But it could be said that rawfooders are also trying to convert others to their way of thinking and eating.

For mormans I tell them to watch the movie "The God Makers", they run away fast and I never hear from them again.

For JW's I tell them I can show them through thier own earliest liturature alone they are false prophets.

Horsea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But it could be said that rawfooders are also
> trying to convert others to their way of thinking
> and eating.

Oh, for SURE! Those raw foodies or vegans or whatever who are out there speaking it to every and anyone. I don't talk about diet any more than I talk about religion, to me they are both private. But I will get out and canvas for political action so there you go. I think that's really important, so many people don't even bother to go and spoil their ballot to show they're paying attention and that's a darn shame!

The Essene Gospel of Jesus Christ, a seminal work about living foods offers this insight:

Quote

And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"

[www.essene.com]

That's awesome Brome.
I was thinking about this today, about how some equate whatever it is they have read in the bible that supports eating flesh with what that means in the modern day world. Even if it did say right in the bible translated word for word from the earliest scriptures that people should eat other creatures, I'm fairly certain that wouldn't include those creatures living a life of inexpressible horror followed by a gruesome and torturous death. How anyone, even the basest of human being, can think that those practices are justifiable is beyond me.

Here's Chief Seattle's speech that captures the spirit of a people that considered nature their church and source of truth:

[www.kyphilom.com]

The bible recommends fasting in the wilderness but the Christians do not do it while the Indians did. The bible calls the Morning Star (Venus just before sunrise) the light of Jesus; but the Christians never go out to see it, while the Indians did. In Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions an Indian boy goes on a 4 day fast alone in the wilderness wrapped in his Morning Star blanket (to better watch Venus in the morning) and to seek guidance from Great Spirit. IMHO the Indians were the better Christians, without ever having heard of Christ.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2010 07:52AM by brome.

Some have life innately, born out of wherever they are on the planet, who they are inside, the life they live and in whatever era they were from. Paul wrote of this in the New Testament.

If you talk with JWs you'll find they don't identify themselves as Christians but Jehovah's Witnesses, and don't go to Church but to a Kingdom Hall. One thing that separates them from the Church is that they don't believe Jesus is God, but a prophet, and that the Holy Spirit is like a conduit to Jehovah, not one of the three persons of God (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). They have communion once a year at passover which commemorates the death of Jesus on the cross, which I found odd like they occasionally remember His death while I'm used to regularly remembering His life. Their communion is with wine and bread though like the church. They read and study the Bible methodically a few pages a week so every seven years they will have gone through the entire book and then do it all over again, but that means they spend a lot of time in the Old Testament (a larger body of books) where truth is revealed "as if through a veil", that is partially obscured so one never knows what is from God and what is from, say Moses or Isaiah.

The Hare in the moon is another ancient Indian symbol. To see that image in the moon and then translate it into veneration of earthly hares is an old and noble idea spanning continents really, though maybe not a JW thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2010 11:12AM by loeve.

I never could get the Jesus Is God thing myself.

Jesus is G_d in the same way that I am G_d. Or you are...

It took me years to reclaim the language of religion for my own so that it held a meaning for me that was personal. G_d to me means spirit, the divine spark that animates all living things, the mystery that will never be reveal (and isn't meant to be), the trust and faith that the Universe is unfolding as it should, all those things. In order to facilitate a connection to spirit within my children I have been telling them that this is G_d; nature, wind, trees, water, stars, rocks, themselves. jesus was no more or less G_d than anything else.

Errr, the Hare is part of many faiths isn't it, sorry to use the word "thing". I'm not aware of any reference to hares for JWs except maybe for once being a prohibited food under Mosaic laws.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2010 03:07PM by loeve.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...One thing that separates them from the
> Church is that they don't believe Jesus is God,
> but a prophet...

..ah well, more than a prophet actually, but not equivalent to God. Now if I got this straight JWs believe Jehovah created Jesus his only begotten Son, and then Jesus created the earth. Ha, way more than a prophet.

I like this quote I came across today

"It is folly for a man to pray to the gods for that which he has the power to obtain by himself." - Epicurus

Epicurus was a dirty pagan.

