justice

more than life itself

don't ask me why

sounds crazy
and unromantic even

but i love justice

and people who are warriors for peace

they are my idol

and i think they always feel love within

because of the correct way they lead their lives

despite the storm

justice moves me more than
any other accomplishment

justice is more impressive
than any fame

or wealth

justice can be quiet
and can be wrested from things unquiet

and the process can hurt
because one is going against a dark force

and may come out tattered
and alone

but the diamond is shining brightly
even if no one else can see it

it cannot prevent it from shining brightly

brightly

sometimes
i think

this is the only thing that can save me

correct living

it has its own happiness

invisible

but real

I agree with the sentiment LaV, but what is justice ?
I don't mean to be pedantic here, but I find that the very meaning we attribute to such a thing is everything.

BTW... thanks for putting some love back into the board.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2008 07:44AM by Lightform.

I think there are many ways to show love on this board.

Some, live riverhousebill and omega, and many others, care-- love humanity-- so deeply that they post many messages and 'wake-up calls' that appeal to those who want to create more justice, freedom and equality in society.

Others, like LaV and Lightform and many others, care-- love humanity-- just as much, post beautiful poetry and inspirational prose and guidance that affects us at a deep level, helping us to rise above the fray and find our inner voice of love, joy and peace.

I love all of your contributions, and I personally benefit from reading both types of posts.

I think the only time love is missing on this board is when people completely close their minds and put up walls of judgment and anger. Debate doesn't have to be a bad thing; I think we've made a lot of progress lately on this board in this regard. It takes skill and practice to learn how to dialogue about ideas; it's a learning curve and we're getting there.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

La Veronique-
Great post. I love Justice as well. He is my teacher and I am his student. I love it that way.

<<I agree with the sentiment LaV, but what is justice ?
I don't mean to be pedantic here, but I find that the very meaning we attribute to such a thing is everything.>>

yeah, its all personal too

there can be justice in the employment arena when the person that is most qualified gets the job instead of the person that has the most "personality" and is the most "favored"

same goes for promotions etc.
i guess i would be talking about "technical " positions here and not one that requires gobs of customer service interaction

justice in a relationship sometimes means letting go of each other and calling it off even though it can hurt because the alternative would be living a LIE

that is also JUSTICE though don't ask me why

justice is when someone wrongfully slanders another person ruining that person's reputation
and someone goes after that individual and brings them to "justice" clearing the other person's name

justice is paying people a LIVING wage
instead of pretending that the cost of housing and living is not triple the cost of certain low paying jobs


justice is when certain corporations take responsibility for their egregious errors instead of sloughing off that responsibility to others


justice is not having citizens be an accomplice to gubernatorial crimes
via their taxes

justice is repealing laws that let officials spy on you because you don't kiss up to them . they don't even believe their OWN lies but we should?

justice quite frankly
is the overhaul of all injustices

justice
like other things

seems like some fantasy

i've always had a lot of imagination though

go figure

I love your definitions of justice, LaV!

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

okay,

so yeah LIghtform
to answer your question instead of giving u these cardboard cut out examples, you're right... nothing pedantic about your question...

i don't think justice exists
really

except in the imagination
and how one perceives a certain situation

one could say " that was justice"

and the other person could shake their head to the same situation

so when i say "justice"

i'm talking about justice that is personal
that i alone feel to be justice

what other people think
dunno
i'm not capable of knowing what other people think

if someone shoots a pit bull dog for mauling and shredding their leg to pieces
the victim could say "that was justice"

the mother of the pit bull might think otherwise

still

justice is worth going after
as confusing as it is

because without it
all of humanity becomes devalued

to darwinian principles "survival of the fittest"

this could be true for the animal ( inluding human animals) that are the most "fit" either physically or resource wise

but that does not necessarily mean spirit wise

and karma can bite back

that is why justice is important

because for every action there is an opposite but equal reaction

and thus every injustice will have its match

some way some how

perhaps even in another life time

but some way

some how

that is just

P
H
Y
S
I
C
S


as i see it

Hmm... and if you think justice is dropping an atom bomb on Hiroshima ? It would still be opperating upon that princepal, only the stakes are a little higher and the judgement a little less commonly held. What makes justice right ?

