Quote

Posted by: arugula (IP Logged)
Date: March 03, 2008 03:52PM


I think it's wrong because we don't have to. It's wrong because it's cruelty to sentient creatures with personalities, faces, mothers, having brains that light up when they solve problems, having emotions, etc. It's wrong because it's about an order of magnitude less efficient than eating plants. It's wrong because it's the single biggest contributor to global warming according to the FAO which I believe.

Given all that we know now it seems very unchristian to me to eat meat.

Time for a second coming, with environmental concerns.

I wholly respect and support this mindset. I respect and honor anyone's reasons for eating the way they do because it is a personal choice.

My spiritual path frowns on the consumption of animal flesh. I formerly did not take this very seriously. I thought, hey, I'm not killing anyone, I'm not boinking anyone's spouse, I'm not covetous, I help old people with their groceries. I figured the animal flesh thing wasn't a big deal.

Recently however, I have begun to think otherwise. I've gotten to the point where I really can't eat animal flesh at all. It disgusts me.

Also, I'm trying to have a smaller footprint. I have never been a hoarder, a covetous person, prone to materialism. Trying to not contribute to the destruction of the planet is important to me.

I think if you want to take a sentient life, you should go out and kill it yourself, feel the warm body turn cold, and drain the blood and guts out yourself. At least then you would perhaps have some idea of the value of what you have done, the life you have taken. Perhaps not. But maybe. I've found that people who hunt and eat what they hunt, not trophy collectors, sometimes feel more gratitude for the animal that gave its life than people who buy their chemically sanitized animal flesh in the supermarket. To most people, the flesh in the package at the supermarket is just another package with writing on it. Twinkies, chicken thighs, catsup, Diet Coke. Just packages with writing on it. All good because Big Brother will take care of us.

I love Big Brother. :/ Off on a tangent. Forgive me. All these pixels died for my sins...


Lee


[www.dhamma.org]

Things were also very different when Jesus was around... why do it when you don't have to? And I'm sure there weren't concerns like overfishing, factory farms, global warming and all these other issues that are now connected to meat eating. Very different context.

I'll just state up front that I'm not a debater and I don't argue my position on anything. It's my choice. I don't eat meat. I just said I'm not against it. If that offends anyone, I'm sorry, but it's your job to find a way to deal with it. I don't feel the need to justify myself.

I'm wholly against new age spiritualism, and there's a lot of it in this lifestyle, but I haven't challenged anyone or made jokes about it. I respect their views. I hope the same courtesy can be extended.

when i first became a vegetarian at 18 years old, i did it because i just felt yucky and heavy after eating meat. i was also a long distance runner at the time, and found that i functioned better on the field if i didn't have a gut full of undigested food in my stomach. i had a very utilitarian outlook towards vegetarianism, and eating in general. since i don't think hawks, bears, wolves, or sharks are morally delinquent, i similarly felt that humans who ate meat were on pretty solid ethical ground.

i learned a lot about vegetarianism in those next few years. i still viewed the "ethical vegetarians" and the animal rights folks as a bit precious, but learming more about factory farming made me even more convinced about the health risks of meat eating, and also started awakening my empathy. then an amazing transformation took place... because i was no longer "guilty" of eating meat, i could sort of step out of the natural self-justification loop and consider meat eating from a more detached viewpoint. i realized that it felt good not to be a part of the killing! i could look at a field full of grazing cows without a need to "dehumanize" them to protect myself. i could really see them. i hadn't known that i was feeling guilty about being part of the killing cycle until i got away from it, then those feelings surfaced.

so i began as a vegetarian for health reasons, but after a few years i more strongly identified myself as an ethical vegetarian. i never looked down my nose at the attitudes or practices of people who did eat meat, because i saw it as necessary psychological self-protection on their parts.

it should be noted that kids raised vegetarian really GET IT. kids love animals naturally, they are fascinated with them, and they also naturally assign them feelings and rights on par with our own. my daughter knew she was "a vegetarian" and that it meant she didn't eat meat -- whatever that was. but i remember when she first realized what exactly a meat eater was eating, and made the connection that it was the result of the animal being killed for that purpose... her natural shock, horror, pain, and confusion were difficult to witness. i don't think she is unique, i think kids are basically all the same, and when kids who have grown up eating meat, in any culture, come to that same realization, they experience the same shock, horror, pain, and confusion. but because they also realize at some level their complicity and the complicity of they their beloved family members who have been eating and enjoying meat, they sublimate those feelings as a psychological defense mechanism. this sublimation, and the associated desensitization that must accompany it, is precisely what allows the kind of animal cruelty that is prevalent in modern animal husbandry practices, not to mention treatment of animals as commodity in general. i'll go farther then that, it not only allows it, it CAUSES it.

CL, i believe as you do, that you only sin against god (or yourself, in my view the same thing) when you act against your internalized moral code. i believe it is *possible* to eat anything, even another human being, and be completely blameless from a spiritual perspective. (wow, that's kind of a bold statement. i'm going to run with it, though...) but i also think that as children that moment of realization about what meat eating is and the subsequent guilt/shame that occurs runs deep, and most people are not even aware that it exists within them. you would have to have both awareness of that AND complete internalization of your christian interpretation of meat eating for it not to affect you on some level. i can't see inside your heart, and i can't know ANYTHING for certain except my own experience, which only applies to me, but i'll be interested how you view this issue after you haven't eaten meat for a few years.

Simple Living Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll just state up front that I'm not a debater
> and I don't argue my position on anything. It's
> my choice. I don't eat meat. I just said I'm not
> against it. If that offends anyone, I'm sorry,
> but it's your job to find a way to deal with it.
> I don't feel the need to justify myself.
>
> I'm wholly against new age spiritualism, and
> there's a lot of it in this lifestyle, but I
> haven't challenged anyone or made jokes about it.
> I respect their views. I hope the same courtesy
> can be extended.


Hey, SL. I'm not any type of "spiritual" and I know you don't want to debate, but you could look into eating meat instead of the eggs and dairy that you consume(d) [I don't know if that was a one-time thing or what]. Meat causes less harm; the animals are killed sooner and suffer less than animals that are enslaved for their secretions. Just something to think about.

UtopianLife, that's a good point. I have quite a few utilitarian vegan friends, and they always maintain that a simple way to reduce suffering to others to to cut out eggs and then dairy and then meat, not in that order. Not to start a debate! It's just interesting, kind of counter-intuitive. But, yes, it has to do with the amount of suffering of the sentient animals in the factory farms. I support anyone reducing their support of these systems in any amount, even if they don't become vegan or vegetarian. But it's important to think about.

Simple Living Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not going to be popular with this, but I'm not
> against eating meat. I believe animals that are
> being killed for food should be treated humanely,
> but I'm not against eating meat.
>
> As a Christian, I base this on the life of Jesus.
> He wasn't a vegetarian. It's recorded that He ate
> fish and lamb. He fed the multitude with loaves
> and fishes - which He wouldn't have done if He was
> a vegetarian. All food, including meat, was
> declared clean by Jesus in Acts 10:10-15.
>
> What the Bible tells us is that we should not
> force our convictions on this issue onto other
> people. Romans 14:2-3 tells us, "One man's faith
> allows him to eat everything, but another man,
> whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man
> who eats everything must not look down on him who
> does not, and the man who does not eat everything
> must not condemn the man who does, for God has
> accepted him."
>
> Whatever a person decides to eat is acceptable to
> God as long as we thank Him for providing (1
> Thessalonians 5:18). 1 Corinthians 10:31 declares,
> "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do,
> do it all for the glory of God."
>
>
> So, personally, I'm not against eating meat at
> all. I just choose not to. If fewer animals are
> killed because of my choice, that's a great perk!

