just wondering
for those of you who have a 80 10 10 diet

why would you choose a predominantly fruit ( sugar) diet over
a predominantly vegetable ( mineral) diet

i understand fruits have good things in them too
but i always thought that the sugars fed bacteria etc. and it wasn't nearly as rich in minerals as vegetables


but you know?

that is just my own personal opinion


i never bothered to study the graham diet cuz honestly, i was never that interested


to me, fruit is more of a "dessert" and not something i do every day

what is it that you guys know that i do not know concerning the predominantly fruit diet

so to repeat my question:

obviously fruits do indeed have a lot of good things in it, but why would you not have vegetables ( not much sugar and far more minerals) be the mainstay of your diet?


then when i see the type of "vegetables" that most 80 10 10 ers consume

its stuff that is usually not that chlorophyllic rich

seems more to be like lettuce, butter lettuce, celery but not deep rich green

is it to avoid oxalates?

just wondering

if it works for you, i am happy for you

that means that people truly are different

but i'm curious what the motivation is

Good thread, l will be very interested to read the replies.

www.thesproutarian.com

LAV, according to TSM your predominantly veggie diet isn't so hot either. Read his scathing views on fruits and veggies right here on this forum. So don't be holier than thou because there's always one holier than you...or thou

Hi, I eat more than 10% of calories from fat but get most of my calories from fruit. That said, I eat a mineral rich high dark green diet and I believe this is one of the reasons why I thrive versus the high-carb/ers who eat just to eat carbs and dont necessarily get enough greens/veggies/nutrition. I don't know what their answer would be.

I don't know if you want my reasoning or not, based on the premise of your question is not something I follow. As you-all know, I love my greens and advocate them endlessly. Very important for balance, minerals, teeth health (esp to chew them), healthy skin, etc. :p

Maybe I shouldn't answer because I am not on it but fruit is easily converted to energy. Lots of people have sweet tooths and rather than eating a bunch of cake and cookies and drinking soda, fruit satisfies that as well as digests easily. It is water-rich and provided many antioxidants and is considered more tasty/appealing than veggies.

Utopian Life

<<I don't know if you want my reasoning or not>>

I actually am interested in your reasoning. That is why I created this thread... so that I could understand the reasoning behind having fruit as the predominant base. There must be something to it that I am not aware of. Due to there being so many wars on this board concerning diet, i can understand your reluctance to discuss but honestly, I am being very sincere when I am asking for reasons/motivations behind this diet because if there is some gem of information that I could gain from it, I would be interested to learn something I didn't know before. I appreciate the responses thus far. There is obviously something I can't see. I would like my "blind spots" to be illuminated from a perspective different to mine. So far, everything I have learned on this forum has been a gain. the more information I have, the broader my choice range becomes.

so , to prana, fresh, anon 102, utopian, etc., what are YOUR motivations for making fruit your predominant base diet. How do you make it work for you? I would like to
see fruits differently. It does have a lot of vitamins. But if it is a base, there must be something to it than I am not capable of seeing now. I would like to hear an opinion other than my own ( cuz i already stated that in my initial thread).

I wish for this thread to be an illumination thread. No contention please. Save those posts for another thread . I just really want to know. I've been on this board for a while now and I just never knew. It actually blows my mind that I have not asked that question til now.

Temp, one thing that I found intriguing is the idea that perhaps a raw vegan diet can work if you either do Gabriel Cousens of lower fruit and higher fat intake or Dr. Graham's high fruit/low fat intake. The idea would be to not consume lots of sugars and fats together but other permutations would be acceptable.

Anon 102 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LAV, according to TSM your predominantly veggie
> diet isn't so hot either.

Haha, l was thinking that exact thought when l read the original post. There are many reasons why veggies don't cut it imo, but l will keep quiet and let the `fruit and veggie people' have their fun in this thread and give their views.

I will just say something quick before l button my lips: if post harvest purchasing of food shows potentially considerable losses of various nutrients studied (some show up to 80% loss of antioxidant phytochemicals such as glucosinolates which have been shown to have a far more powerful and longer lasting antioxidant effect over typical antioxidant vitamins), what about the losses of nutrients that haven't been studied?...and what about the oxidisation that occurs in fruits and veggies that are not fresh, and what about the SIGNIFICANT chlorophyll losses due to storage of veggies reported in the literature! You think you are getting all these wonderful green drinks?...well yes, somewhat, but you are getting a degraded and partially oxidised drink where the breakdown of chlorophyll into pheophorbide leads to "cell death" in the plants. While the eating of store bought plants are not the worst thing that can be done, l would prefer to be getting plants where "cell death" hasn't previously occured. Our natural instincts never tell us to pick fruit/veggies and then put them in storage for a week or months, our instincts tell us to eat the fresh food straight from the gardens, and when we live contrary to our natural instincts we invite trouble imo. I call this type of behaviour `un-natural hygiene'. As scientists say, the nutrient losses in plants is probably far worse than they think it is because many nutrient losses haven't been studied. It's hard enough for vegans to get good nutrition levels, but when you buy food you will be buying cell death, oxidised foods and potentially high nutrient losses...this doesn't make the job of a raw vegan any easy when he practises `un-natural hygiene'.

I haven't read the posts yet, but l am guessing that people favour high fruit diets because of calories and because they have this idea that fruit is the perfect food for man and is natural...well, something like that anyway.

When l first read the original post l also thought...this thread is going to be a war zone.

I'll keep quiet now and let the `fruit people' say their thing.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 09:48PM by The Sproutarian Man.

I don't think it's easy to say what our natural instincts are now as we live in a society that is ruled by materialistic things and surrounded by unnatural things (chemicals/pollution, cities, grocery stores, EMF's, etc.). If we were out in the wild Bear Grylls style, our natural instincts would kick it up a notch. For example, I doubt the natural instincts of the vegans on this board would refuse to eat an animal if they were faced with starving to death.

Yeah, the problem with this board is that you give your opinion and people feel entitled and pompous to reply with drama and name-calling with their experience as if that changes yours, it's so argumentative on here I find it unbelievable this forum still exists.

I think you have to start with the idea that your predominant calories are going to come from somewhere (assuming you don't want a restricted calorie diet or constant deficit - no offense to anyone on those). As a vegan, it's usually high percentage of fat foods (oils nuts seeds avocadoes coconut soy), grains, sweet fruits. I suppose legumes may work, too, if you ate a lot. I don't think grains are healthy, even "raw" soaked ones. I just find them nutritionally inferior to fruits and veggies and they have many imbalances and problems associated with them.

My main reasons for being raw are
reduce inflammation
reduce acidity
enhance vitamin and mineral intake
enhance energy
promote healing and skin health
emotional health
reduce bloating (which may go with inflammation, I don't know)
quick digestion/ease of digestion



I have found through experimentation that eating more fruit, I feel well, energized, happy, and I'm eating foods I'm attracted to by sight. I don't need Dr. Graham's book for this and I don't follow 80/10/10. I eat more like 15-20% of calories from fat.
I notice that the more fat I eat, getting up into 25% of calories from fat or more, the less energetic I feel. In fact, it's almost like flu-like or cold-like symptoms wherein I need to take a nap and I get a mucousy throat (grains also cause this). My skin looks duller the next day after eating a higher-fat meal. My workouts suffer. It's like my body is heavier, less efficient. The digestion takes hours and hours and sometimes I have burps and can feel the acidity. I get bloated and sometimes my ab muscles are temporarily masked (until I eat lower-fat foods for a day again, etc.)

So for the most energy, for the most beauty, for happiness, for nutrition and hydration, I eat fruits and vegetables. I don't think I eat more fruit than vegetables if you put everything I eat in a day in the same size bowl side by side. I think the veggies in volume (not weight) would match the fruit, but not by calories. So if you are thinking that I eat 2 cups of fruit per 1 cup of veggies, that's not correct. I am known to eat a salad-spinner size kale, collards, spinach, dandelion, chard, etc. salad at night and then some.

Hope that helps.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> My main reasons for being raw are

> reduce acidity

???

You mean as in an alkaline diet?

Soon l post medical and scientific evidence that there is no such thing as an alkaline diet. In fact, if you gravitate towards the `so called' alkaline diet you can risk ended up with disease caused by nutritional deficiencies.

