Also, I agree with F1 that it would make more sense for a neutral party to perform the testing, if possible.

One thing about modern scientific practices - its OK to throw out data points that don't agree with your thesis to prove your point. A man of integrity would not allow such a practice, as they would rather be proven wrong than to be dishonest.

If I had made this mistake and my integrity were in question, I would arrange for David to go to a local clinic in his own neighborhood in his own city, and arrange for that clinic to deliver the blood to the lab, and arrange for the test results to come back both to David and to myself, so there would be no doubt of the authenticity.

learning to fly wrote:
"I think that what the Hippocrates Institute does is fantastic for people, however Brian Clement has a less-than-perfect reputation for honesty and integrity."

Do you have any direct experience with Brian Clement that has soured you toward him?

Lee

[www.dhamma.org]

brian, that's a great suggestion. i wonder if it's possible to do it that way. what do you think DZM?

i do have direct expereince with brian clement and i have to say that opposite. he has shown that he is more than willing in the past to admit a mistake, like with rejuvelac which they no longer use at hippocrates. they test and retest everything that they do so as to constantly improve their methods, i think that is part of what's happening with asking fruitarians to come forward for testing. i think they expect to find certain results but i believe they would all re-examine their beliefs if tests came back other than expected. i think he and the institute have a great deal of integrity in fact.

Thanks, Coco!

A lot of primates (esp. our ancestors) were largely--but not exclusively--fruitarian.

Not a direct or indirect comment about Dave:

Using people who self report their food intake is problematic.

For example, you have people who who are actively attempting to capitalize on their supposed diets all over the internet. Some who just like to brag, have big egos, and no real integrity once you take a second look at them and their supposed adherence to whatever pure diet they are on.

Hardly material for a double-blind, peer reviewed, publishable scientific study.

Maybe Clement is doing the best he can. Maybe not. I don't know what he's up to... I just know that many people on the Internet are not what they seem... or, are not what they say they eat. :\


Lee

[www.dhamma.org]

Good point Lee, too many other variables kinda make it a pointless challenge Brian put out there. Too bad he doesn't put a serious thought out approach to his high fruit accusations and show us the alternatives he proposes or something other than his "word" it's not good. Kinda weird all around if you ask me.

Hi Lee,

First of all, I do recognize that BC is doing a tremendous amount of good in the world and that he is an asset to the raw foods community.

That said, here is what I am mainly basing what I wrote on:

1) BC reportedly "took" the Hippocrates Institute from Ann Wigmore in an underhanded way. I have heard this from multiple sources.

2) In a story on the Hippocrates Institute that I read years ago in a weekly Florida paper, the reporter attended a Clement lecture where BC stated that he had been a student at the University of Massachusetts (IIRC it was either Amherst or Boston). The reporter did some basic fact-checking and contacted the university, which told him that they had no record of Brian Clement ever having been a student there.

When the reporter questioned BC about this, Clement said that it must be a mistake and that he would look into it with the registrar's office. However, Clement never got back to the reporter before press time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2008 03:52PM by learningtofly.

learning to fly, thanks for being specific. I appreciate it. I didn't know these things and appreciate your filling me in on specifically what you know.

I guess, in the end, regardless of the celebrities, the researchers, the self-appointed spokesmen, the paid shills, and the earnestly sincere, we all have to find our own way.

I'm not convinced that there is ONE right way to eat. I think if more people felt this way they would look within to find what is right for them -- as difficult as that can be -- instead of gathering around self-anointed gurus or even truly respectable elders (and paying good money that they could spend on organic food to sit at their feet). LOL.

That said, I've benefited from the work of some who have come before me. I'm willing to listen. But I don't think this is a religion with required adherence to any dietary paradigm. For example, for me, right now, a combination of 80/10/10 and the work of David Klein is working for my body -- which has had a different journey than anyone else's body...

I'm going to keep reading, keep listening, and keep trying to find what works for me, for now.

Most of those (not all, just most) who I have found willing to puff up their egos in the name of raw/vegan foods are not worth admiring or paying money to, let alone paying attention to.

And many of those people, are not honest about what they eat anyway and twist the truth to fit their ego-driven purpose.

I'm here to take it all in, and figure what works for me, for now. Even if the few whose words I have always found to be sincere recommend something, I have to assess whether it is right for me and not just for them or for a lot of other people.

Thanks again.


Lee

[www.dhamma.org]

ltf is this hearsay or have these various sources got any proof?
i happen to have personally read anne wigmore's correspondence from that time, it was given to me by another well known raw fooder who had me document it all for his own purposes. i am not going to disclose all that it contained, only reiterate that i believe BC to have a very high level of integrity. anne and brian had a parting of ways over how the institute should be run, he moved to florida and opened another institute with the hippocrates name. he did not take anne's facility from her and he did nothing immoral or illegal as far as i know. i stand by him, without his effort hippocrates would be ancient history.