Cool perspective Simple Living and thanks for the insight. I respect your opinion and choices. I do believe in God also and the passage you quoted feels like it's speaking to not judging others is how I interpret it. The bible was written 2000 years ago and was more than likely rewritten by who knows who. ;-) Just my opinion. I think we have to consider what's taking place today in the present moment now and how relevant those words really are to us now. As an aside, I tend to look at Jesus' agnostic teachings that were found in the last century and it seems to me he did not condone eating meat from these writings. Anyway, I don't think God is all about torturing animals either and perhaps we were a little bit more humane back in the day when we were preparing them for food consumption? Similar to how the native american people have a communion with their animals before they're killed - they ask them and have a spiritual, sacred agreement. We are far from this with our destructive slaughter houses. I think Jesus would totally be a hippie free unconditional loving raw food eating dude if he were here today. Just my opinion. :-D



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2008 01:42AM by rawangel.

Ah I meant Jesus' Gnostic teachings. :-)

I am not eating meat now, only because of health reasons. With modern farming techniques and environmental pollution etc, I don't think eating meat is healthy. I also believe firmly that humans eat too much meat. I will have a little biodynamic chicken occasionally when my excema is cured, but until then I'm steering clear of meat.
I do have biodynamic yoghurt though which I believe is beneficial for my body
Grayzie

- its sooo expensive to eat organic foods...
- I'm always cold...tough i may not eating enough calories...?
- Peoples judgement... When i say that i try to eat mostly raw food, they always have the "WHATS WRONG WITH U????" look on their face...

I don't have a problem with eating meat either. Nothing to do with religion(I'm a pretty hard core atheist). I just don't see anything wrong with it.
I have a problem with torturing animals that we use for food which is what goes on on a factory farms. I have a problem with the horrible affects raising animals for food has on the environment. I have problem with animals being raised for food that are pumped full of chemicals.
I don't have a problem with eating me that is raised humanely and organically and slaughtered humanely. I personally don't eat meat because it makes my stomach hurt horribly, because high cholestorol, heart disease, and obesity run in my family big time and cutting out meat helps with that.
But to each their own. Honestly my mouth still waters if I smell someone cooking bacon. But I won't eat it. And I wish they wouldn't either. And I've never seen organic bacon in the store that's for sure.

Very well said, Brenna! My sentiments exactly - except for the atheist part. I'm rather partial to Jesus, personally!

I did neglect to mention in my post that I firmly believe all animals should be treated ethically, humanely and with proper care. I apologize for missing this point. I am a huge animal lover! I've worked with animals in the past and think the world would be a pretty sad place without them.

>"slaughtered humanely"<

this just sounds like such an oxymoron to me...how is it done exactly? i can't imagine being "considerately" murdered myself. hmm...

"slaughtered" is just the general term for killing the animal. Killing an animal can be done humanely.

I have a question for those who hold the belief and heartfelt conviction that animals shouldn't be killed for food. I ask this most sincerely and do NOT want a debate. (Especially because I don't know where I stand on the issue.)

I fully understand, appreciate, respect and honor people's beliefs when it comes to not eating animals. I love that people's hearts can be so kind! But, how about the human death penalty? How do you stand on that?

Also, a meat-eater at work brought up a very viable point. He said to ask if vegans and vegetarians treat all people with the love and concern that they do animals? He said to ask if they're treating people as humanely and non-cruelly as they want animals treated? He said to ask if they are as considerate of the feelings and rights of humans as they are of animals? If so, then he said to say that he utterly respects and supports you in all your endeavors to protect animals. If not, he said that we, as vegans and vegetarians, need to evaluate some of our priorities. (He's standing behind me to make sure I'm stating this very kindly and respectfully. He's not presenting a challenge or an argument, but just "something to think about the next time we treat another person badly."

Excellent point, Simple Living!

What about this - if you could interview the prison population, and find out what percentage of people who are imprisoned for having committed violent crimes against other people, I wonder what percentage of those would be vegetarian / vegan / raw or any variation of ...?

I'm guessing not many, but you never know.

On the other hand, I believe I read somewhere that Hitler was a vegetarian. So I wouldn't want to make any promises that being a vegetarian guarantees anything about the person's compassion in general.

