thought I'd mention that although avocados and olives only grow in the warmer climates, nuts and/or seeds grow everywhere that veggies grow.

I guess rawrrr's statement was a little blunt, but it does seem to be the case that anorexics have a major fear that eating oil-rich food - even raw whole foods containing their natural oils - will make them fat.

It's probably true that not all people who abstain from oil-rich natural foods are anorexic (yet?). But to dismiss all whole raw oil-rich foods as bad for you or unnecessary is definitely in line with an anorexic outlook, and in either case, I've found that in my experience, that outlook is unhealthy.

To me it's a SAD concept, just like the idea that eating lots of protein from beef will make you strong like a bull!

I think this is possibly a very huge debate at the current time, maybe even huger than the debate on B12. To me, it seems natural that anyone would be attracted to such an idea especially at the beginning of a raw food diet, and it's probably even a very healthy way to go at first for cleansing (detoxing) the body. But the idea of abstaining from all nuts and seeds as a sustainable diet seems unjustified and unhealthy, lacking in nutrients, and usually unsuccessful anyway.

What terrible thing is expected to happen to someone who eats all or nearly all raw whole vegan foods, gets all or a major portion of their nutrients (including protein) at say 65/30/5, and is able to retain a slender, strong body? Diabetes, heart attacks? what? (thanks for that excellent point anaken).

I've personally become very disillusioned with Dr. Grahams writings, because intentionally or not, I feel they take advantage of people's fears accumulated during their life before going raw.

Raw is different, it's not magic, but it's definitely not meant to be torture either. It's simply the way all other animals eat in the wild. And nuts and seeds are a very natural part of that way of life.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2007 07:14PM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh, just thought I'd mention that although
> avocados and olives only grow in the warmer
> climates, nuts and/or seeds grow everywhere that
> veggies grow.

i'm not saying never have any.
for anyone who puts any stock in natural conditions, the amount would be very small.

>But the idea of
> abstaining from all nuts and seeds as a
> sustainable diet seems unjustified and unhealthy,
> lacking in nutrients, and usually unsuccessful
> anyway.

people can say anything they want.
until it's backed up with some analysis, it means very little.

>
> What terrible thing is expected to happen to
> someone who eats all or nearly all raw whole vegan
> foods, gets all or a major portion of their
> nutrients (including protein) at say 65/30/5, and
> is able to retain a slender, strong body?

not much point in commenting on such a hypothetical person except to say that at 30% fat, i would expect problems in some people such as candida, digestive issues, energy issues and others.

> Raw is different, it's not magic, but it's
> definitely not meant to be torture either. It's
> simply the way all other animals eat in the wild.
> And nuts and seeds are a very natural part of that
> way of life.

there's a difference between saying that natural animals eat them, and we REQUIRE them. there's no evidence to me that we require them.

and nobody here is saying that higher fat foods should be avoided altogether.

the real point that people seem to be missing here is that rawfrancois may be undereating and under exercising, and these issues have nothing to do with fat.

Rawfrancois, if you're using the scale to determine your worth, then you're using it as an instrument of self-abuse. ..... you could just as easily pick it up and hit yourself with it.

People who think this way might as well wear a sandwich board proclaiming, "I FEEL INADEQUATE" "I HATE MYSELF" "I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH" or a big L on their forehead .... etc.

I'm NOT advocating chubbiness - I think people were meant to be slim. But we're meant to be slim because that's healthy, not to bow to cultural 'shoulds'.

I think natural conditions, etc. are beside the point here. In my opinion, encouraging someone with extreme (and unhealthy) goals of weight loss - and a fear of foods that might stand in the way of that goal - is totally irresponsible.

Rawfrancois, please don't contine pursuing that kind of weight loss. I'm also about 5'7" and in my 20's. I weigh 125, and everyone always asks me how I stay so thin. And honestly, last time I was 100% raw for a 6 mo. stretch, I dropped to 112 llbs, give or take..and looked AWFUL. My friends, my family, my doctor all expressed concerns, as that was NOT a healthy weight, and it showed. (and this was while consuming avocado, seeds & nuts).

I have seen MANY girls throughout highschool & college who did the non-fat very low-cal diet. Their skin got dry and broke out. Their hair got brittle and thin. Their eyes sunk. You are gorgeous. Let raw take its course, but please don't take it too far. There is pretty much NO WAY you're going to get "fat" if you follow a fresh, raw diet (with vegetable fats).

I think perhaps the men aren't encouraging her to starve herself, per se, it's just that they don't understand (at all, clearly) the way women approach, think about, and often obsess over food and weight. It is often quite literally a battle.

