The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: August 27, 2013 01:59AM l want to write in this thread by exposing much of the nonsense raw food leaders, websites, and youtubes talk about when discussing omega 3's and EPA/DHA fatty acids. It's well overdue that we expose the nonsense and provide some real science so us vegans don't get a false sense of security. Throughout this thread l will provide the scienceof fatty acids, provide possible solutions to the fatty acid problems with the vegan diet, and blow the phytoplankton and fish oil scams right out of the water. It is about time this is done because all the nonsense put on to the raw community has left us confused.
Relying on walnuts for omega 3’s may be just enough to get the body to manufacture borderline levels of EPA long chain fatty acids, but one is still at high risk of being on the low side. Eating avocado certainly isn’t the answer to getting enough omega 3. While eating greens provides an ideal ratio to build up omega 3’s, it is risky because HUGE amounts need to be eaten, and when we eat huge amounts of carefully selected greens we greatly increase the risk of consuming anti-nutrients like polyphenols in our diet which will further compete against our ability to get proper levels of EPA because things like amino acids (a biggie) and minerals can be greatly compromised. The problems of high levels of oxalic acid in poorly selected vegetables can also cause major problems. So if we refuse to supplement, what the heck can we do? It is no wonder that there are no recorded vegan cultures in history….it is an extremely tough gig, but fortunately it looks like vegans can still so things to get enough EPA without supplementing. The most important thing we need to do is bring the omega 6’s – 3’s down to a ratio of 2:1 for ideal conversion for healthy people, as well as have good levels of amino acids, pyridoxine (vitamin b6), biotin (vitamin b7), calcium,copper, magnesium, and zinc to allow various enzymes to do their work effectively in converting fatty acids to EPA and DHA. But here lies another problem…vegans are often deficient in B6, zinc and possibly other of these nutrients. Another thing we need to do is not consume cold pressed oils high in omega 6’s (nearly all of them). So what do we do? 1). Consume food with good amounts of amino acids 2). Consume foods where it is easy to get good levels of omega 3’s to get a balance of 1 part omega 3’s – 2 parts omega 6’s. 3). Consume foods high in b vitamins 4). Consume foods high in bioavailable magnesium, calcium and zinc with minimal anti nutrients. 5). Don’t regularly consume oils with high omega 6’s. Just these five things bring in a whole new mountain of science and discussion. First l will post the science link and post the most significant findings here. In following posts we can talk about solutions and provide much more science so we can't so easily ignore this serious issue. Achieving optimal essential fatty acid status in vegetarians (vegans): current knowledge and practical implications [ajcn.nutrition.org] www.thesproutarian.com Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 02:13AM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: August 27, 2013 02:02AM The highlights from the above link - general information and stuff related to vegans
General info There are 2 EFAs, both polyunsaturated fats: LA (the parent n_6 fatty acid) and ALA (the parent n_3 fatty acid). Humans are able to convert LA and ALA to more physiologically active fatty acids through a series of elongation and desaturation reactions [LA to arachidonic acid (AA) and ALA to EPA and DHA]. The resulting highly unsaturated fatty acids are necessary for cell membrane function, the proper development and functioning of the brain and nervous system, and the production of eicosanoids (thromboxanes, leukotrienes, prostaglandins, and prostacyclins). While conversion of LA to AA is typically very efficient, conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA is much less so. In healthy individuals, _5–10% of ALA is converted to EPA, and _2–5% to DHA (8–10). Not possible to get recommended intake of EPA While there are no official recommendations for vegetarians and vegans, it is not possible for this population to achieve the NIHWorking Group’s proposed AIs for EPA and DHA. Even with the use of DHA-enriched eggs, some seaweed, and/or DHA supplements, the best vegetarians could do is to meet the recommended intakes for DHA. Some experts suggest that vegetarians (and others receiving no direct sources of EPA and DHA) at least double the recommended intakes for ALA (S Innis, A Simopoulos, and B Holub, personal communication, 2002). This would suggest an intake ofALA in the range of 1–2%. The really important part1 - The solution - the ratio needed of omega 3's - 6's The ratio of n_6 to n_3 fatty acids is often used to assess the balance between EFA in the diet, although there is some controversy as to its practical significance. For vegetarians and others who consume little, if any, EPA and DHA, the n_6-to-n_3 ratio is of greater relevance than for individuals who consume significant daily sources of EPA and DHA. On the basis of the proposed AIs, the NIH suggests a ratio of 2:1–3:1 (14). One study found that a ratio of 4:1 allows for adequate conversion to DHA in healthy vegetarians (20). Another research group suggested that the optimal ratio to maximize the conversion of ALA to DHA is 2.3:1 (21). Given the rate of conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA, it has been suggested that a safe and adequate ratio for the vegetarian and vegan populations would be in the range of 2:1–4:1 (22). This can best be achieved by increasing ALA in the diet and decreasing LA. The fatty acid situation in various food eating groups Vegans consume negligible amounts of EPA and DHA, while vegetarians consume minimal EPA (< 5 mg/d) and varying amounts of DHA depending on egg consumption (a source of DHA, averaging < 33 mg/d) (7). Consumption of EPA and DHA in omnivores varies according to fish and egg intake, with