In my home, the dad is a meat-eating SAD eater, and the mom (me) is a raw vegan. I give my husband total respect about what he choses to eat, even prepare all his meals just the way he likes. Otherwise, I wouldn't feel right about expecting equal consideration from everyone for the choices I make. I try to present both sides in a positive respectful way to our kids, and as much as possible allow them to make their own best choices (now that they are all teenagers). Sometimes they choose to be raw, sometimes veggie, sometimes not, but I'm glad they have an overall open and intelligent approach to it all. It's extra work, but I am hoping it will all be worth it in the end.

Sapphire

Simple Living Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "slaughtered" is just the general term for killing
> the animal. Killing an animal can be done
> humanely.
>
> I have a question for those who hold the belief
> and heartfelt conviction that animals shouldn't be
> killed for food. I ask this most sincerely and do
> NOT want a debate. (Especially because I don't
> know where I stand on the issue.)
>
> I fully understand, appreciate, respect and honor
> people's beliefs when it comes to not eating
> animals. I love that people's hearts can be so
> kind! But, how about the human death penalty?
> How do you stand on that?
>
> Also, a meat-eater at work brought up a very
> viable point. He said to ask if vegans and
> vegetarians treat all people with the love and
> concern that they do animals? He said to ask if
> they're treating people as humanely and
> non-cruelly as they want animals treated? He said
> to ask if they are as considerate of the feelings
> and rights of humans as they are of animals? If
> so, then he said to say that he utterly respects
> and supports you in all your endeavors to protect
> animals. If not, he said that we, as vegans and
> vegetarians, need to evaluate some of our
> priorities. (He's standing behind me to make sure
> I'm stating this very kindly and respectfully.
> He's not presenting a challenge or an argument,
> but just "something to think about the next time
> we treat another person badly."


Killing can be done humanely? Your definition of "humane" includes killing? Wow, I'd hate to be treated humanely (my definition) by you! Would you want to be killed humanely right now since it sounds so great to you?

I am opposed to the death penalty. I think it's ridiculous to state, "Oh, it's wrong to kill, we will punish you by killing you." Probably the most hypocritical decision ever made.

Don't believe everything you read. If Jesus ate meat it wasn't because it was His natural design to do so. Nature is a part of God. If you are Christian, than for you nature is God's creation. When you go against "your" nature as an animal, you are going against God. I consider my spirituality to be the biggest reason I don't eat animals. If I don't salivate at the site of an animal alive, and don't want to run it down and tear into it with my teeth, than I know I am not a meat eater. My instinct and physiology is God given and I will not go against that no matter what some good ol' boys wrote in a book over a thousand years ago. I learned when I was a kid that I have to do what's right in my heart, even if it the Bible tells me what I know is wrong is alright. A lot of those dudes obviously had their own agenda. The bible refers to us as "sheep." God told me I was a human, not a sheep.

I have noticed when my husband eats meat his mood darkens and he becomes a little confrontational. He goes long periods without it and so it is more noticeable than ever before. I know I have read some things like this before, but it is my thought that there would be less aggression and war if humans would eat the way nature/God intended. Because of meat eating, we have disrupted the complete balance of our planet. We could feed the world by farming the land used for cows. Instead the cows are infecting our spinach with their feces.

I don't believe in the death penalty. That is condoning killing. Also I am respectful of all creatures from bugs to humans. I do kill in direct self defense. That is a God given instinct. We kill fire ants and bugs that invade and become harmful to our health.

I do want the option of a humane death should I be suffering a slow and painful death as do my animals that are suffering. I have put my three closest friends to sleep (two dogs and a cat) and I believe it was the right thing to do. I believe that is an example of a humane death.

Hitler was crazy for other reasons.

I think the death penalty is a completely different issue. I am against it, but the circumstances are so different--killing an innocent, completely sentient animal when not necessary is so easily wrong. I also want to note--eating meat does affect others, not just ourselves. I don't preach because it's not effective. But it is a choice that affects others, "live and let live" is only something you can say when *you* are in a safe place, because it doesn't affect you. But that doesn't make it right.

Hitler wasn't a vegetarian, though apparently he ate mostly that way for digestive reasons. [www.snopes.com]

well, i'm in the same space as utopian life here a bit. if i wouldn't want it done to me, and i don't, how can i qualify any sort of forced death as "humane"? that goes against the very definition of humane: merciful, kind, kindly, kindhearted, tender, compassionate, gentle, sympathetic; benevolent, benignant, charitable.

when i think of it in terms of doing it to another person is it kind or any of those things? no. not unless it is an assisted suicide in which case i do support it, and the putting to sleep of an aged animal that is in pain, i also support that. but to kill a creature in it's prime, a sentient being who is most likely in fear and certainly feels that pain? how can i condone that? for what reason is it done? certainly not for my good, there are many alternatives to taking a life that benefit me as much or more.

the death penalty? no, i am not in favour. much criminal behavior is a symptom of societal values and pressures, when we are more willing to end lives rather than find solutions to the behavior in the first place, we are sweeping the problem under the rug. this bandaid solution solves nothing and is reflective of the lack of respect and value placed on individuals that leads to the criminal behavior in the first place. when people are valued that is relected in the behavior of everyone.

does your co-worker mean to ask if i am giving people the same consideration of not eating them, stealing their young, crippling them, caging them for life, keeping them constantly pregnant and hooking them up to milking machines, killing them for their skin, fur, bones, organs etc? if so then of course. no one would think to do that sort of thing to another person (except some people in the military, sadly).
but i think the question had a rather different intention. as if to say that a vegan must be ever kindly and gentle in every action to validate the choice not to eat animals ~ but that isn't balanced or realistic.
i don't give other drivers the finger when i'm in the car, i return lost items to a lost and found without looking for something valuable to steal first, i smile and am friendly, i hold doors, i donate to charity, etc etc etc. aside from that what exactly was the point of the question? have i never lost my temper? of course i have. have i acted selfishly? sure. what that has to do with diet is escaping me though.

eta, i don't talk about this unless i am asked btw, i am not preachy about my life choices irl and don't even discuss it generally unless it is in context.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2008 12:02AM by coco.

I had a strange dream a few nights ago that I had a child, it involved breast feeding, and a lot of mothering-related things. This gave me the spontaneous consideration--a consideration, since I was formerly so detached from my own womanhood, children and a lot of other things, that had never occurred to me before as a vegan. I imagined, what if I took all the great time and care, like so many mothers take, to have a healthy body, and do everything I can to nourish my baby? All the fuss with yoga, nutrition, the entire process of an ecstatic home birth--all things I want to do for myself. I thought about how much I love my boyfriend now, and if we were ever to have a child together--the incredible magnitude of those feelings! The real miracle of birth! How PRECIOUS that child would be!

And then, after such great care, such emotion... having something as absolutely vital as your own milk stolen? Stolen! What would you want to DO to the person who would try and take something like that away from you? *Let alone being hooked up to a machine while standing in your own feces until your nipples bled and grew infected...

It was quite a realization. I've been dairy-free for about two years, but that was honestly the first time I viewed it beyond the eyes of a self-serving consumer or even self-serving health seeker. How painful, cruel, violating, angering, and above all, what an assault on new life in the world. Before, even last month, I could have looked at a scoop of mango ice cream and thought, "Man, that looks delicious." When you think about what it really is...

I got a book called Skinny Bitch for Christmas that has some eye-opening interviews with former slaughterhouse employees. I was always vegetarian because "I didn't like killing the animals," but it takes time and a lot of courage to look into yourself and accept those horrors are really going on in the industry, if for X number of decades you were a part of it.

Ha, in a way, to make this not a digression, that's another challenge about being raw--finding the power to totally forgive and make peace with yourself. :O

It seems his co-workers thinks that we want his approval? I couldn't care one way or another whether his co-worker approves of me or not.

That's an interesting observation about your husband pakd. I've noticed that since I stopped eating meat last May, that I have been infinitely less "aggro", nicer to people when I'm driving etc. I think you are right about the balance.

...as far as the death penalty goes, I was against it even when I ate meat, which is hypocritical because each meal was in fact a death sentence for some living being.

I didn't go raw vegan for ethical reasons, but the more I live this way, the more important the ethics of my lifestyle become.

Aloha Nui Loa,

Greg

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices. - William James

There is no pill that can be swallowed,
There is no guru, that can be followed, - Michael Franti (Pray For Grace)

The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion. - Albert Camus

Thanks for the clarification rost0037. I should have probably not even made the comment, because even if Hitler was a vegetarian (albeit part-time), he wasn't motivated by compassionate reasons, so it isn't a fair comparison.

As for the death penalty, I have never had a loved one violently murdered. I don't honestly know what it would take for me to feel that justice had been served in that event. I hope I never find out.

Years ago I met a man whose son had been brutally murdered at school. He pointed out that the killer was a vicim of horrible bullying and abuse at school. He felt the greatest good was to try to find ways to put a stop this kind of bullying before things became this explosive, and I agree totally. But I don't know if I would be such a big person in that circumstance.

Sapphire

Simple Living Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Killing an animal can be done
> humanely.

that is an opinion, not a fact. in MY opinion, humane killing would be if the animal would suffer more if left alive (if seriously injured, ill, etc.). also in my opinion, there are degrees of cruelty involved in the slaughter of animals for food, but its all cruel.

> I fully understand, appreciate, respect and honor
> people's beliefs when it comes to not eating
> animals. I love that people's hearts can be so
> kind! But, how about the human death penalty?
> How do you stand on that?

me personally = against it 100%.

> Also, a meat-eater at work brought up a very
> viable point. He said to ask if vegans and
> vegetarians treat all people with the love and
> concern that they do animals? He said to ask if
> they're treating people as humanely and
> non-cruelly as they want animals treated? He said
> to ask if they are as considerate of the feelings
> and rights of humans as they are of animals? If
> so, then he said to say that he utterly respects
> and supports you in all your endeavors to protect
> animals. If not, he said that we, as vegans and
> vegetarians, need to evaluate some of our
> priorities. (He's standing behind me to make sure
> I'm stating this very kindly and respectfully.
> He's not presenting a challenge or an argument,
> but just "something to think about the next time
> we treat another person badly."

disguised in your coworkers respectful and kind inquiry is the often-expressed and i think convenient belief that vegans and animal rights activists (and the two get lumped together, and it ain't necessarily so...) are so wrapped up in animal causes that they don't care about their fellow man. this criticism is similar to the one leveled by the left at abortion rights activists, that they don't care nearly so much about fetuses AFTER they are born. neither of these criticisms is inherently correct, i believe, but a way to discount anothers passionate belief about an uncomfortable moral subject (if you were REALLY such a good person, you'd care equally as much about X). please note, i'm not saying that your co-worker was being disrespectful or unkind. if you vouch for him/her, i believe you that the inquiry was coming from a place of genuine interest.

humans, as you know, are a tough-to-get-along with bunch. they run their blenders at 5:00 in the morning, and do all sorts of other things to piss us off that cute baby cows just don't do. vegans are no more or less challenged in our daily efforts to be kind, considerate, and caring towards our fellow man than the omnivore. i would predict that they would be more likely to have a guiding philosophy that includes nonviolence. but whether they are more or less likely to cut you off in traffic... all bets are off.

i wonder if you or your co-worker would to commit to watching this online film: Earthlings [video.google.com] far from the often poorly-conceived and overly-dramatically-argued animal rights propaganda, this movie presents what i feel to be an incredibly logical and sound argument about the moral implications, and the bitter realities, of the attitude towards and treatment of animals by human beings. this argument is backed up by some truly thought-provoking (and tough to watch) video. its not just about the slaughter of animals for food, but humanity's absolute dependence on animals at every level of our lives (for pets, food, clothing, entertainment, and scientific research) and also illustrates our complete disrespect for these so-called "non-human providers." not for the feint of heart!

