suncloud,

>And often such advice comes with a statement like, "as long as you're getting >enough calories, you'll be getting enough of everything else you need". UNTRUE!

people do not say that.
they only say that in relation to protein.

and my comment in this thread regarding calories was only with respect to her blacking out.

Hi fresh,

Hard for me to check your foods for nutrients without the quantities. Could you possibly include the quantities?

I agree with you about the sodium.

Do you think 50% of the official calcium figure is inflated? Why?

I know that many people (especially women) need at least 50% of the official calcium figure to keep from having toe and leg cramps at night.

Where does the selenium come from in your list?

In your opinion is 50% of the RDA for zinc in excess? If so, do you have information to share with us that shows that it is?

I agree that a diet including nuts/seeds doesn't automatically hit magic nutrient numbers. There probably isn't ANY diet AUTOMATICALLY does, including a raw food vegan diet WITHOUT nuts/seeds.

The freshness of nuts and seeds? Unless seeds are very old, seeds are refreshed as soon as they're soaked. If people wonder if their seeds are fresh enough, try putting them on a little soil or just sprouting them. Nuts are fresh enough as long as they're crunchy, and as long as their oil doesn't taste rancid. It would be good if there were more nut trees everywhere, so growers aren't tempted to sell year-old crops, but for the most part, true nuts are programmed to stay dormant and live for a long time, because they have to wait for the next season to sprout into little trees.

By the way, just to set the record straight, I never used the word "irresponsible" in any of my posts. I've been irresponsible about a whole lot of things throughout my entire life, so for me to call anyone irresponsible would be total hypocracy! But I DO have a different opinion, and this IS a forum.

fresh, I probably won't get back to you at least until tomorrow. Too much to do!

Have a nice day, everyone, please!

Dear fresh,

I honestly wasn't referring to you when I expressed my opposition to statements about people getting enough nutrients from just fruits and vegetables as long as they get enough calories. To be clear, I wasn't reffering to anyone in this thread at all, but I HAVE seen people say just that on other threads - often - and their statement wasn't referring to just protein.

Sorry if that was misunderstood. The post where I said that was meant as a general statement opposing that particular point of view, and the danger of expressing it often on a raw food website where anorexics might easily pick it up.

I'll answer your other questions regarding my personal history later. Sorry, no more time, but I wanted to clear up any misunderstandings I might have caused from another post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2007 11:27PM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi fresh,
>
> Hard for me to check your foods for nutrients
> without the quantities. Could you possibly
> include the quantities?

i lost my qtys

the numbers were the same as yours except more bananas, 8 or 10
and the lettuce was .5 or 1 lb
and the celery 5 sticks i think



> Do you think 50% of the official calcium figure is
> inflated? Why?

no. 50% is ok there. i meant the gov rdi, not 50% of it.


> Where does the selenium come from in your list?

i don't recall. many people think it's only in nuts, when it's in many foods.
probably the bananas and greens.

>
> In your opinion is 50% of the RDA for zinc in
> excess? If so, do you have information to share
> with us that shows that it is?

no, what i'm saying there is that the Fitday reference numbers are higher than i've seen elsewhere. same for selenium.
so your 50% target would be less.


> The freshness of nuts and seeds? Unless seeds are
> very old, seeds are refreshed as soon as they're
> soaked.


i was under the impression from various sources that they are often rancid.
and i don't think soaking them makes it all better.

>and as long as their oil doesn't
> taste rancid.

it's not clear to me, and probably not to others, what rancid tastes like.
it can be very subtle.

how DO we determine what our own individual needs are?


Well Science is not the almighty that many people deem it....it's a bunch of business opportunities, institutions and average people who got good marks in university,

The public has a shortsighted perspective on Science. They ignore the constant refutations, confusions, conflicts, etc rife amongst scientists. When a new 'study' is done, they all gulp down the conclusions, memorize them and loyally adhere to them, till a NEWER study refutes the old.

How do the Hunza live so well and so long? Not by checking their mineral intake online. Sheer dumb luck? Maybe partly, but there's probably innate wisdom in that culture, as well.

Science tries to understand the world, but it doesn't determine it. The rules are the rules, whether we understand nothing or a lot. I don't think there's anything wrong with using science to help ourselves, but that's not the same as refering to Science for all your knowledge.


