Here's a 'cloud-busting' technique (my euphemism for relieving emotional pain). It's a meditation that I read about in a book by a Tibetan meditation teacher some years ago. It works! I'm putting it in my own words here, with my own descriptions based on the Zen and Taoist traditions of letting go altogether of thoughts. Here's how I practice it:

You sit down and meditate until you have quieted your mind and stilled your thoughts. (The 'no thoughts' part is really important. Rather than changing 'bad' thoughts, or working with 'good' thoughts, or contemplating a solution, we're more concerned about getting past thoughts and beyond the superficial part of the mind and bypassing altogether your brain's language banks and all the analytical and conceptual machinations associated with it, because they're part of the problem!) Then you settle down INTO the feeling, whatever it is-- whether it's sadness, depression, anxiety, anger, or whatever. The trick is not to label the feeling or have any self-talk about it. The inclination, of course, is to describe it internally "It feels like blah blah blah." Instead, you just sit with the feeling, sense where and how you feel it viscerally in your body (I usually feel it around my heart center or throat center or both) and sense how it feels in the body-- again no descriptive words, no inner narrative, no 'blow-by-blow'. It takes a little getting used to; the inclination will always be there to have descriptive thoughts about the feeling. It's good if you see a picture in your mind of what it looks like-- how big it is, what color it might look like. Just don't jump off on a descriptive tangent with words from that point.

Finally you settle down and just sit with the feeling itself for awhile, and a curious thing happens: it starts to dissipate! If you're in a deep state of pain or trauma you may find it may take a series of meditations, but in everyday situations where depression and/or anxiety pop up, the result can be felt almost immediately.

Sharrhan:


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Kwan,
Does this technique also off load karma? I know there is a difference in the understanding of karma in the different traditions, so I don't know if it even makes sense in this context.

What about after you have meditated? I have a very strong tendancy to over think using words, and to try and consciously plan everything, as well as mulling over the past. I would love to do less of that. I noticed that I have become a little bit more free from that in the past several years. I would love to have greater freedom, as I found that my life feels significantly better being lighter in the mental word world.

Kwan, I sometimes picture you ice skating! (michelle kwan) the photo is perfect with the slight angle!

sharrhan,

you are exactly right! sometimes it makes you feel better just to know you are not some kind of a freak for feeling this way. i dont like for others to feel bad and i am sad that others have to go through it too. but, its just nice to know we are not alone. )

i am feeling much better by the way.

i hope everyone else is feeling better as well.

Mislu--
Thanks!-- she's so beautiful and delicate (I'm not that delicate looking, not at all... believe me!,lol.) Oh, would I LOVE to skate like Michelle Kwan. But alas, I'm not a great ice skater at all. I have short legs, my balance is not great, and my ankles are a little weak! I'm more of a freestyle modern/jazz dancer type of person-- despite the above, I've got 'the moves'. ;-)

I love watching Michelle Kwan skate; I used to always watch the skating championships on TV.

Re. karma -- that's a good question! I don't see why it wouldn't. I've been trying to figure out the whole karma thing lately. I've been reading some engaged Buddhist articles that take a deep look at the teachings about karma and say it's time to rethink what karma is, especially in light of social concerns and how karmic teachings sometimes lead people to avoid caring for those in need, etc. I think I'll post them here as a new thread; they're very interesting.

hi pihourova!--

Glad you're feeling better. Me too!

Sharrhan:


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Kwan,
I would be interested in reading about what you found about karma. There are a number of different ideas about what karma is exactly, and what it does, and how to pay karmic debt.

Hi Mislu--
Great! I'll dig it up and either post it here or I'll send it directly to you. I used to have a Yahoo group called "Unlearning the Lies" where I posted tons of articles on all sorts of socio-political, cultural and psycho-spiritual (pardon the jargon) issues-- kind of a daily digest of things that I thought were noteworthy, with an emphasis on myths, magical thinking and erroneous belief systems that negatively affect how we live in western society. Karma was something we looked at quite a bit, also new age blame.