1. Being able to socialize with others (family/friends). Eating is such a central part of socializing.

2. Not always feeling full or satisfied on raw foods

3. Lots of conflicing information! Doubts as to whether raw is really that much healthier than cooked. Skepticism from time to time.

4. Becoming too obsessive about food.



[minou-minou.blogspot.com]
myspace.com/summer33ny

maui_butterfly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Simple Living Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Killing an animal can be done
> > humanely.
>
> that is an opinion, not a fact. in MY opinion,
> humane killing would be if the animal would suffer
> more if left alive (if seriously injured, ill,
> etc.). also in my opinion, there are degrees of
> cruelty involved in the slaughter of animals for
> food, but its all cruel.
>
> > I fully understand, appreciate, respect and
> honor
> > people's beliefs when it comes to not eating
> > animals. I love that people's hearts can be so
> > kind! But, how about the human death penalty?
> > How do you stand on that?
>
> me personally = against it 100%.
>
> > Also, a meat-eater at work brought up a very
> > viable point. He said to ask if vegans and
> > vegetarians treat all people with the love and
> > concern that they do animals? He said to ask
> if
> > they're treating people as humanely and
> > non-cruelly as they want animals treated? He
> said
> > to ask if they are as considerate of the
> feelings
> > and rights of humans as they are of animals?
> If
> > so, then he said to say that he utterly
> respects
> > and supports you in all your endeavors to
> protect
> > animals. If not, he said that we, as vegans
> and
> > vegetarians, need to evaluate some of our
> > priorities. (He's standing behind me to make
> sure
> > I'm stating this very kindly and respectfully.
> > He's not presenting a challenge or an argument,
> > but just "something to think about the next
> time
> > we treat another person badly."
>
> disguised in your coworkers respectful and kind
> inquiry is the often-expressed and i think
> convenient belief that vegans and animal rights
> activists (and the two get lumped together, and it
> ain't necessarily so...) are so wrapped up in
> animal causes that they don't care about their
> fellow man. this criticism is similar to the one
> leveled by the left at abortion rights activists,
> that they don't care nearly so much about fetuses
> AFTER they are born. neither of these criticisms
> is inherently correct, i believe, but a way to
> discount anothers passionate belief about an
> uncomfortable moral subject (if you were REALLY
> such a good person, you'd care equally as much
> about X). please note, i'm not saying that your
> co-worker was being disrespectful or unkind. if
> you vouch for him/her, i believe you that the
> inquiry was coming from a place of genuine
> interest.
>
> humans, as you know, are a tough-to-get-along with
> bunch. they run their blenders at 5:00 in the
> morning, and do all sorts of other things to piss
> us off that cute baby cows just don't do. vegans
> are no more or less challenged in our daily
> efforts to be kind, considerate, and caring
> towards our fellow man than the omnivore. i would
> predict that they would be more likely to have a
> guiding philosophy that includes nonviolence. but
> whether they are more or less likely to cut you
> off in traffic... all bets are off.
>
> i wonder if you or your co-worker would to commit
> to watching this online film: Earthlings
> [video.google.com]
> 3661048967 far from the often poorly-conceived
> and overly-dramatically-argued animal rights
> propaganda, this movie presents what i feel to be
> an incredibly logical and sound argument about the
> moral implications, and the bitter realities, of
> the attitude towards and treatment of animals by
> human beings. this argument is backed up by some
> truly thought-provoking (and tough to watch)
> video. its not just about the slaughter of animals
> for food, but humanity's absolute dependence on
> animals at every level of our lives (for pets,
> food, clothing, entertainment, and scientific
> research) and also illustrates our complete
> disrespect for these so-called "non-human
> providers." not for the feint of heart!

Thank you, Maui_Butterfly!

