Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: July 11, 2014 11:57PM Panchito Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > sorry to burst your Quixotic crusade. when you > come back click here: > > [www.rawfoodsupport.com] > 4452#msg-244452 > > > > The Sproutarian Man Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > I have 54 pages of notes so far on high fat > diets > > with excellent studies included, and > > scientifically backed up solutions to making > > higher fat diets safe. I also have another 110 > > pages of notes on the alkaline diet nonsense. > > > In sum...the raw food diet and higher fat > levels > > is not as bad as we think. So many factors and > > mechanisms come into play which provide > protection > > mechanisms, and everything will be proven with > > studies and balanced commentary. This is the guff what l am talking about. Time to put this partial truth to bed and replace it with a fuller picture of body mechanisms with real world science and not this partial diet 101 talk. I promised myself l will stop engaging in nonsense talk and arguments, and l mean it. That's why such quoted refs will be fully exposed for the diet 101 baloney that it is with a heap of medical science refs to prove it. It's not about winning arguments, it's about getting a clearer picture of what's going on using ALL of the available science instead of just partial science for partial situations. Later. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 12:00AM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
SueZ
()
Date: July 11, 2014 11:58PM Panchito Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > sorry to burst your Quixotic crusade. when you > come back click here: > > [www.rawfoodsupport.com] > 4452#msg-244452 > ROFL! You're killing me, Panchito. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: July 12, 2014 12:03AM SueZ Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Panchito Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > sorry to burst your Quixotic crusade. when you > > come back click here: > > > > > [www.rawfoodsupport.com] > > > 4452#msg-244452 > > > > ROFL! You're killing me, Panchito. Suez, I think Panchito may change his mind soon. Papers will be posted and there will no wiggle room to get around it. Silly old diet 101 thinking will be put to bed. Suez...it's time we left the playground of the diet 101 world and became adults talking diet 404...it is the natural step of progression, and we will. www.thesproutarian.com Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
SueZ
()
Date: July 12, 2014 12:11AM Should be an interesting Panchito/TSM full moon weekend... Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 12:19AM "These acids are instantly buffered in the blood and quickly excreted by the kidneys. In the event of inadequate buffering capacity of the blood, the skeletal system provides an acid-alkaline balance by absorbing or releasing alkaline reserve of calcium and magnesium."
Yes, when the kidneys stop working properly and are unable to keep the body alkaline, acidosis can set in and leech minerals from the bones. The point is that "acidic" foods do NOT cause acidosis. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: July 12, 2014 12:25AM The fat and alkaline papers is a tough project to work on because the medical literature involves lots of complex medical terms and explanations, so it means spending weeks trying to figure out what they are saying with extensive side line study, and then putting it into plain English without losing track of the original message. What was once thought to be an easy straight forward topic eventually becomes a big complex puzzle to very carefully put togeather. It's not just a case of posting landmark studies....many many studies must be taken into account.
All l can say is that l am highly excited to be doing this. My intuition and diet recommendations in regards to sprouts and fats seems to be really close to the mark, and l am beyond delighted. BUT...at one time l was getting nervous about the fat levels in the sproutarian diet, but now, with further study, a beautiful picture is emerging that is making me smile bigger and broader than ever. Yes indeed, the last few days have been very very bright, l know l am on the right track. The higher powers have helped me all the way and l am very greatful. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 12:32AM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
SueZ
()
Date: July 12, 2014 12:35AM SueZ Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Should be an interesting Panchito/TSM full moon > weekend... There's probably going to be G forces involved so buckle up everyone and prepare for entering the wormhole to diet level 404... Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: July 12, 2014 01:44AM The problem with using wiki for various health information is that the people who present the information and references are not always widely read, so the information can risk being very partial and misleading. Sometimes wiki is excellent, other times it can be diet 101.
