Inorganic plants can contain high levels of anti nutrients

It is well known that plants generally contain antinutrients
acquired from fertilizer and pesticides and
several naturally-occurring chemicals (Igile, 1996). Some
of these chemicals are known as ‘‘secondary
metabolites’’ and they have been shown to be highly
biologically active (Zenk, 1991). They include saponins,
tannins, flavonoids, alkaloids, trypsin (protease)
inhibitors, oxalates, phytates, haemagluttinins (lectins),
cyanogenic glycosides, cardiac glycosides, coumarins
and gossypol. The list is inexhaustible. Some of these
plant chemicals have been shown to be deleterious to
health or evidently advantageous to human and animal
health if consumed at appropriate amounts (Kersten et
al., 1991; Sugano et al; 1993)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2013 02:48AM by The Sproutarian Man.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> We were given the intelligance to use simple food
> processing measures to tame an un-natural food
> supply, so why not use it to our advantage. Using
> over simplified arguments that "it isn't natural"
> simply doesn't cut it because they are airy fairy
> arguments. Is eating high levels of anti nutrients
> natural? Is eating poorly digested food natural?
> Is eating post harvested food natural? Is eating
> unripe fruit natural? It's time to get real folks.


The folly arguments for eating naturally given by raw food leaders

And one day...one day...l am going to completely destroy the nonsense arguments that say sprouting and fermenting is inferior because it isn't natural. Because we know for a fact that when various animals are given fermented and sprouted foods, their health improves. We know for a fact that many animals DO suffer poor health from anti nutrients in foods.

Animals who eat foods from nature don't neccessarily have the best health. In time l am going to completely bury the rediculous argument that we should eat naturally for best health, i've got so much research collected that completely defies this.

Lots of fancy theories around, but maybe it's time to put some of those to bed once and for all. There's no point living in an illusion when discussing raw foods....far better to use what knowledge we can to our advantage.

www.thesproutarian.com

IMO, cooking food was a way for ancient people to get rid of anti nutrients and make food more palatable.

So, except for naturally ripened organic fruits, fermenting and sprouting could be needed for the same reason, or at least some basic processing.

I heard complaints about bad digestion among 100% rawfooders, many take this or that pill or supplement - none should be needed if the raw food diet was perfect. So we have to find a way to perfect it.


blessings to you all
Cynthia

cynthia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO, cooking food was a way for ancient people to
> get rid of anti nutrients and make food more
> palatable.


Yes, but fermenting takes it to a whole new level. But as Powerlifter was sort of saying, too many ferments can cause trouble in some people (depends on many factors). Some can't tolerate many ferments, while others thrive on it. And there is even some science suggesting that a diet high in fermented soy can contribute to esophageal cancer, but that seems to be the only problem food in this respect. But if a person has yeast problems etc, it just means certain therapies need to be done to fix the person before going onto ferments.

As for acidity...well, l think it's quite a misunderstood topic in the raw food community, including for myself. Distilled water is slightly acid, but people are not reporting problems with it despite drinking a gallon a day for years. From my understanding, an acidic food doesn't always mean it's going to have an acidic reaction in the intestines. Some of the first life form food is said to be acid like algaes and sea weeds, but after digestion they are said to be highly alkaline.


>
> So, except for naturally ripened organic fruits,
> fermenting and sprouting could be needed for the
> same reason, or at least some basic processing.
If you are high raw then fermentation is essential. No doubts about it. It also helps break down the harsh fibers in raw.


>
> I heard complaints about bad digestion among 100%
> rawfooders, many take this or that pill or
> supplement - none should be needed if the raw food
> diet was perfect. So we have to find a way to
> perfect it.
Cooking is an absurd notion, but so is eating raw food the way the majority of people eat it (crude raw food eaters). We want to maximise absorption and create nutrients via the fermentation process. l do so well on fermented foods and they go down almost like silk (broken down fiber and anti nutrients) and digest great. l also use rye sprout water in my green drinks to destroy most of the tannins so my protein, carb and fatty acid absorption is maximised...+ l have the good bacteria if fermentation is carefully done and kept away from other people.