Most people feel justified in their actions. People see and believe evidence in their world to validate what they see as moral, regardless of the fact that the guy next to them sees the same things another way. Are you saying that the part that matters is what it means to you ?

Maybe this is correct, but even so it is a fickle thing. What aspect of your choices give them merrit ? I'm not implying that I have any answers here .. but I do think it is worth considering.

I also like justice.

Putting up with injustice for the sake of convenience and mock-harmony are for cowards.

lightform

<<Are you saying that the part that matters is what it means to you ?>>

partly
yes

the other part, time will tell

I think that justice is, metaphorically, a living and breathing entity. It's the burn that a child feels when touching a hot stove. It's the failing corporation, which hired only whites, without considering ability, because the other corporations did hire blacks who were more capable of their job. It's the guilt driving the murderer insane. It's the lynch mob going after the dictator for enacting the worst travesties known to man. Justice is the being that regulates life. As La Veronique put it, "For every action, there is an equal and opposing reaction." The reaction will either be reward or punishment, and that is Justice. In certain cases, as humans, we must take it upon our selves to bring justice to what caused injustice, and I think that this is where everything gets sticky. Of course the Pit Bull had to be shot, or else the man could have been killed. But where does the mother get her justice? This is difficult, and I think that justice can seem unclear at times, especially under human conditions. But what is clear, is that Justice is existent. It is a law of nature: "for every action, there is an equal and opposing reaction." I have to say that Justice is very dogmatic. According to justice, there is a clear black and white. And personally I agree. I think that we must learn from the ways of Justice, for she is a part of nature, a part of truth, an aspect of who we are.

yes

Hmm... that is poetic Cyclo
The way I see it, justice is a man made concept and is held purely in the mind of the individual. I definately believe that there is a balance or consequence to ones actions, but also that it has nothing to do with a "natural or righteous order" of things.

My view is that ones choices have an instant "karma" or conequence by their inherent nature, this being that when one uses negative emotion as a motive, it provides an experience of reality in line with this feeling until it is changed. So if one goes about doing harm, ones experience of life reflects a reality where pain and suffering are a part.

This is a clumsy and limited description for a complex and subtle phenomenon, but essentially it explains my perspective. I do not feel that it is anyones "right" to exact punishment upon another. As the saying goes, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone".

Lightform:


<<This is a clumsy and limited description for a complex and subtle phenomenon, but essentially it explains my perspective. I do not feel that it is anyones "right" to exact punishment upon another. As the saying goes, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone".>>

this is easier said than done, however and it is a lot more difficult to achieve
especially when it comes to the aspect of self defense

if someone is deliberately trying to physically attack, injure or maim someone else
that person has the choice of

1) being passive and risking the high chance of severe injury or even death
2) being active and "exacting instant justice" by defending oneself which may result in possibly causing injury to the other person


others may say that it is EASY to defend oneself and simultaneously not hurt others

i disagree completely

the reality is not that easy

and it isn't always prettily choreographed like you see in the movies

sometimes defending oneself may look like "exacting punishment"

but really, it is just a form of self respect

like you said

same action

can always be taken two different ways

in nature, there is very little "justice"
as we know it

all the bigger animals are constantly preying on the smaller animals as part of the food chain behaviour

we make call it "injust" or even "abominable" behaviour

the animals however have four different names to describe their behaviour and that is

1) breakfast
2) lunch
3) dinner
4) snack

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lightform:
>
>
> <>
>
> this is easier said than done, however and it is
> a lot more difficult to achieve
> especially when it comes to the aspect of self
> defense
>
> if someone is deliberately trying to physically
> attack, injure or maim someone else
> that person has the choice of
>
> 1) being passive and risking the high chance of
> severe injury or even death
> 2) being active and "exacting instant justice" by
> defending oneself which may result in possibly
> causing injury to the other person
>
>
> others may say that it is EASY to defend oneself
> and simultaneously not hurt others
>
> i disagree completely
>
> the reality is not that easy
>
> and it isn't always prettily choreographed like
> you see in the movies
>
> sometimes defending oneself may look like
> "exacting punishment"
>
> but really, it is just a form of self respect
>
> like you said
>
> same action
>
> can always be taken two different ways

I am still working to understand this myself LaV. As I see it currently, there is NO moral to ones actions. Only a phenomenon that what ever emotions are used as motives for ones actions, inherently convey a corresponding reality forming perspective. Therefor.. the choice is what do we wish to experience ?

