Big ones?
Little white ones?
How about lying to children?
Santa Claus ring any bells?

I can't do it. I remember finding out that my parents had been lying to be about good ole St. Nick and it was devastating. Not only to find out that he wasn't real, that was traumatic enough, even worse was the discovery that my parents didn't honour me enough to tell me the truth. It changed the way i saw them and, ultimately, myself. My faith in them was badly shaken and I wondered what else they were lying to me about. I wondered what else they were lying to other people about. Then I realized that other children's parents lie to them about Santa too. It made me feel terrible to believe that we live in a world full of lies, where it is common practice for adults to deceive children, it's even considered a sort of fun. A whole cultural tradition is based on it. Was it ok for ME to lie now? Was that what being a grown up was all about?

Those thoughts went on and on, or an unsofisticated little girl version of them anyhow. I never got over it, it affected me deeply and now as a mother I find it impossible to do it to my kids. I know people brush it off as nothing much and I've gotten more than one earful about depriving my children of the fun and fantasy of Santa and the like but, really, lying is something that is so frowned upon, even little white lies, how can it be OK to lie about something so huge to our littlest members of society? How disingenuous. And what a message to deliver to them, sugar coated with candy canes and sugar plums. It's enough to make a kid sick to their stomach.

What do you think?

How about telling your children the WHOLE truth about Christmas. I have two boys who are 5 and 8 years old. I teach them that lying is unacceptable, so what would I be teaching them by lying to them. We do not celebrate Christmas at all. If you look up the origin of Christmas you will find it has nothing to do with Jesus or God or anything religious for that matter. I too have received earful about depriving my children. I teach my children to be compassionate and kind 365 days a year and not just during a man made holiday. My kids never feel deprived for gifts because I give them things throughout the year. I wrap it up, make a big deal over it and they love it. I am also free of the pressure of having to participate in the Christmas season. While everyone else is frantically trying to find gifts for people, I sit back and relax during these days. I give gifts from the heart not because the calendar tells me too.

Oh wow!!! This is something I have thought about oh so much. I was 3 when I realized the big hoax. My father looked like Santa and pretended to be Santa for our church. He was fooling all the kids except me. I knew Santa was a big lie then and my older sister was happy to confirm it. My mother made an attempt to hide it by saying people pretend to be Santa for fun because the real Santa is too busy to make all those appearances but I knew better. My mother did make it better years later by saying the spirit of Santa is real and all the fun and excitement are real. I was always excited on Christmas to run into the living room and see what Santa had brought us.

When I became a mom I wanted to never lie to my kids, but I didn't want to rob them of the magic of Santa either. I was really upset that I had known the truth at such a young age and I saw my peers believing in Santa for years and I felt sad that I was missing that. I don't think of it as a lie when I tell my kids about Santa, I just think of it as another part of being a mommy. The magic of Santa works through us. My oldest is 12 now and still believes in Santa. Her friends think she is just playing along but she really does believe. I am more than a little nervous about how she will react when she discovers the truth or will she be in her own home with her first child wondering what Santa will deliver? Santa is a spirit that is in everyone and that spirit is real. That is what I will tell them when i have to explain the lie.

when i made the decision to tell little the truth we had a talk about fun stories and how the story of santa is like that, just like superman, a fun story. we do celebrate the holidays, the darkest day of the year is coming and the return of the light and since the rest of the continent has seen fit to provide us with a holiday at this time that we can use for visiting family, why not? this year i watched "the story of stuff" with little so he can understand why we don't go bananas buying everything in the store and why handmade gifts from recycled materials are so much better than prefab junk too. he gets it, he's worried about his planet (something i wish i could have spared him from but he needs a good point to remind him with when he is begging me for anther junky something in the store) and this season is pure destructive consumerism way out of control for most of the people we know. we choose something else but have a better time for it.
i read him santa stories and the other day he expressed a desire for the fantasy to be real instead of makebelieve. it sparked a good discussion about the magic of using your imagination which, i think, is a very good and permanent alternative to the magic of santa. he knows not to spoil it for other kids too, just like he doesn't tell them that the blue juice mommy puts in their lunch is poisonous paint. ha. he's good.

My parents never lied to me about Santa or anything like that. If I had kids, I wouldn't either.

Regarding white lies, I think they are ok. Like if your friend wants to know if the dress makes her look fat, you always say no.

I would tell my friend the truth about her clothes. I also want to know the truth.

Rawnatural, do you not participate with family for Christmas gatherings?

i don't like that very much either. i mean, i would rather hear the truth that the dress doesn't look good on me so i can change into something that does!
i am wondering, what is the difference between small lies and big ones? ones that are self-serving or ones that are designed to spare someone's feelings or otherwise "protect" them? is one admirable while the other is not?

i feel like being honest all the time allows me to trust what other people are saying. i notice when i lie, even small white lies (if there is really such a thing) it undermines my ability to trust. it plants the seeds of doubt within me and creates an environment of suspicion that i don't like.

while i wouldn't feel comfortable telling my friend that her a$$ looks fat in those pants, i want to be able to use my creativity to find a response that is truthful and constructive. whether that is to suggest a better alternative or to encourage someone to pursue their own likes even when they don't line up perfectly with my own. who am i to put my expectations and interpretations on her and her dress anyhow? i might think that dress is no good but it could be her hubby or partner's absolute favourite.

i think i'm trying to say that ultimately, what am i really accomplishing with my "nice" white lie? it may not be the thing i think it is and opting for the truth instead a better choice for me.

pursuing a natural lifestyle has given me cause to reexamine so many aspects of my life. it's all such a huge transformation, nothing is safe from the shake up!

what do you think?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2007 05:01PM by coco.

another thought about this... my mother is forever making up small "stories" about why she is late, why she left this thing or that thing behind, why she was speeding (to the police officer who pulled us over going too fast on a country road, tsk tsk), etc etc. and it makes me VERY uncomfortable. when i hear her willfully deceiving another i feel almost dirty inside. i am now a party to this untruth and it feels very heavy to me. it is particularly upsetting when she tells a "story" to my son. that is an opportunity for teaching lost. a few extra moments of explanation to illuminate something to him, that could have been a fine gift between the two of them. i end up telling him the truth usually anyhow, and then he thinks of gramma as a fib-teller, not good! where is the trust between them then? actually, i don't believe her a good deal of the time when she is telling me something that feels like a "story". why would i be exempt from her untruths when no one else is?

i see it as so futile as well. she is not less late or driving less fast, it doesn't make the forgotten item appear. i suppose it assuages her guilt about these things but how can that be true? now she has the added burden of guilt from not telling the truth, something we are taught from childhood is not right.

perhaps this lying is a self-perpetuating guilt machine (she was raised catholic), maybe it is a method by which she keeps her light from shining as brightly as it could. i do know that people in general can be such fine artist of self-sabotage, it is a deeply ingrained phenomenon. perhaps she doesn't see herself as deserving of trust and truth from others. hmm, that deserves more thought.

i see it though, her telling the truth, people being as forgiving and understanding as they are when they hear the "story", the truth setting her free from guilt, allowing her to ultimately take responsibility for her own reality, her own actions, her own self.

but then, there you go, i am talking about myself and my own should-be actions now, aren't i? ha.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2007 05:15PM by coco.

coco Wrote:

>
> i feel like being honest all the time allows me to
> trust what other people are saying. i notice when
> i lie, even small white lies (if there is really
> such a thing) it undermines my ability to trust.
> it plants the seeds of doubt within me and creates
> an environment of suspicion that i don't like.

I really like how you said this. I feel this way, too.

>
> while i wouldn't feel comfortable telling my
> friend that her a$$ looks fat in those pants, i
> want to be able to use my creativity to find a
> response that is truthful and constructive.
> whether that is to suggest a better alternative or
> to encourage someone to pursue their own likes
> even when they don't line up perfectly with my
> own. who am i to put my expectations and
> interpretations on her and her dress anyhow?

I'm totally with you on that. I call it the sweet, useful truth. So instead of saying yes your butt looks fat, I'd say something like, I like you in that other dress better, it shows off your figure better.

I find when I'm tempted to lie to someone, it really comes from trying to control their experience. Maybe I want them to like me, or not hate me, or I think they ought to feel a certain way. If I just get centered a bit with what's right for me, it's always telling the truth, expressing it in a way that's honest, loving, kind, helpful, but the 100% truth.

When my kids turned to me and asked if Santa was real. I asked them if they really wanted to know and then I told them the truth. I told them the spirit of Christmas was real but there was no actual Santa Claus. They were maybe 6 and 7 years old.

They are teenagers now and they tease me about it, but I ask them if I should have lied and they say no.

When I found out about Santa, I thought maybe Jesus was a made-up story too. I never forgot that and swore I wouldn't lie to my kids.

I'm glad to hear some people agree about not lying about Santa, because most people act like I am crazy.

