Anyone no of any good articles about protein in a raw diet??? And while i'm at it... any about Salt???

luv laugh and dream

Most important thing about protein is that it must be complete and balanced, which means you need to be getting all essential amino acids in balanced proportion.

This is the problem for vegans because there are very few foods which are the source of complete protein, most of the time you have to combine different foods in order to get all amino acids in right proportions. By contrast non-vegans can just eat a piece of meat and they are good to go.

Sources of complete protein for vegans include soya beans, buckwheat and hemp. Check wikipedia articles on protein and complete protein, lots of good info.

This is a sticky point, where do you get your protein??? Actually, many vegies have all the essintial amino acids, even tomatoes. I went back to research the very early studies when scientists were finding out what food was made of. I think it was around 1910ish, but for some reason....these early studies aren't generally available. Could it be that the 'meat and dairy' industries have supressed this info???

However, Chat has made a point of adding...'in order to get all the amino acids IN RIGHT PROPORTIONS'. So, perhaps that's the rub, and I'd have to go search for those studies to find out what proportions these vegies with complete protein have in them.

After all, where do rhinoceros, elephants, hippopotamus, horses and bulls get their protein??? Ok, they do eat alot, but just the same, if there's no complete protein then it won't matter how much they eat, they still won't get complete protein.......

Cheers, jalan

luvyuu,

Haven't come across any recent articles online(or in hardcopy) that discuss raw protein or salt bioavailability in scientific terms, but I believe Becoming Raw, by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina may have data cited. I know pborst has mentioned it as being a very exacting examination of the science behind raw veganism in other threads. Good luck with your search

I always liked this little video
[www.youtube.com]

The incomplete proteins thing is a myth. All plant foods have some amino acids, you just may be getting less than the full amount. It's limited by the least amino acid which usually is either methionine or lysine for vegans. But, that said, if you eat enough of good raw protein rich food, it shouldn't be a problem. Some good sources of raw protein.

1 1 cup of kale juice, 7 grams protein, 70 calories
2 1 cup of lentil sprouts, 7 grams protein, 80 calories
3 1 cup of pea sprouts, 11 grams protein, 154 calories
4 2 Tbsp of flax seed (whole) 4 grams protein, 110 calories
5 1 cup of yellow corn, 5 gram protein, 132 calories

source: Becoming Raw. by Vesanto Melina and Brenda Davis. I believe every raw vegan should have a copy to stay out of harms way. Not that you have to eat my top 5, but if you did, you would have eaten 34 grams of raw vegan protein in 546 calories. Now, you get additional protein in every piece of fruit, and leafy green you eat. But selecting among the top 5 is a good way to make sure you aren't short. Some 8-1-1 er get there a different way with different math, eating 3000 calories per day plus. I agree that's another way to do it. Question is, are you going to eat that many calories? If not, the math doesn't work. I'm suggesting you hedge your bets, look at the numbers and how you live and make your best move! The rest is up to you.

Paul

caveats.

you have to crush the flax seeds to get the nutrition, blender or coffee grinder. That source was actually USDA. Note that the usual protein recommendations are like 50 to 70 grams per day, they include a "safety factor" which basically just a blind guess to cover additional protein needy folks. 25 to 35 grams of protein a day is enough for adults. Source: Vegetarian Nutrition per Meryvyn Hardinage, M.D. PhD School of Public Health, Loma Linda University, in the Prologue. How many Rice Dieters (vegan , not raw) completed their tenure without animal products? Many.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2012 03:06PM by pborst.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> luvyuu,
>
> Haven't come across any recent articles online(or
> in hardcopy) that discuss raw protein or salt
> bioavailability in scientific terms, but I believe
> Becoming Raw, by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina
> may have data cited. I know pborst has mentioned
> it as being a very exacting examination of the
> science behind raw veganism in other threads.
> Good luck with your search

You were reading my mind. Thanks Tamara.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The incomplete proteins thing is a myth. All
> plant foods have some amino acids, you just may be
> getting less than the full amount. It's limited
> by the least amino acid which usually is either
> methionine or lysine for vegans.