It is subtle, it is hidden, and it is hard to accept when faced with the strength of our emotions.. but I believe it exists.

That is an odd comment about animals LaV.. are you suggesting that you think that that is all they do ? Or that they do not associate feelings with their motives/actions ? Or were you just using that description to express a deeper idea ?

I think that La Veronique was trying to make the point that justice and injustice doesn't come into the minds of the animals; all they see is their own necessary survival. While killing one animal to feed the hungry lion, one could interpret this act as both justice or injustice according to which animal one is sympathetic with.
My philosophy is that there is a sense of justice and injustice in this, though it might seem cruel or apathetic. Survival of the fittest is a form of justice. The strongest animal will survive over the weaker one. The lion catches the gazelle because the lion had more cunning, or speed, or strength etc. etc. etc. The justice is the fact that the lion was more able to survive than the gazelle at that particular moment, so the lion did survive. That is justice. Reward for the use of one's ability, and punishment for one's inability. This is the natural law of justice. And this same thing happens with the man who kills the pit bull that is attacking him. The stronger will be given a longer life and more chances to be happy throughout that life. This is why we, as humans, tend to strive for bettering ourselves, we subconsciously realize this phenomenon. We now have to understand it and accept it.
And again I do want to say that justice can be difficult to interpret at times, such as the French Revolution, in which the peasants murdered anyone and everyone associated with the bourgeois. They definately had the right to get angry and have a revolution, but a bloodbath with children as the victims as well... there is no justification in that. I think that the problem, in situations such as this, lies in people who do not fully comprehend the nature of justice. They believe that once justice is on their side, it never leaves that side. Justice does not have unconditional love. Justice is just. Justice is blind. And this is why I love her even more so.
Jgunn-
I do like your interpretation of justice, but I believe that there is a particular morality or code of ethics. By the standards of your belief, correct me if I'm wrong, a man could horrendously murder and rape his wife and children, from love, and it's all good. Or an even better example... A benevolent dictator, would be something that this country needs. lol I strongly disagree with this concept of right and wrong simply because this concept produces the result that there is no right and wrong, only how people feel about their own actions. While this might be idealistic, I do not believe that this is accurate to reality.

Cyclo
At first you say that justice exists as a natural order of strength, then go on to say that killing children is unjust. I'm not sure what you mean here... killing children is using superiour strength to have your way, is it not ? In fact, everything would always be just if you accept that those with greater strength are just within their means to use it ?

In regards to the scenarios you describe at the end, only you can answer those questions for yourself. But if you want my opinion on them then the first thing I would have to say, is that I have found that my truth only results from releasing my belief's about things, for while I believe something, I cannot see beyond it. So insted of asking a question about a tangled situation to find a solution for it, I would ask myself why it is that I believe it to be what it is in the first place.

The association of love with manifestations of destruction is unreal to me. My experience is that the purest analogy to use for love would be the FEELING of appreciation. There is no consequence of appreciation which will harm something, unless there is the addition of other emotions which are NOT love, i.e concepts of need or fear etc. I could go on for hours about the nuances of this, but I don't know if anyone would be interested so I'll leave it at that.

Life without justice does seem more hollow, devoid of substance.

It might be argued that justice is to a large extent an emotional need, an ego driven response.

A search for order, a reassurance.

A quixotic duel with natures capricious whim.

On the contrary it might be argued that justice is the noblest of pursuits.

An almost physical law unto itself.

Embedded within every breathing creature, ingrained in every living mind.

I think it all depends on the interpretation for the meaning of the word Jose.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2008 03:55AM by Lightform.