All I can say, Rawfrancois, is that you're on a dangerous, negative path. I speak from experience. Please take care - and seek help if necessary - before it gets out of control.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2007 09:19PM by Ashcat.

well I think theirs some discrepency here between theory and what's appropriate for the poster. What I said was strictly a general response to the question.

With more info, I can say that I agree that the motivations/goals are all wrong and the fears of eating a variety of foods containing some fats are misplaced/inaccurate. seemingly contradictory to that statement, I think that if one is losing internal wastes, one could drop to that numerical weight per height and not look too skinny or unhealthy at all. But I do agree, that you look pretty good and are far too young to have any kind of punishment plan, not desiring (feeling good - not spacey) fat is totally different than fearing fats or having some external regiment of low/no fats.

Ashcat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think natural conditions, etc. are beside the
> point here. In my opinion, encouraging someone
> with extreme (and unhealthy) goals of weight loss
> - and a fear of foods that might stand in the way
> of that goal - is totally irresponsible.
>

none of the "men" are being irresponsibile in the least. how absurd.

mine and others responses were not to rawfrancois, but to another poster who made what i would say are invalid statements about fats.

with that said, with respect to rawfrancois, i would suggest the following:

-regarding her original question about metabolism: No. don't worry about it.
-regarding worrying about losing weight. focus on being healthy and doing things like exercise and eating in abundance. the raw diet is not about fear and deprivation.
-do not be afraid of avocados
-feel free to eat avocados without being excessive
-your weight loss goals are extreme and unhealthy. relax and let your body do what it wants to do.
- you are undereating. eat more without forcing yourself.

of course, what i or anyone else says won't mean anything unless rawfrancois believes it and incorporates it into her reality...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2007 10:02PM by fresh.

To be fair, fresh, I didn't write that the men were being irresponsible. I said that the male posters were giving advice that didn't appear to take into account the place that rawfrancois is coming from. I understand that you were responding to a more general debate re: the nature and necessity of fats, and think your most recent post to rawfrancois personally was very much on point.

That said, I still feel that posts championing a no-fat raw diet in the context of a thread started by someone who has a clear tedency toward, if not full blown, eating disorder are irresponsible.

I believe that raw - in its variety of forms - is a great, healthful lifestyle. Yet, the fact remains that it is often abused by anorexics and others with body image disorders as a way to legitimize their disease. And, ulitimately, doesn't that hurt everyone?

Well fresh,

I agree with what you said, "in natural conditions, the amount (of nuts/seeds) would be very small".

As far as abstaining from nuts and seeds altogether, I guess the proof is in the pudding (or maybe the custardy white sapote or something).

Whatever the case, there's probably nothing that can be said here to prove that nuts and seeds are healthy or that nuts and seeds are not.

I'd just say, don't knock it 'til you've tried it. I mean really TRIED it, really tried eating a MODERATE amount of nuts/seeds in combination with EXERCISE. If going WITHOUT nuts and seeds doesn't get you quite where you want to be, if even eating lots of fruits and veggies, including avos, but no nuts and seeds doesn't quite get you where you want to be, then you don't have to blame yourself or go back to eating cooked foods.

Instead, you can try eating nuts and seeds.

Avocados don't supply the concentrated level of minerals that nuts and seeds will supply.

Yesterday I went out and picked the first 10 sharwil avocados of this season from my own avocado trees. I am stoked! I LOVE avocados. But I'm also very much looking forward to picking up the first macadamia nuts from my own macadamia nut trees later this month.

If people have a problem with nuts because they aren't perceived as being fresh enough, well then, a good thing to do would be to get together with other people, buy a little vacant lot somewhere, and plant some of their very own nut trees. You can eat them all winter long just like the squirrels do. Nuts go dormant for winter, but stay live. They're good for you and they're fresh as long as they're crunchy and the oil is not rancid.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2007 11:35PM by suncloud.

fair enough, ashcat.

excellent ideas suncloud.

well, if we want to throw around the word irresponsible.

lets not assume someone has an eating disorder, even if something mimics your experience/patterns.


"I experienced this which led to this etc..." is different then "YOU are experiencing this"

Sigh. It's true that my experiences are my own. I am also not a doctor. But I very, very seriously doubt that there is a medical professional alive who would advocate a 5'7" teenager dropping 30 lbs to weigh 100. Or eating well under 1000 calories a day to do so.

