For the record, I have been vegan in the past and was successful. It wasn't difficult at all (except for the honey part--when I do it again I will be a BEEgan ).

What bugs me is when people talk about being a vegan and then discuss supplementation with B-12 or other things (D is another big one). If the diet is adequate, it shouldn't need supplementation! Animals don't take supplements.

Please respond if you are a vegan for a long time and don't supplement with B-12. I don't want to take supplements.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What bugs me is when people talk about being a
> vegan and then discuss supplementation with B-12
> or other things (D is another big one). If the
> diet is adequate, it shouldn't need
> supplementation! Animals don't take supplements.

animals don't take showers or use toilet paper everyday. Neither they clean their foods. B12 is a bacteria product and it enters through the mouth or the skin when around a cobalt rich soil.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the record, I have been vegan in the past and
> was successful. It wasn't difficult at all (except
> for the honey part--when I do it again I will be a
> BEEgan ).
>
> What bugs me is when people talk about being a
> vegan and then discuss supplementation with B-12
> or other things (D is another big one). If the
> diet is adequate, it shouldn't need
> supplementation! Animals don't take supplements.
>
> Please respond if you are a vegan for a long time
> and don't supplement with B-12. I don't want to
> take supplements.


1.) Humans do not live like animals out in nature. Most people eat processed and fast foods, sit in front of a computer/TV for 5+ hours per day, stay indoors most of the time, have modern-day stresses of paying bills/sitting in traffic/working jobs they dislike, etc. Many people also destroy their stomach cells through bad habits and as a result can not produce enough intrinsic factor which is needed to absorb B12.

2.) The purity of the planet is nowhere near what is used to be and this is one of the major reasons B12 is not available. From my knowledge, no humans originated from cold areas of the world where it is impossible to get enough vitamin D3 from the sun. We originated from tropical areas.

The Raw Vegan Diet is our Ideal Diet in an Ideal World. Unfortunately, we have DAMAGED ourselves and the Environment and now, we have another Group of Needs we must Satisfy. I have gone over this many times in the past, so if anyone has any questions, do a search on this website and you shouldn't have any trouble finding some of those old posts.

I don't buy that stuff about the soil. B-12 is needed in very small amounts. From what I understand, it is produced in the gut so one's gut needs to be on point. I have also heard that fermented veggies can help with all this. I don't want to wear a patch or pop a pill. That seems unnatural to me.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That seems unnatural to me.

Why cherry pick whats natural? Look to see if other animals take showers every day. That looks unnatural to me. I remember reading about a vegan Iranian village that did not take b12 but they did not took showers either.

bananawho

>that seems unnatural to me

you can't be serious.

can you think of everything that you do that is unnatural?

anything?


[www.veganhealth.org]

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I remember reading about a vegan
> Iranian village that did not take b12 but they did
> not took showers either.

They most likely reingested their own and other's feces. No toilet paper + no running water + wiping themselves 'clean' with their left hands = 2nd runthrough B12. IMO.

>one can commit suicide.



but why don't you? there must be a reason.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I need to die when Im on my last nerve so people
> can rejoice in a person suffering so deeply...
> people like to prey on victims and to torture them
> like scapegoats.

i was hoping for a better reason

Storm you need some OUTDOOR aerobic exercise daily pronto. I can tell from here you don't get any, thus your suffering is a CHOICE.One can exercise OUTDOORS, circed or not...

dra·ma queen
nouninformal
a person who habitually responds to situations in a melodramatic way.

scape goat:

a goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16).


so maybe you should be eating more wheatgrass - that is the ideal diet for goats.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't buy that stuff about the soil. B-12 is
> needed in very small amounts. From what I
> understand, it is produced in the gut so one's gut
> needs to be on point. I have also heard that
> fermented veggies can help with all this. I don't
> want to wear a patch or pop a pill. That seems
> unnatural to me.

AHEM! "Unnatural"?

The fact is, we can CHOOSE between:

(1) What we've been taught is "natural".

and

(2) A personal code of ethics.

Most of us were TAUGHT that it's "natural" to drink milk from another species' breasts, although no other mature animal in the wild does this. Additionally, milking another species requires separating the young from their mothers. Many of us either don't know of this requirement, or we don't care. Can this behavior be defined as "natural"? Only human non-vegans do this. And many human cultures around the world have traditionally rejected this.

Our concept of "natural" is influenced by how we were raised, what we want to hear at the time, and who we listen to.

SO, when it comes to making a choice between a supplement and an animal source of B12:

If taking a B12 supplement bothers us more than separating babies from their mothers or taking honey away from bees (and replacing it with sugar), we will find it "natural" to choose the animal product over the supplement.

On the other hand, if exploiting animals to the point of inflicting physical and emotional harm bothers us more than taking a supplement, we will find it absolutely "natural" to choose the supplement.

_____________________________________________________________________

Please read Diet for a New America, by John Robbins. If you've already read the book, and your choices were not affected, then OK. Maybe next year, or the year after, or sometime later you will change your mind. For the animals' sake, I'm hopeful. For yours, you must do what you believe.

_____________________________________________________________________

Banana who, you are correct that B12 is needed in only very small amounts and also that it's produced in the human gut.

Production is not the issue. It's where the B12 is produced, and it's produced past the point in the gut where it can meet up with "intrinsic factor". Intrinsic factor is required for absorption.

Some people have compromised guts that can't absorb B12, even when it's eaten (This includes B12 from both animal products and supplements). If a person is in that category, a supplement won't help them. They require B12 shots or a patch. Most of these people are elderly. But for the vast majority of us, eating foods containing B12 or taking a supplement is sufficient.

Humans do recycle most of what we've stored up, but this supply gradually dwindles, because we don't recycle all of it. That's why it usually takes a pretty long time to become deficient.

(It took me 15 years, but I was also working with a lot of chicken manures.)

_________________________________________________________________

A word about methylcobalamin: it is more easily assimilated than cyanocobalamin. However, it's also less stable, which is why the recommended daily dose is much higher.

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Raw Vegan Diet is our Ideal Diet in an Ideal
> World. Unfortunately, we have DAMAGED ourselves
> and the Environment and now, we have another Group
> of Needs we must Satisfy...

JOHN ROSE made an important point IMO.

I'm not sure that "DAMAGED" is exactly the most accurate term, but certainly we've CHANGED our bodies over time as a result of our environment and our choices. Along with our ability to absorb our own B12, we also lost our ability to produce our own Vitamin C and most other vitamins as well (which is why we have to eat them). Plants and many other animals produce their own vitamin C from glucose. The two molecules are very similar:



I think the following is a good article on the science supporting John Rose's statement:

[www.nytimes.com]

From the article:

" Early life-forms could make their own vitamins, but some species — including ours — later lost that ability...

"Our own ancestors needed just thousands of years to alter their production of vitamin D. When humans left equatorial Africa and spread to higher latitudes, the sun was lower in the sky and supplied less ultraviolet light. By evolving lighter skin, Europeans and Asians were able to continue making a healthy supply of vitamin D.

“It may seem counterintuitive that you would lose a gene that enables you to be independent...But if you’re always surrounded by a vitamin for a long period of time, then you don’t need to use the gene.”

And this may apply to Vitamin B12. Eat a lot of meat for thousands of years, and you lose the ability to use your own.

HOWEVER, harming other animals doesn't have to be our fate for the NEXT million years, or even for our own lifetimes, because: all we have to do is take a B12 supplement instead. Thankfully, supplements aren't as effective for ALL our other vitamins, so we also get to eat great vegan foods!

"And this may apply to Vitamin B12. Eat a lot of meat for thousands of years, and you lose the ability to use your own."

Same can be said for vitamin C, eat a lot of fruits and greens for thousands of years and you lose the ability to create your own.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "And this may apply to Vitamin B12. Eat a lot of
> meat for thousands of years, and you lose the
> ability to use your own."
>
> Same can be said for vitamin C, eat a lot of
> fruits and greens for thousands of years and you
> lose the ability to create your own.