Many studies clearly show many Ph D's not being widely read either. Maybe it's due to time restaints, but other times it comes down to pure laziness and incompetence because they sometimes neglect to bring up landmark studies which would have altered their conclusions had they spent the time to read them. As with everything, there are good Ph D's and lousy Ph D's. Some of the best papers are the ones who are extremely careful in what they say, thorough, widely read researchers, and also clearly specifiy the limitations of their study. And it's also up to us to read widely so we can see the weaknesses in the studies also. We can't afford to get too emotionally involved because it means we can stretch information to suit our own purposes and start stating things as fact. Sometimes we can stretch things, sometimes we can state facts, but many times we can not do any such thing. As for following authors who write books....hmmm, that is a real slippery slope. Reading health books is usually not the type of activity l like to engage in, it is often a good way to a thorough dumbing down to keep you well and truely in the raw food 101 school (fairy land of illusion). Books are mainly good as a stepping stone for pondering ideas and for further investigation. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 01:50AM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 06:22PM the basic premise of an acidic diet (high animal protein) is that it increases the rate of cancer. But here is more to the acidic diet subject
[en.wikipedia.org]
Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:06PM "Many researchers have also found that excessive intake of protein increases calcium excretion in urine"
Not the same thing as too much acidity. "It has been THOUGHT that this occurs to maintain the pH imbalance from the oxidation of sulfur amino acids" This is because diets with excessive protein damage the functioning of the kidney's and the kidney's regulate blood pH. It's not the "acidity" leeching calcium, it's the damaged kidney's caused by excessive protein. The acidity of the food has nothing to do with it. Only when the kidney's are unable to perform their job does this happen, but we already knew high animal protein diets were unhealthy. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 07:08PM by jtprindl. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:08PM [link.springer.com]
"Abstract Muscle strength plays an important role in determining risk for falls, which result in fractures and other injuries. While bone loss has long been recognized as an inevitable consequence of aging, sarcopenia—the gradual loss of skeletal muscle mass and strength that occurs with advancing age—has recently received increased attention. A review of the literature was undertaken to identify nutritional factors that contribute to loss of muscle mass. The role of protein, acid–base balance, vitamin D/calcium, and other minor nutrients like B vitamins was reviewed. Muscle wasting is a multifactorial process involving intrinsic and extrinsic alterations. A loss of fast twitch fibers, glycation of proteins, and insulin resistance may play an important role in the loss of muscle strength and development of sarcopenia. Protein intake plays an integral part in muscle health and an intake of 1.0–1.2 g/kg of body weight per day is probably optimal for older adults. There is a moderate inverse relationship between vitamin D status and muscle strength. Chronic ingestion of acid-producing diets appears to have a negative impact on muscle performance, and decreases in vitamin B12 and folic acid intake may also impair muscle function through their action on homocysteine. An adequate nutritional intake and an optimal dietary acid–base balance are important elements of any strategy to preserve muscle mass and strength during aging." Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 07:20PM by Panchito. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:18PM "Meaning, that the excess calcium in their urine was coming from their diet—remember they were feeding them radioactive calcium. So the excess calcium in their urine wasn't coming from their bones, but from what they were eating."
"What seemed to be happening is that the excess protein consumption boosted calcium absorption, from down around 19% up to 26%. So all of a sudden there was all this extra calcium in the blood so presumably the kidneys are like "whoa what are we going to do with it all?" So they dump it into the urine. 90% of the extra calcium in the urine after eating a steak doesn't appear to be coming from our bones but from our diet. We're not sure why protein boosts calcium absorption. Maybe the protein increases the solubility of calcium by stimulating stomach acid production? Whatever the reason, yes, more calcium lost, but more calcium gained such that in the end most of that extra calcium is accounted for. So in effect more calcium is lost in the urine stream, but may be compensated by less loss of calcium through the fecal stream." "Other studies have also since supported this interpretation. Here's an ingenious one. Feed people a high animal protein diet, but with an alkali salt to neutralize the acid. The old thinking would predict that then there would be no calcium loss since there is no excess acid to buffer, but no, even though the acid load was neutralized there was still the excess urinary calcium, consistent with the radioactive isotope study, "challenging the long-standing dogma that animal protein consumption results in an acidosis that promotes the increased excretion of calcium…." You just posted something that completely contradicts what you initially posted, which is "Excess calcium in the urine (hypercalciuria) occurs due to increased bone demineralisation with acidosis". Once again, acidosis doesn't due to an "acidic" diet. Edit: Haha, you posted something that completely went against what you said and then removed it. That's funny. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 07:20PM by jtprindl. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:27PM [www.fao.org]
Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:30PM jtprindl Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Once again, acidosis doesn't due to an "acidic" > diet. animal protein create acids byproducts. Thus, raising the acid load. So, where is the mistery? Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:31PM "The empirical observation that each 1 g of protein results in 1 mg of calcium in the urine agrees very well with the phosphorus content of animal protein (about 1 percent by weight) and the observed relationship between calcium and phosphate in the urine (63)."
Right, and as evidenced by the study you posted (and then realized you proved yourself wrong and removed), the calcium in the urine is NOT from the bones. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:32PM "Thus, raising the acid load."
This has zero effect on blood pH, meaning it doesn't cause acidosis, nor does it leech minerals from the bones. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 07:35PM by jtprindl. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:42PM jtprindl Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Right, and as evidenced by the study you posted > (and then realized you proved yourself wrong and > removed), the calcium in the urine is NOT from the > bones. I did not prove myself wrong or anything like that. that's something you are adding foir free as usual to build your little mental castle. If some calcium leaks from the diet, that in itself does not exclude the calcium lost from the bones. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:50PM "I did not prove myself wrong or anything like that. that's something you are adding foir free as usual to build your little mental castle. If some calcium leaks from the diet, that in itself does not exclude the calcium lost from the bones."
Where is your evidence that "acidic" diets leech calcium from the bones? Once again, it is a MYTH. And yes, you did prove yourself wrong when you posted this: [nutritionfacts.org]... and then removed it. "This is the study that appeared to solve the mystery. An intrepid group of researchers tried feeding a group of volunteers radioactive calcium and then put them on a high protein diet. What happens when you put people on a high protein diet? The amount of calcium in their urine shoots up, and indeed that's just what happened. But here's the big question, was that extra calcium in their urine radioactive or not, and to everyone's surprise? It was radioactive. Meaning, that the excess calcium in their urine was coming from their diet—remember they were feeding them radioactive calcium. SO THE EXCESS CALCIUM IN THEIR URINE WASN'T COMING FROM THEIR BONES, BUT FROM WHAT THEY WERE EATING". Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 07:59PM you forgot my previous answer. they did measured radioctive calcium (short term pee) with the instrument but they did not measure non radioctive calcium (which would take longer to leachand pee out). Sure, if you eat calcium with high protein, the calcium from the meal would be the first one to pee out. But what if you don't eat calcium? The fact that they pee out a lot of calcium to buffer the acid load is what counts. High sufur protein load = High calcium pee Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 08:10PM by Panchito. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 08:25PM more from A S Naidu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 08:34PM by Panchito. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 08:29PM "But what if you don't eat calcium?"
Then there's no need for the kidney's to dump any excess calcium into the urine. Regardless, that's not even the original point. The point is that even if we assume "acidic" diets exist, they do not leech calcium from the bones. Acidosis occurs when the kidney's and lungs are unable to keep the body alkalized, not because you eat "acid-forming" foods. High amounts of protein may damage the kidneys and then lead to acidosis due to poor kidney functioning, but it's not because the protein-rich food's acidity is affecting blood pH. Once again, where is your EVIDENCE that "acidic" diets leech calcium from bones? Not quotes from authors who have fallen victim to dogma, not websites who don't have references, real EVIDENCE. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 08:31PM by jtprindl. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 08:39PM Dietary calcium is not the built in method for calcium level on the blood. Sure, it helps. Read on the role of the PTH hormone (takes the calcium out of the bones).
it goes something like this: 1 High sulfur protein diet (acidic load) 2 Pee out the calcium 3 PTH releases calcium from the bone to restore the 8.8 - 10.2 mg/dL level and also increases bone reabsorbtion from the intestines. 4 blood calcium levels normal again Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 08:41PM by Panchito. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 08:41PM "3 PTH releases calcium from the bone to restore the 8.8 - 10.2 mg/dL level"
Except you have zero evidence this is true. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 08:45PM jtprindl Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > "3 PTH releases calcium from the bone to restore > the 8.8 - 10.2 mg/dL level" > > Except you have zero evidence this is true. read about the main fuction of the PTH hormone here: [en.wikipedia.org]
Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 08:54PM "read about the main fuction of the PTH hormone here:"
That doesn't have anything to do with the acidity of foods leeching calcium from the bones. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 08:56PM jtprindl Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > That doesn't have anything to do with the acidity > of foods leeching calcium from the bones. the PTH "leaches" Ca from the bones when the Ca levels in the blood are low after peeing the Ca out (from eating high acidic foods aka animal protein). Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 08:58PM by Panchito. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 08:59PM "(from eating high acidic foods aka animal protein)."
Again, there is zero evidence of this. The calcium in urine is not from the bones. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 09:00PM by jtprindl. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 09:04PM jtprindl Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > there is zero evidence of this. The calcium > in urine is not from the bones. je je. Looks like you are now in the famous denial mode. The first pee maybe not from the bones. But the internal regulation will raise the Ca levels by "leaching" it from the bones through the PTH hormone. It is an indirect process. [pcrm.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 09:06PM by Panchito. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
jtprindl
()
Date: July 12, 2014 09:20PM "Look like now you are in the famous denial mode."
If you would've taken the time to read the actual study, [jn.nutrition.org], you would've seen: "Although several clinical trials have attempted to test this seemingly simple hypothesis (3,5,6,15–20), the effects of dietary protein on calcium retention and bone health remain unclear." Literally nothing proven, all hypothesis. "The first pee maybe not from the bones" You are just making stuff up and acting like you know what's going on. Not only can you not prove that the "acidity" of foods leeches calcium from the bones, but it has been shown that any increased levels of calcium in urine from high-protein foods are from the foods, not the bones. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 09:24PM by jtprindl. Re: dangers of ketogenic diets (very high fat diets)
Posted by:
Panchito
()
Date: July 12, 2014 09:24PM ah, now I see you are loweing the level of the myth claim. Thats good enough for me. I am not t rying to convince you all the way. I feel I already presented my case. So have a good day. I have other things to do Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
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