Charlie isn't the sort to be mean or even challenge someone in their beliefs. He's actually quite the introvert. (I can say this now that I'm home!) He's a good guy. A deep thinker, as they say. He likes pondering questions and people's answers to them. To be honest, I can't say that I'm sure he's a meat eater or not. I assumed he was by the questions. I didn't even think of asking him! He came over to ask me why I was eating raw food. (Someone at work blabbed.) I was on the forums at the time and he asked me if I would ask a question for him about the thread I was in. He was genuinely interested. If your answer, and the video, present good enough logic and reason to him, he's not too proud to change his own opinion on any subject. Who knows, you may have just reached someone.

My point about killing being done humanely is that there are ways to do it where the death is instantaneous, without suffering. That is a fact. Not all death is cruel. There's a time to be born and a time to die, for all living things. Animals kill people all the time, too. Like I said, I'm not here to debate the subject. I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree. I'm not out to change anyone's mind to my way of thinking.

You raise a good point about vegetarians and vegans automatically being lumped in with animal activists. It's not a fair thing to do. I guess even I unconsciously did it, too, along with Charlie. I apologize for that. It was unintentional. I understand how unfair that is because, as a Christian, I often get lumped in with those who call themselves "Christians," but don't live it biblically. Like the Westboro Baptist Church people who go around picketing funerals and slinging hate speech all over the place "in the name of God." I can assure you that God has no part in what they're doing. Christianity often gets lumped as one big, American, white man thing when it's not at all.

I can tell you that Charlie will definitely watch the video you suggested. If it's not for the faint of heart, then I have to rule myself out. I have a very weak stomach. I've seen a little of the videos of animals being abused by slaughterhouses and it just makes me incredibly sad and angry. (Not to mention incredibly queazy!) No living thing should be treated that way. Personally, I could never harm another living thing intentionally. If meat was made illegal I'd support that. If someone chooses to eat it, I don't see that I have the right to tell them they shouldn't. I guess I'm more neutral about it than anything else.

Most importantly I see it this way for me: My faith is the most important thing in my life. I believe the Bible is the true, infallible Word of God. If Jesus didn't condemn eating meat, eating it yet Himself, then I would be putting myself above Him to say that it's wrong to eat it, saying that I know better than He does. The Bible doesn't say we should eat meat either. I choose not to. I hope it's enough for people here to accept that I choose not to eat it,

please know that i am not judging anyone who chooses to eat meat. most of the people i love best in the world eat meat, i certainly don't love them any less because of it. i am not on a mission to convert anyone, either. if someone asks me if i think its inhumane to slaughter animals, i will offer my opinion and say yes, but if someone asks me if i think they are wrong to eat meat, i would not be able to answer that question for them. i try (i REALLY try) to keep my focus on the one person i can know or do anything about -- me. and i believe we are all doing exactly what we are supposed to be doing at exactly the right moment for our own highest good. no mistakes. no sins. that extends to me, the meat eater, and even those doing the deed on the killing floor of the slaughterhouses. in my worldview God = reality and i don't believe in an indifferent or an uncaring God.

Phantom, that is a beautiful dream.

Sapphire, good point about Hitler. Also, I understand what you are saying about a murdered love one--I still don't think a state-sponsored death penalty is a good idea, but I know that some people close to me would take matters into their own hands if anything horrible happened to me. That doesn't mean it is the right choice, but it is understandable.

Interestingly enough, one of my close friends was a dedicated Catholic for years. He became interested in animal rights, and initially found many quotes that supported his beliefs in the Bible. But over time, he became troubled by the attitude of the Church and Bible towards animals. It conflicted with his own experiences with his dogs that he loved. So he is no longer Christian. I don't know that the two beliefs are incompatible, but I found it fascinating how he viewed things and dealt with them. Not trying to make anyone question their faith, though --that is for sure people's own business

> I can tell you that Charlie will definitely watch
> the video you suggested. If it's not for the
> faint of heart, then I have to rule myself out. I
> have a very weak stomach.

if at all interested, you can listen to the audio narration without watching the video part (monitor off). its STILL very good that way.