The other day I was riding my bike and I noticed a man attempting to hand a magazine to a woman on the street and she refused to accept his offering. He seemed a bit unnerved by her refusal. I was approaching and when he held out the magazine, I said I'd take one. He then informed me of the next service at the nearest Kingdom Hall and I thanked him and left. I wasn't humoring him. I respect all people who remember God (and this doesn't mean I don't respect atheists!). Whether or not I agree with their sect is of no conern to me. I used to debate JWs, but I allow them their beliefs now. Aren't I wonderful?

At the risk of this whole thread being deleted for being about religion...

I appreciate that others have differing religious beliefs and support that as long as they don't advocate harming anyone and they keep their religious activities to themselves unless asked.

So, no, I don't talk to people who approach me about religion or take religious pamphlets offered to me.


My favorite raw vegan

Ha ha, Trive, yeah I guess this could get deleted, but I see a Buddhist thread here so...I understand the proseletyzing part (sp.?) and why that would bother others but I think it's usually upsetting if you had a childhood of religious indoctrination that was severe. I am actually impressed by anyone so devoted to the idea of God that they go out and endure massive rejection in order to "save souls" (put in quotes to indicate that I don't believe we are in danger of being destroyed).

Yup, nuthin' quite like a couple o' strange fellas in suits showing up on your doorstep mid-day when you're home alone with the baby and all the neighbours are off at their day jobs. Or better yet during the dinner hour. Not invasive in the slightest that. I totally respect those people. Same with telemarketters. Sure, why not?

A friend of mine in school was a Witness; we'd chat amiably about our respective beliefs. I have more recently treated with a pair of lovely Mormon boys. They are so devout, and so in earnest, I give them great credit for walking out into unknown and inhospitable neighborhoods to spread their beliefs. In my case, they discover very quickly that I am armed with a broad and messy religious education and the convo turns to more pedestrian things right quick--unseasonbaly cold, isn't it, ma'am?--and ends pleasant but uncontroversial.

LOL- I can always spot them a mile away: the men wear suits and ties and the wimern folk wear long skirts that graze the ankle. It's funny--my mom never seemed particularly religious but she used to invite in these two JW women and they became quite friendly! I remember enjoying their visits and one time they gave me a little hardcover book that had stories for children with morals. I loved it! I actually read the WatchTower when they hand it to me. They have some good articles in there (sounds like Playboy, LOL). My father is 89 and he has JWs come every week and read the Bible to him. I think he just likes the company; he's never been devout although he attends church every Sunday. They tell him about the end of the world and stuff like that!

Answering the door with a snarling black chow is most effective. lol Actually makes some of them run like little tea-partyers.


Just joking folks...no religious or political offense ment...

My dog is a gentle giant, she just looks and sounds really scary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2010 11:26PM by swimmer.

Hey, you snuck a twofer in there, eh, swimmer?


My favorite raw vegan

Not so much in recent years but I've had many discussions with lots of JW's, actually becoming friends with a few. Two couples that tried to buy my house (for a real right price) actually dropped by years latter, as if to say maybe they should not have tried to get me to sell them my house. We had a falling out over my settling down with a local church, "apostate" of course. One said I was on "the wide road", which leads to you know where. Maybe, maybe not, but I didn't like hearing it. Very nice people for the most part.

lol Trive, all in fun!

All the time! But about 5 years ago my usual JW visitor lady showed up with another one, a trainee. I was in a bad mood that day and at a certain point in the conversation I mentioned - it was appropriate in the context of our discussion - that I felt sorry for animals and didn't want to eat their flesh. Well, the trainee went apeshit and said loudly and hostilely, "We're SUPPOSED to eat meat! It says so in the bible!"

Unfortunately, I snapped. I told them to both get out r.f.n., following them down the steps as they hastily exited. It was more like "chasing", than following, to tell the truth. They seemed really taken aback. I can't believe I was so awful.

So, 3 years pass. They now send other people to drop off their literature and have chats with me on the doorstep. No more tea & cookies, just discussions.

Never - I think they are religeous nutters pedalling rubbish

personally I mostly agree with trive, only place in which I differ, is that as long as one doesnt try to FORCE their religious beliefs on me, I find it quite wonderful that they approach me with their beliefs/literature, Ive talked about my reasoning when it comes to this many times and have yet to find anyone that feels the same, but I'll give it another shot...

