Hey David,

Hope you are well and well done on the blood test I suppose

It would be interesting if you had the results of some blood tests before you went raw, since if I remember right I think you said you had high blood pressure and borderline heart problems then.

Could be motivational for those people that have those kind of problems now, and for whom conventional medicine suggests drug treatments and a declining level of health as they grow older.

Cheers,
J

Ha! ha! Yes. I suppose I COULD find my doctor from 10 years ago...but I'm not that interested. Let's just say they were NOT normal...and were actually quite bad. Heh..heh.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Congrats on turning your health around!! Aren't so many better for it too!?

hello david.

i would be interested in the lab's or hippocrates interpretation or recommendations regarding the results.

Low BUN is an indicator of protein deficiency I have been told. Mine has normalized since eating more protein. But I guess if you don't feel deficient then who cares.

Probably more accurate to say indicator of low protein intake, which is not the same as protein deficiency. True protein deficiency is hard to separate from calorie deficiency and usually seen only in third world countries where the people are undergoing extreme hardship.

Hmmm....as I understand it...symptoms of protein deficiency include slow wound healing (don't have that).....edema (just my fat head).....lethargy or fatigue (definitely don't have those)...and reduced muscle mass (mine aint bad for 150 lbs, 5' 8"....but not as good as Fruitarian One! Ha! ha!). My personal opinion is that most Americans could stand to eat far less protein.....and not more. Heh..heh. I've been eating this way for many years...without the above. I am not suggesting folks do what I do...but rather incorporate more fresh fruits and vegetables into their diet on an ever-increasing lifetime basis...until they reach their permanent lifetime goals for diet.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

I heard there is no such thing as protein deficiency unless you are in places where you are literally starving to death

Suvi knows the score. Live a joyful life on a diet that you 100% have chosen (perhaps it is fresh fruits and vegetables) for 6 months and THEN see if you need protein, colonics or other procedures. In my opinion, you probably will not.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Protein deficiency has been observed and verified scientifically. Many have been cured following tests

BUN does is NOT an indicator of protein malnutrition...it is an indicator of Blood Urea Nitrogen. It is directly related to the amount of nitrogen (as a by-product of protein metabolism) that is being excreted through the urine. People that are eating a plant based diet usually have lower BUN values, compared to people that are eating a high (animal) protein diet, who usually have values within or above the normal range.

The lab test which determines if you are not recieving adequate protein through diet is called "Prealbumin". However, if you are eating plenty of calories (through fruits and/or vegetables) to meet your nutritional needs, you should never be deficient in protein.

Congrats on your lab tests, David! They are stunning, if you ask me!


much love,
m.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2008 04:07PM by m.

mANDINAH, IF THIS IS TRUE SHOW IT TO US, OR SHOW US PHOTOS, AND EXPLAIN IT TO US

Quote

Protein deficiency in developing countries

Protein deficiency is a serious cause of ill health and death in developing countries. Protein deficiency plays a part in the disease kwashiorkor. War, famine, overpopulation and other factors can increase rates of malnutrition and protein deficiency. Protein deficiency can lead to reduced intelligence or mental retardation, see deficiency in proteins, fats, carbohydrates.

In countries that suffer from widespread protein deficiency, food is generally full of plant fibers, which makes adequate energy and protein consumption very difficult. Symptoms of kwashiorkor include apathy, diarrhea, inactivity, failure to grow, flaky skin, fatty liver, and edema of the belly and legs. This edema is explained by the normal functioning of proteins in fluid balance and lipoprotein transport. [7] [8]

Dr. Latham, director of the Program in International Nutrition at Cornell University claims that malnutrition is a frequent cause of death and disease in third world countries. Protein-energy malnutrition (PEM) affects 500 million people and kills 10 million annually. In severe cases white blood cell numbers decline and the ability of leukocytes to fight infection decreases. [9]

[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2008 06:05PM by madinah.