Weird synchronicity: I walked into a cafe this morning and when I looked for the newspaper, there was a Watchtower in the bin! Never happened before and this is an uber liberal area. Not that JWs don't come around here, but the timing was really strange. And guess what the cover read? "Are These The End Times? And I skimmed that article, as well as one where I read the phrase: "Women, are you treating your husband as the head of the household?" or something to that effect. But despite all that, I still have read stuff that I find useful and very readable. I subscribe to the theory that everything has some intrinsic value...

Banana who,
I suppose thats a good 'think' on your behalf. I tend to have a very poor opinion about religion because I was abused by it when I was younger. I usually just try and keep my mouth shut as an adult when someone starts to talk about it, or says something about how good it is. Until they experience what I did, they would never understand, and find me abusive or something. Although last night I started talking to someone about the wedding I went to last night. I found certain aspects of it very annoying.

Like, the name list excluding the mothers first name, saying Mr&MRS XXXXX. (giving his full name, and not hers. It was also very christian, I found it difficult even hearing the name of the nazarene so many times. I understand it was at least cultural christians, so what can you do but support them, right? I just crossed my arms over my heart whenever they prayed.

Mislu,

I have found it helps to concentrate on the fact that The Nazarene and the message of benevolence he preached are directly opposed to those that claim to be adherents but do not in behavior nor in morality reflect The Nazarene's example and wishes. Heretics abound, but the original message is sound.

"And guess what the cover read? "Are These The End Times?"

And the answer is always "yes" with JWs? I actually agreed to sell my house to a JW couple for a very good price but they came back and said they changed their minds because the end was near. Another JW couple stepped in with an offer but I would not sell at that price to just anyone. By the way, the second couple decided against having children because the end was near. There's always that sense of urgency (at least with the young JWs) that you'd better join because when the end comes you want to be on the right side.

Jesus taught that death comes like a thief in the night and that no stone will be left on another when the end comes, but that happened already with Jeruselem in 79 AD. It was utterly destroyed by the Romans till they got sick of killing. The "curse" ended then.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Weird synchronicity: I walked into a cafe this
> morning and when I looked for the newspaper, there
> was a Watchtower in the bin! Never happened before
> and this is an uber liberal area. Not that JWs
> don't come around here, but the timing was really
> strange. And guess what the cover read? "Are These
> The End Times? And I skimmed that article, as well
> as one where I read the phrase: "Women, are you
> treating your husband as the head of the
> household?" or something to that effect. But
> despite all that, I still have read stuff that I
> find useful and very readable. I subscribe to the
> theory that everything has some intrinsic value...

I agree with what you say. The JWs, by the way, stopped by my place and dropped off that Watchtower that you refer to.

As to general usefulness, sometimes their publications have quite good articles on Nature and the interesting creatures and plants on this Earth. I'm grateful for that.

Horsea, I will read anything. I am just curious about other people's beliefs. I don't know if anyone has read today about this cult in California with members from El Salvador, but some of their relatives found their belongings and they believed that Jesus was coming, yada yada. Now they are missing...Sounds very Heaven's Gate to me, but hoping for the best...

The JWs prefer their own Bible translation which they carry with them and are happy to answer questions about. Here's their Genesis 4 --

1 Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.” 2 Later she again gave birth, to his brother Abel. And Abel came to be a herder of sheep, but Cain became a cultivator of the ground. 3 And it came about at the expiration of some time that Cain proceeded to bring some fruits of the ground as an offering to Jehovah. 4 But as for Abel, he too brought some firstlings of his flock, even their fatty pieces. Now while Jehovah was looking with favor upon Abel and his offering, 5 he did not look with any favor upon Cain and upon his offering. And Cain grew hot with great anger, and his countenance began to fall. 6 At this Jehovah said to Cain: “Why are you hot with anger and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it? [www.watchtower.org]

..it illustrates my earlier point about Abel bringing "fat" from his flock as an offering, having already set aside the portion allowed himself, a practice purhaps even in Paradise (God didn't expressly forbid it when giving the plants as food). Typically it would be burnt on a stone altar as a sacrifice as would later be described by Moses, though there are different types of offerings including a type where the animal is released alive? I don't know but maybe Adam was a herder and Eve a gardener and Cain took after his mother... A typical JW would ponder these ideas using their vast knowledge of the Bible and many JW teachings and we'd have a conversation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2010 05:34PM by loeve.

