SuperI,

Jodi is right. Your dad likely has problems digesting apples because his liver, gallbladder, and stomach may be unaccustomed to pectin. I am actualy shocked that you are arguing about what is accepted science since, oh, I dunno, the BCs? Also, I am assuming you are joking when you call the concept of human overeating "deranged." It's not--it's a phenomenon that's existed since the first Cro Magnon man binged on rotting carcass until he vomited, in an attempt to fend off hunger. That's not microbiology, btw; it's paleoanthropology.

Please stop resorting to jingoism in your posts--Americans aren't The Coming Plague, darn it. Yes, we gave the world fast food. But we also gave it amber waves of naturally hybridized grain that kept most of Europe from starving in '46.

And stop making categorical statements about CR. It is a biological fact that, although peristalsis occurs whether the gut is empty or full, there is far less metabolic energy expended during times of emptiness. This is where the concept of Kcals, empirically demonstrable in a lab, comes from.

In discussing CR, why can't you say, "eh, for me I don't see it working." To vehemently deride it hews awfully close to vehemently deriding its proponents, who are nice people who mean you no harm. Let's keep the discussion helpful, OK?

Oh, Ok, I finally figured out what CR is: Calorie Restriction, right?

Seems to work great for some people.

About 80-10-10: Just to add to my previous post, I think 80-10-10 is OK for anyone who can stick to it and get enough of the essential minerals. These are important to consider. I'd just add the suggestion that when people feel cravings for something more or different than the 80-10-10 specifics, a few extra nuts will usually end up feeling a lot better and contribute more to confirming a raw food habit than going off the deep end into heavier cooked foods.

Or, another alternative that's not so bad is the steamed veggies that The Fruit Faery sometimes eats.

For people who find themselves consistently falling off the 80-10-10 wagon, I hope you will keep in mind that your diet may require just a small tweak - not necessarily a huge one. You don't necessarily have to give up all fruit or start on an Atkins Diet.

I eat just a little more nuts/seeds than 80-10-10 recommends, and that's perfect for me.

Also, I rarely find myself at 10% protein, and yet I do get the recommended amount of protein in grams.

Time to go run a few miles! Yay!

Jgunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how can you be sick of this deranged view that
> humans overeat when you yourself admit that you
> binge on nuts (legumes) and feel sick from it ?
>

That's because I find it hard to eat enough of the other more natural fruit, it's time intensive as well. If I didn't eat the nuts I'd be thinner. I don't feel sick from it (or at least not anymore), that's from other nuts not peanuts.

> humans overeat all the time

On raw food in its natural state? I doubt it.

>
> the digestive system processing cooked foods
> doesnt process it hardly at all while at the same
> time working extremely hard to extract nutrients,
> it sends out receptors looking for nutrients that
> for the most part arent even there, that is why
> people get sick , they lack nutrients they lack
> fiber they lack vitamins they lack minerals ..
>
> .. anything in raw foods such as undigestable
> fiber just sweeps through the digestive track
>
> there is no Faddist microbiology .. it is science
> .. a cell is a cell and it works the way it should
> the way it was designed by god or evolution or the
> giant spagetti monster in the sky whatever you
> choose to believe in .. do to it things that
> disrupt it and things go wrong ... stop doing
> things that dissrupt it and things right
> themselves
>
> i never said wild animals dont overeat or do
> overeat what i said is they do what they do with
> mindfullness and instinct ..something that is lost
> in the general human population!

Okay, I have a different view on it. I think your digestive system is underused and left to waste on a SAD.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SuperI,
>
> Jodi is right. Your dad likely has problems
> digesting apples because his liver, gallbladder,
> and stomach may be unaccustomed to pectin. I am
> actualy shocked that you are arguing about what is
> accepted science since, oh, I dunno, the BCs?
> Also, I am assuming you are joking when you call
> the concept of human overeating "deranged." It's
> not--it's a phenomenon that's existed since the
> first Cro Magnon man binged on rotting carcass
> until he vomited, in an attempt to fend off
> hunger. That's not microbiology, btw; it's
> paleoanthropology.
>

No, man would have had vast fields of fruit as far as the eye could see at many times during evolution. He didn't overeat and he wouldn't.

> Please stop resorting to jingoism in your
> posts--Americans aren't The Coming Plague, darn
> it. Yes, we gave the world fast food. But we
> also gave it amber waves of naturally hybridized
> grain that kept most of Europe from starving in
> '46.
>
> And stop making categorical statements about CR.
> It is a biological fact that, although peristalsis
> occurs whether the gut is empty or full, there is
> far less metabolic energy expended during times of
> emptiness. This is where the concept of Kcals,
> empirically demonstrable in a lab, comes from.
>

There is far less as well if you only swallow a few spoons of sugar or mouthfulls of bread. It doesn't fit right with nature and evolution, the body can get rid of waste as it collects.

Suncloud, I agree that 100% fruit is a very difficult goal. However with the right fruits, that are not now generally available, I think it would be possible. For instance, when returning from a fruit - grass diet in high Sierra I came across this vineyard of Concord grapes in the central valley of California (Modesto) that had been abandoned for several years. Without irrigation or any care for several years they were producing grapes with an extraordinary concentrated sweetness and energy. Also on the Stanislaus river I found an extraordinary fig tree. The figs had a green exterior (a dietary green), a sweet fruit part, and were loaded with pollen (a high protein boost). With the right fruits, most of which might exist right now, but are largely unknown, a 100% fruit diet could be possible.

Plus the Bonobo chimpanzee, out closest animal relative (with 98.5% of our DNA) eats 90 - 95% fruit.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I think 80-10-10 is OK for anyone who can stick to
> it and get enough of the essential minerals.
> These are important to consider.

That is certainly true, as it is for any diet really. IMHO though, the 811 diet generally provides MORE vitamins and minerals than ANY other diet, since fruits vegetables and greens are all you eat (and a few nuts or seeds). (not to mention getting all the tens of thousands of discovered and undiscovered phytonutrients, antioxidants, and all the other crazy miraculous stuff nature put in there). Without the EMPTY calories of oils, agave, etc in the diet, it's ridiculous how easily I surpass all DRIs. Except for zinc, which supposedly is overestimated (I think it's inflated to account for grains in the diet, which inhibit zinc absorption), as is calcium DRI inflated since all the animal eaters out there need that much calcium to buffer the extreme acidity caused by high protein intake. Oh and sodium DRI is inflated too, we only need about 500mg I think, of NATURAL sodium, occuring in greens and celery. Selenium can be tricky to reach, but just 1 brazil nut has loads.

> Also, I rarely find myself at 10% protein, and yet
> I do get the recommended amount of protein in
> grams.

FYI for anyone, 10% is just a max recommendation for protein, a cap recommended not to exceed, on average, just like 10% fat. ( 811 = minimum 80% cals from carbs, maximum 10% from fat, max 10% from protein. )
I have yet to even get close to 10% protein, I'm usually between 4-6% according to cron-o-meter. I would not worry about getting enough protein on 811 as long as one eats a variety of fruit, greens, and veg. Protein deficiency as a condition is basically non-existent as long as sufficient food is eaten.

Since the Raw & Living Spirit Retreat last weekend, I'm eating a LOT more fresh fruit and salads, and really cutting back on the avocado, seeds, and olives.
I picked up the 80/10/10 book after attending four workshop sessions with Dr. Graham.
I'll let you know in a year how it's doing

Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much
We are all in this together!
Namasté

thanks RawPreston, I'd often wondered that

The Fruit Faery Wrote:
> I am not you my friend!
> I listen to my body, not yours!
> As regards the juicing fruit tip....
>
> When i started along this path, I juiced my
> veggies and ate no fruit because i was told that
> is what i should do.
> Some time later, I juiced veggies and ate fruit.
> Further along my path I juiced veggies and blended
> fruit.
> Then one magical day i actually juiced fruit!
> I loved it and have never looked back!


That's great that fruit juicing "works" for you, I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, it was more a caution for people just transitioning to 811 (which is what this thread is about). Juicing fruit other than citrus = less than ideal. This isn't just my opinion.

And I asked why you skip breakfast because you had said "It took me a long time to break the habit of eating before going to work, just because it was breakfast time." As if eating breakfast is some inherently bad thing. Some may find it convenient however to eat their 10lb watermelon before work rather than take it to work and eat it there, in addition to bringing a lunch, you know? I'm happy for you that you don't eat when you're not hungry, I don't either. But I'm also not exactly wanting to get below 140lbs, I'm 6' tall. Undereating on fruit I think is a common issue with people starting on 811, which is again what this thread is about.

To rawpreston,

In my own case, I have a little harder time getting enough minerals without a few more nuts and seeds than required by 80-10-10. In the past, without those few additional nuts and seeds, I've had severe food cravings that sabotaged my efforts to stay raw. Whatever healing progress I made without the nuts and seeds was destroyed whenever I blew it on cooked food.

My advice is not for the people who find 80-10-10 easy to stick to, like yourself. It's for the people who try 80-10-10 and have trouble staying with it consistently, even though they'd like to.

I want to let people know that it's OK. A person can be very strong, healthy, and happy on a diet that includes a few more nuts and seeds, and is a little easier for them (and me) to follow consistently. I'm convinced that my diet is the superior diet for me, and may also be the superior diet for some others as well.

Interesting to hear about your thoughts on the protein percent. Definitely I agree completely!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2009 12:29AM by suncloud.

Suncloud:
Can you be more specific about those minerals? I'm curious. Is it possible your cravings were actually just for more calories? I'm not perfect yet with 811 myself, I have cheated a few times on some things. But I find the cravings only happen when I haven't eaten enough fruit, and I'm convinced they're only temporary. Partly I've internally condoned my cheats as kind of an experiment, and every time I do I feel like crap after eating them, or I get constipated or gassy, etc. I've got renewed vigor now though, no more experiments. Oh and your situation reminds me (I'm not picking on you, this happened to me too) of something else I see happen commonly with 811 transitioners: they will commonly make custom tweaks or allowances for themselves and justify it to themselves one way or another. I'm finding it's best to go all the way with it and follow the book to a T for now


To all:
I just noticed the 80/10/10 book is down to $20 on amazon I swear it was $30 until very recently. I actually got mine for 'free' through thankyou.com, credit card points.

Yeah, adding more nuts is "different" but there's no inherent reason why it would be better or worse.

I would suggest though that you do intake some nuts and leafy greens at some points. People always like to go to extremes, usually the best place is somewhere along the middleground (discounting food that other people/machines/implements have prepared for you).

Again, don't limit yourself to any diet if it doesn't work for you. Holding allegience to things is for football or unions, not your diet/health.

Good luck Rawpreston. I appreciate your honesty.

I'd rather not go into mineral detail at this point in relation to my personal raw food journey, which has been considerable. I'll just offer the suggestion that if the same thing keeps happening for you, it may be time to consider a minor tweak yourself. No shame. It doesn't have to be considered an "excuse".

What I meant was that nobody has to "justify" anything. If something works for somebody, then that's what they should do. If something doesn't work for somebody, they're not required to do keep doing it.

Suncloud,
I certainly didn't mean that you have to justify anything to me or anyone else. It sounds like you have things well figured out, I'm happy for you. What I meant was in general it seems many people transitioning to 811 (myself included) make little allowances here and there for themselves, but then if 811 doesn't work for them, can they really conclude it doesn't work if they haven't done it 100% for an extended period of time? That's all I meant really. once I read the book I resolved to stick with it absolutely for a while because Graham makes such compelling arguments in it. He's been doing it for 25 years or something and he's worked with thousands of people so I trust where he's coming from.

To all:
Also wanted to point out to anyone still reading this thread that Doug Graham graciously answers questions daily over at:
[www.vegsource.com]

And there's also a somewhat fanatical 811 following @
[arawconnection.ning.com]

SuperInfinity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, adding more nuts is "different" but there's
> no inherent reason why it would be better or
> worse.
>

Well, the science explained in the book is that if a person has too high of a fat intake and consumes a bunch of fruit (or other sugars/starches), when blood glucose rises, the fat in the blood interferes with insulin's function (which is to escort the sugar into cells), causing blood sugar to stay higher longer (bad), causing the pancreas (and adrenals) to have to work harder to pump out more insulin, AND giving candida more to feed on.

The common notion has always been that a high sugar diet causes diabetes, adrenal fatigue, and candida, but the operating theory nowadays in certain circles is that it's a high fat diet which leads to these things, and that a lowfat diet will actually cure them.

Well imo they have no idea what they're talking about. The body has all kinds of mechanisms we have no clue about. I am disappointed that there is "science" in the 811 book, most people call that pseudoscience.

The mainstream medicine has their own theories about it. They are all quacks. Just listen to your body and eat whatever you want, when you want SO LONG as it's not prepared by others.


rawpreston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SuperInfinity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah, adding more nuts is "different" but
> there's
> > no inherent reason why it would be better or
> > worse.
> >
>
> Well, the science explained in the book is that if
> a person has too high of a fat intake and consumes
> a bunch of fruit (or other sugars/starches), when
> blood glucose rises, the fat in the blood
> interferes with insulin's function (which is to
> escort the sugar into cells), causing blood sugar
> to stay higher longer (bad), causing the pancreas
> (and adrenals) to have to work harder to pump out
> more insulin, AND giving candida more to feed on.
>
>
> The common notion has always been that a high
> sugar diet causes diabetes, adrenal fatigue, and
> candida, but the operating theory nowadays in
> certain circles is that it's a high fat diet which
> leads to these things, and that a lowfat diet will
> actually cure them.

Dismiss it as pseudoscience if that pleases you. However here's some "science" for you: 5 references from the book regarding the fat/diabetes connection alone.

"
-Joslin, EP. "Atherosclerosis and Diabetes." Ann Clin Med 1927;5:1061

-Breneman, Carol J. "Type II Diabetes...Self-Induced Disease?" Millersville University (1997). This article also cites studies by Felber, Anderson, Burkitt, and others, all demonstrating the correlation between dietary fat and diabetes. Accessed at [home.judson.edu]
[^^original link broken, try [www.wilsonbiology.info]]
Also, a 2001 Science News article briefly describe Dr. I.M Rabinowitch's work. Entitled "Diabetic Patients Can Eat Sugar If Fats Are Eliminated," the article can be found online at [www.sciencenews.org]

-Van Eck, W. "The Effect of a Low Fat Diet on the Serum Lipids in Diabetes and Its Significance in Diabetic Retinopathy. Am J Med. 1959; 27:196-211.

-Anderson, J.W. and Ward, K. "High Carbohydrate, High Fiber Diets for insulin-Treated Med with Diabetes Mellitus. Am J Clin Nutr, 1979; 32:2312-21.

-"Low-Fat Diet Alone Reversed Type 2 Diabetes in Mice," press release dated September 10, 1998 from Duke University Medical center.
Accessed at [dukemednews.duke.edu]
[^^original link broken, try: [www.scienceblog.com]]

"

Well, it's just my considered opinion that those studies are worthless if you're eating all raw.

Dark leafy greens are a better source of 'minerals' than seeds and nuts, in my opinion.
I'll not bother to provide any sort of references for that opinion, since studies are 'worthless' to some people.

Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much
We are all in this together!
Namasté

Rawpreston,

No worries! My concern is for you, and/or anyone else who may be having difficulty with 80-10-10. If you happen to be consistently doing really well on 80-10-10 and never binging and never struggling with cravings, great! If that's not you, I'm just trying to say that you have other options for staying raw that are healthy.

I think Superinfinity makes a very good point about the studies. Studies to date on fats can't necessarily be inferred to include all fats. And they can't necessarily be inferred to include raw food vegans who eat nuts and seeds.

As long as we're quoting studies though, here are quotes from a few of the most recent studies, including some that are more specific to nuts and seeds:

In the newest issue of the "Vegetarian Update" newsletter from the Vegetarian Dietary Practice Group of the American Dietetic Association (Volume XVII, Number 3 and 4),"Dietary fats and prevention of type 2 diabetes" says, "Additional controlled, long-term studies are needed to improve our knowledge on the optimal proportion of different types of fats to prevent diabetes". (Italics and bold print mine).

In other words, fats are not necessarily all created equal, and we don't yet know the optimal proportion (ratio) of different types of fats.

Another study, same journal: "Tree nuts and peanuts as components of a healthy diet": "... a Qualified Health Claim was approved, stating that eating 1.5 oz (42 g) of nuts per day may reduce the risk of heart disease...Nuts are an excellent source of vitamin E and magnesium. Individuals consuming nuts also have higher intakes of folate, beta-carotene, viatmin K, lutein+zeaxanthin, phosphorus, copper, selenium, potassium, and zinc per 100 kcal. Regular nut consumption increases total energy intake by 250 kcal/d, but the body weight of nut consumers is not greater than that of nonconsumers. Nuts are an excellent source of phytochemicals (phytosterols, phenolic acides, flavonoids, stilbenes, and carotenoids). The total phenolic constituents contribute to the total anitoxidant capacity of nuts, which is comparable to broccoli and tomatoes."

From another study, "Nut consumption and risk of hypertension in US male physicians": "In a prospective cohort of 15,966 participants from the Physicians' Health Study, nut consumption appeared to be associated with a lower risk of hypertension."

From the ADA position paper on vegetarian diets: "...nut consumption was inversely associated with risk of type 2 diabetes...The risk of diabetes for those consuming nuts five of more times a week was 27% lower than those almost never eating nuts, whereas the risk of diabetes fo those consuming peanuts butter at least five times a week (equivalent to 5 oz peanuts/week) was 21% lower than those who almost never ate peanut butter".

Does anyone know of any studies specifically relating to nuts that show adverse effects from eating nuts?

Of course, if we eat too many nuts and don't exercise, we won't feel very good. Then again, if we eat the perfect 80-10-10 for a month and then eat a bunch of doritos or spaghetti or bread or whatever, we won't feel very good either. Has anyone ever looked and felt absolutely magnificent after eating 80-10-10 or all-fruit, and then gotten overwhelmingly hungry, eaten a whole bunch of cooked grain, and the next day looked and felt like 90 years old?

I'm just saying, it's not necessary!

For some people - maybe not all - 80-10-10 may be perfect for a day, a week, a month, etc. But if the body begins to give a signal that something more is needed, and if more fruit and/or more greens won't do it, then it's OK to eat a few more nuts and seeds. We might feel much better than if we ate a ton of heavy cooked starches! Nuts and seeds are not evil!

We all have different stuff going on in our bodies on different days. Exposed to car exhaust this morning? Well, the body may need some extra of this nutrient or that to deal with it. Not enough sleep? Same thing. More exercise than usual? Same thing. The idea of adopting a steady ratio every single day, rather than cluing into what a person's body says it needs, might just be against the rules of nature, and simple common sense. And for some people - maybe many people - it just simply doesn't work too well.

For the body to crave only raw stuff, it has to have had enough nutrients from raw stuff in the past to know what to crave. I we only give it sufficient amounts of certain nutrients - like zinc for instance - when we eat tofu or lentils or whole wheat pasta, well maybe, when we begin to get low on zinc again, our body will send a message to our brain to eat tofu or lentils or whole wheat pasta! Maybe we can ensure that doesn't happen by eating just a few extra nuts and seeds.

Big deal! Will we get heart disease? Not supported by any study. Will we get diabetes? Not supported by any study. Will we get hypertension (high blood pressure)? Not supported by any study. Will we get cancer? Not supported by any study. Will we gain weight? Not supported by any study.

Will we prevent a big cooked starchy binge that will make us feel terrible the next day, or the next week? Nuts and seeds have been doing that for me for decades.

I'm not talking here about overeating nuts and seeds.

An infatuation is energizing. It makes us feel beautiful and special; but does it may often end in pain? The long-term relationship, based on caring and respect, will have benefits that grow with time. It won't cause us pain; it will become more wonderful and beneficial with the accumulating years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2009 03:50AM by suncloud.

>CR is a ridiculous concept that has no bearing on reality and no definition behind it at all.<

Good grief!, lol

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

kwan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good grief!, lol
My feelings exactly about the CR issue.
The High-Fruit 80/10/10 Diet has the feeling of a
'Cult' to me. It's followers are most unfriendly to
all who disagree. I've been lambasted more than once....WY

Wheatgrass Yogi Wrote:
> The High-Fruit 80/10/10 Diet has the feeling of a
> 'Cult' to me. It's followers are most unfriendly
> to
> all who disagree. I've been lambasted more than
> once....WY

I would agree with you WY on this one.
I think the problem is that most people who want to follow the 811 come from a history of disease or bad digestive feelings, and feel so much better that they don't want to hear anything else, even their body.
But I think people should keep in mind that Doug talks mainly to physically active people, and thinks with the background of a physical active man, not someone sitting at a desk all day. His advice should be taken in this in mind, and just advice, not rules.
I don't think there is one diet for every one, as well as there is not one diet for someone all your life. Your body does not have the same needs when you are a child, a teenager, a young adult or more mature. Same, men and women don't have the same nutritional needs for hormonal balance.
Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying 811 and fruits are bad. I'm just saying if you're not active, eat less fruits and more greens, simply because you don't need the energy from fruits. And if you feel like you want the fruits, quit your desk and get you some physical activity and fresh air.
And again, I'm not against fruits. On the contrary, I eat fruits and greens only. And this summer, I've been building my two stories heavy timber frame and strawbale house almost by myself, on watermelons and melons (check some vids on my youtube canal below). ;-)

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]

Suncloud,
Great post. Have you really been raw for decades? Wow, kudos. Would you care to share your typical % calories from fat, if you've ever run the #s? We may not actually be in disagreement. But then again many people are surprised when they do, and if your intake is 30% or higher, I wouldn't be quite so quick to paint the "not supported by any studies" brush across heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and obesity. I believe there have been many such studies.

You do make a great point though about whether the studies on fats are applicable to nut fats, or even to raw vegans. Perhaps doctors John McDougall or Dean Ornish etc have more to say about healthy nut consumption levels. They also essentially advocate an 80/10/10 vegan program, but with cooked starches instead of fruit as the carb source. They and many others have helped countless people reverse heart disease, diabetes, and obesity with a lowfat diet. Is it not reasonable to assume that a diet which reverses these conditions would also prevent them? If one were to argue that the magic fat% is somewhere above 10%, what would that number be and how would they determine it?

I would like to point out that nuts are not off-limits on 80/10/10. For a 2000 calorie diet, 1oz of nuts per day is perfectly fine. The rest of the day eating fruits, vedge, and greens brings a natural fat range of about 4-5%, and adding a small amount of nuts keeps it right around 10%. For me I'm eating around 3000cal/day, so up to 1.5oz of nuts, which is exactly the amount in one study you cited, and exceeds that of another.

Personally I no longer put much stock in the "trust my body" philosophy of raw foodism. The mind is a powerful thing. Most people probably come to raw foods because "trusting their body" earlier in life wasn't working for them, what makes them think they can trust their body now? It requires a higher level of tunedness and experimentation than most people are capable of. Gandhi was said to make only one tiny change in his diet per 3 months. But he didn't have Doug Graham's book to read, lol.

But seriously, all I know is I feel WAY better on 811 than I did doing the "trust-my-body" and "as-long-as-it's-raw" styles. (and I didn't even eat that many nuts before). I now think I may have had candidiasis, because my energy was pretty BLAH, exercise was a chore, and I would very frequently take naps despite consistently getting 8-10 per night. I dunno maybe I was still detoxing or something, but since 811, my energy and mental clarity have been ridiculous, so for now I am sticking with it.

Will I experiment with more nuts in the future? I'm sure I will. For now though I'm loving things right where they are. I can't recommend the book enough.

Wheatgrass Yogi,
I'm sorry if you thought that I lambasted you. It seemed like you were implying that man was meant to sedentary, and I just do not agree AT ALL. Man was meant to move, and vigor is life, imho.

I do see what you mean about the cult comment. I have specific thoughts as to why I think that is, but I think I will spare them. Anyone curious can PM me.

sgc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying 811 and fruits
> are bad. I'm just saying if you're not active, eat
> less fruits and more greens, simply because you
> don't need the energy from fruits.

That doesn't really work though, since a pound of greens only has 100 calories. That doesn't leave much variability. No one's eating 5 lbs of greens. And vegetables are even worse in terms of caloric density. The only trade-off with fruit is either more fat, or cooked carbs.