average intakes in the 100–150-mg/d range. n_6 Intakes are significantly higher in vegan and vegetarian populations than in omnivorous populations, ranging from a low of about 5–7% of calories in omnivores to a high of about 10–12% of calories in vegans. As a result, the n_6-to-n_3 ratio is generally considered to be elevated in vegans (< 14:1–20:1) and lactoovovegetarians (< 10:1–16:1) compared with omnivores (< 10:1). Because the consumption of long-chain n_3 fatty acids is low in vegetarian populations and LA intakes are relatively high, one would expect decreased levels of EPA and DHA in body stores. Reports to date suggest that this is indeed the case but that it is significantly more pronounced in vegans than in vegetarians. In 1978 Sanders et al (23) first noted that the plasma and total erythrocyte lipid levels of vegans were significantly decreased. EPA levels were only 12–15% and DHA levels were 32–35% of those of nonvegetarians (23). Another study found that vegan plasma EPA levels were only 22% of those of omnivores and DHA levels were 38% of those of omnivores. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: August 27, 2013 02:04AM The highlights from the above link - general information and stuff related to vegans...continued
The really important part 2 - Maximizing conversion of n_3 fatty acids While conversion of EFAs to longer-chain fatty acids is, at least in part, dependent on genetics, age, and overall health, several dietary factors also have a significant impact on the conversion process. First, it is important to ensure that the diet is nutritionally adequate, as poorly designed diets can impair the conversion process. Insufficient energy or protein decreases the activity of conversion enzymes, as can deficiencies of pyridoxine, biotin, calcium, copper, magnesium, and zinc (56, 57). Excessive intakes of trans fatty acids can also depress conversion enzymes. In addition, alcohol inhibits the activity of ?-5 and ?-6 desaturase and depletes tissues of long-chain n_3 fatty acids (58). High n_6 fatty acid content can have a profound effect on n_3 fatty acid conversion, reducing it as much as 40% (59). To achieve reduced n_6 intakes, oils rich in n_6 fatty acids should not be used as primary cooking oils. Cooking oils with the greatest n_6 fatty acid content include safflower oil (75% n_6), grapeseed oil (70% n_6), sunflower oil (65% n_6), corn oil (57% n_6), cottonseed oil (52% n_6), and soybean oil (51% n_6). Processed foods, convenience foods, and snack foods also are significant contributors to n_6 intake; thus, their use should be moderate. n_6-Rich whole foods such as sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, walnuts, wheat germ, and soy foods need not be avoided, as they tend to be relatively minor contributors to overall n_6 intake. These foods also provide a myriad of beneficial dietary components, including phytochemicals, fiber, B vitamins, vitamin E, and trace minerals. Finally, it is important to ensure that there are sufficient amounts of ALA, which is necessary for the production of EPA and DHA. Most healthy vegetarians would be well advised to double their intake of ALA, providing ??1% of energy from n_3 fatty acids or 1.1 g/1000 cal. For those with increased needs or decreased capacity to convert, an intake of 2% of energy or 2.2 g/1000 cal may be necessary. The primary sources of EPA and DHA are fish and seafood. Thus, for vegetarians, increasing consumption of these long-chain n_3 fatty acids can be a challenge. For lactoovovegetarians, eggs provide a reasonable amount of DHA (< 50 mg/egg) but very little EPA. Most supermarkets also sell DHA-rich eggs, providing 2–3 times the DHA of conventional eggs. Eggs from chickens fed flax generally provide 60–100 mg DHA/egg, while those from chickens fed microalgae contain 100–150 mg DHA/egg. The only plant sources of long-chain n_3 fatty acids are plants of the sea—microalgae and seaweed. There is a great deal of confusion about the EFA content of plants. While they are the original sources of EPA and DHA (fish do not produce long-chain n_3 fatty acids), most are not concentrated sources because of their extremely low total fat content. An important exception is a DHA-rich microalgae that provides 10–40% DHA by dry weight and is currently available in supplement form. When supplementing with a direct DHA source, 100–300 mg/d is recommended. Blue-green algae (spirulina and Aphanizomenon flos-aquae) are low in long-chain n_3 fatty acids. Spirulina is rich in _-linolenic acid (GLA, n_6), while A. flos-aquae is more concentrated in ALA. Though blue-green algae is not a significant source of EPA or DHA, some research indicates that it has a very high conversion rate in comparison to other plants (R Kushak et al, unpublished observations, 1999). Macroalgae, otherwise known as seaweed, is even lower in fat than most vegetables (< 1–14% of calories from fat), although it does contain small amounts of long-chain fatty acids. A 100-g serving provides, on average, _100 mg EPA but little DHA. Seaweeds do not contribute significantly to EPA intakes in the Western world but are important sources where people use large quantities of seaweed on a daily basis (eg, Japan and other parts of Asia). Thus, while vegetarians can rely on eggs and/or microalgae supplements for DHA, most consume little if any EPA. However, < 10–11% of DHA is retroconverted to EPA; thus, if sufficient ALA and DHA are consumed, total EPA production would be expected to be adequate Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 02:08AM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Mislu
()
Date: August 27, 2013 01:29PM Sproutarian,
Is eating really that complex? Is there a more simple version of this information? Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: August 27, 2013 01:41PM Yes, I was trying to puzzle this out. I think it says eat more eggs, algae and seaweed and less oils but am not sure. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
John Rose
()
Date: August 27, 2013 02:32PM Here are a couple of old posts from Jeff Novick...
[www.vegsource.com] Re: You NEED some fat in your diet. March 30, 2001 at 3:34 pm PST Author: Jeff N. Yes, you need some fat in your diet, but it is not alot. That amount of fat you need is 1% of your calories from Omega 3s and 2% of our calories from omega 6s. Omega 9s are not an issue. This amount is easily met on a whole food natural diet with out any additional supplmental oils or foods. In fact 250 calories of romaine lettuce will meet ALL your essential fat needs. Oils are not natural and not recommended. All vegetable oils have been shown to suprress the immune system and can also increase growth rate of certain cancers and tumors. We are NOT oil eaters. If you want oil, get it naturall from the nut, seed, or vegetable. Flax seed oil has been shown to increase the risk of certain cancers 300%. Eat whole natural foods and stay away from oils and refined foods. ALL Oils are HIGHLY refined foods. If taken supplemental oils resulted in an improvement in your health, it is a sign that you had a defecient diet. The answer is to fix your diet and NOT take highly refined processed oils. [www.vegsource.com] [www.vegsource.com] You dont need to calculate all this. All foods have fat in them. Romaine lettuce is 12% fat as are strawberries. To ensure that you are getting in enough of the essential omega 3 fatty acids, inlcude on of the following each day. 1 TB ground flax seed, or 1 oz walnuts, or 250-300 calories of dark green leafy veggies. Jeff N. [www.vegsource.com] [www.living-foods.com] Date: 03-07-01 09:17 Jeff N. RE: How much fat do you need daily? Going Fishin': More Q. & A's Chef Jeff's Weekly Health Update May 13, 1999 This is the final part to the questions I received in response to health update "Going Fishin'?" on 5/6. It is very long and addresses the issues of fish, fish oil, flaxseed, flaxseed oil, omega-3s, omega-6s, EPA and DHA. Q. Is there any nutritional benefit that you know of that we may be getting from eating fish that we can't get from eating plant foods? Can a vegan (all plant food) diet provide all the needed nutrients. A. Maybe. There is alot of study going on right now about essential fatty acids. Essential fatty acids are a type of poly- unsaturated fat (PUFA) that can only be derived from our diets, and this is why they are called "essential". There are two of these essential fatty acids: an omega-6 fatty acid called linoleic acid (LA) a "short chain" omega-3 fatty acid called alpha-linolenic acid (ALA). Unlike saturated fat, hydrogenated fat, and trans fats, these fats have several beneficial roles in our body. These include: They protect against heart disease by reducing blood clotting, lowering triglycerides and cause vasodilation; They reduce inflammation; They enhance immune function and play protective role against certain cancers; They are necessary for the formation of healthy cell membranes and the proper development of the brain & nervous system. The omega-6 fatty acid (LA) is abundant in our food supply and is found in fruits, vegetables, legumes, whole grains, and vegetable oils. The omega-3 fatty acid (ALA) is not as abundant in our food supply but can be found in fish, flax seeds and walnuts. As most of us get an abundance of the omega-6 fatty acid (LA) in our diets, the main problem right now seems to be in getting in enough of the omega-3's fatty acid (ALA). There is no established recommend daily intake yet, but current estimates range from .5 gram to 2 grams per day. (UPDATE: Latest recommendations are now that we need only 1% of our calories to come from Omega 3s and 2% to come from Omega 6s) Not only is getting in enough of each essential fat important to our health, so is the ratio of one to the other (LA:ALA) [Omega 6:Omega 3] also very important. While there is no consensus on what the ideal ratio of LA:ALA is, expert recommendations for the ratio run from 1:1 to 10:1 (LA:ALA) with 4:1 being ideal. It has been estimated that the early human diet had a ratio of ~1:1. Currently, in the US, the ratio is around 14:1 to 20:1, which is even way above the high end estimates. Other data from the World Health Organization (WHO) shows that of the current intake of PUFAs, 89% is LA and only 9% is ALA, Clearly, the balance is way off, and correcting the LA:ALA ratio becomes an important issue also. (The other 2% is EPA and DHA which we shall discuss shortly). Foods that are high in Omega 3 fatty acids (including the amount in grams per 3.5 oz serving) are: Legumes Soy Beans 2.1 Beans .5 Nuts & Seeds (per 1 oz serving) Nuts .1 Walnuts 1.9 Flax Seeds 5.5 Vegetables Broccoli .2 Leafy Greens .1 Fish Mackerel 2.6 Salmon 1.3 Tuna .5 As you can see from the above information, there are certain plant foods that are high in the essential omega-3 fatty acid (ALA), and so theoretically, a well planned unrefined, unprocessed whole-food plant-based (or plant-exclusive) diet should be able to provide us with the estimated needed amount. However, there is another concern. As I mentioned, ALA is a "short chain" omega-3 fatty acid. There are two "longer chain" Omega-3 fatty acids called EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexanoic acid). These fatty acids appear to have significant beneficial cardiovascular effects including reduction of triglycerides, and antiarrhythmic (reduce irregular heart rhythms) and antithrombotic (reduce blood clotting) actions. Studies have shown some of these benefits to be quite significant. Other possible benefits also include a decrease in VLDL, a decrease in blood pressure, and an increase in HDL. While there are no formal recommendations for intake of EPA and DHA, many experts believe that a minimum intake should be around 500-800 mgs per day. The British Nutrition Foundation recommends 1-2 grams of DHA/EPA. Current estimates on US intake is about 150 mgs per day. There are two sources of EPA and DHA. The first is that we can synthesize both EPA and DHA ourselves from the "short chain" omega-3 fatty acid ALA "if" we get in enough on the "short chain" omega-3 fatty acid, ALA. (Since we can make them ourselves, these "longer chain" omega 3 fatty acids are not considered to be "essential". However, this conversion of the short chain fatty acids to the longer chain fatty acids is not a very efficient process and it is estimated that we can convert only about 10% of the "short chain" fatty acid, ALA to the "long chain" fatty acids, EPA and DHA. Several things can also interfere with this conversion. These include a high intake of saturated fat, trans fat, hydrogenated fat, cholesterol, and alcohol. Vegetable oils like cottonseed, corn, soy, safflower, and sunflower, that are high in the omega-6 (LA) polyunsaturated fatty acid can also interfere with this conversion. These fats and oils all "compete with" or "depress" the enzymes necessary to make the conversion from ALA to EPA and DHA. Also, people with certain metabolic diseases like diabetes may also have problems converting ALA to EPA and DHA. Right now in the US, the majority of our fat intake (~75-80%) comes from saturated fat, hydrogenated fats, trans fats, and vegetable oils high in LA. As I said earlier, 89% of the current PUFA intake is LA and only 9% is ALA. The other 2% is EPA and DHA. So again, we may have a real concern here. If someone was to eliminate and/or dramatically reduce all the saturated fat, hydrogenated fat, trans fat, and vegetable oils high in LA, and also consume a whole food unprocessed, unrefined plant based diet, that included large amounts of dark green leafy vegetables, with some flax seed, walnuts, and/or soy, then theoretically, it is possible for them to correct their LA:ALA ratio, meet their ALA requirements and be able to convert enough ALA to EPA and DHA to meet all their needs this way. The only problem is, we don't have any "large" groups of people who eat this way that we can study over a long period of time to see if this is actually true. There have been some studies on this issue. Two studies were done on vegetarians with one of them being done on vegans (or pure vegetarians). Both studies found lower blood levels of EPA and DHA in the vegetarians and vegans. The "semi"-vegetarians (vegetarians who consumed fish) had the highest levels of EPA and DHA (when compared to vegans, lacto-ovo-vegetarians, and omnivores). However, two other studies have suggested that this ""lower blood level" may be enough to meet the needs of most "healthy" people. The second source of EPA and DHA is fish. Fish have an excellent ability to convert the ALA that they get from the sea vegetables and algae that they eat to EPA and DHA. While all fish contain EPA and DHA, the fatty fish are the best source. Salmon, Mackerel, Sardines, Herring, and Fatty Tuna, have about 1200-1500 mgs per serving. Lean fish, like Sole, Cod, and Flounder have much less, containing under 200 mgs per serving. So, based on the above information, one would need to consume about one to two fatty fish servings per week. Notice, that this recommendation is consistent with the populations studies I mentioned in the original article yesterday. So, based on all of the above, my current recommendation at the ctr to my student/pts are: Dramatically reduce and/or eliminate: - all vegetable oils high in LA (Corn, Safflower, Sunflower, and Cottonseed Oil); - all hydrogenated fats (margarine, shortening, and many packaged and processed foods); - all saturated fats (meat, chicken, dairy, eggs, some packaged products, butter, chocolate, coconut, palm oil, palm kernel oil and other animal fat); Consume a whole-food unprocessed, unrefined plant based (or plant exclusive) diet that includes large amounts of fresh dark green leafy vegetables, whole grains, starchy vegetables, legumes, and fruit. Include 1-2 Tb of fresh ground flax seed per day. If including any refined vegetable oil, limit the intake to 1-2 Tb per day and choose either olive oil or canola oil. These two oils are low in the omega-6 PUFA LA, and high in the mono-unsaturated fatty acids (MUFA). If desired, include 1-2 servings of soy products a day. If desired, include 1-2 servings of fatty fish per week. So, to answer the original question, is there any nutrient found in fish that we can't get from plants? Not in theory. Vegan/vegetarians have no "direct" source of EPA and DHA, but if a vegan/vegetarian was to follow the above recommendations, No. 1- 5, (eliminating the items in number 1), then they should be able to meet both their ALA needs and their EPA and DHA needs. However, I wish I could say that most vegetarians and vegans I have met or counseled in the last 16-25 years live this way, but unfortunately they don't. Many eat diets that are high in refined and processed foods including hydrogenated oils, refined and processed grains/carbohydrates, vegetarian junk food, and oils high in LA. They also don't include enough vegetables (especially the dark green leafy ones) & fresh fruits. Therefore, these vegetarians/vegans may have a problem meeting their ALA, EPA and DHA needs, along with a host of other health problems from their poor diets. Q. What about Fish Oil Supplements? A. I do not recommend fish oil supplements for several reasons. While they are high in EPA and DPA, they are also a very concentrated source of calories (120 calories per tablespoon). Some of the recommended dosages out there contain 200 or more calories. In small amounts they can cause nausea, diarrhea, belching, and bad breath. In larger amounts they can worsen blood sugar control, and increase the risk of hemorrhage. Additionally they may contain pesticides, contaminants & cholesterol. Therefore, I would rather see someone include a serving (or two) of fatty fish occasionally then to rely of fish oil supplements. Note: Technology has now made it possible for us to obtain omega 3 fats from marine micro-algae, a non fish source of EPA and DHA. So, if someone chose not to eat fish, and was concerned about their levels of EPA and DHA, then they may want to consider this supplement. The supplement (sold under the trademark Neuromins) is available for adults; however, it is currently only sold in gel caps. Q. What about flaxseed Oil and/or flax seed oil supplements? A. I do not recommend the use of flaxseed oil or flaxseed oil supplements. Like all oils, flaxseed oil is a concentrated source of calories. Also, there are other benefits to consuming the whole flaxseed that would not be available in the oil. One of these is a type of fiber found in flaxseeds called lignans. Lignans have been shown to have anticancer effects and are associated with a significant reduced risk of breast cancer. Additionally, flaxseeds are a good sources of iron, zinc, calcium, protein, potassium, magnesium, vitamin E and folate. These important nutrients play many beneficial roles in health maintenance and disease prevention. Flaxseed oil is pure fat and virtually void of all or most of these nutrients (except for vitamin E). UPDATE: "...Research from Charles Myers, MD, at the University of Virginia Medical School in Charlottesville showed that flax seed oil causes a 300% increase in the growth of prostate cancer cells. He said, 'It is the most powerful stimulus we know of for prostate cancer cells.'" Q. What about Soy and Walnut Oil? A. Soy and walnut oils are high in LA but they also have a higher content of ALA then corn, safflower, sunflower, and cottonseed oil. So, while their higher ALA content may partially compensate for their high LA content, they are still not your best choice if choosing a vegetable oil. I would still recommend olive or canola oil over walnut or soy oil, if you were to want to include some oil in your diet. Additionally, regardless of which oil you do choose, keep the total amount to a minimum, probably no more then 1-2 TB per day. And when choosing olive oil, I would look for an imported cold pressed extra virgin one. Some final thoughts on whether a pure vegetarian/vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate...... I remember many years ago when vegans were told that they couldn't get enough protein (and all the essential amino acids) from plant foods, and in order to do this, they must follow some complicated protein complementing rules at each and every meal. Eventually this turned out not to be true and that plant foods were adequate sources of protein (containing all the essential amino acids) and if one consumed enough calories, ate a variety of foods, and limited refined junk food they would be fine. However, there was some truth in this, as certain plant foods do have "limiting" amino acids, or ones that they are low in. And, if a vegan didn't eat a variety of whole foods, consume enough calories, and limit processed and junk food, then there is a slight chance that they could possibly run into a problem long-term. Then the issue of B12 came along. B12 is only synthesized by microorganisms, and animals (and animal products) are a rich source of B12. If vegans didn't consume any animal products it was said that they would run into a B12 deficiency which could cause irreversible nerve damage. The thought that sea vegetables and algae were a good source became very popular, but then it turned out that they contained B12 analogues, and not only were then not useable, but they could interfere with real B12 absorption. It was also realized that humans, like most animals, could synthesize B12 in their own GI system. But the question was, could it be enough to meet their needs. There are some studies that show that in some other countries (like Iran) this may be possible. But studies in this country have consistently shown vegans to have low levels. Part of this has to do with our "sterile" food supply which eliminated the B12 producing bacteria. In my own professional experience I have seen several vegans with very low B12 levels. B12 supplements from plant sources are available, and so there is a "vegan" solution to the "problem". Vitamin D is not available in plant foods, but we can easily synthesize enough Vitamin D from the sun so this is not an issue. And now the issue of EPA and DHA are here. Will this turn out to be a real issue or not, only time will tell. It is possible on a well planned healthy vegan diet to consume enough ALA to meet all your ALA and EPA and DHA needs. But some attention must be paid to the planning of the diet. . And if not, it seems like now there is a "vegan" solution.... EPA and DHA derived from sea vegetables and microalgae. Not just any vegan or vegetarian diet is a healthy diet (Potato chips and French fries are vegan) Unfortunately many vegans and vegetarians think that this is so and have a false sense of security about their health Being a vegan or vegetarian does not automatically guarantee health. I have seen/met many people who include small amounts of animal products in their diets who have much healthier diets then many of the vegetarians/vegans out there. Remember, Your "Health" Is Your Greatest Wealth! In Health, Chef Jeff [www.living-foods.com] Peace and Love..........John Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: August 27, 2013 09:58PM coco Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Yes, I was trying to puzzle this out. I think it > says eat more eggs, Eggs are not the answer either, but they do have some things in them which can help. >algae and seaweed These can help because they have some small amounts of EPA and othger factors which easily convert to EPA. THeSt0rm Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > BTW, chia and flax are gelatinous much like tomato > seeds are, and tomato seeds are often fermented > before planting to get the gel off the seeds. But > the way it is often fermented would be unsanitary > for eating probably. Plus it wouldn't yield exact > amounts. Yes, we need to be more careful when fermenting sprouted gel seeds because things can go downhill fast. Definitely need to ferment them for a shorter time and try to dry and crush them if possible. Thanks John for the post above. l'll study it more later. Interesting how he talks about romain lettuce meeting requirements. Still, l don't think he has hit the nail on the head with everything. He talks about certain foods being good sources of nutrients, but he doesn't talk about bio-availability of nutrients from foods (very few raw fooders ever do). Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 10:10PM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Mislu
()
Date: August 27, 2013 10:04PM Purslane is a great source of omega 3's. I have seen perilla seed oil being sold somewhere as a good source of omega 3s. In korea they eat the leaves, I have had it in kimchi. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: August 29, 2013 12:00AM I'm going to try harvesting some purslane seeds to plant next year. It seems to grow in the worst places, cracks in parking lot pavement and such. I'm not sure it isn't sucking up all sorts of yuck in those locations, not sure about eating it... Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Tamukha
()
Date: September 01, 2013 01:36PM coco,
I used to grow purslane in troughs--like for window boxes--on a bench in my backyard. It can be grown like an herb this way, and is prolific. Just in case, you know, the one you pick from cracks in the sidewalk proves inedible ; ) The Sproutarian Man and John Rose, Lots of interesting things to think about; I try to limit fresh flax to only a few times a week because of its goitrogenic properties. Need to find an alternative to it, and this info will prompt me to keep searching. Thanks! Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: September 01, 2013 02:04PM Why not chia Tam? I like those little seeds. Or hemp...