Anyway, I'll find it-- I think it was a series of articles, actually-- and I'll post some or all of it.

Sharrhan:


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kwan, what you said about the zen thought was very interesting. If that is what they teach than that seems so good. I usually am depressed due to external circumstances and really I can't make myself be happy happy joy joy all the time. Infact I feel odd is I smile and act chearfull when things around me are falling apart. Unfortunately I have tended to indulge myself in feeling depressed for a long time and have become acustome to that feeling. It is comfortable now to feel depressed. I read in a ann wigmore book that in order to break a habit one has to punch their way out of the cycle at times. I am at the place where I am punching my way out of the cycle of depression and the feeling of being trapped in my situation. I feel like I am winning in this battle. some days are better than others some hours are better than others. I feel that by eating only raw foods has given me clarity in thinking and some internal strength to fight and pick myself up and strive for what I need to do and to feel more positive and less depressed. I notice when I have eaten the slightest thing non raw and my emotions get a little off. I live in washington state and the sky is oftain grey not to uplifting the rain can get to ya at times but I guess I am use to it. I use to take anti depressionts, they cant fix everything by changing what I eat has changed my world for the better.

Hi pampam!
Yes, we were just now listening to Alan Watts talking about how you wouldn't know or enjoy the color red unless you can see the contrast of all the other colors. Same with life and death, joy and depression.

I had a lot of depression in my earlier years because of childhood trauma, and I'd have to be nuts to 'blame' myself for the emotions I felt. Things are good now, though, and the darker strain of emotions that we all experience from time to time later bring a richness and fulness to our life in ways that we can't know at the time: they open our hearts and fill us with empathy for others (unless we clam up and get reallly icey-cold inside from the pain); they help us to become tuned to our inner spirit; and when the sun comes out again we are dazzled and overjoyed by the contrast.

I'm pretty sensitive emotionally to certain foods: cooked starches in particular. If I stick with raw I always feel SO much better.

Sharrhan:


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Kwan,
Thank you for your encouragement! some great words to keep in mind.

I got an interview set for monday! Its not a job yet, but it was certainly nice to get a phone call, thats a step closer than all the other positions I have applied for.

I heard something interesting resently. A grandfather was talking about his two grandchildern who play musical instruments. One plays beautifully, and he thinks he has a star career as a concert musician ahead of him. He(the child) DOESN'T think he plays that well, and is very critical of himself.

The other grandchild thinks he plays great, and the grandfather says he sounds like a train wreck or a cat being abused or something like that. Not to his face of course, and the rest of the family agrees and patiently puts up with it, because they don't want to discourage him.

I'm pretty certain that the first child plays well because he can actually hear how other people hear when hes playing. Carefully noting even the slightest off note. Somewhere along the line he was probably told that it didn't sound good, or got made fun of or something. I am sure it probably wasn't a good thing to hear. That could be why when he talks about playing he says modest to downright self abasing things. "I don't play very well, or I'm just learning". Unfortunately, not too many people get a chance to hear him play, because he makes himself out to sound like hes awful.

It would be interesting to see which child continues playing, and which makes a career out in music. They both could. The challenge for the first will be in accepting that he actually plays well, and being able to say so for self promotion. The challenge for the second will be to bring his skill up to an acceptible level to match what the audience hopes to hear. I think both will actually have to continually improve as they progress on this path. What do you think?

Mislu--
Below is a link to the original website about 'Rethinking Karma: the Dharma of Social Justice' I mentioned in this thread, that you were interested in; also I found some related articles that might be of interest. Enjoy!
----------------------------------
Think Sangha Journal #4
Rethinking Karma:
The Dharma of Social Justice
[www.bpf.org]

On-line Conference on "Revisioning Karma"
17-22 OCTOBER 2005
[www.buddhistethics.org]

thezensite:
Engaged Buddhism: New and Improved!(?)
Made in the U. S. A. of Asian Materials
[www.thezensite.com]

Broadly Engaging
[www.dharmalife.com]

hey everyone! this has turned into such an interesting thread. thanks for having the courage to share your feelings mislu. you started something that brought a little sunshine to my darkness.