The main alkalisers of the body are breathing and the kidney's excretion of acids. Very rarely will acidity be an issue. Food can't bring on alkalinity because it requires to be acidic during digestion. Full sprectrum nutrition is of utmost importance, but this will be discussed fully another day.

I have 89 pages of notes on this issue backed up with medical links and literature that completely busts the alkaline/acid diet theory. I am currently working on producing a detailed online paper which leaves one in no doubt that the alkaline diet theory started by Wachman in 1968 was complete and utter poppycock. Again, there is no such thing as an alkaline diet....cola won't cause acidity, meat won't cause acidity, and neither will any cooked foods.

If a fancy theory is repeated often enough people begin to view it as a `fact'. We have David Wolfe, Dr Clement, Dr Jubb, Viktoras and many many others still spreading this nonsense talk, but all they need to do is read the recent literature and learn basic medical facts on the body and they will discover how absurd the idea is. I recall the science literature recently (2012) went as far to completely bust this theory also.


> enhance vitamin and mineral intake


a very interesting thing, so is the inflammation issue.


> reduce bloating (which may go with inflammation, I
> don't know)

another interesting thing.


> quick digestion/ease of digestion

very interesting to read this from raw food folks, and a very interesting insight into your views overall.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2014 12:47AM by The Sproutarian Man.

I've posted this a few times but it seems to be time to post it again...

"The Alkaline Myth & Hype"

[www.youtube.com]

Good Suez, but lets take it further, because as raw vegans we are dreamers and the kings/queens of the poppycock talk, it's in our blood. Lets do a BIG write-up, and lets produce the studies and medical literature to debunk every form of alkaline/acid diet poppycock so people can see it for themselves.

James does an excellent basic intro, but lets take it all the way and provide the details can people can easily look them up.

I partially retired from raw food nonsense 2 years ago, but last week l officially resigned from ALL raw food nonsense because all it is is pure poppycock. Anything said by raw food vegans as a fact MUST be verified now. We can still have our fun and state our fancy theories, but l am NOT accepting anymore fairy tales from raw vegans.

Electromagnetic frequencies? I am throwing it out! Sprouts being 30 times as nutritious? I am throwing that out too. (Thanks Suez and Temp for waking me up) I used to love that type of talk, but now it's time to grow up and be a man and talk the proper talk. I've asked Dr Hunt and various people to confirm things, but no-one seems to be able to.

Who are some of the biggest talkers of high grade poppycock in the world? The freemen and the raw food vegans of course. Run into a raw food vegan and the chances are that they will indulge in massive amounts of high quality poppycock, why?...because it sounds sooo good. Well...it's time those days come to an end, and it's time to get our of the 1960's thinking in terms of nutrition. Lets start getting serious and ditch the fairytales once and for all.

Raw food vegan leaders would make excellent writers for children's fairytales. Maybe they should concentrate on that...l might contact Doug, David, Viktoras, and Brian and make the suggestion.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2014 02:13AM by The Sproutarian Man.

"We humans can think our way around such problems without consuming solid or liquid filth, IMO."

That's the thing though, urine isn't filth, it contains many beneficial properties... hormones, nutrients, enzymes, and stimulates a cleansing effect on the body, and produces antibodies.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "We humans can think our way around such problems
> without consuming solid or liquid filth, IMO."
>
> That's the thing though, urine isn't filth, it
> contains many beneficial properties... hormones,
> nutrients, enzymes, and stimulates a cleansing
> effect on the body, and produces antibodies.


Well if it makes you feel better just exchange the word filth with compost. That's all I'll concede to.

> why would you choose a predominantly fruit ( sugar) diet over
a predominantly vegetable ( mineral) diet


If one accepts
(1) the following characteristics of a proper food:
- raw better than cooked
- fresh better than dried
- whole better than blended or juiced
- ripe better than not
- tasty better than not


(it will exclude juicing, dehydrating, cooking, urine, grasses, seaweeds, etc)

(2) the fact that many have found high fat to be problematic

(3)the obvious caloric difference between fruits and veg

then it is simply a logical progression that leads to fruit predominating

due to caloric needs.



> i understand fruits have good things in them too
but i always thought that the sugars fed bacteria etc. and it wasn't nearly as rich in minerals as vegetables

(funny how apes are smarter than humans. they eat fruits and veggies and other misc stuff. when fruit is available they predominate in fruit , when it's not , they don't. none of this endless pontificating, urine drinking and food modification and nutrient obsession)

sugars feed everything.
and sugars are in vegetables.
no matter what you eat, you've got "sugar".
just because fruit is higher in "sugar" doesn't mean anything.
we need enough sugar some way or another.


> to me, fruit is more of a "dessert" and not something i do every day

I don't know how you can eat fresh raw whole foods without predominating in fruit. either you're gonna juice or cook or dehydrate, all of which are not optimal.


> obviously fruits do indeed have a lot of good things in it, but why would you not have vegetables ( not much sugar and far more minerals) be the mainstay of your diet?

calories

> then when i see the type of "vegetables" that most 80 10 10 ers consume
its stuff that is usually not that chlorophyllic rich

you presume that we need a certain amount of chlorophyll.
your presumption is without any basis as far as being able to actually quantify it.

> seems more to be like lettuce, butter lettuce, celery but not deep rich green is it to avoid oxalates?

tastes better.


> if it works for you, i am happy for you
that means that people truly are different

just because people eat different diets does NOT mean that "people are different" (digestive system wise).

>but i'm curious what the motivation is

why don't you tell me how you eat an all raw fresh whole diet WITHOUT predominating in fruit and are not sitting on the couch? alterations to food tend to have negative impact. insufficient fruit leads to cooked or juicing or inadequate caloric intake.

hmmm... nice to get differing point of views from 80 10 10 ers

thanks.. that IS a perspective that contrasts with mine

i'm glad


thanks to those who do 80 10 10 and contributed

i'd like to ask a favor that people who are NOT on 80 10 10
to absolutely NOT contribute to this thread

the reason being that there has been too much contention in the past

and my question IS to find out what is the point of view of 80 10 10 ers, EXCLUSIVELY and NOT the point of view of those who are not on it ( i would appreciate those views on a SEPARATE thread if u feel like responding to this thread, do so on a DIFFERENT self created thread)



hence, this thread will be SOLELY placed to get the views of those who are on 80 10 10

so, so far, i am getting that the point of view is

1. quick form of energy
2. tastes better
3. more calories
4. feel better with less fat and more fruit

and of course, it is obvious that fruit has its base of nutrients as well

any others?

what about prana, panchito, and others?

it seems like there have been so many wars but no one ever asked the 80 10 10 ers
why they favor what they do

there is always a reason

and i'm finally getting some answers

appreciated

let's continue this thread

if you feel like debating the 80 10 10

DON'T

let this be a one way street thread

where ONLY the 80 10 10 ers get to have their say

and no rebuttals, parrying or anything else

like a telephone "conversation" where one person is doing all the talking

and the other person is just LISTENING

thank you in advance

it is time for me to listen

thanks for giving me the opportunity to do so



a

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i'd like to ask a favor that people who are NOT
> on 80 10 10
> to absolutely NOT contribute to this thread


Who the eff are you to la la la over this whole forum with irrelevant topics and silly comments and then request everyone else except your specially invited posters to stay away from your special thread, apparently the only serious thread in your mind, which MUST stay on topic because YOU really want to know something so no one else is allowed?!

I read it earlier today and l will get back to it soon.

Regards: The Sproutarian.

"If one accepts
(1) the following characteristics of a proper food:
- raw better than cooked
- fresh better than dried
- whole better than blended or juiced
- ripe better than not
- tasty better than not"

Fresh sprouts and wheatgrass are raw and a lot more fresh than store-bought fruit. Why would anyone accept the falsity that whole is better than juiced? One can juice pounds of vegetables or sprouts, absorbing 100% of that nutrition in a short amount of time without putting the burden of digestion on the body.

"sugars feed everything.
and sugars are in vegetables.
no matter what you eat, you've got "sugar".
just because fruit is higher in "sugar" doesn't mean anything.
we need enough sugar some way or another."

Vegetables contain very little sugar, fruit contains high amounts of sugar.. and excess sugar in the blood is what causes damage. So yeah, higher sugar means a lot.

"you presume that we need a certain amount of chlorophyll."

We don't need it to live, but its health benefits can help us live longer.


Please tell me where you get enough zinc, iron, EPA/DHA, iodine, and B12 on this high-fruit diet. I challenge anyone on a fruitarian type diet to get a SpectraCell test and make it public... they would never do it, it would reveal how disastrous their diet is nutritionally wise.

>1. quick form of energy
>2. tastes better
>3. more calories
>4. feel better with less fat and more fruit


not to be picky, but I would say that with respect to item 1,
no, not a quick form of energy. but maybe it depends on what you mean.

to me, energy or alertness is more a function of proper rest, abstention from energy depleting substances.

like adding gas to your gas tank does not make you go faster, it just fuels the body up to do what it normally does.

When I started raw in Nov 2006 I found myself naturally gravitating towards high fruit. Veggies and sprouts do not taste as good as fruits and do not supply enough calories. However, I eat a wide array of veggies and sprouts and wild plants and leaves and flowers. They just don't make up a big portion of my calories each day because they are caloric challenged . Fruit is the greatest! Fruit for the win!

ps I do not concern myself,in the least, with nutrients.

>Fresh sprouts and wheatgrass are raw and a lot more fresh than store-bought fruit.

they are. yet I find that store bought is sufficiently fresh.


sprouts and wheatgrass have drawbacks to me as far as taste , chewability and necessity of juicing. those drawbacks do not exist with the veg I eat.
clearly these are not drawbacks to you as you've said a few times.


>Why would anyone accept the falsity that whole is better than juiced?

silly mother nature is missing out.


>One can juice pounds of vegetables or sprouts, absorbing 100% of that nutrition in a short amount of time without putting the burden of digestion on the body.

100% ? really?
you are clearly in the more is better club. I am not.
I have no problem with you enjoying the benefits of your club.

I do not think that digestion is a burden that should be eliminated.


>Vegetables contain very little sugar, fruit contains high amounts of sugar.. and excess sugar in the blood is what causes damage. So yeah, higher sugar means a lot.

only in excess. the problem with you and the fruit paranoia police is that you presume that eating fruit automatically leads to excess. and don't refer me to clement's "science" ok?


>We don't need it to live, but its health benefits can help us live longer.

you will be proving that I presume? just like you want me to prove my assertions with spectracell?

>Please tell me where you get enough zinc, iron, EPA/DHA, iodine, and B12 on this high-fruit diet. I challenge anyone on a fruitarian type diet to get a SpectraCell test and make it public... they would never do it, it would reveal how disastrous their diet is nutritionally wise.

and yet for 30 years - I have no symptoms, high energy, and good blood tests, and yet you can't accept that. If I were to get a spectracell test you STILL wouldn't believe it. you would come up with another test, or say I faked the test, or whatever.

La Veronique, I have no problem ignoring the people who don't want to respect you and answer the question at hand.

I wanted to say, as well, that if a high-veggie/lower fruit diet is working for you, I don't think any of us respectful individuals here would tell you you are "wrong" and that there is something 'wrong' with what you're doing. Keep it up!

Perhaps it's because many raw foodists struggle to get in enough calories when they are eating primarily vegetables -- so they go over the top and consume lots of fruit, believing that all this sugar won't do them any harm. Just because some people are staying "lean" on a high fruit diet, doesn't mean it's the most optimal. I tend to focus more on vegetables and then eat fruit in moderate amounts. Like 1 apple, 1 banana, 1 kiwi, and a few handfuls of different berries. That's in addition to my 700 grams a day of mixed vegetables with extra virgin olive oil for my main meal. The rest of the day I'll have some nuts, avocado, maybe even oatmeal, dark chocolate or whatever... I'm about 70% raw.

Fat helps absorb the nutrients in your diet, so I don't see why it's so feared by some people. Healthy fats are fine, and even reduce the risk of disease- especially extra virgin olive oil. A study was just published recently showing that EVOO dramatically lowered the risk of cardiovascular disease for those at high risk...

The problem is people simplify things too much. And there's a HUGE amount of misunderstanding even about the basics of human biology.

There's plenty of evidence showing that it's vegetables that lower the risk of disease more dramatically than fruits. Most fruit has a very modest impact.

People at high risk for cardiovascular disease do better with higher extra virgin olive oil consumption
During follow-up, 277 cardiovascular events and 323 deaths occurred. Participants in the highest energy-adjusted tertile of baseline total olive oil and extra-virgin olive oil consumption had 35% (HR: 0.65; 95% CI: 0.47 to 0.89) and 39% (HR: 0.61; 95% CI: 0.44 to 0.85) cardiovascular disease risk reduction, respectively, compared to the reference. Higher baseline total olive oil consumption was associated with 48% (HR: 0.52; 95% CI: 0.29 to 0.93) reduced risk of cardiovascular mortality. For each 10 g/d increase in extra-virgin olive oil consumption, cardiovascular disease and mortality risk decreased by 10% and 7%, respectively.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

-------------------------------------------
My blog: [www.crvitality.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2014 06:54PM by mattscr.

"and yet for 30 years - I have no symptoms, high energy, and good blood tests, and yet you can't accept that. If I were to get a spectracell test you STILL wouldn't believe it. you would come up with another test, or say I faked the test, or whatever."

No symptoms =/= no deficiency... and blood tests can be very misleading, it doesn't tell you what you are absorbing into your cells. And yes, if you eat mainly fruit and are claiming to have sufficient levels of all nutrients, you are lying. Which fruits are you eating that are providing you with iron, zinc, EPA/DHA, iodine, and B12?

"sprouts and wheatgrass have drawbacks to me as far as taste , chewability and necessity of juicing. those drawbacks do not exist with the veg I eat.
clearly these are not drawbacks to you as you've said a few times."

You don't need to juice sprouts, only wheatgrass. No, they are not drawbacks unless you're stuck in the outdated, ignorant, and cultish Natural Hygiene mentality.

"silly mother nature is missing out."

Mother nature doesn't use computers, either, guess that means they are useless.

"you will be proving that I presume? just like you want me to prove my assertions with spectracell?"

Well let's see... chlorophyll cleans the blood, detoxifies the body, and is anti-inflammatory/anti-bacterial among others. All of those can help you live longer.

"I do not think that digestion is a burden that should be eliminated."

Neither do I, but juicing still has its tremendous health benefits. Digestion takes energy away from the body. If your food, calorie for calorie, has more phytochemicals, enzymes, amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc... it is better than food with inferior levels. RDA's for nutrients are bare minimum's, not for optimal levels of health.

Suez,

<<Who the eff are you to la la la over this whole forum with irrelevant topics and silly comments and then request everyone else except your specially invited posters to stay away from your special thread, apparently the only serious thread in your mind, which MUST stay on topic because YOU really want to know something so no one else is allowed?!>>

It is simply a request. Like, all requests, the intended people have the right to oblige it or ignore it. There is a speed limit on freeways. Some people choose to drive 120 mph because they simply do not care running the risk of colliding with other people. That is their choice. You have the right to ignore my request. I won't stop you. I'm not being paid a salary to give out tickets. Enjoy your drive.

anon 102

<<When I started raw in Nov 2006 I found myself naturally gravitating towards high fruit. Veggies and sprouts do not taste as good as fruits and do not supply enough calories. However, I eat a wide array of veggies and sprouts and wild plants and leaves and flowers. They just don't make up a big portion of my calories each day because they are caloric challenged smiling smiley. Fruit is the greatest! Fruit for the win! smiling smiley

okay so i can see here that taste and calories is a crucial factor in your diet
also i was ignorant that 80 10 10 ers , like Utopian and yourself also
have your own game plan when it comes to non fruit foods and have a greater variety of greens etc. than I was aware of

Utopian life

<< Hi, I eat more than 10% of calories from fat but get most of my calories from fruit. That said, I eat a mineral rich high dark green diet and I believe this is one of the reasons why I thrive versus the high-carb/ers who eat just to eat carbs and dont necessarily get enough greens/veggies/nutrition. I don't know what their answer would be. >>

i see
so it looks like you get plenty of minerals too
thanks for illuminating me to the vast range of 80 10 10 and one of the forms it can take

fresh

i never considered the whole food paradigm in the truest sense
i always took blending and juicing for granted
as simply part of my lifestyle
it is interesting to ponder that paradigm more closely
thanks for contributing