> And if you feel
> like you want the fruits, quit your desk and get
> you some physical activity and fresh air.

That's a bit ridiculous. You repeatedly said how you're not against fruit, but you still perpetuate a fruit phobia imo. How about they keep their day job, eat the fruit, and start exercising once in a while? Exercise is necessary for EVERYONE to be healthy to old age, i don't care what their name is. I know people don't like to hear it.

rawpreston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Fruit Faery Wrote:
> > I am not you my friend!
> > I listen to my body, not yours!
> > As regards the juicing fruit tip....
> >
> > When i started along this path, I juiced my
> > veggies and ate no fruit because i was told
> that
> > is what i should do.
> > Some time later, I juiced veggies and ate fruit.
>
> > Further along my path I juiced veggies and
> blended
> > fruit.
> > Then one magical day i actually juiced fruit!
> > I loved it and have never looked back!
>
>
> That's great that fruit juicing "works" for you, I
> wasn't trying to tell you what to do, it was more
> a caution for people just transitioning to 811
> (which is what this thread is about). Juicing
> fruit other than citrus = less than ideal. This
> isn't just my opinion.
>
> And I asked why you skip breakfast because you had
> said "It took me a long time to break the habit of
> eating before going to work, just because it was
> breakfast time." As if eating breakfast is some
> inherently bad thing. Some may find it convenient
> however to eat their 10lb watermelon before work
> rather than take it to work and eat it there, in
> addition to bringing a lunch, you know? I'm happy
> for you that you don't eat when you're not hungry,
> I don't either. But I'm also not exactly wanting
> to get below 140lbs, I'm 6' tall. Undereating on
> fruit I think is a common issue with people
> starting on 811, which is again what this thread
> is about.


Poster wrote
It seems that a large number of posters on this forum appear to either follow Dr. Graham's 80-10-10 diet or a similar fruit-predominant raw vegan diet. I was wondering if some of you would be willing to share what changes/benefits you are realizing from this diet as well as what challenges you have encountered, if any. And how you managed them.

If you want to pick the bones....
this is what the original poster wrote. That is what I responded to!
'80/10/10 or a similar fruit-predominant raw vegan diet'


rawpreston Wrote:
Juicing
> fruit other than citrus = less than ideal. This
> isn't just my opinion.

And that's all it is... Your (and several other's) opinion!

The 'breakfast comment'...
I was trying to example the fact that i dont have set meal times. People take things so seriously!
I dont adhere to meal times. Hope thats cleared that up!
By the way, when you have been eating a fruit based diet for several years, done major detoxing etc, you may find that you no longer need to consume such large quantities of food anymore.


I figure that people give themselves such a hard time on a raw diet because they spend so much time involving themselves in optimum nutrition and following other people's opinions and ideals.
Its much easier and fulfilling to bypass all of that nonsense.
Turn your attention inward, not outwards. Thats where the real learning starts!

Eat, blend, juice and above all be happy!
ffx

Fruit Faery,
The opinion of juicing fruit isn't like me saying I like apples and you like pears. There are very real potential health dangers to excessive glucose spikes that people should be aware of. Especially those who may be obese, or those coming off of a higher-fat plan. This thread is about people interested in transitioning to 80/10/10, or so I thought, and juicing fruit is really questionable advice for them.

To clarify a little: It's a known fact that eating a fruit with its fiber slows sugar absorption into the blood. Thus juice, with 0 fiber, hits the blood stream quickly, causing the pancreas and adrenals to have to work extra hard to take care of this sudden rush. Excessive blood sugar is bad for many other reasons. It's called hyperglycemia, look it up on wikipedia.

sgc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But I think people should keep in mind that Doug
> talks mainly to physically active people
Yes, and he wants to Arm Wrestle them all.
I've never known of anyone with so much energy.

> And again, I'm not against fruits. On the
> contrary, I eat fruits and greens only. And this
> summer, I've been building my two stories heavy
> timber frame and strawbale house almost by myself,
> on watermelons and melons
Nice Straw House!! I'd be worried about it getting
wet.
Here's a picture of a Footbridge I built in 2003 using
Quadrilaterals. There was a lot of Math involved in cutting
all the angles......WY

[img.photobucket.com]