Do we SEEM like an advanced race? Not to me. Do you wanna bet that a lot of commonly accepted dietary rules will be significantly altered in the next five years? How many people can step back and look at the larger picture - we have enough knowledge to live better, we just don't have the intelligence (as a race).

I am still learning about all of this...
Do you, who are in the moderate fat group, have any issues combining your fats with raw, fresh fruits and veggies? When and how much fat (ie, 1 Tbs. flax seeds, 1 avocado /per day) do you eat?
Thank you.

For the sake of broadening the information here, I'd just like to add my experience with nuts and seeds this far.
For about the last 6 or 7 year since becoming vegan I've found them harder and harder to handle.

The list of effects I can remember from eating them were tiredness, heavy digestion (like acidic stomach), A dull ache in my lower back when I lay down (especialy in bed at night), dry eyes, stiff joints and mussles which were susceptable to locking up.

About two years ago I heard about the benefits of soaking/sprouting them and so I tried again with enthusiasm. I found that sprouted almonds, seasame seeds and sunflower seeds had slightly milder but similar effects as when I had them unsprouted. The same for essene bread which is made from sprouted wheat.

So now I only eat fruit and vege's with avo's but avoid all nuts and seeds and am still searching for the ultimate nutrition. I can't determine wether natural oils like flax seed are good or not.

BTW all nuts in question were organic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 02:18AM by Lightform.

Today was pretty typical in terms of my personal fat intake. I had 1 tbsp raw cashew butter in my fruit smoothie, and 1/2 avocado, made into guac, with a few homemade crackers (the recipe had 1/2 c soaked nuts and 1 1/2 tbsp of flax oil combined with veggie pulp and herbs. I ate about 1/3 of them).

The non-fatty stuff on the menu was 1 apple, 1 pt raspberries, 3 leaves kale, 2 dates (in the smoothie) 2 pt glasses of veggie juice (carrot, celery, cuke, shallot, ginger, kale, beet, parsley) blended with two med tomatoes), bunch of plain brocolli sprouts.

I usually try to include a little fat, be it nuts, seeds, nut butter, cold pressed olive, coconut, or flax oil, or avocados, in each meal -- except for juices and plain fruit, obviously. I also put dressing (oil & lemon or something homemade) on my salads when I have them, as I just can't deal with salad with just lemon on it.

I've tried cutting fats way down and even out completely, and it just didn't work for me. I found I was hungry ALL the time, and I dropped a little too much weight (I was already pretty low just from being raw). Plus, I noticed an almost immediate difference in my skin and hair (drier, less shiny).

As has been discussed already in this thread, everyone is different, and I'm sure everyone reacts differently to fats or a lack thereof accordingly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 02:43AM by Ashcat.

Dear Aquadecoco,

One of the main staples of the Hunzas is the pit of the apricot. The pit is the seed of the apricot. They often string the seeds around their necks to eat during the day when they go out to work in their fields and orchards.

Yes, they are some of the longest-living people on the face of the earth. I guess those apricot seeds aren't hurting them very much, yes?

Dear lightform,

I've had a similar experience with sunflower seeds.

I wonder, do you get enough exercise? My personal theory is that POSSIBLY (don't know at all for sure) people who have more difficulty digesting nuts and seeds maybe just need more exercise, especially if they're a little older.

The other possibility that I come up with is that nuts and seeds don't mix well with vegetables. I know some people say they don't mix well with fruits, but that's not my experience. Eating them with veggies though is sometimes a little too much for me.

Like ashcat and others have said, everyone's different.

Dear fresh,

First just wanted to clarify a very minor detail in one other of my statements to you: I do eat seaweed, but not for the sodium. I eat it for the iodine, and because I like it.

This is becoming a very interesting conversation indeed.

For one thing, I know you did your food list on fitday, but I'm more familiar with nutritiondata.com, so I checked it out there. It IS different from fitday, like you mentioned. To bring up your selenium count as high as possible, I entered 10 extra large bananas (1350 calories) to get 20% of the RDA for selenium and 1 1/2 heads of red leaf lettuce (about a pound) to get another 11%. The total calories with everything on the list was 2644, but the total selenium I got was only 44%.

The zinc total came to 41%.

So I checked out fitday, and sure enough, the selenium and zinc percents were much higher.

I decided to try nutridiary to see what their info was. I thought maybe every single site has different info. But the information that I found on nutridiary matched nutritiondata.com exactly. Neither matched the info on fitday at all. I'll mention though that I couldn't find selenium on nutridiary. I found vitamin A and compared those readings.

Nutridiary and nutritiondata both state on their site that they get their information from USDA. I couldn't find any stated source on fitday, so I emailed them and asked for the source. Interesting. I wonder if fitdays info is skewed. Just a thought.

I haven't had a rancid seed for quite a while. It's about as easy to tell by the taste if a seed is rancid, as it is to tell by the taste if a fruit is rotten. If a seed is rancid, it won't taste good, and it will leave a burning sensation in the mouth. You're right that if a seed is rancid, it doesn't help to soak it!

Since you asked, here's my history of deficiency (boring):

The first deficiency I had that made me really take notice happened when I was about 39. I'd been eating only fruits, salads, and avocado (with avocado and lemon juice dressing on the salads) for about 3 years, except for cooked vegan food about every 3 weeks. During that time, I experienced progressively more frequent episodes of vertigo, a condition I'd had since I was 12. This culminated in an extremely severe episode lasting several hours. Vertigo feels like your brain is turning over inside your head. I had to lie down without moving, and finally, after several hours, it went away, but even 8 hours later, I couldn't balance to walk. A nurse told me the next day that it might be from iron deficiency. For the first time in my life, I found a nutrient chart and looked up iron. That's when I started eating seeds finally. My vertigo has become progressively less frequent, and recently it appears to have stopped altogether.

I also noticed that as long as I ate sesame seeds regularly for the calcium, I never have leg cramps or toe cramps at night, a condition that used to plague me.

I also noticed staying raw became a lot easier. I was able to limit my cooked food meals from 0 to maybe 5 times a year.

When I was vegan for about 15 years, very high raw, sometimes 100% for a year or more, around the age of 50, after never having used any kind of supplement during that time, and never eating any nutritional yeast, I began to feel a constant tingling in my fingers and toes. I started taking a B12 supplement and the tingling went away. At the time, I was eating fruits, salads, nuts, seeds, avocados, and a lot of spirulina.

I hope this doesn't turn into a B12 debate now!



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 07:30AM by suncloud.

Oh, and I also experienced some very severe deficiencies from an amoeba. That doesn't really count of course, since it didn't come from diet, but it did allow me to appreciate those little nutrients all the more.

Dewey...this is in reference to your question about soaking nuts and seeds...

when I first started out, I soaked my sunflower seeds and I couldn't tolerate the taste or texture. The other day, I soaked them and then dehyrated them overnight. They were crispy and tastey. I don't know if you have a dehydrator or not, but it worked great. As for nuts, I don't really eat them for a snack and only soak them when the recipe calls for it, sometimes yes...sometimes no.

thanks for your story suncloud.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thanks for your story suncloud.


also, suncloud, has this conversation caused you to change your position on the necessity of nuts/seeds or not? seems to me the nutrient analysis indicated that it's not difficult to do without them. i can understand taking the position of nuts and seeds as insurance...

Fresh wrote:

"avos and olives and other high fat foods are not widely available in natural areas around the world. so your belief points to the conclusion that humans are not meant to thrive on this earth, but only in areas where avocados and olives naturally grow."

LOL!! There are some parts of the world, where no water or food is within reach, without it being transported or imported in. Being that the case, we should conclude, that we should all be breathtarians. LOL!!!

I eat about a tbsp. of seeds almost everyday (pumpkin seeds & sunflower seeds, soaked, sprouted & dehydrated with seasalt, mmmm. I just like them, and I'm sure nothing tragic will happen to me, if I enjoy them, plus I get the nutritional & medicinal bennies out of them.

Omg!! I was out hiking, dancing & hanging out with friends & family all weekend, while fresh was here all weekend obsessing about this. I think I see a irony here.

Rawrrr! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Omg!! I was out hiking, dancing & hanging out with
> friends & family all weekend, while fresh was here
> all weekend obsessing about this. I think I see a
> irony here.

i just got back from sailing, and i had a great weekend too.

thanks for asking.

it's sad that you feel the need to be so sardonic.

Fresh, I'm just not convinced by what you write. You seem so rigid and you sometimes make irrational comments, such as the reply you made to Suncloud "no one says that". No one can speak for everyone else unless they've memorized the entire board! (and I know at least one person here HAS said that)

Rawrrr clearly has it together for herself and that's great. I need to know about raw successes.

Btw, has she been any more sardonic than you?

fresh,

Your question really surprised me.

I thought maybe I'd convinced YOU!

Funny, huh?

To answer your question, no, I don't see any reason at all to stop eating nuts and seeds. To me, it seems like the results of our data research shows that to get the same amount of nutrition without nuts and seeds would require a lot more calories, a lot more food, stretching my stomach, feeding all my good macadamia nuts to the wild pigs, agonizing over missing my sesame seeds, just to end up paying more for groceries and getting less nutrients.

Why would I do that? What I'm doing now works perfectly fine for me. At around 92 pounds, I don't want to lose weight. I don't want to gain weight. I run 4 miles regularly, so I don't have an energy problem. I feel good, I look good. I kind of feel like I've done all the experimenting in that particular direction that I want to do.

And I do agree with Aquadecoco that there's a lot more to nutrition than the charts. So true!

After my previous experiences, it would be very difficult for me to just hand over my health to fitday and forget everything I feel I've already learned, especially when fitday doesn't even have a reference for their nutritional data, and their info is so different from the other sites that DO have a reference.

This is definitely not my only reason, but according to the referenced data, I'd have to eat close to 3000 calories a day just to get to 50% of the zinc RDA, and I'd still end up getting less of many of the nutrients than what I already get on 2000 calories a day!

That wouldn't make sense to me at all.

And I just don't see anything at all wrong with nuts and seeds! I don't see any reason to give them up!

And most importantly, I like going along at a nice even keel. Eating nuts and seeds allows me to do that and to stay raw.

Sorry. Hope you had fun sailing though!

And glad you had a nice weekend Rawwwr!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 12:26AM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> To answer your question, no, I don't see any
> reason at all to stop eating nuts and seeds.

that's not what i was asking.
reread what i posted above.
i used the word "necessity".

people are misunderstanding me.

i'm not anti nuts and seeds.

i was simply questioning your stated notion that they are REQUIRED for sufficient nutrition. that's all. has nothing to do with you personally.

i'm not telling you what to do, or suggesting what you should do.

seemed to me that a reasonable diet was shown to do the same nutritionally without nuts/seeds as compared to with nuts/seeds. without needing to eat too many calories.

I AM NOT NUTS AND SEEDS!

Dear fresh,

The reason I feel that deficiencies will be inevitable on a raw vegan diet without nuts and seeds is this (and it's really my very sincere hope that I don't offend anybody):

Maybe not ALL, but MANY or even MOST or even ALMOST ALL who abstain from nuts and seeds are not AS concerned with getting enough nutrients (which many consider to be of questionable necessity) as they are concerned with lowering their fat intake, for whatever reason.

If any person is actually able to give up nuts and seeds altogether and stay raw (which doesn't seem to happen too often, but it does happen), most will not feel motivated to try hard to eat a huge amount of food, just to get their nutrients. That being the case, if they're "successful", they will have trained themselves to become less hungry.

And indeed, that's what many are hoping for! Accompanying strategies like monodieting, while very GOOD for cleaning out and detoxing, are encouraged on a no-nut/seed diet - not just to clean out, but to help quell the appetite more quickly. It can be an effective strategy for learning to overrule your more intuitive desire to feed yourself. But losing your appetite isn't conducive to getting enough of what you need to stay healthy in the long run, and for developing a pleasant and balanced raw food lifestyle.

A no-nuts/seeds diet can be very attractive to people who are trying to lose weight. And INITIALLY, the results of following such a regimen leads to weight loss, clearer, more beautiful skin, more energy etc. Often though, it's too difficult to sustain because a person is not getting a complete array of nutrients, and a dieter will end up blaming themselves yet again for their perceived failure.

On the flip side, the anorexic may find the diet to be the answer to an unhealthy prayer.

If a person experiences any long-term "success" on this diet, anorexic or not, I believe most (maybe not all) will have succeeded with it by losing their appetite. Once appetite is lost, nutrient levels will naturally start to slip, and eventually, deficiency will follow. In extreme cases, deficiency could put someone into a semi-fasting state of ketosis, where they lose their appetite altogether.

For someone prone to anorexia, if that happens, it may be very difficult to force themselves to eat anything at all. Since they've already convinced themselves that nuts and seeds are "bad", that could complicate their recovery once they decide they should start to eat. And their digestive abilities may need to recover as well.

Of course it's POSSIBLE to get all the nutrients you need without nuts and seeds, as long as you eat a wheelbarrow full of food everyday! Maybe some people are willing to do that and think that they should. I respectfully disagree. I believe most people will do just fine, and feel more comfortable and healthy, eating lots of fruit, some vegetables, and a few nuts and seeds.

No, I don't think 2800-3000 calories a day is a reasonable amount of food to have to eat everyday (according to nutritiondata.com). At least not for somebody my size!

Of course if someone really has a hard time with nuts and seeds, even organic, they really shouldn't eat them.

Hope my point of view doesn't offend anyone. I really do hope that.

I feel like I've now said all that's in my heart and mind on this subject. I wish everyone the best.

And I'm loving everyone on this forum, no matter how they eat!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 02:55AM by suncloud.

fresh Wrote:
i used the word "necessity".
>
> people are misunderstanding me.


Okay, sorry, I thought you were telling people how they should eat.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I feel like I've now said all that's in my heart
> and mind on this subject. I wish everyone the
> best.
>


it must be nice to have those fresh macs. enjoy...
we don't agree on many things but you make some valid points, especially the fact that appetite loss can occur with certain deficiencies - b12,zinc..etc...someething to watch for.

perhaps the protagonist of this thread, rawfrancois, will make her triumphant return and let us know what she thinks of the concern and tips people have had.

Not to stir the pot but I have a question out of pure curiosity: does anyone know the stats on min. fat requirements for men vs. women? Are there any? I honestly don't know, but intuitively it would make sense that women require a bit more fat in their diet (whether trying to get them from seeds and nuts or other sources) than men do.

I know that women generally have a much higher body fat percentage than men, and necessarily carry more fat in areas such as the abdomen, for example, for the purpose of child bearing. Thus, it would stand to reason that the amount of fat consumed to prevent deficiencies would be higher in women than men...?

Also, for those who do abstain from typical fat sources (oils, nuts, seeds, avos, etc.) do you supplement? How are you getting your B12?

I wonder if each persons answer, to rawfrancois, is a reflection of, if someone has their own biological daughter. Especailly, a teenaged daughter.

fresh, would you debate your own biological daughter, all weekend long, why she does not need fat in her diet, and how the monkies can do it, so she should be able to do it, too?

Rawfrancois asked us a question. As a mother, I told her what I would my own daughter.

It seems, fresh, was more intrested in proving a point about monkies and why we don't need more than minicle amounts of fat, rather than caring about a young girl, whose first letter was a red flag, I noticed, before the second letter she wrote.

Eating nuts, seeds & avocados, were just some examples of raw fats, she could have, without knowing if she likes them or not. We were just encouraging her to add raw fats to her diet. If she doesn't like those, then flax seed oil or raw olive oil would be good, too.

Women have different nutritional needs then men do. Good fats help with PMS & help balance hormones.

Kudos for the moms!

Rawrrr! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if each persons answer, to rawfrancois,
> is a reflection of, if someone has their own
> biological daughter. Especailly, a teenaged
> daughter.
>
> fresh, would you debate your own biological
> daughter, all weekend long, why she does not need
> fat in her diet, and how the monkies can do it, so
> she should be able to do it, too?

if you have a personal problem with me, maybe you should email me directly and get it off your mind.

what i do with my time is no concern of yours.

it's weak to say "we are not monkeys"
their diet can be very instructive for us.

And in addition, if you had read the article, you would have found that the scientist quoted the requirements for HUMANS...

many seem to disregard science and maintain their pet theory based on personal experience. often times we draw incorrect conclusions from inadequate data or incorrect correlations.

>
> It seems, fresh, was more intrested in proving a
> point about monkies and why we don't need more
> than minicle amounts of fat

what are monkies?
what is minicle?

you seem more interested in telling me how to live my life
maybe i could set up a direct line, and you could leave me a message on what to do on a daily basis. no really, i'm serious!

>, rather than caring
> about a young girl, whose first letter was a red
> flag, I noticed, before the second letter she
> wrote.

you respond how you wish, and i will do the same.
if you differ from me, feel free to say so.
but you are spending a lot of time on personal attacks.
are you going to spend all week on this?

frankly we don't know enough about her to start accusing her of being anorectic. she said she weighed 130 plus or minus a few. and she said she wanted to lose 20-30 pounds. i don't think it is ever advisable to focus on weight loss myself, but it seems that people can't stop themselves from doing it. now if she is maybe 133 and wanted to lose some weight (not 30, but 15-20 pounds) there is not necessarily anything wrong with that at her height. all you people did was jump on her, focusing on her weighing 100 pounds. 115 pounds at 5'7'' is not out of range and it is not "anorexic". percentage of muscle also has a big impact on weight.

people could have asked some more questions instead of making assumptions, as anaken was trying to point out.

again, since you didn't get it yet, i responded to someone who claimed that nuts and seeds are REQUIRED. i don't think that is true, and even showed it with a sample diet. i have also studied our fat needs and they can be satisfied without high fat foods.

is there anyone else's diet here that you differ with that you would like to share? aren't they going to have an impact on others that you would like to protect them from?

my original post was in response to someone saying a "totally nonfat raw diet"
as i said, this is impossible.
we must be careful when we use words, it's just like saying raw vegans don't eat any protein. is that true too?

> Eating nuts, seeds & avocados, were just some
> examples of raw fats, she could have, without
> knowing if she likes them or not. We were just
> encouraging her to add raw fats to her diet. If
> she doesn't like those, then flax seed oil or raw
> olive oil would be good, too.

and bryan and i and maybe others said that there are fats in all foods.
we weren't even addressing what you were saying.

why are you so worried about what others say?
aren't you confident that your sage advice will be followed ?
our "manly" comments will surely be ignored by the young lass.


> Women have different nutritional needs then men
> do. Good fats help with PMS & help balance
> hormones.

you continue to make statements like this which show that you don't understand the nutritional makeup of foods. there are good fats in greens and fruits. that you don't think there are enough is your opinion. i could show you numbers but you would disregard them.


>I would say that if you like the way people look on the Doug Grams diet, then go for it.

so everyone on doug gram's diet looks bad?

you have seen everyone on doug grams diet?
not possible to make a generalization like that.

>Your brain needs good fats to stay sharp and chemically balanced. If this is not important to you, then again, go no-fat.

again you used the word no-fat. not possible.

>These two are longtime raw foodists. They are both on very different raw food diets. They are both beautiful. It just depends on which one you want to look like.

your posting of two pictures was really distorting
as if everyone on lowfat looks like the one
and if everyone on highfat looks like the other.
I'm sure you can be more unbiased than that.

How did this thread turn into being about other's and not Rawfrancois?

When you are as thin and young as she is, and she is still wanting to lose weight (she doesn't say why) that's a problem. She needs to become aware of the consequences of what the future might harbor for her if she continues to lose weight when she shouldn't.

Raw foods is about a healthy alternative, gaining health, keeping health and youth on your side, energy, healthy life-style.

I don't see those things being a concern with Rawfrancois. When people use raw foods in an unhealthy manner, trying to gain control over their life thru their eating choices or not eating choices, or controling other people in their lives, it's time for a wake up call from more experienced and mature people.

I'd say to some parties here, give this a rest..and get back to dealing with the points Rawfrancois brought up.

Love,
Prism

I'm worried that Fresh is going to be too strict with those beautiful children of his and one day regret it.


I just read a thread in the Sunfood forum about menstruation and there are lots of females there saying how much better they feel eating the (vegan) fats they NEED.





-If you don't have the equipment, you don't get a vote-