I was at a lavender farm yesterday and there was purslane going to seed in their parking lot, I was so tempted to scoop it up. Think I'm gonna wait though, I can find it further from the road at our old location, we'll be there on the weekend for a bit so I'll search it out then . Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Tamukha
()
Date: September 02, 2013 02:49AM THeStOrm,
If a food makes me tired, and consistently, I assume this is a sensitivity or the begining stages of allergy, and I avoid that food. I don't think chia and flax have cyanide, and as far as I know, only flax is goitrogenic. If you tolerate flax well, go with that! Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: September 06, 2013 01:13AM There is lots of things which need to be talked about in this topic, but l will get back to all things next week.
Supplementation of Milled Chia Seeds Increases Plasma ALA and EPA in Postmenopausal Women [link.springer.com] Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: September 11, 2013 09:26PM A reason why consuming flax seeds and flax oil may not be the answer to getting good omega 3's and EPA's.
Bioavailability of alpha-linolenic acid in subjects after ingestion of three different forms of flaxseed. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] Milled flax is superior, but l think sprouted/fermented flax is probably much better. l've got heaps of stuff to say in this thread and will get back to John Rose's links and dissect what Jeff Novick has to say and make comment on it. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: September 11, 2013 11:01PM A BIG boy that contributes to EPA and DHA production - fermented chia seed sprouts
But even better would be to dry the sprouts, crush them and then ferment them. As good as it gets. Purslane weeds is also a good one to include, but we need to tame the savage beast within it...the anti nutrients, in particular, oxalic acid [www.scielo.cl] Sorry `banana who' l know you don't like oxalic acid being discussed but it is an important subject to discuss. Vegans have badly failed over the years, but now we have some decent science, so we need to help ourselves and use it to try and become successful at this diet. l'll get back to this very important topic later. www.thesproutarian.com Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2013 11:10PM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
cynthia
()
Date: September 15, 2013 04:50PM I read this highly scientific based thread and I fell hopeless -
Has eating to be so complicated? Could we just go by our senses, our body feeling? For example, if a food tastes good in its natural, unprocessed and untransformed state, then it would be appropriated to be eaten? - if we have to put seasoning on it, salt, oil so we can digest it then we should think twice. Why should we try to transform unpleasant food into palatable stuff through adding, dehydrating, sweetening... So the edible food would fall into the following categories: fruits (whatever please and agree to us, preferably local) roots and vegetables (whatever please and agree to us, preferably local) nuts and seeds (hydrated before eating) seaweeds, algae (for those living near the sea) sprouts (whatever please and agree to us, for winter time) fermented food (like sauerkraut, etc., involving minimal transformation) dry fruits, seeds, nuts (for winter time mostly, hydrated before eating) No oils, salt, seasoning, frozen foods, yeast (Engevita, etc.), maple syrup, pills, supplements, etc., etc. Only fresh living food and nothing else. Could it be bearable and realistic? Love and blessings Cynthia Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: September 15, 2013 10:49PM cynthia Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I read this highly scientific based thread and I > fell hopeless - > > Has eating to be so complicated? Could we just go > by our senses, our body feeling? > > For example, if a food tastes good in its natural, > unprocessed and untransformed state, then it would > be appropriated to be eaten? - if we have to put > seasoning on it, salt, oil so we can digest it > then we should think twice. > > Why should we try to transform unpleasant food > into palatable stuff through adding, dehydrating, > sweetening... > > So the edible food would fall into the following > categories: > > fruits (whatever please and agree to us, > preferably local) > roots and vegetables (whatever please and agree to > us, preferably local) > nuts and seeds (hydrated before eating) > seaweeds, algae (for those living near the sea) > sprouts (whatever please and agree to us, for > winter time) > fermented food (like sauerkraut, etc., involving > minimal transformation) > dry fruits, seeds, nuts (for winter time mostly, > hydrated before eating) > > No oils, salt, seasoning, frozen foods, yeast > (Engevita, etc.), maple syrup, pills, supplements, > etc., etc. Only fresh living food and nothing > else. > > Could it be bearable and realistic? > > Love and blessings > Cynthia l was thinking about this same issue yesterday, and here are some of my thoughts. There do appear to be some people who have eaten a simple natural hygeine diet of largely fruits and vegetables over a 15 year period or more who do appear to be doing o.k. John Kohler seems one of the few who have appeared to manage such a diet. One of his strengths is that he eats FRESH, and he is highly cleansed, and he probably is getting a good balance of omega 3's - 6's because he eats lots of fruit and vegetables with adequate ratios, and he seems to keep a good healthy weight. But at the same time, he wouldn't be digesting much of the stuff he eats - it doesn't matter if it's green juices...there are certain things in the raw diet that makes proteins, carbs, fatty acids, vitamins and minerals hard to absorb, + diets high in fiber have been reported to cause problems over a long term period. Does he fast to to clean his body from the build-ups that are caused from indigestion from the greens? Then again, maybe the distilled water from the greens are enough to clean