Notice that human babies and many other animals start life on an "all juice diet" of just milk. They are on this all juice diet when development is quickest and most critical. Notice that human babies can go up to five years on mothers milk "juice" alone. So do the anti juicers think there is something wrong with this? Are they for taking babies to the dentist to give them dentures to make them eat only solid foods? Are they saying babies bloold sugar levels are never stable? Are they saying the milk "juice" should be mixed with at least psylium for good fiber?

Notice too that all foods should be chewed untill they are completely juice. A juicer saves the time of that chewing and makes foods perfectly asimable just like a baby drinking only milk.

elnatural_1

i consider milk a whole food, not a juice.

hmm thats a hard sell

personally I think juicing is a vital practice, That said, I would be hard pressed to convince someone it is a natural process to consume an extracted juice from a vegetable, especially in the quanitity often consumed.

I think its more usefull to think how entirely unnatural our bodies are and that
people might reap benefits from extracted juice because their entire lives and cellular makeup has been 'messing with what nature inteded'

I think if people focused less on what the ideal natural food for humans was and more on what their bodies needed they would be better off. and as a side note that if people preached less about what human beings origins are, that would also free up some intelectual energy to focus on the present.

Is this the most bogus argument I have ever read? Milk and juice are in no way related. And how is what supports babies relevant for adults?

Anaken, you make some good points there.

(I've nothing against jucing by the way, just lots against bogus arguments ;-)

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

I agree that milk is a whole food. Juice is a fractioned food. Fiber is an essential nutrient for optimum health. It gently sweeps through the digestive tract. What other animals juice their foods, throwing out the fiber?

If you enjoy juicing, though, in place of consuming less optimal things, and feel good doing it...by all means, go for it.

Are you all now claiming that milk is solid and not liquid?
Are you all now claiming that milk has lots of fiber?
Are you all claiming the equivalent of milk is impossible to be had by other juices?



ElNaturAl

elnatural_1

Milk is an appropriate foods for infants and toddlers, but not appropriate for people older than that. Are you saying the same of juice? That once we get teeth, juice is unnecessary?

Bryan
No, the exact opposite. If babies start life for up to the first five years on nothing but juice, then other juices, (not mothers milk) should be good at any time for the rest of our lives.

elnatural_1

Funky Rob, I had a real life "lol" when I read your comment, onnnly because you stated what I was thinking in a much more blunt way than I would have even considered.

Humans stop producing lactase at the age of 5, before that we can't chew..so we must drink liquids. We grow teeth, our throat tubes become strong, and we are able to eat whole foods!! Then we stop producing lactase and shouldn't drink the milk anymore. Along with that, we need other forms of nutrition as we grow, it would make sense that those forms of nutrition cannot be obtained (or at least could not..for a long time) through just liquid. Just having is a clue that they should be used!

I really don't think that babies drinking milk has much to do with humans drinking juice. Though it is quite a clever trick of ours to get such great nutrients into our bodies.
Humans = clever. :-D

Though, I can understand why some might not choose to juice, I just don't agree with their reasoning so far. :-)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2007 02:28PM by noelle.

elnatural_1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan
> No, the exact opposite. If babies start life for
> up to the first five years on nothing but juice,
> then other juices, (not mothers milk) should be
> good at any time for the rest of our lives.
>
> elnatural_1

stop it ! you're making me dizzy !

is this al, who rides a recumbent and posted here a while back?

fresh

If you are dizzy, then I recomend you not reading anything I write from here on out.

Yes, and I have a new used "All Juice Powered" recumbent as of last weekend. Very low with the seat 11" off the ground, front wheel drive, and very fast.

elnatural_1

I agree that juice is not a whole food, but I have to say I also get phenomenal results in terms of improved health, physical vitality, mental clarity, and emotional serenity every time I do a juice fast. There is just nothing like it. I sometimes refer to it as 'magic' because it is so powerful. Of course you can't live on juice, but I believe periodic juice fasting-- taking a break from eating solid food-- is a really good thing.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

I already stated I have my own issues with this premise, however

this idea that "fiber is a essential nutrient for optimal health" as a counter to juicing is almost as ridiculous.

juicing, because it lacks fiber , serves a purpose.

while you DO need fiber for 'optimal health' you do not need it to get the nutrients (and more imporantly the high 'dose' of alkalinity) from the extracted juice. Making this statement is similar to saying one needs a well balanced meal to get their daily nutrients.

As for animals juicing their foods, I do believe you can find many corollaries for this. Some animals 'wadge' greens (as do I on occasion) chewing and masticating till there is almost an unswallalowable chunk of fiber in the mouth that is discarded.

juicing is an optimal practice. I would say if you feel good NOT doing it that is fine, but to leave unfounded ideas about the 'superiority' of eating exclusivly whole foods to oneself as well unless you are talking purely about some fantasy world of ideal nutrition and not about real world health.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2007 05:30PM by anaken.

anaken Wrote:

> juicing is an optimal practice. I would say if you
> feel good NOT doing it that is fine, but to leave
> unfounded ideas about the 'superiority' of eating
> exclusivly whole foods to oneself as well unless
> you are talking purely about some fantasy world of
> ideal nutrition and not about real world health.

To someone who desires to juice for whatever reason, the idea that juicing is not necessary and further, not optimal, may indeed be a fantasy world. Because they have convinced themselves that juicing is optimal, superior or needed in some way. Or perhaps they just like it for no particular reason, want to keep doing it and need to find a way to justify it in their mind. That's fine if you feel that way. Although I still do not follow your logic. It makes no sense to me personally.

We are obviously coming from different world views and may never see eye to eye on this, which is fine. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else. Although I hope I will always be a learner and I never stop searching for truth in this chaotic life, so who knows. I won't say that I will never change my mind.

What I will say for now is that there are a growing number of people who are proving to me that this apparently far flung "ideology" that eating exclusively whole foods are far superior to eating fragmented foods are indeed, not only unfounded (quite the opposite), but perfectly doable and desirable in our "real world" health.

In fact, it is MORE doable because not everybody has money to buy expensive juicers or servings of green juice from the health food store every day. Not everybody has time to sit there and juice and clean up the mess. Even from a basic practicality standpoint, I don't see how juicing as a way of life is more doable in the real world than NOT juicing.

You may have a different ideology, fine. But that doesn't mean that someone else's extensive real life experience and research is "ridiculous" or to be blown off simply as a "fantasy world of ideal nutrition." Those are quite bold statements. How many years have you personally spent researching the benefits of juicing and helping others recover to perfect health using great amounts of juice?

My personal choice is to observe and follow those who have decades of experience behind their teachings, and those who lead a life of quiet simplicity and possess undeniable, admirable health and fitness to show for it. Because that is what I desire, too. Okay, I'm done... all this talk about juicing or not juicing is making me thirsty and I need some watermelon asap!

To each his own. Happy Sunday!

Sarah
[goingbananasblog.com]

I'm interested in understanding your position here, if you could enlighten me.

because you may very well be correct, but I don't know what you're basing it on.

scientific studies? personal experience? knowledge of nutrient assimilation comparisons between juicing, eating and blending?

anaken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hmm thats a hard sell
>
> personally I think juicing is a vital practice,


vital for everyone?


> I think its more usefull to think how entirely
> unnatural our bodies are and that
> people might reap benefits from extracted juice
> because their entire lives and cellular makeup has
> been 'messing with what nature inteded'

it's possible

let's assume that you are correct about "us" needing juicing.
that we need a certain amount of alkalinizing.

let's now compare it to blending.

why do you assume that blending does not provide that same sufficient amount ?

or to eating?

Hi Fresh,
I know your question is for Sarah, but I just want to share an idea here re. juicing v. blending. First let me say I understand your point-- blending may very well accomplish the same thing, and it gives you a whole, complete food with nutrients and fiber intact. I do a lot of blending, and it has a definite place in my healthy lifestyle, but when I want to experience a deeper cleansing combined with a spiritual connection and mental clarity, I do a juice fast, because my experience is that for these results, nothing can compare to juicing.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

kwan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Fresh,
> I know your question is for Sarah, but I just want
> to share an idea here re. juicing v. blending.
> First let me say I understand your point--
> blending may very well accomplish the same thing,
> and it gives you a whole, complete food with
> nutrients and fiber intact. I do a lot of
> blending, and it has a definite place in my
> healthy lifestyle, but when I want to experience a
> deeper cleansing combined with a spiritual
> connection and mental clarity, I do a juice fast,
> because my experience is that for these results,
> nothing can compare to juicing.

thanks for your perspective sharrhan....

i just listened to some music on your site and really enjoyed it.

another vollenweider fan, that's a rarity... :-)

el natural makes perfect sense

thanks el natural
good argument

ingenious
i see the correlation and the corollary

I agree that juicing presents a total pain in the ass in terms of cost, cleanup etc...this is always listed as a reason against the practice. even by Graham itself, as if it is some kind of rational one. In fact one needs to put that in as an argument because other than that the only other criticism that one could feasibly argue is that it is unnecessary (i'll try to prove otherwise but i'm not looking to convert anybody). all the other ones about increasing blood sugar, lack of an essential nutrient etc...can be shot down blindfolded. yet somehow that added expense/effort of a practice doesn't carry weight in terms of one's health, BUT that doesn't - mind you - carry over to buying the best quality food that one can afford or money spent on consultations and retreats.

I've been working on writing something for this very purpose. its actually very difficult because people are so sold on an idea of being on track to perfect health, and cite examples as their models, not taking into account many factors, and not honestly having an assessment of what that 'health' that person 'has' is to begin with.

sadly I think the only things I can say will create debate without really changing much. since people are already convinced of their experts and yet claim to be beyond the effects of gurus simply because they don't take supplements and live simple lives based on 'healthful living' (which I do support!)

It is my opinion that living a certain way because it is more natural, is oddly a philosophy no more natural the doing something artificial. any discussion about a food that is more optimal because it is more natural is really missing the point in a non-natural paradigm.

so here goes the explanation, made it as simple as I could. if you disagree, fine. I just think its the height of irresponsibility to suggest a practice is unecessary just because you now experience benefits without or because someone seems to be am image of health you aspire to that has refrained from such a practice (its certainly possible). if you choose it for yourself, fine, just don't chime in and say "whole foods are optimal, everything else is not ideal" like its the law of the universe (even though it is correct that if we did not have toxic genetics and did not have a previous diet of toxicity that such diet alone would indeed be adequate IMO).

Blending:

It is accepted by all camps that blending is inferior to whole foods, both nutritionally and because of its detriments. It may not be 'refined', but its like a mish mash of things, liquified, leads to laziness and consuming too quickly, is un-masticated (whether one chomps their jaws till kingdom come), contains poor food combinations or ok food combinations in strange proportions (so you get mango fiber and apple fiber and berry fiber and celery fiber all working in unison together for super nutrition?) or is simply too much food, too much fiber period (the 20 banana green smoothy)

Juicing:

as for it being fractionated, fractured, foreign, unnatural, thats in some ways what youre looking for with juicing

juicing, because it lacks fiber , serves a purpose for the body that was not raw vegan from birth raised by raw vegans from birth. Because we are not in this state, the body actually has a hard time figuring out how to handle this issue of toxicity, it, after all was never designed for such a thing (yet does have undeniable healing potential)

to change your health one needs to do more than eat healthy
changes need to begin inside-out at a cellular level by oxygenating and cleansing the system of toxins and other foreign elements. the systems we're talking about are the lymphatic system, digestive system, and cardiovascular system.

Raw, fresh vegetable juices - because of their extremely alkalinity are an ideal component in this effort. Fiber is an essential nutrient, but not essential to get the extremely necessary alkalizing force from the large quantity of vegetables (greens). while you DO need fiber for 'optimal health' you do not need it to get the nutrients from the extracted juice. Making this statement is similar to saying one needs a well balanced meal to get their daily nutrients. Our bodies being in the state assumed respond to a quart of alkaline hitting the cells like shaking a tree for the almonds. Only the almonds that fly off are irradiated already! the toxins then get released into the colon.

the molecular structure of juice is very similar to haemoglobin which moves oxygen through our blood. it helps to eliminate wastes, old or dead cells while building new tissues with the easily accessible nutrients from the juices, possibly even rebuilding blood cells and safely removing things like parasites and mold.

on top of that of course its simply way to get all the organic minerals such as calcium, silicon etc... that are absorbed easefully (yes it is important to also eat foods that contain these minerals) I agree with Graham's idea that MORE doesn't equate to BETTER or BEST, but the idea that nutrients don't get absorbed without fiber is contrary to experience. whole foods ARE optimal for nutrition. jucing isn't about getting 'more nutrition' although i'm sure people 'supplement' with them in this fashion

if you are eating whole fresh raw foods without a healing regimen you are simply just eating healthful foods, you are not cleansing on a cellular level of toxins. sounds ok right? however, If these newly loosened poisons do not exit the body once they've been awakened, they will actually begin to create great illness. NOT because one isn't getting adequate calories and enough protein, but because they are being consumed (from the inside out) by their own poisons which the newly integrated, powerfully cleansing foods have shaken loose. This is also where external cleansing comes in.

I know people who work with inviduals who have been on purely hygienic diets for 10+ years who, showing signs of illness, come to them as a last resort when their hygienic doctors fail them. they reluctantly start a juicing regimen, only to experience major toxicity and are in quite a quandry of back-healing that is NOT pretty. I'm not saying this will happen, I don't believe in fear and i'm not involved in any industry with anything to gain. I do believe people could circumvent such things by rigorous fasting and other practices, this is outside my experience and knowledge. The difference is, I would never question those practices as effective and their sucess certainly wouldn't make me feel insecure

if you have doubts, and are curious, start integrating jucing into your whole fresh raw foods lifestyle. I never really got into the wheatgrass thing but one thing someone mentioned about it that makes sence is if your body is ill, it will react strongly to the wheatgrass. same goes for vegetable juice. if you start feeling symptoms from the juice, your body is responding to the high dose of alkalinity. it will be a similar hit to your system as being on a 100% fresh raw foods diet. it would not be 'caused' by the juice.


my experience is that even though

- I eat a low fat raw vegan whole foods mostly mono-fruit diet with a large amount of fiberous greens daily

- I have not consumed anything even Hygienically toxic (garlic, salt, spices, etc... in some time) I practice every aspect of healthful living I can, spent almost 4 months recently (and continue when I can) getting as much rest as I desired, and exercise sometimes up to 2 hours a day, shuffling between body-weight and the gym.

if I do not keep up with the juicing (even though it is a total pain in the ass in terms of cost or cleanup and inconvenience) and my cleansing, my body tells me I am on the rode to poor health.

I spent alot of time on this, so please don't come back and grill me on how juice removes mold in the blood or whatever. it very well might not. i'm simply providing information, not truth, and the only thing I wish to come of this is that people leave elistist, unfounded ideas about the 'superiority' of eating whole foods exclusively as THE path to healing, to oneself.

I think juicing is probably not very natural if you look at it from the perspective of our natural diet back in the days when we still ate all raw before we discovered the delights of cooking.

But I am reading the Anastasia books right now and it struck me the other day how most of us were not as well nourished as we should have been by either not drinking our mother's milk at all or not for long enough and that raw juices and smoothies are a way for us to give ourselves a second chance by drinking "milk" from our mother, our planet earth.

A smoothie fills my stomach in an effortless way and is easy to digest but personally I feel more deeply nourished, kind of like at a cellular level, when I drink a green juice.

Love, francis



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2007 11:00PM by Frannie.

exactly, and especially since the mothers milk was not of a pure 'ideal' quality and the same goes for our gentic inheritance.

I forgot to add the obvious, that juice bypasses digestion.

Sparkler, I wish you would stop taking my opinons personally, i'm merely adding information to the equation. in this instance it was not you who 'tried to change someones mind' but how else can one interpret "whole foods are OPTIMAL, fiber is ESSENTAIL" etc... in a topic about juicing? seems pretty much like someone trying to change someones mind to me. is that something that is supportive? something from YOUR experience? or is that something that is comming from an expert/guru ?

and p.s.
I am in debt, hardcore



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2007 11:27PM by anaken.

you were not necessarily responding to me, nevertheless....

anaken Wrote:

>all the other
> ones about increasing blood sugar, lack of an
> essential nutrient etc...can be shot down
> blindfolded.

i will just say that it depends on what exactly you are juicing and how much you are drinking at one time.
and you have not made the blindfolded shooting down attempt.


> Blending:
>
> It is accepted by all camps that blending is
> inferior to whole foods, both nutritionally and
> because of its detriments.

this camp would not accept that.
what i do accept is that whole foods and blending both have their pros and cons.

the same goes for juicing.

>It may not be
> 'refined', but its like a mish mash of things,
> liquified, leads to laziness and consuming too
> quickly, is un-masticated (whether one chomps
> their jaws till kingdom come), contains poor food
> combinations or ok food combinations in strange
> proportions (so you get mango fiber and apple
> fiber and berry fiber and celery fiber all working
> in unison together for super nutrition?) or is
> simply too much food, too much fiber period (the
> 20 banana green smoothy)

you're just throwing stuff on the wall to try and make it stick.
i would agree that too many items blended is not very good, and so i don't do that.

too much food? that doesn't really mean much. it satisfies the needs of the body like juicing or whole foods, or it does not. this is not a negative attribute specific to blending.


>Because we are
> not in this state, the body actually has a hard
> time figuring out how to handle this issue of
> toxicity, it, after all was never designed for
> such a thing (yet does have undeniable healing
> potential)

"the body has a hard time figuring out" ?

this is a bit vague


> I agree with Graham's idea that MORE
> doesn't equate to BETTER or BEST, but the idea
> that nutrients don't get absorbed without fiber is
> contrary to experience.

I don't think he makes that claim


> if you are eating whole fresh raw foods without a
> healing regimen you are simply just eating
> healthful foods, you are not cleansing on a
> cellular level of toxins. sounds ok right?

It's not clear what you mean by healing regimen.
what you're saying above doesn't make sense to me and would need more clarification. sounds like you're saying that the body does not
cleanse itself if you are eating whole fresh raw foods.
with that i would certainly disagree.

then here below you say that the body is cleansing. so this is confusing.

> however, If these newly loosened poisons do not
> exit the body once they've been awakened, they
> will actually begin to create great illness. NOT
> because one isn't getting adequate calories and
> enough protein, but because they are being
> consumed (from the inside out) by their own
> poisons which the newly integrated, powerfully
> cleansing foods have shaken loose. This is also
> where external cleansing comes in.


> if you have doubts, and are curious, start
> integrating jucing into your whole fresh raw foods
> lifestyle. I never really got into the wheatgrass
> thing but one thing someone mentioned about it
> that makes sence is if your body is ill, it will
> react strongly to the wheatgrass.

I don't think so. the body will react to any strongly bitter food.
probably depends on how/where it's grown.

> same goes for
> vegetable juice. if you start feeling symptoms
> from the juice, your body is responding to the
> high dose of alkalinity. it will be a similar hit
> to your system as being on a 100% fresh raw foods
> diet. it would not be 'caused' by the juice.

see above.

ah, here's the crux of it. it usually comes down to personal experience.

> if I do not keep up with the juicing (even though
> it is a total pain in the ass in terms of cost or
> cleanup and inconvenience) and my cleansing, my
> body tells me I am on the rode to poor health.

you don't say what you mean by the above, so we have no clue what you're talking about. it could also be that you haven't been raw long enough. but i'm sure you've dismissed that particular possibility.

thanks for sharing.

Fresh

this is how I used to argue as a child. picking apart the way the other person argues as opposed to what they are actually saying.

I won't respond to all your conterpoints, I can say that I agree what I wrote is not free of problems in logic as it is not a manifesto to be honored.

did I emphasize the negative aspects of blending? yes of course, do people tend to fall into those problems because of avaliability of blending? in my opinion.

the too much food thing IS specific to blending if one can force themselves to consume more food then in a solid state, which is practiced.

if we are in agreement that juicing has pros as well as cons than we are in agreement.

all your other points are either nickpicking or false (my quote from graham was accurate) or meant to complicate the scenario (the comment of whether a food was bitter or fresh, substitute a juiced head of romaine and celery and my view still stands) As a side note I think Graham has lots of useful information about nutrition and performance, I find the blind faith to be a bit eerie.

as for my personal experience, i thought that might be helpful to see that I was practicing 'healthful living' and being open minded, I wasn't using it to strengthen my argument.

thanks for being condescending!

anaken Wrote:
>As a side note I think Graham has lots of
> useful information about nutrition and
> performance, I find the blind faith to be a bit
> eerie.

good point, perhaps some have blind faith in him, but you may be painting with a broad brush.

i admire that you use your own mind and seem objective

> as for my personal experience, i thought that
> might be helpful to see that I was practicing
> 'healthful living' and being open minded, I wasn't
> using it to strengthen my argument.

i wasn't claiming it was a bad thing. i understand that you may have taken it that way. i do the same; give strong weight to personal experience.
sometimes our analysis of our experience is valid and sometimes it's not. if can be difficult to determine causes sometimes.

>
> thanks for being condescending!

again, i didn't mean to be but i can understand why you would think that.

Anaken,

I wish you much health in your journey. I'm glad you've found a diet that is working optimally for you at this time. I enjoy discussions and usually learn a lot from them, but admit that at this particular point in this conversation I have nothing further to add since I'm not much of a juice drinker - so my experience (or lack of it) with juicing will not be helpful to anyone. Who knows, I may foray into juicing in the future if I feel the need for it, currently it just holds no appeal for me.

p,s, Don't worry, if I was taking your posts REALLY personally, you would have been able to tell, I promise.

Have a great week! I'm thinking of starting a current low fat high fruit thread if no one else does, so maybe we'll talk more there sometime.

Sarah
[goingbananasblog.com]

addendum

anaken,

you stated

"but the idea that nutrients don't get absorbed without fiber is contrary to experience"

implying that is graham's belief.

the above is stating (to me) that no nutrients are absorbed without the assistance of fiber.

can you show me that he believes this or clarify it?

don't you think we need to be careful when stating what others claim? otherwise it's a strawman.

what is "natural"?

there have been wars from time immemorial

were they "natural"?

people have been killing bisons and buffaloes then putting those corpses into their own guts

was that "natural"?

liquids are "natural" in the fact that they do the least amount of disturbance to the organs while infusing a maximum amount of nutrients


its natural for the body to want to rest
its natural for the body to digest with ease

Anaken, what do you mean when you say people have blind faith in Graham? I don't want to assume i know what you mean. My personal experience is that people listen to his advice and then have their own experience to see if it works for them, because oftentimes by the time you get to Doug, you've tried just about everything else that hasn't worked! So, I'm interested to hear what you mean when you refer to this blind faith to make sure I understand where you're coming from.

Love,
Uma

grammatical confusion

I didn't mean to imply this is his belief, in fact i'm sure it is not. I'm not sure what people imply when they make an argument that "jucing lacks fiber, fiber is an essential nutrient for health". as a statment it is totaly absurd. I could say water lacks fat, fat is an essential nutrient for health.

To clarify I think the statement that MORE doesn't equate to BETTER or BEST (which he did say in a interview) is a correct and profound statement, but for all intents and purposes anyone could have said it (in other words the paragraph has nothing to do with graham, i'm just acknoledging certain critical views as accurate along the way). the following sentence wasn't meant to imply anything other then nutrients are indeed absorded without fiber (obvious I know but helpful maybe for some?) and that jucing isn't about getting MORE of a nutrient. and when someone makes an argument that juicing is uncessary because you don't need to get more nutrients, there are plenty of nutrients in whole foods, I can only agree and say well that isn't the point at all even though, like the paragraph hints at: that the nutrients are often more assimlatable in juice form via the bypassing digestion, making the lack of fiber a necessary element not a detriment to health.

as for grouping you in with blind faith, i was not, only there is no doubt it is beyond prevalent

Sparkler: cool, i am into low fat, high fruit, if what I wrote doesn't strike you, I can't think of a reason for you to change your opinion.

as for anyone suggesting to someone asking questions about juicing, a whole foods only approach (for reasons that are tied to dogma and not rationality), I'll certainly still frown upon it.

Uma,

Graham has created a system (i'm using those words specifically) that trys to implement the most natural diet for a human being. in his words (paraphrase of course) a diet that functions for every human being regardless of location, health etc...that is not only the OPTIMAL sustaining diet for man but also the diet that will (along with other factors that he prescribes) be the absolute track to perfect health.

When someone makes a comment like "Fiber is an essential nutrient for optimum health...What other animals juice their foods, throwing out the fiber?" I think its pretty transparent where this kind of thinking is comming from. its comming from a mindset myopically focused on a natural paradigm.

sometimes when it comes to matters of health, and by health i'm not talking about an abstract concept, but the health of a 21st century human. talking about the ideal human 'anything' is in some sence not as relavent as what that human needs. Thats all i'm saying.

well that, and also that if someone is going to pull these 'concepts' that one a single person prescribes (or a movement like hygiene) and applies them as the ultimate truth (and doesn't do so in silence but tries to push those ideas on others without thoroughly examining the issue) I can only make comparison to faith.

on a lighter note, i like the diet, its fun and works for me nutritionally.