The reason why I like it when others approach me (in a respectful way of course) with their beliefs, is because its something they believe to be good and right with all of their hearts, and they want to share this wonderful love and belief they have found, and in some cases they even believe they are trying to "save" me, considering the stigma surrounding people that go around doing this, its not exactly an easy thing for them to do, to approach a stranger and try to "save" them, especially when most of the time they find themselves the targets of ridicule and often abuse for doing so, I am glad to know that they care enough to try, even if in the end I don't share their beliefs...

Id like to specify before ending my post, that I am completely against anyone of any belief system that tries to force their beliefs on others, and I don't believe that approaching someone and talking with them or giving them literature is "forcing" but those who try to scream at you till you believe...well they are kinda nuts...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I don't mind them coming to the door and still might invite them in to chat. They're well read in the Bible and so that's a common interest with me. Some are willing to think outside the box so when they say "the end is near" and I say the world already ended 2,000 years ago with the fall of Jerusalem, they know what I'm talking about even if they don't quite agree. It's stimulating and I've started to accept and scan through their pamphlets again, which haven't changed much. One book they gave me was excellent on evolution vs. creation, describing the theory how it took a billion years for the first complex cell to evolve, an idea which always stuck with me, the cell is so complex it would take a billion years and it does seem possible to me over that time frame. The creation theory is cool too, I truely love those 6,000 year old earth guys saying dynosaur bones are God's sense of humor. JWs embrace science though, including evolution as I recall. With them when you're dead you're dead, though they believe Jehovah will step in soon and create a new earth and give them new bodies.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2010 12:47PM by loeve.

All major religions accept evolution these days as I understand it. Doesn't stop the nutters from believing the 'dinosaur walking the earth with man' theory though. I actually KNOW more than a few of that sort. Baptist mostly and a lot of them homeschool their kids so they can teach them that rubbish. That's a shame, verging on child abuse IMO. Such a load of stupid nonsense. Sorry if that sounds intolerant but religious zealots are a freaky bunch.
My good friend the ER doc grew up JW and while his family 'seem' like nice folk from the outside, his stories of growing up like that are fairly horrible. I can't imagine subjecting children to the crap little ones of uber religious families have to take. Frankly, I wouldn't cry if religion was wiped entirely from the face of the earth. I am outwardly respectful of other's choice to believe and practice whatever they choose but I personally, if you're asking, think religion is evil.

Personally, I think ANY extremism at least borders on evil, religious or otherwise, as its usually used as an excuse for evil/abusive behavior/acts...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Regarding evolution, I don't get why it's an incompatible theory with Creationism. Isn't adaptation a form of evolution? And for those who scoff at anything other than evolution, where did all that matter come from in the first place? *crickets*

What I think is unfortunate is to lump in spirituality with organized religion. I will probably never find a sect or religion that I agree with 100% so I do my own thing and go to services and temples that resonate with me to the highest degree. As for the evil in organized religion and JWs: I feel for them because many probably grew up in it, as well as joined because of some trauma or other crisis. I think that cults (religions that are very insular and shun those who question or leave) attract vulnerable people because they are looking for the most structure and certainty. I still can't believe that Prince is a JW now! Wow, talk about going from one extreme to the other!

@Horsea: LOL! OMG--that must have been quite a scene! I guess Genesis 1:29 was lost on them? Too bad you didn't just quote Scripture and see how they would have responded to the quote: "The Lord has given you every herb-bearing seed; for you, this shall be meat." From what I understand, "meat" meant main food.

I do agree, its my personal belief, that all theories of creation, when broken down to the base of their belief, are all just as valid, as they all require you to believe that something was created from nothing, and we as of yet don't have even close to the understanding of how our universe works that we would need to know for sure whether or not any of them are correct...we could all be wrong, or we could even possibly all be right.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

banana who,

Quote

Regarding evolution, I don't get why it's an incompatible theory with Creationism. Isn't adaptation a form of evolution?

Yes, and that's why Darwin's wife and the Mother Church were eventually cool with his hypotheses. The problem is the Creationists' durn nonsensical timeline. And insupportable belief that dinosaur bones lacking human bone companionship is a "conspiracy" of some sort.

As for me, I'm with the Big Bang Theorists as to The Beginning. There is a mistaken belief, due to erroneous and heretical mistranslation, about the passage in The Evangel according to John that reads, "In the beginning, there was The Word." How it actually reads is, "In the beginning, there was The Process." That, to me, ballasts the Big Bang Theory.

Apparently, the Geocentrists are making a comeback, which worries me more than the dedicated proselytizers making the rounds this fall . . .

i talk with them if i have time, none-the-less im always pleasant/polite to them.

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

My last encunter with a j.w. was asking a parrant if her daughter and my daughter could play. I was left to feel we were not good enough for them and they were very careful who there daughter played with. I felt sour grapes indeed. Such a controled church the people are not allowed to look outside the box. I think that is a dangerous way to think. It leads to foul play and unfair circumstances for the people.
As for anyone who knocks on my door I will be polite and even offer a cold drink to. I live so far out in the country it is rare. I also will be polite concerning a persons beliefs. I have my own beliefs that have taken a long time to come for me and I am still searching for the truth and not quite sure if I have found it but fear based beliefs are upsetting to me.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @Horsea: LOL! OMG--that must have been quite a
> scene! I guess Genesis 1:29 was lost on them? Too
> bad you didn't just quote Scripture and see how
> they would have responded to the quote: "The Lord
> has given you every herb-bearing seed; for you,
> this shall be meat." From what I understand,
> "meat" meant main food.

It was a "scene" I'd rather forget.

But, interesting that you brought this up: I have indeed discussed with the JWs the subject that you brought up, prior to that set-to. They agreed that, at first, God gave humans a plant diet to live on and thrive on. Then after the flood, life was hard and God apparently, according to the bible, gave mankind permission to eat meat because it became necessary. I do believe they are correct, if you interpret the bible literally. I did not argue with them about that. I mean, if I tell them about the plant diet coming from the bible, they have every right to tell me what came after the plant diet was no longer sufficient.

I had a related conversation recently about Cain and Abel, the two sons of Adam and Eve. My point was that Cain's grain offering was a good idea and that God's rejection of that in favor of Abel's fat offering had to have been frustrating to Cain who clearly saw value in plant food, and that wasn't it ironic that the modern offerings are of "grape juice" and unleavened bread. Cain might be saying I told you so way back when (and by the way I reacted very badly at the time). But, what was up with the fat offering of Abel? I mean what happened to the rest of the animal? It seems to me the "cattle" spoken of in the creation narrative were available for use as food even in the garden, at least the way I read between the lines. Is this heresy?

My friend spoke of the crimson thread going back to the use of "leather garments" in Genesis 3. I'm not very familiar with this but it seems to me the obligatory "blood offering" is over and done with 2,000 years ago.

I think JWs would be all over a topic like this, in a good way.

..Genesis 4 "Abel became a keeper of flocks, and Cain a tiller of the soil. In the course of time Cain brought an offering to the Lord from the fruit of the soil, while Abel, for his part, brought one of the best firstlings of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but Cain and his offering he did not. Cain greatly resented this and was crestfallen. So the Lord said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master."

The last time I had contact with a highly religious person, it was listening to some homemade CD lectures he made about his religion. I was just curious. It turned out very disappointing.

He runs a deli/ministry, and doesn't do either very well as far as I can tell. He also believes that 'satan' is trying to destroy his business because he runs a ministry from it also! HA! not because his store is dirty, and the products are so bad! Its just a really gross place, I won't describe what he makes and sells, its all non-vegan and looks like its been there for days if not weeks. He also believes that satan started making up lies about meat, cholestrol, and fad diets, to destroy his business.