the body of the undigested material, but not so says Dr Jubb. It will be interesting to see how John goes after 30 years on such a diet. Personally l strongly feel that human beings are not what they once were. We are a greatly weakened species, we live in a highly polluted world, we were born to sick parents, our DNA is greatly weakened, our pineal glands are closed, our bacteria levels are compromised, and we are eating far too much, and we are not able to produce many nutrients as hormones as we probably once did in a much more natural age in time. l feel once that we may have been fruitarian and survived on a small amount of fresh fruit, so the complex sugars in fruits wasn't abused, and tannins weren't much of a problem as now because all fruit was fresh. But evenstill, mankind wasn't in perfection because he stepped out of the `so called' garden of eden' to taste the forbidden fruits and it's anti nutrients that caused less than optimal digestion. And before we knew it we were getting into nuts, seeds and vegetables and sprouts and the higher levels of anti nutrients that come with those foods. I feel the fabled `garden of eden' was a test for mankind like everything is...it gave us a choice and that's why we were given a stomach. And the more l read the science of food and become increasingly enlightened, the more l believe that we were indeed breatharian. When you read about how all food is not properly digested because of anti nutrients, and when you read that various men have been able to synthesise various nutrients and contradict science it does make one think that we are not a shadow of ourselves and have truely taken a poor path, and it does make one think that it is possible we were once breatharians. These days we are in lots of trouble because we have fallen so far that most people don't even eat fresh foods, and to make it worse, we live in highly stressed times and most of us do need to eat more than just fruit, and we need to eat quite a lot of food. Here is the problem. We are eating a lot, we are eating high anti nutrient food, high fiber foods with course fibers, and we are eating non fresh foods. We are not even close to nature or healthg. The only solution l have been able to work out is sprouting and fermenting, especially those concentrated foods like fermented sprouted seeds and fermented sea weeds to boost the nutrition levels. But even if you want to avoid sprouts, at least grow your own vegetables and ferment them or have a green drink in a fermented water solution to try and get maximum absorption. Mankind are in big trouble and we need to be eating fresh and fermenting at a very minimum because the foods we eat are less than optimal. When you ferment you feel the difference in digestion and the food tastes much better. So, lets be armed with some good tools of food prepartion and make the diet as healthy as possible. Lots of cultures prepare fermented foods: Is Fermenting Grains Traditional? [www.thenourishinggourmet.com] A long article FERMENTED CEREALS. A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE [www.fao.org] In this day and age we need to help ourselves as much as possible. I am just an ordinary bloke, but l eat fresh and ferment my foods, and l enjoy my food. It's not that hard. www.thesproutarian.com Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2013 10:58PM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
cynthia
()
Date: September 16, 2013 09:02PM well - I think too more and more about breatharianism as the way humans with purpose should go
obviously non-absorption or bad absorption of food because of anti-nutrients or others reasons like weakness of bodily organs, negative emotions, etc. is a problem. so, the ideal is there and I see it (see previous post) but I agree we have to do something more (cleansing, fasting, ...) to get where we want to be. Sages say We are already there, but we have to admit we need to purify ourselves to be aware of it. blessings and love Cynthia Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
rab
()
Date: November 19, 2013 06:59AM Just a question...if somehow someone proved to you that humans need to eat shells, crustaceans, squid and octopus - I said if they CONVINCED you scientifically - would you? I think that the morals of a vegan would not let them eat animal based food EVEN if it is natural and healthy for them. Vegans simply believe in being more moral if they don't eat animals. And, even if it is a matter of health, a lot of vegans and vegetarians would not add any kind of sea food or eggs or similar to their diet.
I am not sure if this is a right way to go. Create a moral dogma and follow it... I am 100% sure that we need to eat a lot of fruit. Maybe some veggies too. But I am also sure that we need a little bit of other stuff. Simply because we do. And that 'other stuff' can also be raw. It should be. My goal is to stay raw (natural) as much as I can. No other goals. You can't improve on God said one smart lady doctor. We need to be true to ourselves, not to a dogma. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
BJ
()
Date: November 19, 2013 07:42AM That's if you believe in god, and if you do, then god meant us to eat our food freshly picked in nutrient rich soil. Nothing is natural anymore so to pretend that by eating raw foods we are eating naturally is just fooling ourselves.That doesn't mean we go to the other extreme and eat a 100% junk food diet and use that as an argument.
I sometimes liken the eating of raw fruits and raw and cooked vegies to the bricks in building a house. By volume and weight the bricks make up over 90%, but without the cement to hold the bricks together the whole thing falls apart. For a lot of people - for whatever reason -, the 10% other than the fruit and vegies ( whatever it is ) is the cement that holds their bodies together. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2013 07:55AM by BJ. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Alberto
()
Date: November 26, 2013 08:51PM " Flax seed oil has been shown to increase the risk of certain cancers 300%."
but where he has read this information? the only sources of high quality of omega 3 are chia seeds, flax seeds and flax oil. in the my salads i use flax oil... Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: December 05, 2013 04:06AM The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > The most important thing we need to do is bring > the omega 6’s – 3’s down to a ratio of 2:1 > for ideal conversion for healthy people, as well > as have good levels of amino acids, pyridoxine > (vitamin b6), biotin (vitamin b7), calcium,copper, > magnesium, and zinc to allow various enzymes to do > their work effectively in converting fatty acids > to EPA and DHA. And here lies another problem with many plant diets, according to this peer reviewed science many vegans wouldn't be getting an adequate conversion to EPA/DHA no matter how much ALA (omega 3) they are injesting. This could well be the case because many would not getting enough of the above nutrients, and it is highly likely caused by the excess copper intake which would lower zinc absorption. It doesn't matter if you are getting enough nutrient in your diet, the question is...what are you absorbing??? And if you are on a natural hygiene diet you would be at greater risk imo (actually, l am convinced of that), and this might explain why some older hygienists appear spacey and vague. And there is even a study that shows people who supplemented with flax oil, baked flax and milled flax still didn't get the benefit of producing EPA. This tells us that there is more to the story than increasing omega 3's. Best to consume good balanced amounts of the mentioned nutrients (in quote above), but to do that we need to be aware of roughly how much we are absorbing and be aware of the impact of anti-nutrients so we can come up with an effective strategy to remedy the situation. How many raw food leaders talk about these things? None! But it is about time they did. Bioavailability of alpha-linolenic acid in subjects after ingestion of three different forms of flaxseed Austria JA, Richard MN, Chahine MN, Edel AL, Malcolmson LJ, Dupasquier CM, Pierce GN [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 04:09AM by The Sproutarian Man. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
Prana
()
Date: December 05, 2013 07:09AM For those of you who can't convert omega 3s to DHA, there are vegan algae based DHA supplements. Myself, I like to use a teaspoon of ground chia seeds in my salad dressing. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
CommonSenseRaw
()
Date: December 05, 2013 08:10AM Do we have to be Vegan?
The cow is not. It is like trying to fly to the moon bare hands Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 08:19AM by CommonSenseRaw. Re: The science of EPA fatty acids – vegans are in trouble with this, but we can fix the problem. Sorting out nonsense told to us by websites and raw food leaders.
Posted by:
The Sproutarian Man
()
Date: December 06, 2013 02:00AM Prana Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > For those of you who can't convert omega 3s to > DHA, there are vegan algae based DHA supplements. > Myself, I like to use a teaspoon of ground chia > seeds in my salad dressing. Yes, an EPA/DHA supplement could help. See, that's the thing with the vegan diet, it does look like various supplements need to be taken. The vegan diet is also high in soluable copper but low in soluable zinc and the highly regarded Dr Lawence Wilson is well qualitified to talk about the problems associated with this in clinical research. So it looks like we do have to address these inbalances, because if we don't it looks like serious problems can rear there head in the long term. So what do we do? There could be a couple of things we can do. If we can solve the tannin binding problem by taking bacterial supplements, maybe this could help break down tannin binding which would make zinc much more bioavailable, and if this is the case we could use chlorella to make the zinc absorption much better, and increased zinc levels will keep copper levels more in check. BUT...this is not the only thing that needs to be done to make this happen, folks on sprouted diets and eaters of various vegetables/nuts/seeds would also need to be taking a digestive enzyme supplement to break down the phytic acid IP5- 6's to at least 90% along with other various carbohydrates and protein inhibitors. But the big question is, will the bacterial supplement break down the tannins and various anti nutrients like oxalic acid in the stomach?...can't be sure, still research needs to be done and people to ask to be certain. If you don't take the chlorella and have various sprouts with a higher ratio of zinc - copper (eg, chlorella and lentils), then even a zinc supplement may be neccessary to address the copper excess. See, this is where things get crazy. Word is that Dr Ann Wigmore even recommended mainly cooked food near the end of her life. l can see why she could say this, but did she have knowldge of the power of enzyme and bacterial supplements back in her day?...probably not...probably didn't have enough good science available back then. I think times have moved on and that we can be raw vegans in the long term, but we need to supplement. Now, if these bacterial supplements do break down tannins and various other anti nutrients we could be in the clear, but that will not neccessarily apply to all diets...some diets will probably need supplemental zinc also. This goes on and on, it's crazy. l am determined to get to the bottom of this. Many pieces in the puzzle have been solved, but the question on what bacterial supplements actualy do in the stomach environment is a big missing piece, but l feel the answer to this question is not far away. All diets are different, but it looks like the sprout diet could potentially require the following supplements: * B12 * digestive enzymes * bacterial based supplement * zinc (possibly) * chlorella * vitamin D (if you live in certain areas and don't get sun exposure, and possibly if you shower each day) It's amazing how tannin binds the zinc in foods dramatically! Spirulina is 5 times higher in tannin than chlorella, but even at lower levels the tannin binds significantly with zinc and iron in foods, so we can't get the real benefit of the zinc and iron in the algaes until we are able to break down those tannins. DHA, there are vegan algae based DHA supplements. These will be talked about in great detail with science and clinical research to back up the statements. It's important not to speculate....got to give some hard facts so we know the score. I am none to thrilled about the thought of taking all these supplements, but if you don't eat the meat then our job is much much harder to get the important nutrients often lacking in vegan diets. Some scientists have gone as far to say that the zinc and iron in vegan foods is inorganic and that's why the assorption is so low....the vegan foods are supposed to lack certain enzyme functions that convert these inorganic zinc/iron to organic form, but it does look like we can convert those minerals when we introduce bacterial based enzymes, BUT, will a bacterial supplement do tjhis in the stomach before binding occurs and lowers bioavailability? WE need to talk about this ugly stuff so we can have a rosey raw future. www.thesproutarian.com Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
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