Loeve,
As a child I had my teeth worked on without novacaine, at least for a while, because my mother wanted me to remain "Drug free". Ever have a tooth drilled like that? I bravely sat there

Tamukha,
The message of love and peace is difficult to see with the general ignorance fundmentalist christians seem to have.

Mislu, my father never used novacane so I guess I'm lucky to have been taken to the dentist by my mother who would trust the dentist to do the right thing. Sorry you had that experience. It's the problem with ideals isn't it? Sometimes they are carried too far. I know what it's like to try to express myself year after year and not be heard or to have my ideas dismissed.

"maybe Adam was a herder..."

Or a conqueror? "Adam" is Hebrew for man. "Adamant" is "a" + "daman" (Greek) to conquer.

Or maybe it was a time before occupations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2010 06:44PM by loeve.

Loeve,
Without doing much research on the topic, and going by my impressions. I think that story had is origins when agriculture was relatively new, and people had significant judgements and fear of the newpractice. Especially tilling of the ground.

In another section linen and sheep wool were forbidden to mix in clothing, the explation I heard was that it was because flax was associated with egyptians and farming, wool was associated with a pastoral culture of the early jews. There are other explanations, but that seems like the best one. There is also a connection to the story of the destruction of Sodom, city life again was unfamiliar with the pastoral culture. Again large cities are more likely with agriculture. I am somewhat partial to that judgement, just because our current ecological crisis perhaps had its origins to the start of agriculture.

Mislu

Yes, what she said.

I had root canal only partially frozen but as an ADULT. I still cried like a baby in the chair the entire time and fought myself to stay still. I can't believe you went through something like that as a child. (((hugs))) from this mama to you <3.

hey coco

that is so sweet

a belated hug is better than no hug

hey mislu

a hug from me too
sorry that you suffered like that
ouch
just hurts to hear about it

i guess your parents were very "purist"
or maybe they were secretly JW

i don't know
do JW people not believe in any anaesthesia?
or ... but what about if they needed some major surgery


like heart surgery or brain surgery
would they not use anaesthesia or just refuse treatment altogether?

sorry for my ignorance
i'm not too familiar with their belief system whatsoever

not saying that those who refuse medical treatment is "bad"
or those who don't believe in aneaesthesia is "bad"
heck, this is a raw vegan food forum anyhow

so we've had zillions of discussions already and the adverse effects of this
and that

just saying that

its different if one believes in that for him or herself
its another thing when an institution imposes that on another

then again, i guess they are always free to leave

or go against grain and endure the consequences

this is always true
that option is always there

the consequences are always there too

guess it just depends who you are

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loeve,
> Without doing much research on the topic, and
> going by my impressions. I think that story had is
> origins when agriculture was relatively new, and
> people had significant judgements and fear of the
> newpractice. Especially tilling of the ground.

That's very insightful. A tiller of the ground would be more subject to draught and famine if the crops fail, where a herder could get through difficult times depending on cattle for food and trade.

> In another section linen and sheep wool were
> forbidden to mix in clothing, the explation I
> heard was that it was because flax was associated
> with egyptians and farming, wool was associated
> with a pastoral culture of the early jews. There
> are other explanations, but that seems like the
> best one. There is also a connection to the story
> of the destruction of Sodom, city life again was
> unfamiliar with the pastoral culture. Again large
> cities are more likely with agriculture. I am
> somewhat partial to that judgement, just because
> our current ecological crisis perhaps had its
> origins to the start of agriculture.

Mixing linen and wool 3,000 years ago might have had all sorts of associations to cultures, religious practices and trade. The middle east today is still conservative with fabrics, colors and dress. One of my JW friends was fond of a green suit and proud of his Irish ancestry I suppose. Was it 100% wool? I don't know. Yes, there is tension still between city and country life. Were the men who brought down the world trade center city raised or rural? I suspect the later.