If Rawfrancois is still only eating something close to 900 calories a day, she's headed for some trouble.

Bryan has not weighed in again, since his first post on this thread, and I'd like to know from him if Rawfrancois continues to eat only fruits and veggies, which have some fat themselves, how many calories should she be consuming?

The 80/10/10 even allows for 10% fat coming from avocados, nuts, and seeds. I'd say if she's afraid of avocados, maybe she could add in fresh coconut once or twice a week, and eat more fruits to bring up her calories.

Lots of fruits won't do the same thing processed sugar does, you are eating the whole fruit which has water, and fiber and takes longer to digest than when you eat processed sugary foods. I'd say for her to add in a couple smoothies everyday.

But she wants to continue losing weight, and so adding in the needed calories, or anything with fat in it like coconut or avocado is something she may not want to do.

My first point in my first post here was, she shouldn't lose more weight, she should work on being healthy and keep her youthful looks as the years slip by.

I'm wondering if she has added in that once a week extra fat item as she said she'd try. Have you Rawfrancois? How do you feel? Did you gain weight, had to exercise more? Are you losing weight still? Has your mother relaxed about your diet choices?

Love,
Prism



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 06:06PM by Prism.

Dear fresh,

I think Ashcat and Aquadecoco bring up some very good points about fat in the diet with respect to women.

I didn't want to have to come back here, but I wanted to correct the record. I'm sure you were referring to me when you said in your last post that you were "responding to someone who claimed that nuts and seeds were REQUIRED",

But I never said that.

On the 2nd page, YOU said: "i think what you're claiming is that nuts and seeds are required and that it is inevitable to have nutrient deficiency without them.

Please notice that in my clarification (next post after yours) of what YOU said you thought I was claiming, I never said nuts and seeds are REQUIRED.

In fact I said on the first page, my 3rd post, "Maybe, on a diet of just fruits and vegetables, or on 80/10/10, it's POSSIBLE to get sufficient amounts of those nutrients if a person is really careful to include foods that contain enough of those nutrients."

My point to you about deficiency being inevitable on an all raw vegan diet without nuts and seeds, was made in some detail in my last post: mainly that people on an extremely low fat diet, deliberately abstaining from all nuts and seeds, will NOT eat the HUGE amount of foods required to fulfill their nutrient needs everyday, while at the same time making sure those foods contain enough of the nutrients they need, since fulfilling their nutrient needs is not a priority in the diet. That being the case, deficiency on such a diet is inevitable.

I hope you can see the distinction. You and I differ, but that's OK. Please don't make me come back here again!

You might also reread the posts from Rawfrancois, because it seems like you left out a few very important things that she said. And yes the mothers, and me, the grandmother, expressed our very sincere and loving concerns to her.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 06:26PM by suncloud.

In Dr. Graham's book (80-10-10) he says that you should if you were lying in a hospital bed, you would need a minimum of 10x your weight to sustain your body in calories... 120 lbs / 1200 calories a day. Then you need extra calories for your level of activity/exercise, 200-300 for those who are sedentary, more for active. Although this isn't an exact science, because everyone is different, it is a good gauge of how many calories your body needs to sustain itself.

1/2 of a avocado a day or a few nuts/seeds would keep you within 80/10/10

Prism wrote:

> she shouldn't lose more weight, she should work on
> being healthy and keep her youthful looks as the
> years slip by.

Nicely put.

I didn't read fresh's reply, because it looked too long and had a bad vibe.

Well, I'm back. Sorry.

Thanks islandgirl for bringing that up. It's good that you pointed out that a half avocado a day would fit into 80/10/10, and that there is a method with 80/10/10 for guaging how many calories a person needs in a day.

I'd just like to add though that even if a person DOES get enough calories, that won't necessarily mean they'll get enough of all the important NUTRIENTS along with those calories.

Without nuts and seeds, to get enough nutrients on a raw food vegan diet, (say just 50% of the RDA for everything), would require MORE CALORIES than the amount of calories calculated using the 80/10/10 method that you mentioned above, AND/OR it would require paying close attention to the charts.