So what exactly is the myth?

the myth is the idea proffered and repeated that certain plant foods are "absent" certain amino acids. There may be "limiting" amino acids, e.g. lysine in grains or methionine in beans, but most plant foods contain a complete set of amino acids,albeit it with some limitation, which may actually be a good thing. Plant foods with too complete an amino acid profile, may when concentrated and processed stimulate cancer growth, thing soybean protein isolates.

Protein can become too much of a good thing!

The myth as far as i know is about the notion that one must consume a complete protein at each meal(which is a good thing) but it is not needed. Its about the quality of amino acids you consume over the day not at one meal, although it is preferred if the protein is complete.

I think the problem comes when people look at protein in terms of grams. 1 banana usually equals around 1g of protein, so all the average person would need to do was consume 30-70 bananas etc. Which is wrong, the quality of amino acids in a banana whilst impressive for a fruit, isn't all that impressive in terms of protein quality.

As always a mix and variety of foods is the healthy way to go about ensuring a broad spectrum of different amino acid profiles are consumed. Which is another reason why restrictive diets often run into trouble long term.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2012 05:24PM by powerlifer.

I agree with Chris's assessment. Beyond that, some people as knowledgeable as Walter Willett keep talking about "incomplete proteins" among plant proteins. That's nonsense. Every plant protein, ttbomk, has a complete set of amino acid with some that could "limit" absorption" but are not incomplete which connotes missing an amino acid. At the end of the day, most studies on vegans show they have plenty of protein but less cancer than omnivores. They are thinner, lower cholesterol, less diabetes, high blood pressures, but we keep getting questions about protein?? Go figure. B-12 is a legitimate concern. As long as you eat enough calories and vary your diet, protein isn't. imho.

Paul

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the myth is the idea proffered and repeated that
> certain plant foods are "absent" certain amino
> acids. There may be "limiting" amino acids, e.g.
> lysine in grains or methionine in beans, but most
> plant foods contain a complete set of amino
> acids,albeit it with some limitation, which may
> actually be a good thing. Plant foods with too
> complete an amino acid profile, may when
> concentrated and processed stimulate cancer
> growth, thing soybean protein isolates.
>
> Protein can become too much of a good thing!


Please re-read your message, you are contradicting yourself at every step, bless

Most vegetable sources of protein are incomplete/imbalanced, that is, they contain less than 9 essential amino acids or contain some of them in insufficient quantity. This is not a myth, this is a fact: Young VR, Pellett PL (1994) "Plant proteins in relation to human protein and amino acid nutrition" AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 59 (5 Suppl).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2012 09:51PM by chat.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The myth as far as i know is about the notion that
> one must consume a complete protein at each
> meal(which is a good thing) but it is not needed.
> Its about the quality of amino acids you consume
> over the day not at one meal, although it is
> preferred if the protein is complete.


This is absolutely true. I'm interested whether we should be worried about getting complete protein over the day. What if we take care to get complete protein over say a week, would this be optimal?

We cant even escape this protein nonsense on a raw board?

I just did the following...For a
70kg man

I compared the nutritional requirements
At the amino acid level
Of a diet of solely bananas
At the proper caloric level
Using reputable sources.

EVERY amino acid reqt was met

but I dont eat that much!
But I dont eat bananas!
But,butt,but!

instead of making unsupported statements why not monitor symptoms?
is anyone having symptoms of protein deficiency?

do you know what the symptoms are?

I can tell you that the symptoms are not I wanna have some meat, or is raw diet is hard,so that means I am low in protein, or I lost weight that means I am low in protein.

Funny, kid and I were watching a cartoon today and there was a choice of 3 foods with the question posed "which has lots of protein?". Both of us chose spinach instead of meatballs, ha ha ha.


Here's a little info...

[www.incrediblesmoothies.com]

chat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By contrast non-vegans can just
> eat a piece of meat and they are good to go.
>

Good to go to the hospital, you mean?

Limiting Amino Acid Hypothesis--the zombie that cannot be killed, LOL!

The myth, chat, is that you need to eat a complete protein in the form of combined complementary proteins or protein deficiency is sure to plague you. We now know that a good variety of amino acids over the course of a week or several weeks is adequate. IMO, protein deficiency itself is a myth.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > By contrast non-vegans can just
> > eat a piece of meat and they are good to go.
> >
>
> Good to go to the hospital, you mean?


No, good to go as far as consumption of complete and balanced protein is concerned. But you knew that already, didn't you?





Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The myth, chat, is that you need to eat a complete
> protein in the form of combined complementary
> proteins or protein deficiency is sure to plague
> you. We now know that a good variety of amino
> acids over the course of a week or several weeks
> is adequate. IMO, protein deficiency itself is a
> myth.


I don't understand your logic. According to you, the fact that there are 9 *essential* amino acids - essential because they *have* to be consumed by the person because the body needs them but cannot produce them on it's own - is the myth?

If so, please state the evidence! I would be very interested to learn about one, one less thing to worry about - getting all essential amino acids in balanced proportions, can only be a good thing

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a little info...
>
> [www.incrediblesmoothies.com]
> aw-nutrition/is-spinach-really-a-rich-source-of-pr
> otein/


The problem I see with this article is that it seems to be falling to a very common oversimplification discussing "people need protein in their diet" slogan.

What people need in fact, is amino acids. And there is more than one essential amino acid, and because they are essential the person needs all of them (unless Tambukha supplies us with evidence to the contrary). The article however barely mentions the word amino acid let alone discusses it. Basically, it tells us eat a variety of vegetarian foods and you will be fine! Well, it's certainly fine and good advice as far as it goes, the problem only it doesn't go very far. I'm not sure if this is the sort of information the OP was after, but I was hoping to learn about protein in a little more detail.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 06:15AM by chat.

With respect, I"m not contradicting myself. Saying that an amino acid may be limiting is not the same thing as saying it is a protein is incomplete because it lacks an amino acid. It doesn't lack the amino acid, rather it may not have the sufficient proportion by itself for all of the protein to be absorbed. It's limiting rather than incomplete.

chat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > the myth is the idea proffered and repeated
> that
> > certain plant foods are "absent" certain amino
> > acids. There may be "limiting" amino acids,
> e.g.
> > lysine in grains or methionine in beans, but
> most
> > plant foods contain a complete set of amino
> > acids,albeit it with some limitation, which may
> > actually be a good thing. Plant foods with too
> > complete an amino acid profile, may when
> > concentrated and processed stimulate cancer
> > growth, thing soybean protein isolates.
> >
> > Protein can become too much of a good thing!
>
>
> Please re-read your message, you are contradicting
> yourself at every step, bless
>
> Most vegetable sources of protein are
> incomplete/imbalanced, that is, they contain less
> than 9 essential amino acids or contain some of
> them in insufficient quantity. This is not a myth,
> this is a fact: Young VR, Pellett PL (1994) "Plant
> proteins in relation to human protein and amino
> acid nutrition" AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL
> NUTRITION 59 (5 Suppl).

Here is a post i found on another site -

Amino Acids in Bananas

Bananas are incomplete proteins, although they contain all 18 amino acids. In fact, the amino acid content of bananas is generally negligible, comprising only 1.3 percent of the fruit's entire mass, according to Herbet Shelton in the book "Hygienic System Vol. II: Orthotrophy." In essence, bananas are not a significant source of amino acids. To put this in perspective, the USDA says that the amino acids most present in bananas are aspartic and glutamic acid, which aren't essential amino acids. Only 188 mg of aspartic acid and 231 mg of glutamic acid exist in a large banana, whereas the USDA recommends 56 g of essential amino acids per day.

Bananas are great but a diet of just bananas is not nutritionally sound whatever way you wish to look at it, whether people are having symptoms initially or not is irrelavent. I keep hearing that there is no medical definition of protein deficiency when infact there is and it is known as protein-energy malnutrition, which as you can guess can occur from a lack of overall calories, but not always. And to be fair its not all that common because most people don't consume just 1 or 2 foods.

Healthy digestion is also vitally important when it comes to digesting protein and i have suffered in the past with low levels of various amino acids largely because of low stomach acid, even whilst consuming lots of complete protein rich foods, so yeah assimilation and digestion are very important. Protein is acid dependant for absorption.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 11:12AM by powerlifer.

chat,

The myth is that unless one eats complementary amino acids together the body will not metabolize sufficient protein. The old beans n' rice idea. This became the main controversy about Diet for a Small Planet, which has since been amended by Lappe. If one eats a large variety of foods having a large variety of amino acids, one should hit all tragets over time. This is why clinical protein insufficiency is almost unheard of.