Karen DeVeaux
[www.healingtype1diabetes.typepad.com]

Pakd4fun:

No I do not participate in family gatherings for Christmas. Apart from the religious reasons for not celebrating people feel I should do it "for the children." They claim that doing so promotes a better family atmosphere and strengthens friendships. The giving of gifts is a fine thing and no doubt deepens the bonds of love and friendship between friends and relatives. But I ask them: "are the appendages of Christmas such as Santa Claus and Christmas stockings really necessary before we can surprise our children, relatives and friends with a gift? When my cousin found out that Santa Claus wasn't real she then wondered if Jesus was real. Parents feel better about lying by calling it a fantasy, but suppose our children do the same things and call lies fantasies? Does that make it better? I feel that a practical gifts given at a time of need is more greatly appreciated than one given on a predetermined date out of a sense of duty. Leading a child to think he has received a gift from a mythical Santa does little to strengthen the bonds of love between parent and child. I also help family members see my point of view by asking them "what would Jesus think if he came down to earth and watched what was going on on HIS "birthday".

pakd4fun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The magic
> of Santa works through us. My oldest is 12 now
> and still believes in Santa. Her friends think
> she is just playing along but she really does
> believe. I am more than a little nervous about
> how she will react when she discovers the truth or
> will she be in her own home with her first child
> wondering what Santa will deliver? Santa is a
> spirit that is in everyone and that spirit is
> real. That is what I will tell them when i have
> to explain the lie.

pakd,

I like that, the magic of Santa. I don't have kids but imagine if I did I'd explain it that way. That Christmas is a time when people like to celebrate loving and goodness and gifts, that grownups can be funny sometimes and have created a fiction called Santa who personifies that, and they like to dress up and play pretend. It's part of the fun. I think they can enjoy the full magic and sweetness of Christmas without believing in Santa Claus.

On the subject of kids, IMHO being very literal with language helps. I used to teach technical writing and the language must be very precise. I learned how sloppy we can be. I used an example with my students: Telling a child to 'be good'. We can only 'be' what we are. That instruction is quite confusing when you think about it. It implies that the child must do something special to be good, in other words, that they are not inherently good (or else why would you need to tell them to be good?). In other words, they are bad. Is that the message we want to give? Is that the truth or a lie?

What we really mean when we tell them to 'be good' is we want them to do specific behavior. It might be 'do your homework before dinner and go to bed when the baby sitter tells you to.' It's always specific actions.

Anyhow, I used the analogy in class to explain how literal, precise and specific you must be when writing instructional manuals. And about 6 weeks into one class, a student came to me and said she had applied that principle to communicating with her 11 year old son. That she never told him to 'be good' anymore, or used general vague terms, she asked him to do the specific things she wanted. And she said it totally changed their relationship for the better. He'd been acting up before and there was quite a lot of friction between them that all disappeared. Amazing.

If you examine your language you may find different ways to express that are more honest. For instance, I think there are a lot of times parents make up or fudge answers because they don't want to tell their kids 'I don't know' they think they are protecting them. I think kids know when that is happening -- I know I did -- they may not be able to articulate it to themselves but it makes them feel uncomfortable. Perhaps they just feel the discomfort of the parent. But I think the simple truth is always best.

Descending soapbox, getting back to work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2007 06:41PM by greenie.

"Telling a child to 'be good'...is quite confusing when you think about it. It implies that the child must do something special to be good, in other words, that they are not inherently good (or else why would you need to tell them to be good?). In other words, they are bad. Is that the message we want to give? Is that the truth...?
...We can only 'be' what we are..."

oh, you are a brilliant duck. this very reason is why i don't say "good boy, good job" etc but focus on the action, "great shoe tying, that isn't how that word is spelled, try again". i think this kind of language is HUGE in the developing mind of a child while we just take it completely forgranted.

imagine if this language was new to you and someone shouted "watch out" as you were about to cross the street. would you take out your watch?

i read whatever i can find on this kind of thing, i suppose technical writing is a window into understanding language that i hadn't even thought of. thanks for that.

Neem Karoli Baba once instructed Ram Das to

“Love everyone and tell the truth.”

Some other thoughts:

[www.sustainableenterprises.com]

[www.geocities.com]

[www.simpleliving.net]

I'm exempt from Christmas. I'm going to a yoga class that morning then joining some friends for a hike.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2007 07:49PM by Lee_123.

It sounds like you may have deeper concerns than just telling the holiday lies. You may want to address the feelings within yourself about what you see in your mother first. While your mother is human and has flaws, you're an adult and now have to live with yourself. If you have turmoil over something then addressing this within yourself helps you. If you feel the need to assist your mother, you may want to research the best ways to do this before trying. This is a struggle I continue with today but with blessings will overcome.

IMO (unproven, unverified), the holiday lies are nothing more than political undercurrents designed to cause rifts and mistrust within families. Those who buy into the dishonesty sometimes end up irreparably damaged. What better way to be the salvation than to be able to point out the mistrust caused by parents who think they're providing joy through dishonesty?

Don't lie to your children about senseless things. There may be more than enough things in family or life that you may feel the need to not share or which to prevent your children from being exposed.

As far as being good or being bad, I believe humans have inherently a dual nature, good and evil. Telling a child to "be good" is the layman's way of saying "choose that within you which is better. I feel society and circumstance tend to steer a human towards good or bad, but ultimately it's these dual natures within us and our choices that mold us.

Just my opinion. thank you for allowing me to share.

[rawfoodtrip.blogspot.com]
[jugglingforjoy.com]

I think the psychology behind lies must be pretty deep stuff. We lie because we are afraid to be judged, afraid to hurt someone, afraid to upset some balance, afraid to truly be ourselves so we have to create a lie that makes us bigger/better, etc. We've never been allowed to truly be free and truly ourselves because of the way we've structured our society and what we are conditioned to believe is "right".

As for the holiday imaginary gift bringers, that's another kind of lie--one that is part of a tradition in our society. That doesn't make it right, of course. But, it's definitely different than other kinds of lies, however, since this is a culture-wide lie.

Honesty is always best. When we are honest and others have a problem with something we've said, they should speak up. Talking things out would be so much healthier than trying to avoid the discomfort by making up lies.

Opinion:

-Lying and hypocrisy is all about INTENDING one thing....and DOING another. It's all about planning to do something....and not doing anything. It's not as simple as 'truth'.....but rather a case of where what you are putting out jibes up with what you feel is going to bring the highest good in a circumstance.

-I do not lie, but will often decline to speak. Need to practice that more often!

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

yes, this thread is looking at other things than just the simple lie, that's true. and i certainly agree with addressing one's feelings and turmoil. i think i covered that when i said in the end that i was really talking about myself though. i'm not sure there is "research" that can be done into the ways to assists one's mother to change a bad habit but, hello, we are people not scientific trials here. i just tell her that she's lying when she does it and suggest she tell the truth. she is at least lying a bit less around me or becoming more aware of it when she does, i think it has been an unconscious reaction to feelings of guilt and now she is paying more attention to untruths that slip out of her mouth.

who exactly designed these "holiday lies" that are designed for such evil? i have a hard time buying into that philosophy. those traditions have been evolving over generations and while they have been grossly taken advantage of to promote products, they aren't rooted in ill intent.

"Telling a child to "be good" is the layman's way of saying choose that within you which is better"

you see, this is much too sofisticated for a child to understand. what a child hears is that they must work at it because they are not inherently good. children have a natural inclination to be sociable and to please but they will live up to what they perceive as being expected from them. if you treat a child like a brat, that child will anticipate that this is the way he or she is expected to behave and they will comply.
for me, raising these children is a lot about instilling mindfulness in them so that they see the situation entirely and can make decisions based on that. when my son does something that has a negative end result it isn't because he is malicious, rather he has been careless or thoughtless and not had in mind the reprecussions of his actions. this is a very slow process with children but one, i think, with the most positive, long lasting results.

along those lines, a little white lie to him may not seem like a big deal to me now but he takes that lesson on with him from here on out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2007 08:57PM by coco.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> raising these children is a lot about
> instilling mindfulness in them so that they see
> the situation entirely and can make decisions
> based on that.

I love this.

> when my son does something that has
> a negative end result it isn't because he is
> malicious, rather he has been careless or
> thoughtless and not had in mind the reprecussions
> of his actions.

Or it's just beyond his age/capacity. It's so great that you recognize this, so many parents think of their children as being bad, really, needing to be punished, when the child is just doing his/her best and needs help and instruction. Discipline/disciple = learning, teaching, instruction, not punishment.

Lies are often the creation of senseless "morality." The more free an atmosphere, the more honest it's capable of being. I have no problem with "lying" to someone who will act irrationally, and perhaps even harm me, if I tell them the truth.

doing his/her best and needs help and instruction.
> Discipline/disciple = learning, teaching,
> instruction, not punishment.


But that also depends on how one defines "punishment" We cannot be a society without repercussions. However, the repercussions should be designed not merely as a "payment of debt". Too many in society view "discipline" as nothing more than punishment and punishment as nothing more than repayment of a debt. "An eye for an eye" isn't even sufficient any more. Now days society wants vengeance, revenge, to "make <insert> pay".

We need punishment in the sense that those who are malicious towards others need to be taught effectively. Discipline and teaching does not exclude accountability and consequence, but rather utilizes it in a manner that instructs both the individual, and those who witness the act and/or disciplinary measures.

Just my opinion.

[rawfoodtrip.blogspot.com]
[jugglingforjoy.com]

Coco, it is ironic to me that we both have mother's who tend to lie easily and we have differing opinions about the Santa lie. I am only dishonest with my kids in this one particular example. The tooth fairy and the Easter bunny are all included. My kids have never asked me if Santa was real, only if I believe in him. I have always answered "yes" because I believe Santa lives within me and their dad. I think you are doing the only thing you can about your mom's lying. I try to avoid conversations with mine that might lead to a lie.

I believed that the Bible was fiction (I still believe a lot of it to be fiction) when I was a child because I could not differentiate between the stories my Grandma read out of Grimms Fairy Tales and the stories from the Bible.


> while i wouldn't feel comfortable telling my
> friend that her a$$ looks fat in those pants, i
> want to be able to use my creativity to find a
> response that is truthful and constructive.
> whether that is to suggest a better alternative or
> to encourage someone to pursue their own likes
> even when they don't line up perfectly with my
> own. who am i to put my expectations and
> interpretations on her and her dress anyhow?

>>I'm totally with you on that. I call it the sweet, useful truth. So instead of saying yes your butt looks fat, I'd say something like, I like >>you in that other dress better, it shows off your figure better.

I think with creativity we can usually find a good way to tell somebody the truth and the important trust will be kept intact.

Devric Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lies are often the creation of senseless
> "morality." The more free an atmosphere, the more
> honest it's capable of being. I have no problem
> with "lying" to someone who will act irrationally,
> and perhaps even harm me, if I tell them the
> truth.

On lying....
To add to this.... the less power you have in society, the more that this is true. People with money can often manipulate situations to solve their own needs,by simply buying what they need, whereas people with little money have to work together with other people, organizations, and agencies to meet their basic needs. I've often wondered if this is like, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg." But then I see some of the situations people get in, and it is to their great advantage to stretch the truth a little in order to get their basic needs met.

On Santa, and the holidays....
I am going to teach my kids the truth about Santa. I don't think it takes away from the "magic" of the moment, because kids don't care whether it came from Santa or Mom and Dad... the magic is in the coolest toy!! The magic is the newness of it. That we do all year-round. Otherwise I don't really like Christmas. Too many expectations that I have never been equipped to meet - a family that's totally into presents presents presents. This is the time of year I think about Jesus the LEAST, and I wish society would change in regards to the imprortantce of meaningless posessions and overabundance.

To me the perfect Christmas would be volunteering every weekend and getting out and really helping people. Taking a break from our daily routine and getting involved with someone who is worse off than me.

Just my two cents!

I think that something is going unsaid here, talking about lying in terms of an abstract action that others' engage in. so let me say this:

I have lied to:
my parents, brothers, friends, partners, teachers, grandparents, strangers, children, competitors, my journal, employers, neighbors...

I've done it to:
protect myself/others, hurt people, confuse people, play, get away with things, make things easier, save time, delay the truth, gain advantage, support

I've lied about:
money, homework, love, intentions, time, work, health, needs, sadness, being busy, being tired, desires

I think we want to be clean and light (as we strive for it in raw foods). And that's fantastic and excellent and ideal. But I know I will lie again. probably this week. or tomorrow. It's not virtuous. But pretending I don't and won't is a lie too. I'll try not to. I do less now than I did as a teenager. But I still lie to my parents, and the people I love. perhaps I'm still transitioning, and some of you are on the other side and practice this ideal. Certainly there are some who do in the world.

measure twice, cut once.

"In Watermelon Sugar the deeds were done and done again as my life is done in watermelon sugar." ~r.brautigan

I make paintings

oh dear. that sounds very "holier-than-thou-because-I-told-the-truth-about-my-lying"

I don't mean it so grandly. I'm voicing my faults.

eek. sorry if you feel offended. I don't know...

measure twice, cut once.

"In Watermelon Sugar the deeds were done and done again as my life is done in watermelon sugar." ~r.brautigan

I make paintings

shaine...
i think that you are the most honest here...we are imperfect beings even as much as we try to be flawless.. i say thank you for the honesty. even if we don't admit it i believe we all strecth the truth(lie) in some circumstances..like i said we are not perfect..i have moments where i embellish the truth,, i'm human living in an imperfect world..( i love your necklace..what exactly is it, it looks like a leaf? can you help me)
thanks...
brooke

pakd4fun, i'm hearing you about saying "yes" to the question "do you believe". it up to interpretation, that answer, but it comes from the heart.

oh shaine, no one who knows you even a little would think of you as preachy or holier than thou. thanks for your thoughts, i like how you took the concept personally and applied it to yourself. certainly, i have lied. i have omitted the truth. i have stretched the truth. whatever it is called and for whatever reason, it amounts to the same thing. the thing is though that it makes me feel bad. no matter if i have gotten away with something or gotten something that i wanted or whatever. i still feel bad. and i think that ultimately i'm turning away from something that wants and needs my attention. that if i can't speak the truth easily it's an indication of a place that i should look more closely at.

why do i say one thing when something else it true? what am i afraid of? what am i really risking by telling the truth?

i feel that those lies bind me to my "story", the one i make up to explain life, the one that is only true for me so long as i keep it in play and make it real.

for me it's about freedom. liberation from paradigms, from boxy thinking, from the way things "should" be. the lies and the lying only hurt me in the end.
i can't say that i am going to lie tomorrow or ever again. it's my goal not too and frankly, i feel SO much better when i consciously choose to speak the truth instead of giving in to the temptation to falsify something. it feels good. i feel real, i feel free, i feel connected to the person i gave that truth too.

for me, there are no big or small lies. there are only lies and they hurt to say them.

I agree with Coco, Shaine, I never would have jumped to the conclusion that you were preachy.

Have any of you ever seen that movie about the man and his boy in the camp in Italy in WWII? I think it is titled "It's A Beautiful Life." He lies to his boy throughout the whole ordeal to spare him the fear of what was really happening. Even walking toward his execution he acts silly to make his boy not know what was happening feel fear. That is an example of a good time to lie.

I saw Jamie Lee Curtis speak once and she said something that really made me think. Sometimes you might tell a lie and not even notice, like for example if someone calls to ask a favor and you tell them you can't do it and really you could but don't want to. Your kids hear you and know you are lying. She said her child pointed that out to her so now she tries to find a different way of declining without lying.

My parents did not teach me and my siblings that Santa was real. We read the Santa stories and watched the Santa movies all for fun...it was no different than any other fictional character. I do not feel like I was deprived at all as a child. It made me appreciate and respect my parents even more. Also, it put more of a focus on the real meaning of x-mas, instead on the commercial side.

I do not know how one should do it but I do believe that when I have kids I will teach them the truth. With me coming from a large family and at times hurting for money, we did not always get as much as other kids...which was perfectly fine but we understood why...Christmas was fantastic at our house. Now if I believed in Santa, I think it would of been hard to grasp...I would of wondered why Santa liked other kids more than me...was I bad and so forth? Now after seeing how much my parents went through to make sure that we had a "good" Christmas and all the commercialism of such a wonderful holiday, i do not know if I will even celebrate it when I get older. I think it would be awesome to take the money that is spent on Christmas and spread the love of Jesus Christ like going to nursing homes, orphanages, poor areas, etc...or giving money to charities...i think that is how i would like to spend my Christmas.

Well good luck with all your decisions...I'm not a parent but it is always difficult doing things differently than the world. But no matter how much people say we were deprived - we were not and I respect my parents for not lying to me ;-)

I had good intentions of not lying about Santa. Now I am stuck because my son still thinks he exists. He basically picked up on it when we moved to the US and now he believes in the whole Santa/Northpole/Reindeer thing.
I think tho if we stayed in Europe, he'd be believing on what the kids think there (my homecountry is Germany and many kids are told the baby Jesus sends the gifts).
He knows that parents and family give gifts but thinks that Santa gives some on top of that ...greedy huh? Lol...
I'm also quite the "fake" when it comes to Christmas and religion. I never go to church but I basically tear up when I see the nativity scenes this time of year or hear "Silent Night" and I love the Christmas story and also have to work hard not to cry when reading it to my kids. I have also been known for randomly sobbing on Good Friday even though I tell people I am an atheist most of the time because I don't want to be put in any religious category. Teh truth is smewhere in between I guess.