Hey coco,

What I heard was more hearsay than fact, and perhaps was fed by what you describe as BC and AW's parting of ways. Do you know for sure if she gave him permission to use the Hippocrates name?

As for #2, do you think that was indeed a mistake in the university registrar's records?

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I had made this mistake and my integrity were
> in question, I would arrange for David to go to a
> local clinic in his own neighborhood in his own
> city, and arrange for that clinic to deliver the
> blood to the lab, and arrange for the test results
> to come back both to David and to myself, so there
> would be no doubt of the authenticity.

thank you. activeinternet, you listening?

ltf, i don't know about the uni thing but these things happen, reporters are notorious for misquoting. who knows, it could be a simple mistake or something else but it seems like a very small thing to me overall.
as for the name, i don't have a definate answer to that either. i do know that brian had worked there, run the institute for many years and put a lot of heart and soul into it. i think he had a different vision for where it should go and left to make that happen. as for taking the name, that name does not belong to anyone, i could open something with it tomorrow if i wanted to. for sure it seems to have been a contenscious thing but that often happens when business partners "break up". again, seems like a small thing overall that's been blown out of proportion over the years. i KNOW that there are some raw food biggies who like to be on top of the heap and stir up ugly rumours about others. take it all with a grain of salt i say.

i DOUBT VERY HIGHLY you could open up something with that name anymore. i am sure dr. c took steps to secure the rights, you know, after...

do you? i don't. it's not like bally's or super fitness or the ymca. i am pretty sure that i could open a juice bar or health food store or drug store for that matter and call is hippocrate's. perhaps not the exact wording that brian's place uses or the one in puerto rico but darn close enough! take lush for example, that is the name of that stinky "natural" body care store. betcha i could open lush boutique, lush bar, lush whatever and they couldn't say boo about it, not even if i was selling similar products.

regardless, at a certain point i think enough of the responsibility for the institute had been signed over to brian that he had full legal rights to open up in florida under that name. if anne didn't agree it would have been too late at that point to take away his ability to do so and really, why bother? open up and run your own shop if you don't want to work with me anymore. sounds like a plain old business agreement/disagreement to me. it has nothing to do with the institute today, this test, or anything else really. using it to speak to brian's integrity is a bit out there too, remember that this all happened years and years ago and is all just a bunch of hearsay anyhow as no one knows the details. i only have the knowledge of a handful of letters from one party's perspective and even with that it didn't look all that rotten to me.

i promise i can't go open a computer store called "apple". and i promise you can't open a "lush" anything and sell body products. well, you can open it, but if they caught wind of it and/or perceived you as a threat, they could take you to court and make you change the name, EASY.

now that's troubling. how can they own the word "lush"? that's just crazy!
then again, monsanto is trying to own "corn" so... i suppose anything is possible.

Information on trademark searching:

[www.uspto.gov]


Trademark searching:

[tess2.uspto.gov]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2008 09:04PM by Lee_123.

You know, conventional plasma lipid and other panel tests are expensive enough, but these high falutin ones are even more expensive.

They were probably trying to save a lot of money, it doesn't sound too sinister to me. Personally I see no reason why DZM needs such testing, he looks very healthy and his diet is excellent except for the B12 thing which is very easy to correct at this poit.

Lee_123 wrote:

> learning to fly wrote:
> "I think that what the Hippocrates Institute does is
> fantastic for people, however Brian Clement has a
> less-than-perfect reputation for honesty and integrity."

> Do you have any direct experience with Brian Clement>
> that has soured you toward him?

> Lee

Lee_123,

At this point, anyone who watched the Brian Clements video and has been reading this thread has some direct experience with Brian and his integrity. Brian made a proposal on the internet on the YouTube video, and David entered into an agreement with Brian by volunteering his time and energy to travel to Hippocrates to get this blood tested, and to have his results published where ever Brian desires with Brian's comment attached to the results. David met his part of the agreement and kept his word and is in integrity. So far, Brian has not met his part of the agreement is currently out of integrity.

So anyone who observed this agreement now has first hand experience with Brian being out of integrity, This doesn't mean that previous stories about Brian being out of integrity are true, but it does lend credibility to them.

And it is possible for Brian to clean up the mess he made. Not by making David make another trip out of his way to the Hippocrates center, but by making it very easy for David to get a new blood test. Making it difficult for David to get a new blood test will make us wonder why, and if David is unable to do the second test because of scheduling or other personal reasons, Brian will just say that the subject did not comply and none of this was his fault. Except he is already out of integrity (he did not keep his part of the agreement and he was not his word), and the burden or onus is on him (and not David) to correct the situation.

