Hey, ive never read Dougs books but i was kindly given a few of his video links on candida yesterday. Before i start im not the master of candida i just know a few of the basics but i know enough to know what hes saying is wrong and for a guy whos praised as much for his knowledge i thought it was very poor.

To start he mentions that candida is the bodies back up system for blood sugar regulation, lol never in my life have i heard or read that. Candida has no role in blood sugar regulation, hormones and the adrenal glands are some of the main culprits.

He has no mention that candida is polymorphic and can occur in different forms such as its natural yeast form or fungal overgrowth. Due to changes in PH. Even wikipedia understands those basics.

If his theory was correct that the high blood sugar was feeding microbes, then why is he prescribing masses of carbohydrates and simple sugars. It makes little sense, i know the fat theory he uses but if your introducing masses of carbs it wouldn't matter. Millions on poor SAD diets have high blood sugar from the crap they eat but not even an 1/8th of these people develop candida, yes they will go on to develop pre-diabetes and eventually diabetes but it shows you high blood sugar doesnt feed microbes. Infact most with diabetes dont even have this problem.

He makes no mention of the good bacteria which are what generate acids that keep candida and other opportunistic organisms in check. Along with the stomach acid. When the PH of the intestinal tract changes to an alkaline PH this is when the candida growth gene is turned on and candida flourishes from its natural yeast form to fungal overgrowth. Radical changes of the PH is most commonly due to anti-biotic use.

You can limit all the fat that you want but if you dont get the terrain back to an acidic PH your going to have problems with digestion especially protein which is acid dependant. Many vitamins and minerals are acid dependant on absorption and lastly your never going to get rid of conditions such as candida overgrowth.

Yeast overgrowth is a fermentative condition and fermentation can only happen in an alkaline environment, whereas a natural acid pH is a protective factor against yeast overgrowth.

Even the medical community is growing wise to the importance of good bacteria that irritable bowel syndrome, c.difficile, crohns, bacterial overgrowth(SIBO) etc are occuring due to low levels of good flora.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 09:59AM by powerlifer.

Cancer loves an acidic condition. What you propose will create that condition. So why would anyone want to do that? What good is all your knowledge if practicing it only makes a person sicker?

The acid/alkaline theory is well over blown, most of these sites dont understand the basics of PH balance. The body keeps a strict buffer system so radical PH changes dont happen if they do conditions such as acidosis occur, which is pretty rare for most. Its funny most of these acid/alkaline sites end up at the bottom selling there special little drops or alkaline formulas. These are quite dangerous most are based on very alkaline elements such as bicarbonates. Manipulating the PH of the intestinal tract in such way can cause digestive problems especially protein, as protein enzymes are acid dependant, several minerals and vitamins are also acid dependant, candida growth gene gets turned on, and other opportunistic organisms are allowed to flourish.

What most dont understand is several areas of the body need to stay acidic in order to remain healthy, the intestinal tract, the skin, vagina etc. Which is why when antibiotics kill the good flora many woman start getting yeast infections down there, as the good flora which secretes the acids to keep in check are gone. But many due to these sites here acid and think its wrong.

They are also one of the worst sites for attributing every condition under the sun to acidity. For a start most cancers are viral based and have nothing to do with acidity. Much like the candida/parasite websites everything is blown well out of proportion about what ailments these cause. Most of these sites talk about systemic candida like its an epidemic, systemic candida is actually quite rare and only occurs in folks with severe immune problems for e.g AIDs, Cancer etc. Most of the symptoms these people list are down to adrenal gland dysfunction and other causes.

Anyway rant over but i feel very strongly against these sites which use little in the way of medical knowledge. These sites made me lose over 6+ years of my life going round in circles with anti-fungals, parasite cleanses, alkaline waters and so on.

People just dont understand the whole acid/alkaline thing, repopulating your flora with lactic acid bacteria will do anything but give you cancer, seen as how your good bacteria are 80% of your immune system.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 05:25PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer,

I agree with much of what you have to say, but would caution against assuming that

Quote

Millions on poor SAD diets have high blood sugar from the crap they eat but not even an 1/8th of these people develop candida, Millions on poor SAD diets have high blood sugar from the crap they eat but not even an 1/8th of these people develop candida . . .

There is increasing evidence, from clinicians like Tullio Simoncini, that candidiasis is rampant and the eventual pathology leads not just to diabetes mellitus but to cancer, partly, but not simply because, as Prana notes, cancer and fungi appreciate the same chemical environment. My feeling about this, having studied it and discussed it with clinicians during my mother's cancer journey, is that the rising rates of cancer may be explained in part by systemic candidiasis being severely underdiagnosed. The science on this disorder is really lacking, so it is up to us to figure out what's best for each of us. The fact is, that lots of people have used Doug Graham's protocol to heal from what they(or their physicians) believed was systemic candida albicans overgrowth. If that wasn't the disorder, what was it that the low fat/high fruit regimen was correcting, all symptoms being texbook consistent?

Ohh dont get me wrong ive spoke to many who have gained benefit from the high fruit/low fat im not getting at the lifestyle more power to anything that helps, just that his information isnt correct. If this diet has worked i can bet alot of money these people dont have candida. Most read these candida sites and assume they have systemic candida when in most cases down the line they realise they actually have the symptoms of adrenal gland dysfunction such as fatigue, food allergies or allergies in general, eczema and other rashes and so on. Building up your adrenal glands with fruits high in vitamin C and fruits/vegetables which are vitamin/mineral dense is why many of these get well thinking it was candida all along. Not only that, the raw lifestyle many of those end up cutting out stimulants such as caffiene, nicotine, alcohol and other toxins which were causing stress to there adrenals and liver.

Another reason is and ive been in the candida community websites since i was 15, is that many of these suffer from poor bile flow, you lower your fat and digestion improves and they start to feel alot better.

Again i havent read Dougs book, and i know many who praise the high fruit/low fat so its not that im getting at, just his candida knowledge isnt sound at all.

Candidiasis flourishes in an alkaline enviroment whether in the intestine, vagina it doesnt matter. Candida is a normal part of the body in the intestine, skin, vagina etc. But that is when its in its yeast form, change the PH and it becomes a fungus.

People who have read the acid/alkaline sites get the wrong impression that acids are bad like i said in the last post. The stomach acid PH is your first line of defense against food bourne pathogens. Not only that like i said above you manipulate the PH to an alkaline state your going to have big issues. That doesnt mean eating foods rich in alkaline minerals is bad its not thats healthy, but using manipulative waters and drops or baking soda etc is bad news.

Also most of those with candida overgrowth self diagnose like i did, i spent 5-6 years constantly thinking i had candida, you'd be lucky if any physician diagnosed you with candidiasis let alone systemic.

EDIT: What kind of cancer was it your mother had if you dont mind me asking tamukha, im sorry to hear.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 05:51PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer,

Colon cancer. The discussions veered toward other types of disorders when I started to read about the correlation between cancer and fungal overgrowth. My mother had had thrush most of her life, and evidence of other fungal overgrowth, and it occurred to me that these and her cancer could not be coincidental--seemingly unrelated symptoms can have a common cause. Thanks for your sympathy, dear.

The blood Ph, so I am told, needs to be in balance. Probably 7.0 is ideal (not the official 7.4), not acidic, not alkaline. Too alkaline blood causes weakness and illness, just like the acidic one does.

Powerlifer can you walk us through the different pH levels of the digestive process? Starting with the mouth, then stomach, then duodenum, large intestine, and colon? My food combining/digestion knowledge contradicts what you wrote so I would also appreciate a link or two so I can refresh my knowledge. I admit... science has changed a lot over the years and I don't always keep up with it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 05:11AM by RocketShip.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most read
> these candida sites and assume they have systemic
> candida when in most cases down the line they
> realise they actually have the symptoms of adrenal
> gland dysfunction such as fatigue, food allergies
> or allergies in general, eczema and other rashes
> and so on.

Or is it the opposite... adrenals are exhausted due to acidic blood pH? I just read these two interesting articles...

[www.bbc.co.uk]

[www.snyderhealth.com]
"All the body's regulatory mechanisms (including breathing, circulation, digestion, and hormone production) work to balance the delicate internal acid/base balance. Our bodies cannot tolerate extended acid imbalances. In the early stages of the imbalance, the symptoms may not be very intense and include such things as skin eruptions, headaches, allergies, colds and flu, and sinus problems. As things get further out of whack, more serious situations arise. Weakened organs and systems start to give way, resulting in dysfunctional thyroid glands, adrenals, liver, and so on."

RocketShip
Thanks for the BBC article -- "If the pH of your blood drops below 7.2 or rises above 7.6, then very soon your brain will no longer be able to function normally and you will be in dire straits."

Your pH Miracle article is talking about the Robert O. Young idea that the blood pH needs to be around "7.365", an oddly precise number. Young has a lot of great points but is in the pH supplement business (drops, etc) as well.

The stomach is acidic, the duodenum and rest of the small intestine trend towards slightly basic.


powerlifer
"...i know enough to know what hes (Dr. Graham) saying is wrong and for a guy whos praised as much for his knowledge i thought it was very poor.

"To start he mentions that candida is the bodies back up system for blood sugar regulation, lol never in my life have i heard or read that. Candida has no role in blood sugar regulation, hormones and the adrenal glands are some of the main culprits.

"He has no mention that candida is polymorphic and can occur in different forms such as its natural yeast form or fungal overgrowth. Due to changes in PH. Even wikipedia understands those basics."


I agree with you. Candida overgrowth in the Blood Stream would be a rare illness.

Candida in the GI Tract from the mouth to the butt is much more common and even normal, right? It's the population of candida at any one location that is the question, IMO, and can cause a multitude of symptoms.

It's a large topic--

Candida in the blood stream

Candida in the GI tract

pH in the blood stream (7.4)

pH in the GI tract (2-8)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 11:24AM by loeve.

loeve answered that question for me so thanks.

"Candida in the GI Tract from the mouth to the butt is much more common and even normal, right? It's the population of candida at any one location that is the question, IMO, and can cause a multitude of symptoms. "

Sure quite alot of people suffer from overgrowth of candida in the gi tract after antibiotic use, and thrush is quite common in the mouth. Although the white tongue that most people think is candida is more commonly bacterial overgrowth. Like you say candida in the blood, systemic candida are pretty rare and generally only happen in those with severe immuno-compromised individuals such as AIDs, Cancer sufferers.

I just skimmed that BBC site but its good, all those thinking that they are too acidic and such would have conditions such as metabolic acidosis and such. But they dont i wonder why lol. The snyder site below that was your typical crap acid/alkaline site and most of the symptoms he lists have nothing to do with being too acidic and what a conincidence hes selling dangerous bicarb alkalizers which neutralize the stomach acid. [shop.snyderhealth.com] Its funny people really dont understand the ingredients of these type of products, most are all in favour of them so you can get rid of this terrible stomach acid, but would have a nightmare if someone suggested you use ant-acids which are basically the same thing. Why not go one further and get proton-pump inhibitors from your doctor to kill off this deadly intestinal acidic PH lol. I joke but many are hurting themselves with these type of products due to lack of understanding.

These are exactly the products you want to stay away from if you want to keep your digestion working and not encounter problems with opportunistic organisms such as candidiasis.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 11:54AM by powerlifer.

Agreed, Robert O. Young (The pH Miracle) has a lot of bad ideas as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 12:28PM by loeve.

..though some swear by a supplement and know when and how to take it. You do what you got to do.

Links welcome!

RocketShip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Links welcome!

Im not sure if your meaning me, so unsure what links you would like, if it was for the acid/alkaline style theory then the BBC did that for me.

Loeve... I asked Powerlifer to walk us through the digestive system because of the statement that the 'intestinal tract' needed to be acidic. I hoped to give him/her the opportunity to learn the correct information through the process of searching for the data. At the very least to provide a link to data that supports that statement. You can give a man a fish or you can teach a man to fish... you handed over the fish.

Powerlifer...

I do not know anything about the author of the pH Miracle other than what was in his Bio -
"Robert O. Young Ph. D., D.Sc. ...Robert Young's research has been focused at the cellular level, with a specialty in nutrition. Robert Young's research findings have been published in noted journals.

Credible or not? Obviously debateable. LOL. So... what are your credentials? That is okay... none of us here are experts and only know what we know through other people's writings. Sources with credentials are always appreciated. What are your sources? Who are your favorite authors on these topics? Your favorite scientists?

Links to support the pH points of this thread pertaining to the body would be nice.

I am all for discussions but when someone makes grand statements then I like to see where that information came from -- they should provide sources. This is a good example of a statement that I would like to read the source: "most cancers are viral based and have nothing to do with acidity".

We can swap viable knowledge or... we can just get into a big debate about it with everyone telling each other that they are wrong. (LOL) That is what many of the members enjoy anyway, right?

Lol you sound quite bitter friend, i dont need make shift gurus or such. Anything ive learned are via medical textbooks, college or such. I have never claimed i was a guru or such, and never will. But if i ever do ill make sure any information i claim is correct.

If you look at the cause of most cancers, you'll agree that at least half are viral based cancers. Thats from medical texts not make shift gurus.

End of the day that information from Robert Young i havent read much but if its anything like the site you link ill laugh, because its bogus at best. Selling his bicarbonite alkalizers to manipulate the digestive tract. I dont need a guru to tell me thats wrong i just need someone with basic intelligence to know there hurting themselves.

You gave the links to the BBC site, that had the most correct information throught this debate. I made my credentials clear at the start of this thread im no expert, but damn i if these guys are gurus im a league beyond them because i use factual scientific information, unlike fake crap such as "if the body isnt making sugars" lol,

Loeve answered most of your question, read any basic biology book that the intestine, skin, vaginas PH is on the acidic side, it doesnt take a genius.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 10:47PM by powerlifer.

Okay... no resources/links/favorite scientists/authors/books... can't say that I'm not disappointed.

I have been on and off this forum for over a decade and the one aspect that I enjoy about it is the sharing of resources. Certainly not debates with no substance.

Im bitterly sorry that i didnt link my favorite in season fake guru for you.

read medical literature then you wouldnt need these fake self appointed gurus such as doug which clearly know very little about candida overgrowth or human biology. Its hard to list literature which references everything im on about because its basic biology and human science.

Debates with no substance is this some joke, we have gurus refering to candida as the bodies back up system for regulating blood sugar. Damn sign i have nothing more to say if you cant combat this with intelligence or medical literature. Candida has no role in blood sugar simple.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 10:57PM by powerlifer.

Hmmm... I don't recall asking who is your favorite guru. Fine with me that you didn't supply that info. (You perhaps lean toward paleo anyway, likely not vegan considering your other posts.)

Nope, I was asking for substantial supportive links regarding some of your statements.

Paleo lol, im a vegan on a high fruit lifestyle, but i do eat cooked vegan meals. Just because i go with science over some "gurus" pseudoscience doesnt mean i eat raw meat. I go with logic over airy fairy hopes and dreams.

Read a human biology book, or even wikipedia states about the PH change for candida. Its basic information.

What do you think about candida being the bodies back up system for blood sugar regulation lol?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 10:04AM by powerlifer.

Of course Powerlifer has a huge vested interest in discrediting 811 and Dr Doug. We 811ers don't buy his concoctions and snake oils ergo less sales.

I wasn't questioning your candida information.


You seem like a smart person. I don't know why you are objecting so strongly against citing sources for the points that I found to be questionable. And I only questioned a couple points when there were others that could also have been addressed.

Hey, take this opportunity to give me the smack down with some great sources so I will shut up about it! LOL

I am done for now because this has gone nowhere. It isn't a discussion when someone posts a thread with false 'scientific' information and then refuses to support their position with sources. We certainly shouldn't dispute opinions but science, well that should be an open platform.

I have no problem with 811 so get your facts straight before you spout crap. Also Dr doug isnt a convential doctor hes a chiropractor i hear. I have a PHD in webdesign so maybe im Dr.Powerlifer that should add some weight to my posts now lol.

When it comes to candida im not selling anything, fermented foods are free, they repopulate the good flora, and then you feed the flora with prebiotic fibres from fruits and vegetables. So that leads me to what the heck are you on about.

Like i say i have no beef with 80/10/10 or high fruit/low fat vegan diets you only have to look at the masses of members who have gained benefits, just that i love to critique bad information and them videos from doug on candida were full of inaccurate information about candida overgrowth. Snake oils lol at least pretty much everything i sell has studies or research behind it.

We seem to have got off on the wrong foot sorry rocketship, the alkalizing bit has been taken care of by the BBC link which was pretty good. What information would you like to see. The wikepedia link on candida is pretty good as far as wikipedia goes.

I put it to you brian do you think the information Doug gave in the candida videos/book is correct? Or do you just believe anything that comes out his mouth like a sheepdog? Doug seems like a down to earth nice guy, so i feel bad abit about critiquing him but if you write a book, do videos etc you have to expect criticism especially if what your saying isnt medically sound at all.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 11:35AM by powerlifer.

Attaboy Dr Powerlifer, you continue critiquing information all day. There are contradicting health information all the time. Knock yourself out.

For me,I am going to LIVE my new life to the fullest with the best, most radiant,and glowing health I've ever had, given to me by the following the principles of 811.

"if you write a book, do videos etc you have to expect criticism especially if what your saying isnt medically sound at all."