I have this feeling that we are all saying the same thing, so I do not understand what the arguing is about

Since the body de-constructs a "complete" protein and stores the amino acids in the body's amino acid pool to be constructed into whatever protein is needed when it is needed, this idea that all but a complete protein is valuable is nonsense.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chat,
>
> The myth is that unless one eats complementary
> amino acids together the body will not metabolize
> sufficient protein.


Tamukha, I'm afraid you didn't read my posts above properly, or you would not have made your post. At no point I suggested that it is imperative to eat all essential amino acids *together*.

By contrast, I fully agreed with the comment of powerlifer which clearly said:

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The myth as far as i know is about the notion that
> one must consume a complete protein at each
> meal(which is a good thing) but it is not needed.
> Its about the quality of amino acids you consume
> over the day not at one meal, although it is
> preferred if the protein is complete.


Since your post, which your wrote as a reply to my comments, came both after powerlifer's and mine reply to him, I really didn't see your logic in making it.

I thought that was exactly what you were implying with your post as well Chat. It very much sounds like you are saying complete proteins need to be consumed rather than a variety of foods which will make up all the essential amino acids but can be eaten at different meals/days, etc. Miscommunication.


chat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most important thing about protein is that it must
> be complete and balanced, which means you need to
> be getting all essential amino acids in balanced
> proportion.
>
> This is the problem for vegans because there are
> very few foods which are the source of complete
> protein, most of the time you have to combine
> different foods in order to get all amino acids in
> right proportions. By contrast non-vegans can just
> eat a piece of meat and they are good to go.
>
> Sources of complete protein for vegans include
> soya beans, buckwheat and hemp. Check wikipedia
> articles on protein and complete protein, lots of
> good info.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With respect, I"m not contradicting myself.
> Saying that an amino acid may be limiting is not
> the same thing as saying it is a protein is
> incomplete because it lacks an amino acid. It
> doesn't lack the amino acid, rather it may not
> have the sufficient proportion by itself for all
> of the protein to be absorbed. It's limiting
> rather than incomplete.


No worries, if this is your point, fair enough. But what is the point in making it?



The fact is, the person needs 1)all essential amino acids (that is, complete) and 2)in balanced proportions. For proper nutrition, we need both 1 and 2. Just 1, or just 2 will not do.

The fact is, most vegetable sources *either* lack some essential amino acids *or* contain some of them in lower proportions.

So what's the point arguing that most vegetable sources contain all essential amino acids (can satisfy 1), but at the same time contain some of them in insufficient quantities (fail to satisfy 2)? Well, yeah, that's the problem! And that's what I tried to suggest in my original comment, that most plant proteins are either incomplete or imbalanced, and therefore it is important that the person takes care in their diet to receive complete and balance protein.


Unless you now want to suggest that balanced protein (essential amino acids in correct proportions) is harmful or unnecessary - if this is so, please state the evidence for this suggestion. Otherwise it is just your opinion which as the case is, contradicts current scientific data.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 02:47PM by chat.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought that was exactly what you were implying
> with your post as well Chat. It very much sounds
> like you are saying complete proteins need to be
> consumed rather than a variety of foods which will
> make up all the essential amino acids but can be
> eaten at different meals/days, etc.
> Miscommunication.


I totally understand that it could have been misinterpreted, that is why I welcomed powerlifer's comment and even asked the question:

chat Wrote:

> This is absolutely true. I'm interested whether we
> should be worried about getting complete protein
> over the day. What if we take care to get complete
> protein over say a week, would this be optimal?


Tamukha's reply came way after the above comments hence it didn't make sense to me at all.

1 the aminos in meat are " unbalanced"
For humans.

2 explain how cows, fruit bats, koalas, bonobos,
Gorillas manage to survive

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1 the aminos in meat are " unbalanced"
> For humans.


That is some scientific advance, care to cite your sources?




fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 explain how cows, fruit bats, koalas, bonobos,
> Gorillas manage to survive

Are you a gorilla?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 03:00PM by chat.