This fermentation thing is totally unpractical.
For noon tomorrow I am planning on a couple of bananas, some tomatoes, one avocado, and some lettuce for lunch. How do I improve on this through fermentation. These are foods I can pick up from the store on my way to work.
How many nutrients will be lost because they were not fermented. Give me a break.
I would need countless jars of fermentation going on in my apartment with no way to check if the fermentation was successful or not.
And if that was not enough, we have to add urine.
I guess that what makes a forum, some good, some nonsense.

You already seem to have made up your mind madinah, so should l be giving you a studied response with good science? Probably not.

l hope you are not calling the fermenting and other therapies "nonsense", but if you are then so be it.

If you have got genuine questions and are looking seriously into the things l talk about, l am happy to help, but l will not engage in silly talk if it is your intention to run down sound ideas by calling them nonsense. There is good science and testimonials to the things l talk about.

As for being impractical...that depends on the type and amount of food you are eating. If you are eating large amounts of fruit and vegetables, yes it would be impractical.

This topic is only for people who are looking for ways to improve their diet and open to various things which have worked well for other people including myself. If you aren't open to fermenting there is probably no need to continue any further discussion in this thread.

A reason why fermented breads are not always enough processing, and why breads need to be both sprouted and fermented. Things like phytate in some serials can only be reduced by up to 50%, but this means that zinc and iron are still greatly inhibited (science to prove this another day), so further processing needs to occur.

The good news is that some other anti nutrients suchs as lectins can be reduced up to 95% be fermenting alone.

This is only a basic extract because it doesn't tell us what types of foods are being fermented, but it does stress that fermentation does reduce anti nutrients.

Reduction in antinutritional and toxic components in plant foods by fermentation
[www.sciencedirect.com]


Here is an even better study that covers a how high tannin cereal is greatly tamed by wheat phytase fermentation. Total phenols reduced by 57% and phytic acid reduced by 89%, and hence iron absorption tripled. This is only a basic study, but it tells us some positive things about making iron absorption much better in raw vegan foods.

Fermentation and enzyme treatment of tannin sorghum gruels: effects on phenolic compounds, phytate and in vitro accessible iron
[www.sciencedirect.com]

Just imagine how good it would have been to ferment with rye phytase and to have actually sprouted the high tannin cereals. WOW...would have been an real opener, and it is!!! You wait until l post the really exciting stuff when sprouting and fermentation is used.

Tannins are a savage beast indeed, and can even limit mineral/protein/carb absorption when high level phytic acids are removed. But there are ways we can deal with savage beasts with sharp teeth.

The really great news is that the lectins, phytic acids, gluten and other menaces can have their teeth pulled out so they become toothless tigers. With tannins we can blunt their teeth and but not remove them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2013 12:17AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Grain is not for human consumption fermented or not. I am having my non fermented mangoes for dinner.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But, Im not sure rejuvelac can be compared with
> solids of grain ferments. I would imagine that the
> solid ferments have a lot more phytase compared to
> liquid rejuvelac.

I don't think that matters in practise because grain solids can't penetrate other foods substances like lentils/nuts etc, so all we can do is soak various foods in a huigh phytase liquid solution (rejuvalic). It does seem to work well, and it can't be improved upon.


>
> Of course the rejuvelac would have more solid if
> the grain is blended.

Possibly, but that can bring problems too. Who wants to be eating all this blended grain? And mixing grains with nuts isn't the best idea either. There are other possible problems too with blending changing the vibrational structure of the fermentation.

I really think the soaking in rejuvalic is as good as it gets for average people.

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grain is not for human consumption fermented or
> not. I am having my non fermented mangoes for
> dinner.

why not?

what about sprouted fermented grains?

l do agree that unsprouted non fermented grains are unfit for human consumption however.

Are the mangos fresh and ripe from the tree?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2013 12:45AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Are people so chronically sick that they can no longer enjoy food in its natural state? Rejuvelac and the like were used to reestablish a lost condition but once you have done that, you should not have to suffer for ever eating fermented foods or drinking urine. You should be able to use your hands to grab a fruit from a tree and eat it. Life is naturally simple.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2013 12:57AM by madinah.

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
You should be able to use your
> hands to grab a fruit from a tree and eat it. Life
> is naturally simple.

It should be like that, but how many grab fruit straight from trees and eat fresh? And what about pollution and the need for greens in this un-natural environment...that's when the problems start.

We don't live in a natural enviroment now.
----------------------------------------------------

Tannins rear their ugly teeth again:

Lactic Fermentation of Non-Tannin and High-Tannin Cereals: Effects on In Vitro Estimation of Iron Availability and Phytate Hydrolysis
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]


But if we choose to eat high tannin foods we can still greatly help blunt the teeth of the tannin beast. The taming of some undesirable foods below:

Effects of Malting and Fermentation on Anti-Nutrient Reduction and Protein Digestibility of Red Sorghum, White Sorghum and Pearl Millet
[www.ccsenet.org]

I know we aren't going to go malting our food, but sprouting and fermenting does similar things (the link another day when l find it).

Exactly my thoughts too.

Then again, the mighty Kulvinskas is a heavy believer in grain, but he also warns against it because it increases sex drive and negatively effects spiritual levels because it can draw you into wanting too much sex lol. Grains stimulate and draw us into the physical world more so we can be overcome by distractions. It can turn us into sex addicts, and yes, sprouted grains have the same effects on various animals and do promote fertility in previous infertile animals.

I agree with madinah. I'd rather eat an organic Keitt mango grown in California (one that hasn't been heat treated).

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with madinah. I'd rather eat an organic
> Keitt mango grown in California (one that hasn't
> been heat treated).

You should have seen the diet my sproutarian friend used to eat for years before l met him. He had the most unappetising diet of all time - he used to eat sooo crudely, he would eat the woodiest overgrown lentil sprouts and these tough old barley sprouts LOL. No jokes...his diet was like eating straw. He would eat a small handful of straw-like food in the morning and be done for the day. l still laugh my head off about it.

I've now got him into sea weeds, fermentation and other things.

* fermented spirulina algae (blue drink)
* fermented kelp (brown drink)
* fermented lentil sprouts





www.thesproutarian.com

On one side there is that ideal : to eat freshly picked fresh, ripen fruits from trees, living with nature (maybe like the Hunzas of the ancient time, although they would not eat only fruits...). That pleases me. Like an ancient memory of lost paradise. I do that in the summer and it makes me feel good.

On the other side there is reality, and I bet none of us here live in a pristine clear environment (soil, air, water...) and growing all their own fruits and vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds and the likes (I do grow a few fruit trees, berries, vegetables, pumpkin seeds, etc. but I'm by no way self-sufficient and I can tell you that the season for having that freshly picked ripen fruit from the tree or vegetable from the garden doesn't last long...). I don't like to eat frozen food so I would have to dehydrate the most part of my harvest (to be self-sufficient without canning), and eat dehydrated fruits for many months. I don't do that. Im like everyone else here and I buy fresh food from the store when the weather is no more appropriate for growing produce.

So we rely on others, on growers so to say to eat fresh.That's fine. We can always find conscious growers, or taping on Internet resources and the likes. But IMO, trying to supplement the fruits/vegetables/berries from growers by growing sprouts all year long is a way to get free from the growers, to get self-sufficient even partially. These two options are not excluding each other but complementing. And I appreciate the posts of those who witness that they are getting more and more self-sufficient in that way.
Now, if soaking the sprouts make then better energized, more digestible, then why not?
That perfect California mango is still welcome!


blessings to you all
Cynthia

Want a organic apple from my old apple tree?

They are just ripe right now.

Soon I'll have to rely on my favorite produce store lol!


Love
Cynthia

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> * fermented spirulina algae (blue drink)
> * fermented kelp (brown drink)
> * fermented lentil sprouts
>
> [s11.postimg.org]
> g
>
> [s22.postimg.org]
> g


Great post. I guess it is doable. You are an inspiration.

My one major concern with the fermenting is what the lentils jar is showing. Some of the lentils will not sprout, so in the end, they will spoil the batch unless you painfully remove the unsprouting ones one by one with your fingers. This is special true with seeds like quinoa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2013 04:36PM by RawPracticalist.

cynthia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Want a organic apple from my old apple tree?
>

You are so lucky having all that wonderful land and those fruit trees. I would love to have that.

Did you get the email l sent you? Hopefully you got it, if not, please let me know.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> My one major concern with the fermenting is what
> the lentils jar is showing. Some of the lentils
> will not sprout, so in the end, they will spoil
> the batch unless you painfully remove the
> unsprouting ones one by one with your fingers.
> This is special true with seeds like quinoa

People ferment unsprouted grains and beans to make cultures. Why do you think unsprouted lentils will spoil it?

l am currently soaking the lentils in rejuvalic for 24 hours.

Fermented kelp and lentils are delicious. Soon l will try the fermented wheat sprouts, hopefully they taste good too.

Some of the seeds are dead so what do you think will happen to them when they are soaked in water for 5 days or more? They cannot sprout, the develop mold, that is why the study by Brian Clement found that 60 percent of the rejuvelac was bad. And in your case, you don't just drink the water, you also eat the seeds.

Quote

Rejuvelac. We used to call it rejuve-rot. It is not a Hippocrates invention, it is a traditional drink from the Baltic countries. We used it in the past because we thought it had lacto-bacteria. We paid for a study on rejuvelac; we naively thought the fermentation would always be good bacteria. The study found that this was not the case; 40% of the batches tested were good, 60% were bad. Also, you cannot tell by the smell if the bacteria are good or bad. Instead, you can use acidophilus supplements, and they can be taken as implants also.

[www.living-foods.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2013 10:51AM by RawPracticalist.

Great post. Your contribution to the forum is very positive even though I disagree with some of your points. You take time to explain your position which is very good.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to say that with that the addition of bean
> sprouts to the brewing rejuvelac has been reducing
> spoilage. I could even had more than 3 batches
> from the same seed probably. I've been making
> rejuvelac with soybean sprouts without a problem.
> Soybeans have the most citric acid of any other
> bean apparently. Though I may want to switch if
> soybean sprouts aren't ideal... something like a
> mix of adzuki and lima bean if I can get them to
> sprout. Adzuki for the vit. k2 producing bacteria
> and lima for the next highest amount of citric
> acid.


I would still find it hard to eat sprouted fermented beans.
Maybe just drink the water, the gas from the beans never goes away in my opinion.

I am looking into trying fermented juices. My only concern is given that 60 percent of the rejuvelac batches are bad according to Brian Clement study, then 60 percent of my juices will be contaminated which is worse than not being efficiently absorbed.

I tried to sprout chia seeds and I got a jelly impossible to drain - any advices are welcome

the other seeds I'm sprouting are alfalfa et clover - soon I will try fenugrek

If anyone has digestive problems(candida, poor motility, IBS, leaky gut etc) or gut flora imbalances in general then soil based organisms are a good addition to fermented foods. Or if one is wishing to support the gut flora but isn't in the position to ferment there own foods. Store bought fermented foods such as kefir tend to contain very little if any viable beneficial organisms and often lots of sugar.

The best soil based organism probiotic/prebiotic supplement is called Prescript-Assist

Prescript-Assist is one of the few probiotics to have double blind placebo controlled, clinical studies proving its effectiveness at restoring the gastro-intestinal microflora. Soil based organism are also heat stable, so don't require refridgeration or lose potency like other probiotics.

Primal Defense is often recommended as a good soil based organism probiotic but it only has 1 SBO strain compared to Prescript-Assit which has 29 strains of SBOs and naturally occuring prebiotic to provide food for the beneficial bacteria.

Soil Based Organisms are a good to accompany fermented foods because we don't tend to get much or any of these in our diet of current times. Unless you grow your own produce and eat relatively straight from the soil, then most produce is heavily washed, cleaned before we consume.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2013 09:50AM by powerlifter.

cynthia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I tried to sprout chia seeds and I got a jelly
> impossible to drain - any advices are welcome

l actually made a video on sprouting chia. I haven't released it yet because the editing wasn't done correctly and my presentation is still below par (l am only new at at making videos and presentations), but l might post it so you can look at it.


>
> the other seeds I'm sprouting are alfalfa et
> clover - soon I will try fenugrek

That is really great!


Here is a nice little article on the benefits of fermenting. The first four pages are all that needs to be read.
[sustainjefferson.org]

Here is a short study showing how using a phytase solution can greatly degrade phytic acids and hence greatly increase absorption of iron. Note: the highest source of phytase we can make at home is fermented rye sprout water.

Degradation of phytic acid in cereal porridges improves iron absorption by human subjects.

Hurrell RF, Reddy MB, Juillerat MA, Cook JD.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Now something interesting. The higher the level of vitamin C in food, the less the inhibiting effect the [higher level] phytates have on impeding iron absorption. But the same old problem....if the food is not fresh and has been a product delivered by a mass food handling system, then how much vitamin C is left in the food?...definitely much less because mass food handling systems has been shown to leach vitamin C and B vitamins from food according to post food harvesting science (a big factor) and non fresh produce isn't helping the case either. BUT....vitamin C doesn't completely inhibit phytic acid, and this is still a problem because phytic acid needs to be largely reconverted to lower level phytates by at least 90% to really get proper absorption of iron and zinc...and lets not forget other nutritional factors that vitamin C doesn't have an effect on. So yes, eating fresh sprouts is not the entire answer....it's more complex than that, and testing this by eating fresh sprouts verus fresh fermented sprouts proves this (fermented sprouts go down much much better than unfermented sprouts in healthy people...more silky and smooth and less taxing on the digestion). So...if you think you are in the clear because you are consuming high levels of vitamin C to over-ride the phytic acid (sprouts), think again, there are other factors at play also. See...fermenting is a big winner.

Another reason why raw vegans have it tough = dairy greatly inhibits the negative effects of high level phytates. Now...dairy does inhibit iron absorption too, but it looks like phytic acids could be much more inhibiting imo. No wonder why vegetarians do so much better than raw vegans...they have a few more safe guards. It's good to be aware of this.

It's all very interesting stuff, and it's about time people started thinking about these things so we can bring the raw vegan diet up to a much higher level. The knowledge is much better than 30 years ago, so lets use it. The raw vegans are still stuck in the past with old outdated thinking with no bearing on reality, that's why many are struggling.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2013 11:07PM by The Sproutarian Man.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Another reason why raw vegans have it tough =
> dairy greatly inhibits the negative effects of
> high level phytates. Now...dairy does inhibit iron
> absorption too, but it looks like phytic acids
> could be much more inhibiting imo.

This doesn't mean that consuming dairy will cause one to be low in iron, because other studies show that eating other foods in combination with dairy can counteract this effect.

Still, it says that vegetarians have it far easier than raw vegans.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
So...if you think you are in the clear
> because you are consuming high levels of vitamin C
> to over-ride the phytic acid (sprouts), think
> again, there are other factors at play also.
> See...fermenting is a big winner.

Namely...POLYPHENOLS!!!

How nasty are they? Very. Yes a tea study is posted below. Why? Because tea is high in tannins and polyphenols like many raw vegan foods, and simply eating fresh produce high in vitamin C isn't going to solve the iron absorption problem because it only will adress phytic acid, yet the tanniojns still rear their ugly head. We can only reduce the dreaded tannins by fermenting in a high phytase solution. Tannins have sharper teeth than even the high level phytic acids.

Cup of tea studies on poor iron absorption caused by polyphenols (probably tannins)
Single-meal studies using tea and coffee as sources of polyphenols have shown that polyphenols decrease iron absorption [75,76,77,78,79]. Although few studies have measured the polyphenol content of test beverages, it appears polyphenols have a dose-dependent effect on iron absorption, with increasingly concentrated tea having more potency [77]. Tea made from 3 g tea leaves concentrated at 396 mg/275 mL serve polyphenols reduced absorption by 91%, while the same tea diluted to 99 mg/275 mL serve polyphenols reduced iron absorption by 82% [77]. The timing of beverage consumption may also be influential. This notion was demonstrated by Morck et al. [78], who found that consuming coffee one hour following a meal or simultaneously with a meal both inhibited iron absorption by 44%, while coffee consumption one hour prior to food had no effect.Adding milk to beverages does not appear to meaningfully alter the inhibitory effect of polyphenols

Iron and Zinc Nutrition in the Economically-Developed World: A Review

Karen H. C. Lim, Lynn J. Riddell, Caryl A. Nowson, Alison O. Booth, and Ewa A. Szymlek-Gay
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

and

however 100 mg of ascorbic acid added to a meal of rice and soup could not counteract the inhibitory effect of tea

The effect of tea on iron absorption.

Disler PB, Lynch SR, Charlton RW, Torrance JD, Bothwell TH, Walker RB, Mayet F
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2013 11:55PM by The Sproutarian Man.