anything can be a religion
religion is a belief
even the adamant belief that all religions are bad
that too is a religion in and of itself

even the belief " i don't know"
that too is a religion

i feel the essence underlying so called religions
have great beauty

life is confusing without an organized religion
it is confusing WITH an organized religion

either way, life can be confusing

some people choose an organized religion
because it organizes their minds/spirits and gives them a path

some people choose to abstain from organized religion
because it gives them a sense to explore as they see fit
whose to say which path is better
it depends on the individual

yes, i understand that it is distasteful for others to foist their beliefs on others but consider this:

capitalism is a very extreme religion
and yet, this is the dominant religion of many countries
there are rules, there are codes, there are social etiquette , there is education and indoctrination .... all revolving around the Almighty capitalist Dollar

this is a tremendous religion that many have become seamlessly indoctrinated into and few question

many would not even THINK of questioning the legality of taxes etc.
so blindly indoctrinated they have been
proselytized from birth

i don't see too many people walking around incensed by this economic religion that is continually coerced and has been made into LAW in many countries

the educational system is also a religion
their job is to indoctrinate
how many parents or even students that are in college question the appropriateness, soundness, relevance of what is being taught?

very few

people with brilliant souls and ZERO interest in certain subjects must still endure the mindless demeaning rigors of memorizing or calculating or studying subjects that serve only to humiliate their intelligence or bore them

school is more of a religion than most churches will ever be

if you go to "mass" ( equivalent is class in schools)on a daily regular basis while growing up and memorize and/or study the particular parish ( school)'s "catechism" ( class subject) and religiously "apply oneself", you graduate

some people then decide they loved this religion SO much, they go to college which is an advanced form of religion in which more indoctrination takes place etc. then they get a degree which means that they have successfully gone through the motions of attending church (class), listened to their pastor ( instructor), studied their bibles ( textbooks) and manifested this on exams ( proved that they learned their "catechism" (subject lesson)

then they go to an even BIGGER "church" which is the capitalist cathedral
wherein there is a NEW pastor ( the boss man or boss lady) whose 10 commandments( whatever they are) you MUST follow in order to not get kicked out of the congregation . you must also learn the social etiquette of the other parishioners ( colleagues) and apply them well. the indoctrination is so deep and strong but one never complains that they are being proselytized daily. in fact, the one who applies the cathedral's catechism most zealously gets a raise or is promoted. she or he may even become the new boss to perpetuate the endless catechism all over again. those who go against the catechism gets kicked out of the church ( laid off)


i honestly can't think of anything that is NOT a religion

i don't know how to "handle" those who try to tell me their beliefs

my understanding is that if one does not like whatever is being espoused, it is called proselytization

if one is alright with what is being spoken of, it is simply an intelligent

"discussion"

whatever

advertisement is a form of religion
so is television
they covertly expound their views all the time
and people call that "entertainment"

welcome to the world
Amen

try to figure out which are solely your beliefs
and which ones have been pounded into you by your surroundings
betcha can
betcha can't

good luck

my "belief" is that you are either thinking independently
or being thought by others ( like when you watch tv, listen to what others are saying then actually BELIeVE them etc.)

your parents ( caretakers) create a religious environment based on their beliefs ( whatever they are)

i think the jehovah's witness or whomever else that knocks on your door is kind of mild compared to the other forms of "knocking on your door"

at least you can politely say " no thanks, i'm just not interested"
to people who try to share their church beliefs with you

try courteously saying " no thanks, mom/dad, i just don't think i will listen to your catechism today. i am just going to walk out of your church (home)"

try telling your elementary, jr. high, high school " uhhmm.. thanks but no thanks. i don't think school is right for me. i'm glad its okay for other students. hey... whatever floats their boat but its not my cup of tea"

try telling your government " yeah... i believe that certain people think taxes are right and i'm happy for them. i'm glad it works for them...but its just not my thing. thanks anyways"

try telling your boss " hey... umm... i'm glad you feel that way about what needs to get done and how it should get done but that's just not how i roll. uh... later dude "


organized religions don't bother me in the least

they never have
and they never will

and i always have a choice whether to join or not

it is the more covert, unknown, unseen, unrecognized UN organized "religions" that have FAR more power

Amen

No. I have the same attitude towards evangelical solicitation as I do towards panhandling. Don't feed the bears.

I'm a very strong believer in live and let live. And to this day, I have never understood why this simple philosophy couldn't be adopted. btw, Jodi, I agree with being pleasant to a point. After the second no thank you, I just walk away or close the door depending on where I am.

Paul

i agree paul , i have had to get firm on occaision but the majority of time a simple no thanks and it seems to work

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist