Hey all.

I'm having some financial troubles, and have been pondering added fermented veggies as a staple.

I've converted to a fruit-based diet with occational small amounts of leafy greens or other veggies... once in while.

I have trouble digesting anything else, but I've heard that fermented veggies makes them easier to digest. I can buy carrots, beets, cabbage and such very inexpensively, and could then ferment them with some sea veggies. Would that be easy to handle after being near-fruitarian?

I've read tons of literature on the negatives of ferments. There is a section called Fermented Foods in rawfoodexplained.com.

As a staple, the veggies that go into ferments don't have that many calories. Are you looking to increase your intake of greens via the ferments? Are you having difficulty digesting lettuce and celery?

I bought some sauerkraut from Rejuvenative Foods that was salt free. I haven't been able to eat more than a 1/4 inch of the kraut, as it is very bitter/acidic for me. I am hesistant to buy any ferments that have salt in them, although I imagine they would be much easier to eat.

I'd love to hear your experience of them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2007 07:21AM by Bryan.

Bryan,

not to seem like I am criticizing your integrity on yet another issue, but why would you buy fermented cabbage if rawfoodexplained specifically outlines how even fermented foods not containing additives like salt can have have no positive function in the body.

"T.C. Fry wrote about this food in 1981: "Sauerkraut is indigestible. The acetic acid (vinegar) that results from its bacterial decomposition is damaging to our digestive tract and inhibits the digestion and utilization of foods eaten with it. It is in the same class as all rotted foods."

and later in regards to raw sauerkraut in the Q and A:
"If there's no benefit to fermented foods, why go to all the trouble of adulterating your food?"

so really, i'm not trying to start an argument, I am just curious because I am a believer in some ways of Rejuvenative Foods's kim chee, live salads etc...

the rawfoodexplained articles in some way I think does a good job of engaging the 'myth' of adding healthful bacteria (after reading it I think I agree that this is probably a myth)

to me the kim chees and live salads contain vegetables that should not be eaten raw (like beets, daikon, cabbage) and others that can but personally I find unappetizing like regular radishes. I guess one could have the opinion that these foods are unecessary. to me if one believes otherwise its better to eat them fermented rather than raw, but the argument about improving digestion I think seems less plausible to me after reading rawfoodexplained.

anaken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan,
>
> not to seem like I am criticizing your integrity
> on yet another issue, but why would you buy
> fermented cabbage if rawfoodexplained specifically
> outlines how even fermented foods not containing
> additives like salt can have have no positive
> function in the body.

Why shouldn't he?

Don't believe ANYTHING YOU READ! Find out for yourself. Bryan did, and he seems to have confirmed, at least for him, what he had been reading. Kudos to Bryan for that.

So, why would you blindly believe that website?

> and later in regards to raw sauerkraut in the Q
> and A:
> "If there's no benefit to fermented foods, why go
> to all the trouble of adulterating your food?"

Because it's a method of preserving your food.......
(I'm ignoring the fact that the above quoted statement is incorrect and loaded to put fermented foods in a bad light).

> to me the kim chees and live salads contain
> vegetables that should not be eaten raw (like
> beets, daikon, cabbage) and others that can but
> personally I find unappetizing like regular
> radishes.

I have no problem eating beets, daikon and cabbage raw, I do it all the time without any negative side effects. As for regular radishes, you are talking about one of my favourite vegetables there!

Anyway, Anaken, becareful when reading website, they should not be blindly believed, finding out for yourself is the most important thing.

Cheers,
Ian.

How do you ferment something without salt?? I thought the whole point of the salt was to keep pathogenic bacteria at bay. Kim Chee uses hot spices instead of salt but originally (before the Portugal or Spain, I forget which, introduced hot peppers) it used salt.

You either use something else to supress the pathogenic bacteria, or you ferment quick enough that the pathogenic bacteria doesn't form (normally done using some sort of starter culture).

I'm not sure about your Kim Chee comments, I don't recall Portugal and Spain being involved in Kim Chee invention/production (at least not traditionally anyway).