In the 90's my parents went to see Ann Wigmore in Boston. My father observed that Dr Ann was greatly distressed by a colegue who "took over" a part of her business. It was explained to my father by Dr Ann that her interest was to inform the public of the health benifits of raw foods and attempt to create low cost alternatives for people to be able to provide for themselves wholesome home grown sprouts, wheatgrass juice and rejuvelac. It was my understanding that Dr Ann was less interested in monitary gain but more interested in a genuine concern for the welbeing of people. She cared for people and did not want her Institute to be only concerned with money. All the things that make up the institute in florida are things that were created by Dr Ann. What does that tell you?

Of course I agree with F1 and Bryan...and appreciate everyone's support...as always. It's really not a big thing. I CERTAINLY wouldn't write anything into the whole lab tests thing. That sort of mix up occurs all the time. It would have been nice to have those results to share...you know? Not so much for myself....but it may put some one else's mind at ease. In any event: having chosen/choosing my dreams and passions....and pursuing them......its all good.

-For my part, Dr. Clement struck me as a man of great integrity and his endeavors certainly have all my support.

-It is only those that have not chosen their dreams and pursued them with joy.....that can experience any true suffering.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

The truth about the blood test...
David I will call you today..


From: rich@
To: davidzanemason@
Subject: Checking in...
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:09:32 -0400
Hi Dave,
Hope you are well. We hit a snag with the blood test. The nurse sent it out to the wrong lab, and gave you a standard test. We have two choices.. you are welcome to spend the day here at Hippocrates again, or I can find the nearest lab to your house that offers the spectraCell. Let me know and we will arrange this as soon as your schedule permits. IF you send me a mailing address, I will have Hippocrates drop it the mail.

Its embarrassing that this happened, as everyone wants the test results. But, as you know that is life….

The final week of the health educators is next week and Brian is lecturing to them on both Monday and Tuesday from 2 until 5 pm. I will get the blood test dates if you opt to come down. Otherwise, when I get your address, I’ll give you several options where we can get the test done and they will send it direct to spectraCell.
Regards,
Richard

________________________
From: David Mason [mailto:davidzanemason@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:48 AM
To: Richard Sarta
Subject: RE: Checking in...

Richard:

Good morning my friend! I hope that things are well on your end. That is disapointing...but I know these things happen. The easiest thing for me to do would just be to drop by again. I WILL be heading down that way the weekend of the 18th......and I could come by then. Just let me know what you think. I'm flying to Washington DC this weekend for the Cherry Blossom Festival...but I'll be back next Tuesday (and then coming down to Miami the following weekend for my Birthday...heh...heh.

Of course, my address and contact information is:
(deleted)

-Just let me know.

-David Z.

awesome, i hope it works out and we all get to see these results.

lee, i would love your help looking over that site if you have the time and are willing. it seems to be an awful lot of information!

pampam, what you say is what i read in the letters. i recall that ann's place was on the verge of financial trouble, that it would not survive without some monetary income. she didn't want to deviate from her path of offering low cost info and services but there needed to be some way to finance the whole thing. there was a disagreement about how to keep things going and that's how the other institute came to be. i imagine that it is a costly place to run as it certainly is a pricey place to visit

Thank-you, coco for validating what I said here. I am surprised this is still brought up, it is a very old issue. I am sure Dr ann would have eventually forgiven the transgression against her as others should

Update: I've got the preliminary basic lab results back from Hippocrates. Lord knows I'm not a physician....so I won't jump to conclusions...but only a few things jumped off the page as being noteworthy. Note: I'll simply scan the results and post the link to the scans on Flickr.

1) Blood glucose was low at 50. Note: I did not fast or alter my diet...and drank quite a bit of fresh Orange Juice that morning. Heh....heh.

2) Blood LDL levels (bad cholesterol) is low - at 43.

3) Direct Bilirubin is high at .28.

4) Calcium is normal at 9.08.

5) Total protein is quite normal at 7.0.

6) BUN is low at 4.

7) Carbon dioxide was slightly elevated at 33.

8) Hemoglobin & Hematocrit are a little low...at 12.9 & 38.2...respectively.

9) Atypcial Lymph was a little high at 4.6.

-All other results were normal. I'll review them a little closer later. In the mean time, Rich is trying to set up having the more detailed test performed....at a location that is convenient for me. I'll update.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

David

Did your results get back yet? If not when?

thanks

elnatural

Posted above El.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

>Hemoglobin & Hematocrit are a little low...at 12.9 & 38.2...respectively.

This is not unexpected given your lack of greens. It's the only thing that jumped out at me. The atypical lymph might be an infection of some sort. I would not be too concerned about the bilirubin, it's hard to define a good reference range.

Congrats on the glucose and ldl!