Doug Graham makes it sound like you can't eat too much fruit (sugar), that the body can handle it. Diabetics know better yet still hear "just eat fruit and greens".

They did a study in Brazil on hospital admissions, screening for candida in the blood stream and found about 2.5 per thousand had any candida species at all in the bloodstream (candidemia) --

"A case of candidemia was defined as the isolation of Candida spp. from a blood culture. Incidence rates were calculated per 1,000 admissions and 1,000 patient-days. Antifungal susceptibility tests were performed by using the broth microdilution assay, according to the Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute guidelines. We detected 712 cases, for an overall incidence of 2.49 cases per 1,000 admissions and 0.37 cases per 1,000 patient-days. The 30-day crude mortality was 54%. C. albicans was the most common species (40.9%)..."

"Clinical manifestations of candidemia.
Fever was the most frequent clinical manifestation of candidemia, occurring in 419 (62%) of the 678 case patients for which data were available."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Candida in the blood stream is an infection and commonly causes fever. Figures.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 12:09PM by loeve.

brian1cs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Attaboy Dr Powerlifer, you continue critiquing
> information all day. There are contradicting
> health information all the time. Knock yourself
> out.
>
> For me,I am going to LIVE my new life to the
> fullest with the best, most radiant,and glowing
> health I've ever had, given to me by the following
> the principles of 811.

Course there is and i should be allowed the freedom to critique it. Nothing in the videos were correct in my opinion minus the talk of various hormones and the adrenal glands regulating blood sugar, and i have already stated those other wrong points above so no point droning on.

Again just because ive critiqued his candida knowledge doesnt mean im getting at 8/1/1. Ive seen many get benefits on here and other raw forums from 80/10/10, so dont take it so personal. Anyway lets not turn this into another 80/10/10 debate this thread was nothing to do with that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 12:05PM by powerlifer.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> They did a study in Brazil on hospital admissions,
> screening for candida in the blood stream and
> found about 2.5 per thousand had any candida
> species at all in the bloodstream (candidemia)...


And they consider 2.5 cases per thousand high --

"The first remarkable finding of our study was the high incidence of candidemia. Our rates of 2.49 cases per 1,000 admissions and 0.37 episodes per 1,000 patient-days are 2 to 15 times higher than those reported for centers in the Northern Hemisphere, including the United States (0.28 to 0.96 per 1,000 admissions) (7, 21, 41, 57), Canada (0.45 per 1,000 admissions) (27), Europe (0.20 to 0.38 per 1,000 admissions) (50), France (0.17 per 1,000 admissions) (43), Norway (0.17 per 1,000 admissions) (45), Hungary (0.20 to 0.40 per 1,000 admissions) (14), Switzerland (0.27 per 1,000 admissions) (28), Italy (0.38 per 1,000 admissions) (49), and Spain (0.76 to 0.81 per 1,000 admissions) (4, 52)."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

powerlifer

Kevin Gianni offers two Doug Graham interviews on candida and prefaces with these remarks --

"Some of you asked for it…

So here it is! Dr. Douglas Graham’s thoughts on candida.

This is a controversial topic and for some a controversial way to handle yeast overgrowth. This is NOT the protocol that I used. The reason I’m publishing this interview is for a few reasons which I’ll outline here…

1. I personally like Doug.

2. As a journalist, it’s important to bring other sides of my story or belief systems to the audience (and be as unbiased as possible).

3. I think he makes some important distinctions here particularly about making sure you stick to the plan (if you choose this way) and that if there are underlying issues it may NOT work.

The last last distinction… about the underlying issues… I don’t think is generally made by those who follow Doug’s work. At least from the people who’ve mentioned it to me.

So here is part one, and I’ll have some more comments for part two!"

[renegadehealth.com]

Just though I'd get a link up to an interview.

Yeah loeve that was the 2 part interview im refering to in this thread, i should have posted them up at the start to be honest but i lost the links.

The shocking points ive already outlined such as the refering to candida as a back up system, no mention of good bacteria and stomach acid which keep candida in check, no mention how candida can occur in different forms etc.

I think one reason why many are just blindly following what he says is due to the Dr.tag. Its evident because you see some of the replies on the youtube video such as "hes a doctor he knows what hes talking about". It should be illegal to promote health books, foods, supplements with a DR tag unless your a convential doctor. Same goes for others such as Gillian Mckeith who uses the Dr Gillian Mckeith tag when shes not a convential doctor either but she uses it to add weight to her books/shows etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 02:23PM by powerlifer.