I have no plans to dissipate myself, I love myself and my mind is sharp!

Pihourova,
I am glad it helped! Do you find it helpful to read other peoples experience? some incredible number of people in the U.S. have depression. Some people think its over diagnosed, which is a posibility. Or it could be that it just really is that widespread. I watched a d.v.d. on dha and epa, there are a number of studies which link a lot of disease to a shortage of omega 3 oils, and/or an excess of omega 6. Depression is one of them, along with a number of mental disorders.

I think attention to diet, exercise, sleep, light etc can help tremendously. I think there is a genetic side to this, and also exposure to environmental toxins can contribute. I have a friend who says he has tried everything, and he says he pretty much feels the same. He tried anti-depressants, which sort of helped, but he didn't like the side effects. Now that he is off of them, he says he generally feels worse, and he has trouble sleeping soundly or enough hours. Thats something to keep in mind.

I wish I new all the causes for depression. I am sure there is more information out there, and points of view which could help all that are interested.

Pihourova,
I went to a magic show this evening! I'm not as willing to accept what I see on stage or T.V. like I did when I was a child or a teenager. I noticed a lot of things which I never did before. Like how most of the acts where done in VERY low lights, loud music, scattered/flickering light. And as always very exagerated and rather distracting movements.

It was rather nice to hear a lot of very good jokes, and be entertained. I never realized that most of it is showmanship, and engaging the audience. What you call the act and how you present it can really lead people to believe there was something more to it.

If you know of a high energy magic show, that might be good to go to. Or a good comedy might, or even a nice concert which is uplifting would be good.

Coconut cream,
"I have no plans to dissipate myself, I love myself and my mind is sharp! "

Tya Hillaut!

coconutcream Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no plans to dissipate myself, I love myself
> and my mind is sharp!


I enjoy hearing people, especially females, speak well of themselves and acknowledging their assets. It's part of knowing yourself.

Aquadecoco,

Kwan originally stated the following:

"Finally you settle down and just sit with the feeling itself for awhile, and a curious thing happens: it starts to dissipate! If you're in a deep state of pain or trauma you may find it may take a series of meditations, but in everyday situations where depression and/or anxiety pop up, the result can be felt almost immediately."

Coconut Cream--
I don't think anyone intentionally plans to 'dissipate themselves' (though if you read what I said, I wasn't talking about a person dissipating; I was referring to negative feelings dissipating as a result of this meditation method). It was a very positive statement. Life isn't always enjoyable or pleasant every moment (even if we're thinking positively and trying to love ourselves and others), and I was offering a meditation technique that goes beyond words and thoughts in bringing the mind back into a state of harmony and joy.

Sharrhan:


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Ok Kwan. I understand

I just respond to ideas, nothing personal.



Dissipate negativity.

WHat is the source of the negativity?

Sometimes we need to earn positive feelings. we cannot go around being bad to ourselves, making bad chouces and will bad consequences away.

I think the key is making better choices when the only person who sees you make them is you. You agree? Happiness is making the right choices when you are alon with yourself. We make choices for others and want the world to see us a certain way. But what abouut how we see ourselves? That is real self esteem, happiness is the consequence of finding what your values are and living up to them.