Please, anyone who feels they can, put a daily sample here of a list of foods, totalling around 2000 calories, using nutritiondata.com or some other referenced source, that will meet 50% of the RDA requirement for all the nutrients (except B12, D, and sodium). Fitday does NOT appear to be a referenced source. Nutritiondata.com's reference is USDA.

50% of the RDA is all I'm asking.

If it's possible to do it, then a list here might be very helpful for others. If it can't be done, I feel it's important to note that too.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 09:27PM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> If it's possible to do it, then a list here might
> be very helpful for others. If it can't be done,
> I feel it's important to note that too.


selenium and zinc, for example, are typically difficult to get up to the levels stated. however, again, just like fitday, when i use nutritiondata.com and look at the benchmark, it is again higher than the benchmark that i find in other sources. if the lower benchmark is used, i did put together a mealplan that was 50% for all nutrients.

other confounding variables are
- food nutrient levels are averages, and likely don't include the high quality organics that we eat.
- assimilative variability
- the accuracy of the rdi/rda's

just too many variables.

fresh, I checked your food list with nutritiondata.com, and it did NOT meet 50% of each of the requirements, even at 2644 calories!

I hope everyone here understands that calories are NOT nutrients. It's very important that Rawfrancois gets enough calories, but it's also just as important to get enough nutrients.

A person can get way more than the calories they need on a junk food diet, but still not get enough important nutrients. Of course we all know that, but the same is true on 80/10/10 or any other diet.

IT'S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO GET ENOUGH ZINC ON A RAW VEGAN DIET WITHOUT NUTS AND SEEDS.

According to Wikipedia:

"Signs of zinc deficiency include hair loss, skin lesions, diarrhea, and wasting of body tissues. Eyesight, taste, smell and memory are also connected with zinc. A deficiency in zinc can cause malfunctions in these organs and functions.

"Zinc deficiency causes a decrease in appetite -- which could degenerate in Anorexia Nervosa (AN). Appetite disorders, in turn, cause malnutrition, and, notably inadequate zinc nutriture. The use of zinc in the treatment of anorexia nervosa has been advocated since 1979 by Bakan."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 10:09PM by suncloud.

No fresh, as I stated before, your food list did NOT reach 50% for either zinc or selenium, EVEN AT 2644 CALORIES! (sorry, I said that twice)

It added up to 41.5% zinc and 44% selenium. If you came to different figures, please itemize those here!

Just for the zinc, with the quantities you used, I get:

- 10 bananas (extra large): 20%
-lettuce (1 lb): 4%
-celery (5 stalks, large): 5%
-1/2 avocado: 4.5%
-1 cucumber: 1%
-2 C mango: 0%
-2 nectarines: 4%
-5 oranges (large) 5%
-2 C grapes: 0%

Adjusting for the averages used in the itemization, nutritiondata adds that up to 41%.

As stated in my previous post, adequate zinc is very important especially for anyone inclined toward anorexia.

Just as an aside rawfrancois, or anyone else who may regard appetite as undesireable: I used to think my appetite was my mortal enemy. But over the years, I've found that if I pay attention closely enough to what will satisfy my appetite, while paying attention to how I feel after eating it, my appetite is actually my greatest raw food friend. That's because my appetite will accept different options to be satisfied. It might accept a donut say to satisfy a sweet tooth, but it will also accept a banana, and a banana makes me feel better.
It might accept a piece of cheese to satisfy a calcium craving, but it will also accept an orange or a bit of sesame seed, and the orange and sesame seed makes me feel better.

Appetite is good. Just like a pet. Chain it and deny it food and water, it will bite you. Feed it and tame it, and watch closely enough to see what it needs, and it will be your best friend!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 11:05PM by suncloud.

I hope everybody noted in my Wikipedia reference above about the link between zinc deficiency and anorexia.

Just wondering fresh,

Did you already know about the link between zinc deficiency and anorexia?

I just found this new information today.

The reason I'm wondering about it is because you mentioned on p3 (2nd to last of your posts) a link between inadequate zinc and appetite loss.