Madinah,

You are absolutely correct about Kwashiorkor and protein malnutrition which happens in DEVELOPING countries where people DO NOT recieve adequate nutrition. Not only are they STARVING by not eating enough calories, but they are only consuming plant foods such as white rice and various other (minimal) plant foods. There is no variety or abundance of plant foods to meet their calorie needs or fill their amino acid pool to create proteins.

Protein calorie malnutrition does not apply to Americans who are eating a variety of plant foods to meet their caloric needs. I have been working in the medical field for over 10 years and have NEVER seen protein calorie malnutrition except in cases where people were anorexic or not eating enough CALORIES in general.

I hope this helps,
m.

Correct m about developing countries. There is plenty of protein source in developed countries but the problem in raw food community is that some for dietary purity choose to feed on few food items such as 10 tangerines for lunch. This may make you feel good and it is very cleansing but in the long run it will lead to protein deficiency as in developing countries.

Madinah,

as i said,you must meet your CALORIE REQUIREMENTS to meet your protein requirements. If you are eating a VARIETY of plant foods and meeting your caloric requirements, you will not become deficient in protein.

The World Health Organization states that you only need 5% of your calories from dietary protein to maintain your amino acid pool. The additional protein we use is from an internal mechanism called "protein recycling". On top of the dietary protein we consume, we re-use digestive enzymes made by our body + epithelial cells from our digestive tract to add to our amino acid pool.

Here are some percentages of protein that comes from plant foods:

Fruits (on average): 5% calories from protein
Nuts/Seeds (on average): 15% calories from protein
Vegetables (on average): 25% calories from protein

A raw foodist who consumes a variety of fruits and/or vegetables, who meets his/her caloric needs, should never have a problem meeting protein needs.

I hope this helps!

m.

Correct which implies that some fruitarians if not careful may not meet the requirement, 10 tangerines for lunch may not do it.

Madinah: Whatever works for you I support you 100%.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

I do not live in a developing country and in fact was protein deficient. I ate a huge amount of calories - Over 5K many days - But all of my food came from ice cream, cookies, muffins, non-foods....

I in no way am saying that fruitarian diets cause protein deficiency.

But to state that protein deficiency doesn't occur in this country is incorrect. I live in Boulder, am working with the three most talented, knowledgeable, healthy, wise doctors, and they all categorically stated I was protein deficient. I ignored them, thinking that I had the answers, until recently. Since adding protein, the edema in my body has disappeared, I have clearer skin and clearer thinking, and feel much more grounded and centered.

I, again, am not poopooing the fruit diet. It clearly works miracles for some people. I just get frustrated reading categorical statements on this board that aim to dismiss anything that goes against this perceived way of living. When things are painted so black and white it comes off negatively. And I am here to learn. And to share. Rather than "You're wrong. I am right." Can't it be "Hmm. That's an interesting thought. Perhaps I could entertain the possibility."





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2008 01:22AM by dancerinthenight.

One day I ate nothing but twenty oranges and got 25g protein. :O

This was during a mono-orange cleanse, but when scoping out my numbers on fitday, I thought it was amusing that I could pick a random fruit to mono-eat and STILL get 90% of my protein needs for the day. =)

Generally, a fruit only has maybe 1-3g of protein. But if you eat enough of those fruits to meet your calorie requirements, USUALLY the numbers will add up. This depends on variety, and a bunch of other factors as well. It may not work for every single person at every single point in time, but it can be done, and is something a lot of people find themselves gravitating toward.

And if I eat ten or twenty tangerines tomorrow, I think I'll be okay. I just ate two Easy Sprouters full of sprouts this afternoon. There's a long term context to consider...

Don't get all logical on us.

[en.wikipedia.org]

[www.merriam-webster.com]

[www.merriam-webster.com]

The Internet is a make believe world with make believe people inventing who they are and what they supposedly eat and how that supposedly effects them. Facts don't matter here. This is make believe.

As the Talking Heads said:

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape


(My apologies to all those who are humor deficient.)

How do you look at a fruit and tell how much protien is in it?....that is a special gift indeed or better still take that same fruit and type in the name of that fruit in some nutrition sites search engine to see the exact nutrients in that fruit....that's very trusting indeed!

Does fitday take into account the storage, ripeness or freshness of the fruit?...mmmm...I wonder?

I also wonder if the animals in the wild that sometimes go days without food worry about getting enough protien/calories?

We weren't always raw and to think that as soon as you go raw all your health issues are resolved is not a true repesentation of the lifestyle, a lot more goes into your health than food.

Juss ma ten cents!

Richard

Animals in the wild eat many food items per day and when they stop eating it is for period fasting which is very healthy. They eat bugs, flowers, greens, nuts, seeds. The 10 tangerines harvested weeks before do not compare with something fresh and still growing and one more thing, the human body is very big.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2008 02:42AM by madinah.

I know this.... not one single cell in any organism is made from what it eats. Studies have been done with a babies, where they are weighed then sealed in a room. Then all the food is measured that goes in the baby, as well as all the waste that goes out of the baby. The food given to the baby weighs the same as the waste that goes out.

The same thing has been done with plants... where a tree is planted in a pot where the soil was pre-cooked and weighed along with the planter. Then sealed in a room and had all the moisture measured that was given the plant. In the end the plant gained 50 lbs, but the soil only diminished a couple of ounces... probably flew away as dust. And the water that went in also came out.

So our entire bodies are built from something other than the food we eat. And food appears to be for energy delivery from the statements made above. So if there is a protein deficiency... it would be my opinion that the food does not have the correct energy or vibration within it to deliver the amount of energy the body needs. Or the body has something not up to par...or is doing some sort of detox.

I agree with F1...and Context...of course. In my opinion, it is not that protein deficiency NEVER occurs. It most certainly does. But the sort of folks that would be logging on and checking these posts? Most likely not. And further, my opinion is that if they are eating all fruit and 100% comfortable with that....that protein deficiency (in my experience) is the least of their worries.

Example: In my life, I try to be very cautious and keep up the maintenance in my car......and drive with awareness.....as it is FAR MORE LIKELY that I'm going to be hurt in a car than any other way (although I have no intention of this). Similarly, it is my opinion that one should live their lifestyle in a way that maximizes the good opportunities/probabilities that are out there......while being aware of the greatest possibilities for harm. In my mind, some one should be FAR more concerned and aware of the dangers in driving....or eating cooked/processed foods.....then worrying about much more rare problems...that don't often occur in affluent western lifestyles.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

right, because it's ok to seal a baby into a room alone and people would actually do that. wtf is going on here? this is getting ridiculous.

david, your test results so far are a glowing testament to your radiant good health! as i expected, of course.

i would really appreciate another thread on protein deficiency as i find it an interesting topic but it's highjacking this thread in a somewhat unpleasant way.

We all need to thank David to be open and willing to share his test results but the results are not a "glowing testament to radiant good health" for somebody who has been raw for many years, they should be near perfect. I get mine done every year and they are near perfect and I thought that what it should be for most people on raw without major prior issues. Are we just trying to be nice to David? I do not even think he cares. The results are out of range.

Coco is correct in that we need another thread on protein deficiency dedicated to that topic alone..As for my personal knowledge on protein deficiency, it pales in comparison to many of the others here that have already commented on the subject..

As someone who served in the U.S. Army as a medic, with two separate tours of 3 months each at Madigan Army Hospital at Ft. Lewis, Washington; I have observed humans reacting quickly to several different mineral imbalances..Usually caused by an overdose of a medication that caused the body to react unfavorably to the extremely high concentration of mineral contained in the particular medication..

The reverse is virtually always true..When a person enters the hospital to be treated for a mineral, vitamin, or enzyme deficiency (any deficiency really); it is not because they stopped taking their vitamins, or eating a particular food, or foods, yesterday..Or the day before..Or for the past week, or month..

It usually takes a long period of time, measured in 6 months or more (sometimes, many times years), for the human body to show the effects of a deficiency..And there are always other underlying factors that are contributing to the severity of the deficiency..Some major, & some minor..