If you think that is a healthy goal, or represents a healthy mindset about food, that is your choice.

extremely retricting calories on a long term basis, fearing food, fearing fats even healthy ones, obssesive exercising go get rid of so called fats , blacking out , not eating to the point of nearly fainting are all signs of an eating disorder

not to say something or question that to me or even express a little concern is irresponsible regardless of mine or anyones experience .. how can you not see these as wrong?

rawfrancois has said she is eating under 1000 calories a day
rawfrancois has said she is fearing certain foods
rawfrancois has said she is fearing fats
rawfrancois has said she is making a point of exercising excessively to get rid of said fats
rawfrancois has said she is blacking out nearly fainting

how can you NOT assume she is eating in a disorderly fashion, none of the above is normal OR healthy

sorry my mind is just boggled by the direction of this conversation

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2007 05:03AM by Jgunn.

The guys who answered about the low-fat diet did so before Rawfrancois mentioned some very important details - like dizziness, very low caloric intake and her goals. Her second post puts a very different slant on her diet.

This situation - using a low-fat, raw, vegan diet to create a marketable body, -irritates me. It's like a fortunate person going regularly to church solely to pray for more riches. It's perverse. It lacks honour and respect for what is intrinsic to all life.

yes, the original posts were written in theory, and if you read carefully DID have disclaimers about intentions etc..even before they were given. I'm not saying I disagree with you jGunn and others, I do not. But some of the responses, although i'm sure were given out of true concern, could have been worded differently.

With so much talk of "fat" being bad for you, even here on a raw food website, and including even the "fat" coming from oil-rich and nutrient-rich whole raw foods like nuts and seeds, I wonder about the effect that has on all potential anorexics out there in internetland, especially those who may be coming to this raw food website to find some relief from such fears.

I know with 80/10/10 there is emphasis placed on getting enough calories, but it definitely seems like there is very LITTLE emphasis placed on getting enough nutrition, and indeed, talk of nutrition is often equated with SAD. I really believe that the biggest draw to 80/10/10 is the desire to lose weight, and not necessarily the desire to be healthy.

And it may actually be healthy for people FOR A WHILE, as they clean out from a previous SAD diet, and especially if they're overweight to begin with. But IMO, after a while, if people become nutrient deficient, their health WILL suffer.

With so little emphasis placed on nutrition, it seems inevitable that people will take 80/10/10 a next very tiny step and abstain from all raw "overt fats", considering them to be totally unnecessary and even unhealthy, when in fact they are packed with necessary nutrients. And when people advise others that it's OK to do that, even that it's preferable for their health, that could have devastating consequences not just for the person who is being told that over the internet (without knowing anything of their background), but for every other potential anorexic who is reading it. And often such advice comes with a statement like, "as long as you're getting enough calories, you'll be getting enough of everything else you need". UNTRUE!

Ironically, raw whole nuts and seeds won't even make a person fat. Sometimes I just think it's a crying shame.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2007 06:21PM by suncloud.

After saying all that, I just wanted to add that in my experience (for whatever it's worth) nuts and seeds should always be purchased ORGANIC. The NONorganic nuts and seeds can make a person very sick.

suncloud Wrote:

> "fat" coming from oil-rich and nutrient-rich whole
> raw foods like nuts and seeds,

do i need to soak them to release the nutrients or am i ok to just eat them? i love nuts and seeds so they`re a staple of my diet.
patty

Hi dewey,

I soak my sesame seeds and other seeds (including peanuts). Mainly, they taste better to me that way. They may also be easier to digest if they're soaked, but I don't notice much difference myself. One advantage of soaking is that I end up with more bulk when they're soaked, so I don't eat as much.

I personally don't soak nuts, and I don't find them hard to digest unsoaked. Others may differ on that, and that's OK.

IMO it may just be up to the individual whether to soak or not to soak.

Recently I stopped eating sunflower seeds altogether, because after years of eating them, I found them difficult to digest, soaked or unsoaked.

IMO nonorganic nuts and seeds should never be eaten, soaked or unsoaked.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2007 07:10PM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
who is
> reading it. And often such advice comes with a
> statement like, "as long as you're getting enough
> calories, you'll be getting enough of everything
> else you need". UNTRUE!
>
> Ironically, raw whole nuts and seeds won't even
> make a person fat. Sometimes I just think it's a
> crying shame.

suncloud,


i think what you're claiming is that nuts and seeds are required and that it is inevitable to have nutrient deficiency without them.

have you ever compared a sample diet to the nutrient requirements?
if so, would you like to share it with us ?

Some people think diet is all about data tables and never seem to consider the most important factors:

People + Contexts


We all have valid experiences here, for better or worse and we all have different needs within differing contexts.