Can you give us any more information about zinc deficiency and appetite loss? That would certainly explain how an anorexic is able to eat so little for so long without getting hungry.

And it would definitely make it imperative that a person prone to anorexia not follow blindly any diet that does not easily provide enough zinc!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 11:38PM by suncloud.

I tried eating fats on Friday. I felt really uncomfortable and nervous about it so I'm probably not going to try it again for a little while. I didn't weigh myself. Since, I've lost weight by lowering my intake. My mom doesn't care about what I eat anymore, at least she hasn't said anything. I'm sorry to have started fights among everyone. I am starting to think that the raw diet isn't for me, because I don't feel comfortable giving my body the lipids it needs. I thought I was, and I did for a while earlier in the summer, but I proved myself wrong. I think I'm going to take a break from the community because I shouldn't be here if I can't advocate good health to other people. Thank you everyone for your responses, I'll keep them in mind.

So sorry rawfrancois!

I know you're an extremely intelligent young lady. I hope you'll soon make it out of this difficult and uncertain phase of your life.

Please send me a PM if you like.

All of my best to you, and I know others are sending you theirs also.

Rawfrancois, why don't you stay on the forum and post about yourself ?

I don't think of this as fighting, I think of it as bringing important ideas and information to the table, so we can all understand it better.

I didn't know how old you were till I looked at your homepage a little while ago. I know you'll find this difficult to care about ( I wouldn't have at your age), but MANY of us struggled through bad body images and unhealthy diets while we were trying to make the most of what we had. There were models I wanted to look like and admired them so much.


Do you mean you want to go to a cooked diet but still not eat fats?

Let us know how your body likes making the switch to cooked after so long on raw.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No fresh, as I stated before, your food list did
> NOT reach 50% for either zinc or selenium, EVEN AT
> 2644 CALORIES! (sorry, I said that twice)
>

suncloud, i put in another set of foods in nutritiondata,
not those foods above.

rawfrancois Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I tried eating fats on Friday. I felt really
> uncomfortable and nervous about it so I'm probably
> not going to try it again for a little while. I
> didn't weigh myself. Since, I've lost weight by
> lowering my intake. My mom doesn't care about what
> I eat anymore, at least she hasn't said anything.
> I'm sorry to have started fights among everyone. I
> am starting to think that the raw diet isn't for
> me, because I don't feel comfortable giving my
> body the lipids it needs. I thought I was, and I
> did for a while earlier in the summer, but I
> proved myself wrong. I think I'm going to take a
> break from the community because I shouldn't be
> here if I can't advocate good health to other
> people. Thank you everyone for your responses,
> I'll keep them in mind.

don't worry about it rawfrancois.

i'm sure everyone here would like to keep talking with you.

we can all learn something from each other.

Rawfrancois, but I LIKE to fight! So don't feel bad! JK

I believe you care for yourself, and will make the best decisions for yourself. Whether you stay or take a break, I truly wish you the best.

suncloud can you pm me, yours is full.

I'm not going to revert to cooked food. Steamed vegetables, air-popped popcorn - that's the extent of my cooked food adventures. Cooked food just makes me feel all-over ill. I just mean I shouldn't really participate in this community because I know I'm depriving myself, and that's not what raw is about. I'll check back every so often.

suncloud,

last post on this..

Ingredients for Entire Recipe
Qty x Measure
Bananas, raw
5.0 x 1 small (6" to 6-7/8" long) (101g)
Blueberries, raw
3.0 x 1 pint as purchased, yields (402g)
Celery, raw
4.0 x 1 NLEA serving (110g)
Figs, raw
8.0 x 100 grams (100g)
Lettuce, cos or romaine, raw
1.0 x 1 head (626g)
Watermelon, raw
4.0 x 100 grams (100g)

zinc is 42%
and
selenium is 20%

It is 2026 calories.

seems selenium and zinc are going to be low compared to the rdi without nuts and seeds.

i don't think it's a problem for the following reasons:

-we don't have any idea how much nutrients the foods we eat actually contain.
** they are averages from conventional produce.
-organic is often orders of magnitude higher nutritionally.
-we don't really know the safety factors that they built in. i can't find the info anywhere.
-we don't even know how they determined their actual rdi values.

yes, i've heard about the zinc issue and b12 in relation to appetite.
i have no more details though.

Some things to consider:

- I eat minimal nuts and seeds and show no deficiency symptoms that i know of.
- However, once in the past i showed signs of b12 problem and also lack of appetite,
so b12/zinc/selenium could have been a problem at those times
- Your 50% goal is arbitrary. With sodium and calcium, for example, the rdi's could be
as much as 3X the necessary value. So we could just as well use 30% as a goal, which would
make it even easier.
- It is not good to overdose on selenium, or zinc. Something to be careful of when eating nuts.

***Finally, I think much of what you've said is valid and important.
I agree that we should not be blind to nutritional details, assuming all is ok.
We would be wise to watch for appetite problems, for example,
since this problem is self perpetuating and people seem to think minimizing
food intake to extremes is somehow a good thing.

I thank you for your persistence and brainstorming.

In an earlier post(s), Rawrrr! wrote:

Quote

....
This is my opionion, and not up for debates with men with ED's.
....
Rawfrancois, but I LIKE to fight! So don't feel bad! JK

Ouch!!

Rawfrancois, you've certainly contributed to this tread by starting a very interesting discussion, debate..and little of everything. We love this kind of banter, because it's a learning experience for all of us.

I think you should stay and maybe even explore some other raw food boards to help broaden your views.

What kind of food did you eat on Friday to try and up your fat intake? When you feel like you are depriving yourself, and feel that it's unhealthy, that is an awareness some people don't have no matter their age.

I think your raw food diet looks very good, just making a couple smoothies or at least 1 even at just 2 a week, and adding in something like some fresh coconut meat, or a small amount of avocado (you can't even tell it's in the smoothie) you would be doing yourself a service.

Have you checked out Nora's site, Rawschool? You might really enjoy reading her info. [www.rawschool.com]

She has a yahoo group too that's active, with lots of discussion, you will find that info on her main website.

I'd say to you, stick around, contribute when you want, take what you want from the posts, leave the rest. You are a sweet, intelligent, beautiful young woman, and we'd miss you too much if you go!

Love,
Prism

i agree rawfrancois .. you brought up a very good question .. instead of looking at it like you caused some argument consider that you stirred up a debate .. .. debating is healthy

you do have alot to contribute to this forum and you shouldnt feel that you dont ... as prism said .. you are at least aware of whats going on , thats one step further then alot of people get to

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Rawfrancois,

I'm so glad you're going to be checking in!

Jgunn is right. I've learned a whole LOT from this thread!

Rawfrancois, here's just a suggestion. I don't take supplements myself, except for B12, but you might want to consider taking a multivitamin at least until you feel you can eat a little more. Food is better, but some of these nutrients, it would be good to keep up with if you can. Maybe, since you're eating so little now, it would be good to become familiar with the charts, and even once you take in a little more food, it might still be good to supplement with whatever you might need. The ones to look out for most, IMO would be vit E, zinc, selenium, calcium, and iron.

fresh,

The RDA is not arbitrary. People didn't come up with these figures in a dark room filled with reps from the meat and dairy industry. This isn't Cheney and the energy policy! The 100% amounts were determined by DOUBLING the minimum found to be needed for each nutrient to avoid deficiency symptoms, according to multiple studies in the field all over the world. That's the reason I'm targeting 50%.

The discovery of the importance of nutrients didn't come from some SAD conspiracy. Au contraire! The first discovery was made by finding that people eating white rice were contracting beriberi, while people eating brown rice could be cured from beriberi.

Your new list is getting closer.

I don't know exactly how my figures came out different from yours. But I get 1556 calories in all (so there's still room to add stuff).

I would mention though that fresh figs, in that quantity on a daily basis is probably a rarity unless you grow your own figs, plus fresh figs are seasonal, and the dried figs don't have as much nutrients. The 800g of figs called for on your list is equivalent to 16 med. size figs.

I'm breaking this down so we can see if I made a mistake somewhere (wouldn't be too surprising!), or if we're adding things up differently.

-5 bananas (small): vit E: 5%, zinc: 5%, selenium: 5%
-400g (100g x 4) blueberries: vit E: 12%, zinc: 4%, selenium: 0%
-4 NLEA servings celery: vit E: 4%, zinc: 4%, selenium: 4%
-800g (100g x 8) figs: vit E: 8%, zinc: 8%, selenium: 0%
-1 head romain lettuce: vit E: 4%, zinc: 10%, selenium: 4%
-400g (100g x 4) watermelon: vit E: 0%, zinc: 4%, selenium: 4%

Nutritiondata.com totals this up to: vit E: 29%, zinc: 33%, sel: 18%.
Their adjustment in the total for each item comes from rounding out the hidden decimals in the itemized list above.

So, in addition to being deficient in zinc and selenium, it's also deficient in Vitamin E.

Vitamin E is another very important nutrient for lots of things including the health of the nervous system.

It definitely does seem to be the case that it takes somewhat of an effort to get to the 50% mark for zinc, selenium, and vitamin E (at least) without nuts and seeds. Especially the zinc is worrisome I think, since there are so many health concerns associated with zinc deficiency in addition to the link with anorexia.

If a person feels they'll automatically get enough of everything they need just by being raw and eating enough fruits and veggies to get their calories, then it would be difficult to conceive that they could possibly avoid becoming zinc deficient.

And how many people know how to read a chart even if they wanted to?

I think those who advocate a raw foods diet without nuts and seeds, or an 80/10/10 diet that's very low in nuts and seeds, would be doing a great service to everybody, and to the raw food movement, by coming up with a list of SEVERAL suggested daily menus that all meet at least 50% of the RDA for vitamin E, zinc, selenium, calcium, and iron.

Without such a list, I feel that down the line, those who are "successful" in staying on such a diet will eventually have some serious health problems.

And it would also be good if so many raw folks didn't feel it's so necessary to perpetuate the fear of "fats" as in vegan whole raw oil-rich, nutrient-rich foods, ie nuts and seeds (uh huh, fat chance!).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2007 07:10PM by suncloud.

Jgunn,

I love that! "Every oak tree started out as a couple of nuts who stood their ground!"

Yay for the nuts!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2007 06:59PM by suncloud.

lol thanks

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I've learned a lot since this thread started. For
> example, I had no idea that romaine was so high in
> calcium and iron. And of course, I didn't know
> that zinc deficiency was linked with anorexia.
> That clears up a lot for me.


suncloud,

what i can suggest is that if you would not ignore the confounding factors that i mentioned, that this issue would not be as clear cut as you seem to think it is. or perhaps you could share why you feel that those factors are not relevant and you are taking both the rdi and the usda nutrient values and the variation in people's assimilative powers at face value. also show me documentation indicating the doubling of the rdi that you mentioned.

my feeling is that the best course of action is to tune into our body diet wise and also educate ourselves with respect to nutrient deficiency symptoms in case they arise, and take action accordingly.

[video.google.com]

A 2 hour video on Storm and his family..you can really see the raw food diet in action here!

I haven't seen the whole thing yet..it's long. So, book-mark it if you want to view it in parts.

Love,
Prism

Dear prism,

I'm not sure if you've noticed by now, but I edited out the part of my last post that you quoted.

I agree that nothing is written in stone, and it's most important for a person to take into account what makes them feel best.

But I also believe that what feels really good and seems really right for a while might not necessarily fulfill all of a person's needs in the long run. Sometimes it takes a while on raw to come to that conclusion. And some people may never come to that conclusion. That's OK.

I pay some attention to the RDA because information from the RDA has helped me overcome my own deficiency symptoms in the past. That's it. That's my experience, and if sharing it with others can be helpful, then that's why I share.

I certainly don't mind hearing your views also, but please don't take it personally if I might not share your views or change mine after I hear yours. I definitely don't take it personally if you don't accept mine (although I might worry about you a little - sorry). And if I don't agree, please try to understand that I don't feel I can debate everything that's said that I might happen to disagree with.