All raw foodists are constantly being confronted by people, some benevolent, some antagonistic that throw protein deficiency into our faces..As either a legitimate question, or as a reason why we should not be raw..

My personal opinion, which mirrors many of the others here on the forum; is that regardless of how poor your health is while eating SAD foods; eating raw foods can only improve your health..Just how poorly your health is when the process begins, your genetic makeup, your willingness to exercise, your mental health, & many other factors; is going to determine the ultimate state of your body's & mind's transformation..And, this process will in all likelihood take approximately 10-15 years before the body even begins to approach a steady-state plateau..

It's obvious that wild animals that are not carnivores have no protein deficiencies unless environmental factors are preventing the animal from eating it's regular diet..And the reverse is true in that carnivores that consume no vegetation do not suffer from any imbalances from a lack of minerals & enzymes that are contained in plants..

Human dentition was never intended to chew & consume raw meat..Our bodies are not designed to chase down, catch, kill, consume, & digest animal flesh, bones, hide, or hair..Worrying about protein deficiency seems to me like worrying about whether or not an asteroid is going to fall down on my head & kill me..Since our bodies are not designed to be carnivores, it seems to me that eating a diverse diet of fruits & vegetables will provide all the nutrition that we need..Whether one eats all fruits, all vegetables, or a combination of the two..If one eats seeds & nuts, then the question of protein becomes irrelevant..

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread, I think that DZM's blood work tests are showing that a fruitarian can be as healthy as any other vegetarian, or vegan..

Bruce

As for the baby thing... lol, that was done well over a hundred years ago. And I am just citing it as an example. Just like the only reason we know exactly how much electricity it takes to hurt the heart and kill some one is because the nazis did the experiments during world war 2. I am not saying its justified, because like you coco I dont think is humane. But atleast we now have the information.

But like The Fruitarian One says... How do we know the quality of fruit the person has been eating. There is something called the BRIX count. The higher the BRIX the better the fruit. One apple picked right of the tree found wild in nature can have a 18 plus brix count. Where as you can find an apple local grocery store with a brix count of 5 or less. All fruit is not equal. This is why eating fruits in season is so important. And the closer it is the better. It might explain why people living in cold climates are poorer fruitarians... the quality of produce is just not there.

And what variety of fruit did they eat... how toxic are they... how long have they been on the sad diet... what health complications do they have...

I also know this... those who eat a 100% raw food diet have the highest blood oxygen counts. They have virtually no pathogens or sickness in thier blood streams. The same cannot be said of those who eat cooked food, especially meat... they are full of parasites.

My belief is that fruits are meant for people to eat as energy... and if this was 100 years ago our fruits would be way higher quality and being a fruitarian would be way easier. And all other plants are there to keep balanced. IE cayenne for circulation, garlic for infection and whatnot. The same is for spinach and lettuce... if there is an imbalance that the fruit we eat cannot help us with, the plants and herbs will help us.

So for those of us who eat raw, in colder climates with poorer produce... eat a variety of fruit, use more veggies and a variety of them, and herbs to compensate. I dont think it will hurt any, and its better to be educated then
hurt yourself.

The Brix count of any plant, fruit or vegetable, is the single most important value in determining the nutritive value that can be derived from the plant by eating it..The higher the Brix value, the better..Context is absolutely correct in that most modern hybrid fruits & vegetables that are in grocery stores lack the Brix content of the same plant that is picked at the height of freshness & ripeness in your back yard & consumed immediately..An heirloom plant that is adapted to local growing conditions, and grown organically in a soil that is high in humus will almost always out score a hybrid plant of the same species that is grown directly along side of the heirloom variety..

For those interested in Brix values see:
[en.wikipedia.org]

For the tools to determine the Brix values of your plants see:
The sap extractor-- [www.groworganic.com]
The refractometer-- [www.groworganic.com]

For an online book on using a Brix refractometer to test & evaluate a plant's nutritive quality see:
[www.tandjenterprises.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2008 07:29PM by baltochef.