Ian.

sodoffsocks, I in no way believe everything I read. especially not that site. I was saying it was in a sense a contradiction since he was recomending the article.

read again what I wrote. does it in any way seem like I was blindly praising the article?

rawfoodexplained although it is comppehensive (in particular I found this article an informative POINT OF VIEW) has at its fundamentals a NH philosophy that the idea that anything you can't eat as a mono meal is not a food and therefore not healthy and its inverse that the only thing that is healthy are foods that can be eaten as mono meals - it pops up time and time again - and to me this is not only false, its in contradiction to its own ideology.

finding out for yourself of course is a good method. this I hear time and time again also that "this makes me feel fine and therefore it is healthy" and yet they are the same people who make judgements on just about everything else other then what they are doing. not to mention most people on any diet would feel the same way about their diets "coffee helps me digest food" or whatever bs.

certain vegetables arn't to be eaten raw, I think thats a pretty much universally accepted idea in all raw communities.

anaken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sodoffsocks, I in no way believe everything I
> read. especially not that site. I was saying it
> was in a sense a contradiction since he was
> recomending the article.

Sounds like Bryan has prefectly health ability to think for himself. That's what science is effectively about, try to contradict your theories and beliefs, becase you can't proove them. Not sure why it would bother you.

> read again what I wrote. does it in any way seem
> like I was blindly praising the article?

The internet isn't always the easiest media to communication on and I can accept that I could well have gotten the wrong impression.. To answer your question, yes a little. At least you seemed more accepting of it than Bryan.

> certain vegetables arn't to be eaten raw, I think
> thats a pretty much universally accepted idea in
> all raw communities.

Potatoes, yes, but the stuff you listed is prefectly ok to eat raw.

Of course, everybody is different, I don't eat celeray and cucumbers (horrible horrible things, no place in my diet), but that's definately not universally accepted (just like your claims).

Cheers,
Ian.

1.) that isn't at all what science is about

celeray and cucumbers (horrible horrible things, no place in my diet),
?????

2.) celery and cucumbers are staples for pretty much anyone clued in enough to know that far more vegetables cannot be eaten raw than can. although beets and cabbage juiced or eaten maybe in very small quanities might represent the more acceptable side of the spectrum. Most people agree that most vegetables/fruits that are commonly cooked by cooked fooders (eggplant, green beans, root vegetables, most breeds of corn, broccoli) can't or shouldn't be eaten raw.

Well, I'm glad I'm not one of "most people" or one of the "anyone clued in enough" crowd.

Ian.

anaken,

My exploration of my life and process involves having my own experience, and not taking someone else's word as truth. As a SAD eater, I enjoyed krauts and kim chee and beer and vinegar and yogurt and cheese and other ferments. But I had also read how ferments were unhealthy for exactly the reasons written in rawfoodexplained.

So I decided to have my experience. The Rejuvenative company is a high integrity raw company, at least from my previous experience of eating their super expensive but super delicious almond butter. So I tried the kraut. And it didn't feel good to me.

I went to Thailand about a year ago, and a raw chef there made me a dessert of raw cacao. I've read about the poisonous nature of raw cacao, and I knew what was written about the stimulating nature of the food. But the chef was excited about sharing his discovery with me, and I was willing to have my experience of cacao. I did enjoy the high I got from it, but I also felt the downside of the cleansing of cacao from my body. So net message I got was that it was fun, but there is a price to be paid. The last time I went to Cafe Gratitude I bought a raw fudge bar with raw cacao. Again, it was fun, but there was a price to be paid with the detox. I am unwilling to control myself out of my experiences and my lessons. With raw cacao, I don't consider it part of my diet, but have indulged 4 times thus far over the last year. And I am conscious that there is a price to be paid if I am going to indulge.

And when I am feeling the pain of the "price", I don't allow myself to judge myself for what I did. I remind myself that I made my choice consciously, and that part of the agreement of eating the food was to celebrate the consequences. So I celebrate.

Bryan, what does it look like for you to celebrate in that place?