Yes fresh, that's pretty much what I'm saying. To clarify it just a little, here's what I'm saying:

In regard to an all raw vegan diet, it is inevitable to have nutrient deficiency (for SOME nutrients, definitely not ALL nutrients) without nuts and seeds.

Yes, I have compared my own diet to the nutrient requirements - many times. Certainly not everyday, but more as a way to see what nutrients I might be lacking, and what raw foods I need to add that will give me the best chance of averaging at least 50% of the RDA for all of them.

I can do that fairly easily with nuts and seeds.

Here's a sample for one day that I came up with in about 2 minutes:

5 bananas
1/2 avocado
1 cucumber
2 cups grapes
2 cups mangos
2 nectarines
5 oranges
1 brazil nut
1 tbsp of parsley
1/2 cup sesame seeds

This would supply over 50% of all the nutrients listed on fitday and nutritiondata.com, except that it's deficient in B12 (which doesn't come anywhere from vegan), vitamin D (which you can get from the sun), and sodium.

People concerned about sodium deficiency can add some seaweed, or some celtic salt if they're into it (I'm not).

The carb/fat/protein ratio is 70/24/6.

Now, I will ask the same of you:

Have you ever compared a sample diet to the nutrient requirements?
If so, would you like to share it with us? (I like keeping this on a lighter nonpersonal note. Thanks fresh)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2007 09:46PM by suncloud.

That stupid supermodel eats a ton of cooked foods, dead animals, has never cleansed her insides at all, and wears plentiful makeup not to mention being obviously younger and more shade-seeking/photoshopped than the person in the other photograph (whose health history we know nothing about.) Would you like to pretend to be some ugly-inside, meat eating, capitalist holywood fraud with ghostwritten books, or would you actually like to live a healthy, sustainable lifestyle? The choice is yours.

But I don't think a little bit of overt fat once in a while is really going to be harmful in a general sense. I personally have real health reasons due to my personal history for avoiding more than a small amount of fat, so I listen to my body on that.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2007 10:12PM by dream earth.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Have you ever compared a sample diet to the
> nutrient requirements?
> If so, would you like to share it with us?

I have. and i have no trouble without nuts and seeds.
with some caveats regarding sodium and calcium being inflated in the official figures.

however, i will try to model what you've done

Banana, raw
Avocado, raw
Cucumber, raw
Grapes, raw, NS as to type
Mango, raw
Nectarine, raw
Orange, raw
Lettuce, cos or romaine, raw
Celery, raw
2056 calories

the above in fitday fulfills the same requirements that you specified.
yes, i know it's more calories.

importantly, i would like to add that zinc and selenium in fitday are inflated, as compared to several other sources. this inflation allows my nut/seed-less sample to fulfill. i could take more time and fulfill your requirements better...

in addition, excess zinc (and other nutrients as well) can cause big problems in the body.

other things to consider:

- what i'm opposed to is you being so critical of other espousing their views, and saying that people are irresponsible,etc.

various diets can fulfill requirements or not.

nuts and seeds don't automatically hit magic nutrient numbers.

how many people do you know can get really fresh nuts and seeds?
if they are not fresh they can cause not minor problems, as you know.

Yes aquadecoco, that's true.

And how DO we determine what our own individual needs are? If we don't look at any charts, do we think maybe our overwhelming cravings might be a symptom of deficiency, or do we chalk that up to lack of willpower? How do we know the difference? Blind faith in a chosen raw food guru who might be telling us just what we want to hear? Do we wait until we're far enough down the road to deficiency that we start regularly having some of the more obvious symptoms like losing too much weight, fainting spells, blackouts, tingling in the feet and hands, lack of luster in the hair, lack of energy, a looseness of the skin?

People/context are factors, definitely. But it's also true that until people actually experience some of the really bad symptoms of deficiency, they often don't think those little nutrients are very important. That appears to be true whether a person is raw vegan or not. After experiencing some of those deficiency symptoms myself, after many years of being high and all raw, and being able to correct them by (OMG) looking at the charts, I now appreciate having the charts.

You may not agree, many may not agree, but I like putting this out there, just so people will know they do have this option. There's nothing SAD about it. For the most part, SADs never look at charts. At least the raw vegan 80/10/10 people already look at charts to confirm their ratio. IMO, for people who suspect they may be deficient on a raw food diet, looking at the charts is a better option than (1) giving up raw and going back to eating cooked food, or (2) living (or dying) with deficiency symptoms.

suncloud,

briefly,

when you had problems, what was your diet like?
- did you eat enough calories
- how much dehydrated food
- how much blending/juicing
- how much nuts/seeds
what nutrients would you say you were low in
and are you saying that nuts seeds fix your problem.