I didn't read much of this thread, just a few bits. I'm sure the links are great but I haven't read them. I was just responding to the positive self-esteem I saw.

hi mislu!

yes, it did help. and yes, it does help to hear about other peoples experiences. not that i want others to be miserable with me, but it does help to not feel like i am so alone when i know i am not the only one who feels this way.

i hope your freind can find some sort of relief as well. i tried antidepressants. many different ones at different times. it did not help me. i noticed nothing.

glad you enjoyed the magic show. yes, it is nice to have some sort of distraction from life at times. a little escape from reality just for fun. i am dying to go to the shakesphere's globe theater in london. the play season is over there but i plan on going as soon as productions start again. i may go soon just to hear the lectures and join the discussions on his works. it also helps me to read and write. writing is a great release for me.

did you read kwan's post on the other topics forum? the light and the wall?

coconut cream,

it is great to see high self esteem! good for you.

i understand what you mean about making better decisions. i am not saying that i am not responsible for these feelings. i blame only myself. but nobody is perfect. not even you. ))

also, my feelings are not external. i feel this way because of me. not because of the way i think others see me.

i make excellent decisions. i am satisfied with my decisions and my ethics. but sometimes, i just get a case of the blahs.

Mislu--
Tya Hillaut! Ha! I looked it up. Did you mean 'Ah ha! We've found a deer (or a fox)!" or "Enemy aircraft!!" My dad was a night-fighter in the 2nd World War, so I sort of went with the latter. Not sure what it meant, but it made me laugh anyway. ;-p

BTW, congrats about the job interview! Let me know how it goes. I'm sure you'll be landing a great job really soon.

Sharrhan:


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We'd all like to think we have boundless self-determination and can surmount anything with the right thoughts, but life teaches us that this simply is not true. I have a dear friend who's taken Est and Landmark Forums for years and believes implicitly in them. She does all the 'right' stuff and thinks positively all the time. She's a lovely person. Yet I've seen her lose her home, go into massive debt, lose her job, and find out her husband of many years was actually living a lie and seeing men. Life doesn't always respond to thoughts and feelings. What does it respond to then?

I suspect some teachers put a little too much faith in the power of our language banks, which in fact reflect only the most superficial layer of consciousness and can't yield much in the way of deep spiritual treasure. In the depths beyond words and thoughts... lies the secret. I'm sure of it.

Sharrhan:


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Pihourova,
I am so glad to hear it! Yes, I don't want anyone to continue to feel bad. I don't want anyone to encourage my own bad feelings either. But sometimes one has to reach out and say, you know I don't feel so good. Sometimes one doesn't even know why. It can go beyond just feeling sad, like trouble getting out of bed in the morning, needing more sleep, the tendancy to eat more, and or different body sensations. I also have been feeling colder these days.

I didn't read kwans comments in other sections, but it sounds interesting. shakesphere, sounds exciting! do you have a webpage of your writing? Isn't it great to have some extra way of communicating?

Kwan,
Tya Hillaut, ha! I thought it would be more engaging than tally-ho, being a more obscure reference. I didn't know what that was until I accidentally found it. It has a variety of meanings. I thought it meant, 'go forth quickly' or 'go forward bravely'. Some of the definitions sorta mean that, but not quite.
[en.wikipedia.org]

I am probably thinking more of "sally forth". "sally forth" is an expression meaning "to start out in an energetic manner."
[en.wikipedia.org]

I didn't know what to say to coconut cream, but wanted more information, as I didn't understand what she was writing about. She responded with much more clearity. Thank you! (if you are reading here as well)

There is that new age positivism again with 'boundless self-determination'. I watched that movie 'what the bleep do we know' a few years back that took that to an extreme. It was interesting, but WHO can possibly think of every aspect of existence continually? Careful never to have a negative thought at all times? For me that just isn't helpful.

Coconutcream--
Oh that's okay. Words can get us all tangled up in misunderstanding sometimes.:-) I know your heart is full of love, and that's what counts.

I have a LOT of thoughts about the whole game of life that we've been talking about here on the forum this weekend on this thread and another one-- the one about Yukta Kulvinskas, toward the end when the thread took a turn in another direction-- and I've already blabbed to much on those points. However, I'll just say here that I think there's more than meets the eye to being happy and fulfilled than just thinking good thoughts. They are part of the equation, to be sure, but I don't believe they alone insure a life of harmony and freedom from depression.

Sharrhan:


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2007 05:19AM by kwan.