Jose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Life without justice does seem more hollow, devoid
> of substance.
>
> It might be argued that justice is to a large
> extent an emotional need, an ego driven response.
>
> A search for order, a reassurance.
>
> A quixotic duel with natures capricious whim.


i tend to agree with this

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

lightform:

<<That is an odd comment about animals LaV.. are you suggesting that you think that that is all they do ? Or that they do not associate feelings with their motives/actions ? Or were you just using that description to express a deeper idea ?>>

I wasn't "SUGGESTING". I was just stating as a matter of fact that what animals do is

1. breakfast
2. lunch
3. dinner
4. snack

pure and simple

that and uhh... passing on their genes

and i highly doubt that they consult their moral manual prior to each meal
if that was the case, NOBODY would be fed

and they would risk extinction

LaV
My observations of the eating behaviour of animals is in line with that as well, being that I don't think they place emotional or "moral" consideration into their food choices. However, I don't feel that this lends support to a claim that voilence can be a means of self betterment, rather than that it shows ( for want of a way to express this ) that animals live in a less conscious way to humans.

It may be a means for a higher likely hood of survival (althought I have theories that question this ), but I don't think it can be a means for better self knowing or finding ones devine state... which I believe is what we are ultimately after. I also know that animals do alot of other things which are emotionally motivated such as playing etc, which is why I was asking what you ment.

Jgunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jose Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Life without justice does seem more hollow,
> devoid
> > of substance.
> >
> > It might be argued that justice is to a large
> > extent an emotional need, an ego driven
> response.
> >
> > A search for order, a reassurance.
> >
> > A quixotic duel with natures capricious whim.
>
>
> i tend to agree with this


I do too.. except that I don't think that reality is random, as that phrase implies. I would say it is more like a yearning for a sense of order or equanimity in the face of percieved hostility, which is a subtle but major difference.

To tell y'all the truth...
I don't know anymore...
I don't know what I believe anymore...
I don't know anymore...
The world is starting to not make since again...
I don't know anymore...
Like in the dark ages of my past...
I don't know anymore...
I only hope that the sunshine...
I don't know anymore...
Will come back to me soon...
I miss you... Sunshine...
I remember coming onto this board, coming to my aunts house, thinking that I knew everything. I had just got a real solid philosophy, tied neatly with a big beautiful bow. Ayn Rand had been my hero. I had know exactly what I believed, and what I was, and what I wanted to be. But now knew identities are coming to the light of my mind, and I am truly scared. What are these identities? What do they mean? Why do they seem to be so contradictory to my philosophy? Am I just missing a piece of the puzzle? I don't know anymore...
Lightform-
If you don't mind... could you go over those nuances? I see that I need to do more searching and studying. There is something important that I am not seeing, and I feel that it is right in front of me.
lol I know this sounds quite ridiculous. I just don't know what to do right now. lol
I'm not too worried though... I know that the sun always rises again, and spring always comes after winter, and life from death. I will be okay again. I just need to go digging for a while. lol How's this for some justice? lol

>To tell y'all the truth...
I don't know anymore...
...new identities are coming to the light of my mind, and I am truly scared<

:-) Hi Cy,
Wow, I'm blown away, because I can SO relate to what you're saying!! I think I know how you are feeling-- I am often there myself, wanting desperately to have a rock-solid ground of immutable truth to rest on, and finding instead that the closer I examine things, the more 'nothing is real' and everything is ephemeral. It can be a frightening, confusing experience. I know it doesn't feel like it right now, and you are finding it unpleasant-- it can be a scary experience, for sure-- but you are experriencing 'Zen mind.' 'Don't know' is the hallmark of, and the gateway to the path of enlightenment. I think the trick is to GO WITH IT! Go into that seeming void-- even if at first it feels like you're falling, falling into nothingness! Let go of all your beliefs and just enter deeply into that inner void in silence, and eventually something happens: we find ourselves at the center of our Being where the True Identity resides, and we are perfectly and forever safe.

Thank you for being so honest and thoughtful and open consistently on this board (yes even when we had that disagreement awhile back I greatly admired your forthrightness); you have just expressed SO beautifully what I think all of us, on one level or another, are feeling, and in responding to you I have just given myself the key to some startlingly similar inner conflicts that were troubling me. Imagine that! :-)

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

cyclopsale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Lightform-
> If you don't mind... could you go over those
> nuances? I see that I need to do more searching
> and studying. There is something important that I
> am not seeing, and I feel that it is right in
> front of me.
> lol I know this sounds quite ridiculous. I just
> don't know what to do right now. lol
> I'm not too worried though... I know that the sun
> always rises again, and spring always comes after
> winter, and life from death. I will be okay again.
> I just need to go digging for a while. lol How's
> this for some justice? lol


Cyclo
Believe me.. I don't find that ridiculous, I am extremely familiar with feeling unsure about things . I think it is a natural emotion which goes with seeing/accepting that something that you believe could be different to how you currently experience it, and that it is a path we will forever walk. I also think that the wise, learn to find comfort or consolation within the unknown.

I saw a documentary just recently which illuminated the fact that there are two fundemental characteristics of the universe. These are that it is both emergent and symbiotic in nature, being a phenomenon which only exists as an interdependent whole, and also one that is forever changing. So the idea that we may know something as a fact, is based on a the logic that it may not change and is essentially flawed.

The nuances that I mentioned have to do with the subtleties of our motivations and the inherent consequences of them. The way I understand it, we are all motivated by the same force.. i.e love, but our "matrix" or montage of beliefs have us believe that the source of it is vested within physical things outside of ourselves. This creates paterns of behaviour and outcomes that are as varied as the beliefs that are held, even when it is the same thing that we are all after.

IMO.. when someones actions have a harmfull effect, it is due to various considerations that the person has about the event both consciously and unconsciously, which make the focus of the person less than loving of it. I believe that we are totally responcible for our own experience, thus consigning moralistic value to an item of personal perspective rather than universal truth. How can something be right or wrong when we are free to choose how we feel about it ? Who decides ?

If you break it down to being the opinion of the majority, this is always held with the interest of "greatest good" at heart. When you look at what that good means, it is an evaluation made with consideration to the values of the people who make it, to provide the best circumstances for survival, or comfort, or efficiency etc. This is the same on a personal level.. but once again all of these boil down to our core motive which is for love.

One could argue that there are other motives such as fear and greed and pain etc, but I feel that these are just aspects of our "matrixes" which I mentioned before, manifesting themselves in differing experiences of lack of love. I don't write this as truth, I write it as the way I see it. So take what you will and chuck what doesn't work for you. But I am always happy to talk about it.

Light.

Kwan
I just finished my post to see that someone had already left another in the time that I took to write it. I think that we have both suggested the same thing in regards to the feeling of being lost which makes me smile. I think it is great that we share this perspective

conscious is a bitch of a one way stream that way

I think at one point way back humans had more of a choice as to whether they wanted to stay in the state of nature or to move to a state of rules and judgments.

but that is long gone

thus we are in that relative web of justice and injustice, that to seems to us (as potential victims of unfairness) to require some standard in order for the fabric to stay entact.

I like how lightform wrote, to me said simply is that we are not bound to this fabric on every level, it is simply the tool we have chosen to use.

I think the only approach to overcomming injustice is to understand its underlying causes. as repression, discrimination etc.. stem from political, social, and economic injustices. By strengthening the social fabric - which most people here I think agree is by focusing on oneself - the world becomes more civil and there is less injustice so less need for justice. then we can drop all the artificial laws

whenever I see someone protest injustices (of which there is uncountable) in the world or on the boards, I think to myself, is this person supporting us with a positive example on what one can do to overcome injustice, or are they just spreading fear on the 1001 things other individuals and organizations are doing every second to harm you?

i think i'll forget about justice

i am just

not the word " just " as in "just"ice

but just

just something

i just AM

right now, that is justice enough
to just acknowledge that i just AM

and that is enough

for now

my dream is that it will be enough
for always

and that if just BEING was enough
for everyone

and everyone one just IS
or WAS

then somehow justice would be irrelevant

and we would be like the herd of buffaloes or the gaggle of geese

they pay no heed to notions of justice

they just

ARE

okay... silly

but lightform's post had an effect on me

since he always has the audacity to patiently question everything


i too agree with lightform that all actions are at the core, propelled from love

and that anything outside of it is simply being inveigled in the matrix of lack of love

which is probably fear or ignorance

CYCLOPSALE:

its good that u don't know
i don't know either

i just muddle my way in the dark

and when i choose to accept the unknown

then i am dancing in the dark

ANAKEN

i'm glad you are back
its about time

KWAN

the unknown is my home
not cuz i am so comfortable and thus "zen like" in my unknowing
but simply
cuz i just

DON'T

know



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2008 08:53AM by la_veronique.