But you're certainly welcome, as far as I'm concerned to say whatever you believe is true!

If I seem closedminded to you, Prism, I will mention that if I see evidence to change my views, then I WILL change my views.

I've had to change my views A LOT. When I first started going raw, I was a fruitarian (by belief much more often than by practice). I moved to Hawaii 23 years ago in hopes of being able to succeed with a 100% fruit diet.

I've been humbled some since then. BUT as far as my day-to-day raw food vegan diet, it's steady, I'm healthy, I'm confident that it's sustainable, I LOVE it, and I'd certainly say it's a far cry from SAD. If I'm not afraid to eat a small amount of nuts and seeds nearly every day, and if I attempt to dispel that fear in other people, I don't see anything wrong with that.

It just so happens that the information about zinc defiency seems true to me for reasons related to my own previously-made observations, AND there have been 5 studies since 1979 to back it up.

I'm not aware of any personal or group evidence disputing it. Are you? If so, here's your chance to state that evidence!

Personal observation from short-term experience has proven to me to be often misleading. Long-term experience is better. And long-term experience substantiated by the long-term experiences of others is better still.

I DO agree that educating yourself about the symptoms of deficiency is important!

I did happen to visit a vegan nutritionist several years ago, and she was the one who told me that the RDA figures were determined by doubling the truer figures. I've heard this several times since, and I tried to confirm that for you today.

The best I could do was to find a site called www.nutritionfacts.com/rda.html.
It's a question and answer format. The fourth question is from someone who says they heard the same thing about doubling the RDA from a professor. The answer is that "There is a cushion built in so that if you get 67% of the RDA for a nutrient, you should be getting a minimum amount as an average person."

The answer to the fifth question on that site addresses who specifically the RDA is designed for.

I agree that it would certainly be foolish to consider the information from the charts to be facts written in stone that are undisputable. It would be just as foolish to discount the charts and the results of every nutritional study without any justifiable reason.

Storm and Jingee eat nuts.

Hope you consider all of the above to be written in a spirit of friendliness.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2007 10:00PM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

i'm thinking maybe you were responding to me, but said prism?
i would prefer to take this to pm, but you didn't respond to me so i'm responding here.

> I certainly don't mind hearing your views also,
> but please don't take it personally if I might not
> share your views or change mine after I hear
> yours.

of course not !

>IF I'm not afraid to eat a small amount
> of nuts and seeds nearly every day, and if I
> attempt to dispel that fear in other people, I
> don't see anything wrong with that.

i guess i need to say it again.
this whole conversation from my perspective was about me questioning that someone, whether you or someone else was claiming that they were required.

So that line of thought has nothing to do with what you're saying above.

What you're saying above I Don't Disagree With.
I do not think that people should be afraid of a small amount
ok?

> It just so happens that the information about zinc
> defiency seems true to me for reasons related to
> my own previously-made observations, AND there
> have been 5 studies since 1979 to back it up.

what studies?

> I agree that it would certainly be foolish to
> consider the information from the charts to be
> facts written in stone that are undisputable. It
> would be just as foolish to discount the charts
> and the results of every nutritional study without
> any justifiable reason.

i haven't found any studies.
feel free to refer me to them.


> Storm and Jingee eat nuts.

still think I'm against eating nuts ?

Dear prism, I'm So sorry about the above post! This was supposed to be addressed to fresh!

Yep, fresh, I get it that you're not opposed to eating nuts.

But I still don't see you offering any evidence that a person can fulfill all their needs without them, and that includes the info you've offered from the charts.

If you don't agree with the charts, that's fine too.

But I just don't think you can use them as evidence to support your point of view, and that's probably more to the point that I was trying to make.

Sorry I didn't reference the info about the 5 studies. That came from googling zinc at Wikipedia.

My point to you about other studies can be referenced at the dietician site that I mentioned in my above post, about the method for determining the RDAs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2007 10:17PM by suncloud.

Suncloud -

When you talk about 1/2 cup sesame seeds and calcium levels, are you referring to sesame seeds that have had their hulls removed and are creamy white in appearance?

-Smile