Exactly, jtprindl. It's the main point made in the article at the link posted above.

Personally, I don't mind this, because I like fruit. I don't like hurting animals though. Thank goodness for B12 supplements!

Storm wrote:
"only to get slaughtered by people, hell no."

Huh? But then you're slaughtering yourself sitting indoors all day smoking copious amounts of weed and becoming paranoid to the point of being mentally non functional...

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some people have compromised guts that can't
> absorb B12, even when it's eaten (This includes
> B12 from both animal products and supplements).
> If a person is in that category, a supplement
> won't help them.

Wrong (sorry). Oral supplements may help them too in large enough doses.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2015 12:24AM by suncloud.

Agree with NuNativs about the importance of exercise. Try googling "exercise and depression".

Then part ways with the computer for at least a little while and do it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2015 12:23AM by suncloud.

Suncloud, I realize it has to have huge parameters but what would be a more or less average percentage of people poo p which is actually our gut bacteria's poo p?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2015 12:49AM by SueZ.

It can be read here:

[ajcn.nutrition.org]

Quote

SUMMARY

Serum vitamin B12 concentiations in twenty three
villagers of Iran consuming a diet extremely
low in animal protein and presumably
in vitamin B12 content did not differ significantly
from that found in twenty-three villagers
who ate animal protein and who presumably
received adequate amounts of the vitamin.
Possible explanations are offered for this
finding. The serum vitamin B12 concentrations
were not significantly different from
those found in normal persons in the United
States. This study indicates that vitamin B12
deficiency caused only by a deficient diet
must be very rare.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They most likely reingested their own and other's
> feces. No toilet paper + no running water + wiping
> themselves 'clean' with their left hands = 2nd
> runthrough B12. IMO.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suncloud, I realize it has to have huge parameters
> but what would be a more or less average
> percentage of people poo p which is actually our
> gut bacteria's poo p?

Funny!!!

I haven't found an answer for you yet, but my guess is the percentage is generally greater for people with vegetarian and vegan diets - since gut bacteria eat the soluble fiber that we eat (among other things).

This article says, "About 30 percent of the solid matter (of human feces) consists of dead bacteria" (parentheses mine). That's an interesting surprise (to me!), but the article doesn't mention anything about the feces from the bacteria.

[www.britannica.com]

Here's a good article (seems long, but most of the page is comments) where Jeff Leach emphasizes the importance of fiber and says, "when you think about dietary fiber from the perspective of your gut microbiota, it’s food for them...

"...once you start starving your bacteria, you don’t deliver enough substrates, resistant starch and non-starch polysaccharides, when you don’t deliver enough of that stuff from plants, the bacteria have to eat something, so they start eating you...

"They eat your mucous lining in your colon, and it’s thought that maybe once you start to degrade that protective barrier, you then expose it to potential problems..."

The article also includes an interesting perspective on colon cleanses that I hadn't heard or thought of before: they wash out your friendly bacteria. Hmmm. I wonder what happens to bacteria during fasting.

[chriskresser.com]

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NuNativs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Storm wrote:
> > "only to get slaughtered by people, hell no."
> >
> > Huh? But then you're slaughtering yourself
> sitting
> > indoors all day smoking copious amounts of weed
> > and becoming paranoid to the point of being
> > mentally non functional...
>
>
> no weed for months

In my opinion, this is commendable Storm!

Suncloud, maybe you found the mystery of extra @#$%& when on a long fast People would think they are @#$%& an ancient mucoid plaque but not fresh bacteria.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Suncloud, I realize it has to have huge
> parameters
> > but what would be a more or less average
> > percentage of people poo p which is actually
> our
> > gut bacteria's poo p?
>
> Funny!!!
>
> I haven't found an answer for you yet, but my
> guess is the percentage is generally greater for
> people with vegetarian and vegan diets - since gut
> bacteria eat the soluble fiber that we eat (among
> other things).
>
> This article says, "About 30 percent of the solid
> matter (of human feces) consists of dead bacteria"
> (parentheses mine). That's an interesting
> surprise (to me!), but the article doesn't mention
> anything about the feces from the bacteria.
>
> [www.britannica.com]
> eces
>
> Here's a good article (seems long, but most of the
> page is comments) where Jeff Leach emphasizes the
> importance of fiber and says, "when you think
> about dietary fiber from the perspective of your
> gut microbiota, it’s food for them...
>
> "...once you start starving your bacteria, you
> don’t deliver enough substrates, resistant
> starch and non-starch polysaccharides, when you
> don’t deliver enough of that stuff from plants,
> the bacteria have to eat something, so they start
> eating you...
>
> "They eat your mucous lining in your colon, and
> it’s thought that maybe once you start to
> degrade that protective barrier, you then expose
> it to potential problems..."
>
> The article also includes an interesting
> perspective on colon cleanses that I hadn't heard
> or thought of before: they wash out your friendly
> bacteria. Hmmm. I wonder what happens to
> bacteria during fasting.
>
> [chriskresser.com]
> -eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-wit
> h-jeff-leach

Thank you, suncloud, I will read these links in the morning. I'm trying to figure out just what "juice feasters" are poo ping out for 90 days. Maybe when they get done poo ping out all their dead bacteria, their bacteria's poo p, and their mucus colon linings, they poo p out their diverticuli.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suncloud, maybe you found the mystery of extra
> @#$%& when on a long fast People would think
> they are @#$%& an ancient mucoid plaque but not
> fresh bacteria.


Ah ha! Seems you are starting to catch on ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2015 02:53PM by SueZ.

SueZ, my gosh, you had me laughing again this morning!

Regarding the comparison between taking a B12 supplement and eating non-vegan foods, what about EGGS? What are the ethics of eating eggs, and is this practice "natural"?

The most "ethical" egg choice is often considered to be non-fertile eggs from free-range hens.

Here are some questionable practices always involved, even for non-fertile eggs from free-range hens:

SEPARATE all the roosters from the hens, except for breeding purposes.
KILL all male chicks, often by grinding them up alive (or raise a breed where the roosters can be KILLED and cooked. The hens will lay fewer eggs)
TAKE the hens' eggs away from them.

Ethical? Natural? No.

From [en.wikipedia.org] :

"Methods of culling include cervical dislocation, asphyxiation by carbon dioxide and maceration using a high speed grinder.

Good article:

[www.theguardian.com]

"The market share of free range eggs has increased significantly over recent years as more consumers become switched on about the ethics of egg production. But how many realise that for each of the millions of hens laying ethically-produced eggs, a male chick is slaughtered on day one?"

(The author also discusses the proposed alternative of using GM chickens that produce fluorescent female embryos, so that the males can be terminated when they're still in the egg. How ethical and "natural" is that?)

Egg eaters, if you eat eggs, you can handle watching this, so please do:

[hatchery.mercyforanimals.org]

"...Mercy For Animals is calling on the nation's 50 largest grocery chains to require that all eggs sold in their stores bear a label reading, 'Warning: Male chicks are ground-up alive by the egg industry.'

"Driven by consumer demand, the egg industry will continue to exploit, abuse, and kill day-old animals as long as doing so remains profitable. Empowered consumers can put their ethics on the table by choosing kindness over cruelty at each meal by adopting an animal-friendly vegan diet."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2015 07:31PM by suncloud.

Hey Panchito,

Actually, come to think of it, I don't usually @#$%& much at all when on a long water fast. Maybe once or twice, small time. After the fast, yes.

I wonder if a water fast will reserve healthy bacteria, at least to a certain extent. How long do the bacteria go without fresh sources of fiber before they begin to starve?

Do they begin to eat me? Possibly doubtful, if my bacteria strains all prefer vegan foods (since that's all I eat)? -Which could explain why vegans have easier fasts (if we do?)

Pretty interesting topic.