Love,
Uma

no arguments there.


I guess my impression from what you wrote first was you didn't find them palatable but you found a reason to include them in your diet. this looks like this is not the case. I am reconsidering not using them because of weighing the theories avalaible vs. my almost non-existant desire to actually eat them independent of such reasons I originally loaded them with.

that isn't the same as taking someones word as truth. but we can't always go by our experiences. someone experiencing detox after starting a healtier lifestyle might not experience that as something healthful unless informed of such. much like it says about yogurt, that it in no way assists with digestion: "You don't digest a fermented food—you can only quickly eliminate it." I don't think this would be information someone might acquire by observing their own experience.

Uma,

Here is my process around my lessons. I look to not beat myself up over it. I remind myself that I am not a victim, that I made a choice that seemed to be a good idea at the time. I don't allow my discomforts of my past decisions to affect my current now. I feel the pain as much as I can so that the next time, I might be motivated try something different. And if I do talk about the experience I see if I can express it in a way such that my words express the gift of the lesson of the experience, rather than seeing the experience as a mistake I made.

well said

I took these photos of someone making sauerkraut , if you were interested

[new.photos.yahoo.com]

I do not eat it, sometimes I have cheated/binged on some kim chee..it makes my tummy slummy

By the way I ate eggplant while it was still attached to the plant once. I was hungry and with a friend. it was fun and delish.

I have eaten it dehydrated also, and it was sooo good, it was soft and juicy.
my friend who stayed with me made this , she dehydrated eggplants 6 hours with other stuff and mixed some pine nuts with it for the white stuff. This was 3 years ago.



Sorry if I maundered about..I try to stay close on topic.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2007 05:02AM by coconutcream.

you can consume lots of things, I could very well be wrong about eggplant, but that doesn't contradict that certain vegetables should be eaten only when cooked or not at all. it would be similar to eating under-ripe fruit. yes you can put it in your mouth and eat it, it might be more difficult to assimilate (least harmful scenario) or it might be damaging to the body. I'm pretty sure eating a bunch of raw broccoli fits in the latter category, as would eating a sizable quantity of raw turnips or beets.

anaken I see what you are saying.. I do.. Everybody speaks truth..

I would not eat a head of lettuce or kale by itself.

Does that make it bad?

My pet rats eat everything. they do not know, I think when we are surviving in the wild and are hungry we will eat anything..

but I agree, is it good for us, who knows..

Anaken why do you think that beets, daikon and cabbage should not be eaten raw?

Bryan why do you say that it is the cleansing effect of the raw cacao that makes you feel bad? I would think that it is the "crash" from the high of the theobromine?

sodoffsocks, Kim Chee apparently was originally made with salt as the pickling medium but when western trades introduced chili peppers they started using tem instead of salt.

Suvine: omg that eggplant dish looks so yummy -- at first I was like "hey how can that picture of a juicy steak or burger with melted cheese be allowed on this site!?!"

Love,
Uma

Bryan, this is ...ly cool of you. It's so ....

"I feel the pain as much as I can so that the next time, I might be motivated try something different."

Right on.

I don't do this enough. But starting the very next time I make a choice that leads to pain. Not only food choices, but any choice.

Of course, none of us are victims. The word "force" is also mistaken. Nobody can force us to do anything. We all make our own choices. You can be tied up and force-fed, but who is it that chews and swallows?!



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

This is an interesting, and for me a very useful thread. I am now in South Korea, eating quite a bit of kimchi. I haven't noticed anything detrimental from it. I quite like it. But I also realize that I'm not reading the signals as closely as would be ideal.

Going to help make some kimchi next week!

Bryan, this is ...ly cool of you. It's so ....

"I feel the pain as much as I can so that the next time, I might be motivated try something different."

Right on.

I don't do this enough. But starting the very next time I make a choice that leads to pain. Not only food choices, but any choice.

Of course, none of us are victims. The word "force" is also mistaken. Nobody can force us to do anything. We all make our own choices. You can be tied up and force-fed, but who is it that chews and swallows?!



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha